Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject: Ever been unable to find historical information in English?
Did you then learn another language to find that which you could not?
I have found no accounts written in English about Queen Margrethe I's relations with the Scandinavian clergy, which is one of the reasons that I elected to study Danish.
Odd as it may sound, I think that an analogous motive exists for those who acquire a knowledge of, say, Turkish, to analyze the dynamic between Suleiman the Magnificent and the Imams, or Hindi, to assess the interactions between Akbar and the Brahmins, or Japanese, to evaluate the rapport between Meiji and the Shinto priests, and so forth.
Assume that you are not dealing with primary sources from the non-recent past, but contemporary literature in the target language. For example, I will be reading Danish texts from the previous century and later, though I will not be hunting for manuscripts in Old Norse.
I have found no accounts written in English about Queen Margrethe I's relations with the Scandinavian clergy, which is one of the reasons that I elected to study Danish.
Really? She must have had some very interesting relationships with them then.... _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Hmm, in the case of Dutch learning Middle or Old Dutch would be pretty pointless. With a bit of exercise every Dutchman can read middle Dutch from about the mid 13th century onwards, with a dictionary you can go to about 1100.
Old Dutch is another story as opposed to Old High German and Old English, Old Dutch is very (no, extremely) scarsely attested in writing ... also, its grammar is truly awesome.
Too bad there is so little of it then, when it is so easily understandable. In Norway we have all those ancient sagas (ok, they are just as much Icelandic, even mostly Icelandic), but nobody can read them in original without a proper education in Old Norse. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Ever been unable to find historical information in Engli
Harrenys Targaryen wrote:
I have found no accounts written in English about Queen Margrethe I's relations with the Scandinavian clergy, which is one of the reasons that I elected to study Danish.
How unusual !!!
but
I think, that the people in your class at school find you weird, no ?
Too bad there is so little of it then, when it is so easily understandable. In Norway we have all those ancient sagas (ok, they are just as much Icelandic, even mostly Icelandic), but nobody can read them in original without a proper education in Old Norse.
Well Middle Dutch literature is overabundant ... Old Dutch is limited to short text or even loose words.
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Ever been unable to find historical information in Engli
Harrenys Targaryen wrote:
[Ever been unable to find historical information in English?] Did you then learn another language to find that which you could not?
Hi Harrenys ! It happened to me for French : I had to improve (almost relearn) German to get specific information about Old German that the literature in French I could find didn't provide me with. Similarly, I made my first incursions into Old English in German (I was in Germany at that time ; English was of little help since almost everything available was published in German). Same for Middle English : although there's no shortage of English publications about the matter, I find Old French to be a quite interesting angle of attack and, as you know, most of things (though far from all) about Old French are written in French. So in this case I didn't have to learn French, but I had to realise there were gaps to be bridged between English literature about Middle English and French literature about Old French...
Fredrik: Yes, there is the possibility that Margrethe could have been courted by the previous incarnation of Alexander Borgia. Tragic lady: born during a plague, died during a campaign, and wooed during a marriage.
Sander: Is that so? Well, I guess Magistrate Grotius is not as inaccessible as I once believed him to be.
Pauline: Most of them think Denmark is a republic, so the bemusement is mutual.
greg i nord-frankrig: Hello! Your experience makes me wonder about "le développement de la langue française"; I mean, if there were other dialects competing with d'oïl and d'oc, if Middle English and Old French were somehow intelligible, and if the reign of Clovis is commonly regarded as the era French (as it is known) first emerged, to name a few points of interest.
Last edited by Harrenys Targaryen on Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hello! Your experience makes me wonder about "le développement de la langue française"; I mean, if there were other dialects competing with d'oïl and d'oc, if Middle English and Old French were somehow intelligible, and if the reign of Clovis is commonly regarded as the era French (as it is known) first emerged, to name a few points of interest.
Actually there were many variants cohabiting among both families — a bit like the High/Low divide regarding Old German. It is hard to speak about something like a French language during Merovingian times. Mainly because the word French (in the linguistic acceptation) can be quite misleading when you go that back in the past (Oïl would be safer a notion though providentially vague) but also because Old Oïl — probably the earliest form of Romance (in terms of differentiation) along with Afrolatin — is thought to have emerged as such sometime around the 8th century (~ Charlemagne) whereas earliest scripta so far recorded are dated 9th century (Cantilène de sainte Eulalie, Serment de Strasbourg etc).
As for Middle English and Old French, it is plausible that any native speaker of any variant of each language had no chance to ever understand his contemporary. However, insular code-switchers of all feathers (native Anglophones, native Francophones, "native" bilinguals etc) somehow solved the issue of intelligibility by way of merger. Chaucer, a bilingual erudite, is a striking illustration. But he's just the tip of the iceberg.
Harrenys:
Who was Alessandro Borgia's Nordic incarnation?
Yes, Margrethe was a tragic figure. Have you read the letter she sent from Akerhus Castle in Oslo to her absent husband the king, when she was 17 years old and pregnant?:
"..du skal også vite at jeg og mine tjenere lider stor nød på mat og drikke, slik at ingen av oss får det vi trenger. Derfor
må jeg be deg om å finne en utvei slik at de som er hos meg ikke blir nødt til å skilles fra meg på grunn av hunger." _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Harrenys:
Who was Alessandro Borgia's Nordic incarnation?
Yes, Margrethe was a tragic figure. Have you read the letter she sent from Akerhus Castle in Oslo to her absent husband the king, when she was 17 years old and pregnant?:
"..du skal også vite at jeg og mine tjenere lider stor nød på mat og drikke, slik at ingen av oss får det vi trenger. Derfor
må jeg be deg om å finne en utvei slik at de som er hos meg ikke blir nødt til å skilles fra meg på grunn av hunger."
Forgive my ignorance but just out of curiosity: "derfor" doesn't mean "therefore", does it?
It does! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Harrenys:
Who was Alessandro Borgia's Nordic incarnation?
An unnamed man with the biggest libido this side of Ribe, whose identity was purged during the Reformation. He is not the proverbial Don Juan, but the symbolic Herre Hans.
Quote:
Yes, Margrethe was a tragic figure. Have you read the letter she sent from Akerhus Castle in Oslo to her absent husband the king, when she was 17 years old and pregnant?:
"..du skal også vite at jeg og mine tjenere lider stor nød på mat og drikke, slik at ingen av oss får det vi trenger. Derfor