Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: College foreign language classes
Are they an efficient method of teaching a student a foreign language? If they're anything like the classes offered in High School, then they're probably not. Most kids here take two years of a foreign language in high school, and they don't learn a damn thing. Can one, and does one usually learn a language at an advanced level, given they've taken several classes of it in college? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Depends on you as a student, and how hard you try. I think intermediate Spanish at NMSU was basically an immersion class -- nothing was ever in English. _________________ An apple a day....
I think that if anyone starts completely from scratch when it comes to a foreign language at a relatively advanced age, he would have a mountain to scale.
Are you planning to do Spanish classes, Porthos? If so, you'd probably take to them like a duck to water. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I was thinking French or German, with perhaps a couple of Spanish classes to take me to a fluent level. I'm already at the advanced level in Spanish, although I have not taken any classes in it. But I would still like to become natively fluent.
I would be learning French and German from scratch, but I already know a bit of French, and I can actually read and comprehend a great deal of French, although when spoken, I hardly understand a word.
And other than syntax and grammar, German seems like a pretty easy language for me, compared to say, Russian. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I think that you would find german *much* easier because it's in the same group with english. french you would find easy as well because of the similarities with english and especially spanish. Russian probably would be the most difficult. of course "easy" i mean in comparaison, as to learn a language is an enormous task.
The visitors of the german threads here are very nice, so for practise your german you can go to them. If you will have questions, they would answer them (icke and Tiorthan would do this). German grammar i find complicated because of the cases, as in latin and russian etc.. french hasn't cases, so to avoid them you can chose french. The simplest foreign language I've learned is dutch, but it's the most useless one also.
In truth, I think that Afrikaans is probably the 'easiest' relatively large language for a native English speaker to learn — so excluding languages like Scots, Frisian and Low Saxon, which wouldn't necessarily be 'easier' for native English speakers to learn anyway.
If you're interested, have a look at www.afrikaans.us — it's amazing.
Porthos wrote:
And other than syntax and grammar, German seems like a pretty easy language for me, compared to say, Russian.
German syntax and grammar is not 'difficult' as such — basically, you learn the rules and then apply them, whereas French is more often not like that.
A lot of structures are very similar to English, actually. For example:
I hang my jacket up — ich hänge meine Jacke auf
The other 'easy' aspect of German is that Germans and other German speakers generally speak rather 'directly' — you state simply what you mean (to a large extent like in English, actually). I find that the opposite tends to be the case in French.
<<In truth, I think that Afrikaans is probably the 'easiest' relatively large language for a native English speaker to learn — so excluding languages like Scots, Frisian and Low Saxon, which wouldn't necessarily be 'easier' for native English speakers to learn anyway. >>
You must not forget Benjamin, that I've been speaking Spanish (albeit not at a native level) my whole life, so Romance languages are actually much easier for me to learn than Germanic ones.
And if we include minority languaes like Occitan, Galcian, and Low Saxon, then they'd be up there as well. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I see a difference though between finding a language 'easy' to understand and finding a language 'easy' to learn. For example, although I might be able to understand Scots reasonably well, that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be equally easy for me to learn to speak it on a near-native level.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that French may not necessarily be easier for you to actually learn to use actively than, say, Afrikaans (or even Dutch, German, Swedish etc.) — even if you understand more written French than the written forms of those other languages.
As for language classes in general, I have nothing against them. I've been learning French at school for the past eight years, since I was 10, and I'd describe myself as semi-fluent in French because of it.
I see a difference though between finding a language 'easy' to understand and finding a language 'easy' to learn.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Benjamin.
Porthos:
I was under the impression that you plan to do a degree in a business-related subject. How do foreign languages factor in the grand scheme of things?
As for language learning, I always feel that one either learns something well and goes on to master it, or not attempt to try it at all. So I wish you all the best if you plan to start from scratch - I dare say it would take years of hard work to be anywhere near native competence, but the journey would definitely be enlightening and satisfying. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I'm with you, Porth -- I think the Romance languages would be a lot easier to learn than the germanic ones. Those things scare me -- and I used to speak German!
There are so many cognates between English and Romance languages, and for whatever reason, they just seem to jump out at me more than the germanic ones. Don't know why. Maybe it's because I took French and Spanish in high school. _________________ An apple a day....
I'm with you, Porth -- I think the Romance languages would be a lot easier to learn than the germanic ones. Those things scare me -- and I used to speak German!
There are so many cognates between English and Romance languages, and for whatever reason, they just seem to jump out at me more than the germanic ones. Don't know why. Maybe it's because I took French and Spanish in high school.
Exactly. Uriel, I've decided that from now, you shall be my personal spokesperson, being that we always seem to agree on everything. Shall we discuss salary and benefits at this point? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Most of english-speaker who don't speak some other languages tell that they find english to have more similarities with the romance languages, epsecially french, spanish and italian. But I think that they're wrong. They look to some vocabulary, spelled nearly the same and feel that this is familiar, without to look to the structures, what in english are very particluarly close with dutch and german as well.
Dutch and german have another way to spell, so this would *initially* make those cognates to be not very evident, but after you will learn the orthography, you will see the incredible similarities of syntax etc....and vocabulary.
I agree, that english is the germanic language the most similar with romance languages (of those germanic ones I know, so I don't include scots as I don't know it).
for me, spanish feel like the most natural language of the ones I'm learning, and I expect that for english-speaker this would be afrikaans / dutch possibly german. I think that english-speakesr don't like to admit that their language is germanic, and would prefer it to be romance. I don't understand this at all, and I like the germanic languages!!!! It's in the fashion to prefer the elegant, sophisticated romance ones, but I havn't such interest in fashion when it's so stupid as this. I find as well, that the romance languages have more elegance, but we're all very subjectively judging this and it can't be another way - only a person bilingual all their live in a romance & germanic language is able to be more objective I suppose.
Anyway, all these languages are closely related , so Porhtos wouldn't have so much work for learn them as for example hungarian.
i completely agree with Benjamin. But..
Quote:
The other 'easy' aspect of German is that Germans and other German speakers generally speak rather 'directly' — you state simply what you mean (to a large extent like in English, actually). I find that the opposite tends to be the case in French.
Seriously though, if you learn another Germanic language even for a few weeks, you will realise very quickly why English is a Germanic language, and it will become completely obvious that English is infinitely more similar to Dutch than to French (for example).
When I was in Germany last year doing an intensive language course, I remember the point when I suddenly realised that what people there were speaking wasn't really a 'foreign language' at all — but rather a bizarre version of English with various vowel and consonant shifts, and slightly different grammar.
Compare, for example, book and CD packages for learning Dutch to those for learning Spanish. In the Dutch ones, right from the beginning it's usually listen and see how much you can understand, and they then go on to teach you more Dutch throughout the tape by a kind of assimilation process. On the other hand, this tends not to be the case for Spanish ones, for example.
I think that english-speakesr don't like to admit that their language is germanic, and would prefer it to be romance.
That does seem to be the case with many native English speakers, yes. I think it stems from historical attitudes towards languages like French and Classical Latin throughout Europe (or at least Western Europe).
Traditionally, people at school in England learnt Latin, and today it is usually justified by the claim that it enables people to 'get to know the origins of their language' and gives them a 'greater understanding of the structure of the English language'. I don't really understand this mentality, and I actually would have thought that learning Anglo-Saxon would be more appropriate — similar to how Scandinavians learn Old Norse.
Pauline wrote:
i completely agree with Benjamin. But..
Quote:
The other 'easy' aspect of German is that Germans and other German speakers generally speak rather 'directly' — you state simply what you mean (to a large extent like in English, actually). I find that the opposite tends to be the case in French.
Lol — essentially I was saying that the way in which Germans generally speak German is more similar to the way in which English people generally speak English, compared to how French people generally speak French, for example. I accept that this is very tenuous, and is based only on my own experience, but I have generally found from listening to Germans speak to each-other, they tend to speak more 'directly', more 'literally', and more 'succinctly' than French people usually do. (I don't know enough about French in Belgium to comment on that).
Traditionally, people at school in England learnt Latin, and today it is usually justified by the claim that it enables people to 'get to know the origins of their language' and gives them a 'greater understanding of the structure of the English language'. I don't really understand this mentality, and I actually would have thought that learning Anglo-Saxon would be more appropriate — similar to how Scandinavians learn Old Norse.
Yes, I agree. There is something snob about latin, and inferior about Anglo-Saxon in the views of many people: cultured, intellectuals know latin (in this image what it has).
Benjamin wrote:
I have generally found from listening to Germans speak to each-other, they tend to speak more 'directly', more 'literally', and more 'succinctly' than French people usually do. (I don't know enough about French in Belgium to comment on that).
Of course I know only some people, not 3,5 millions who are the belgian francophones. Our french isn't very different than in France I think, except sometimes influences from walloon but not frequently.
i find spoken converstaions difficult and tiring, so definitly I prefer very much when the person speak "more directly, literally & succinctly". Maybe this is for french-speakers more different than how the normal speaking is, so this can explain why I like the germanic languages!! If something isn't literally said, I will understand the literal message or not understand it at all, this is very often and I'm absolutly stupid and useless in such complicated converstaions so then get a bit panic.The germanic direct, literal, succinct talking would be perfect for me!!! i will move to live in one of those countries
Traditionally, people at school in England learnt Latin, and today it is usually justified by the claim that it enables people to 'get to know the origins of their language' and gives them a 'greater understanding of the structure of the English language'. I don't really understand this mentality, and I actually would have thought that learning Anglo-Saxon would be more appropriate — similar to how Scandinavians learn Old Norse.
Yes, I agree. There is something snob about latin, and inferior about Anglo-Saxon in the views of many people: cultured, intellectuals know latin (in this image what it has).
Essentially, if someone from England knows Latin, they will generally be see as very well educated, although perhaps a bit eccentric if they know it very well. It's also often a sign that someone went to a private school. On the other hand, someone who knows Anglo-Saxon would more likely been seen as extremely eccentric, perhaps with a somewhat 'quaint' appreciation of ancient folk traditions of rural Saxon life.
There also seems to be an association between French and 'high culture' — to an extent, there is still a kind of expectation that very well educated people and upper-class people here should be able to speak French. Knowing German, on the other hand, is often seen more as a bonus, and is losing ground these days due to increasing popularity of Spanish. Seriously, I had discussions with many people who simply could not understand why on earth I'd choose to study German at university when I could have chosen Spanish instead.
Essentially, if someone from England knows Latin, they will generally be see as very well educated, although perhaps a bit eccentric if they know it very well.
It's the same here.
Quote:
There also seems to be an association between French and 'high culture' — to an extent, there is still a kind of expectation that very well educated people and upper-class people here should be able to speak French.
It's weird that French has such an association, as here all the people speak it, also the completly low cultured (or abolsutly without culture) people. i suppose that it's seen well-educated to be able speak English.
Quote:
Knowing German, on the other hand, is often seen more as a bonus, and is losing ground these days due to increasing popularity of Spanish. Seriously, I had discussions with many people who simply could not understand why on earth I'd choose to study German at university when I could have chosen Spanish instead.
Why everyone must do exactly the same? I never can understand this. Spanish is beautiful, but german as well!! It's the same in Wallonie; spanish is more in the fashion than german. Dutch some people learn because if you woudl like a good career in the government you must speak it. I think that in europe, German is more useful than spanish, althogh in the US vice versa. It isn't only "use" but other things of course what are important. spanish will be very useful for me as I would like to go to the Gapagos islands where there are the *very* nice enormous tortoises. I don't want to die before I've seen them. I think that Galapagos is part of Ecuador where one of the official language is spanish (and some local ones I expect, but I won't learn those).
When I was in Germany last year doing an intensive language course, I remember the point when I suddenly realised that what people there were speaking wasn't really a 'foreign language' at all — but rather a bizarre version of English with various vowel and consonant shifts, and slightly different grammar.
Maybe that closeness is actually the problem -- that it's so close that it becomesdifficult to see the forest for the trees, whereas with romance languages you have a certain comfort of distance. (They say that's why many people find apes ugly -- they're so similar to humans that we begin to judge them by human standards of beauty, which they fall far short of. But less similar creatures, like horses, we judge as beautiful on their own merit -- using completely different standards.)
I seem to have trouble overlooking the strange orthography to find similarities -- I remember several people posting things written in Friesian and being completely flummoxed by it -- couldn't even take a stab at translating it. I can skim Fab or greg's posts in French and get more out of them!
And I don't have any linguistic bias toward or against Germanic versus Romance languages, or see one as more sophisticated or elegant than the other. I never even heard of such a thing until I read all the bickering on Antimoon -- and I still can't take that crap seriously!
In terms of being straightforward, I can see how French is a complete mess from an English-speaker's standpoint. You may have a good point about German being a closer fit to our speech patterns. Even in Spanish, which is much "cleaner" in that regard (my apologies to our resident francophones! No offense intended) I have to read half the sentences backwards or transpose half the words to make sense of them. Of course, there may be some stylistic variations -- I've heard some Spanish speakers from one country accuse those of another of more circumlocution than is really necessary -- I suppose it's not unlike the way Americans are deemed blunt by certain other English-speakers' standards. _________________ An apple a day....
To respond to Portho's original question about taking a foreign language at the college level:
Last semester, I took the introductory course to GERMAN at a nearby community college, and I can safely say that I did not learn as much as I had anticipated. I'm in high school, and I thought college was supposed to be this institution of higher education and accelerated learning. I was disappointed. In the entire textbook, we only went through the two introductory chapters and then four more chapters into the book. We reviewed the same concepts over and over and over and over again and the professor did not expect anyone to memorize any vocabulary other than the really necessary words.
I'm not trying to bag on community colleges or anything, but I think that we learned at such a slow pace because the professor didn't want anyone to fall behind (considering that it's a community college). Maybe if I had taken the course at a university where students are expected to be able to learn more and learn faster, then my experience would have been different.
The German course at the community college that I took was supposedly equivalent to one year of high school German, but I think that I would have learned more in one year of high school German than I did in one semester of German at community college.
I definitely learned more Spanish in one year of high school Spanish than I would have learned if I had taken one semester of Spanish at the community college.
And regarding the whole French vs. German or Romance vs. Germanic discussion:
Granted, English is a Germanic language, so learning German for a native Anglophone would be "easy," but English has so much Latin influence that I don't think an Anglophone learning French would be at that much of a disadvantage.
Learning Spanish, I didn't think that it was difficult at all because there are so many cognates and the grammar is much more straightforward and consistent. Maybe French is different, but if I use Spanish as a barometer for Romance languages, then I'd say that it wouldn't be a problem at all.
As odd as it may sound, I struggled more with German. I wasn't used to the word order of German. It seems like the rules are less straightforward and less consistent because the professor often said "it doesn't matter where that phrase goes, as long as it's somewhere in the sentence" (which ALWAYS frustrated me!). And of course, there are certain times when certain phrases can only go in certain places, so it wasn't a very good experience. But the word order of really basic sentences are similar to English, I guess. There are also more cognates for basic words, so it's easier to form basic sentences right off the bat.
So after all this rambling, I've come to one conclusion: Learning either French or German, you'll encounter obstacles, but you wouldn't be at much of a disadvantage if you chose one over the other.
If I could do it over again though, I think I would rather choose French over German for various reasons:
French is a much more *global* language and I would have more opportunities to use it and practice it.
French pronunciation is VERY inconsistent and irregular, so I'd need a real teacher to be able to teach me how to pronounce the word as opposed to German which is pretty straightforward, making it easier to learn on one's own.
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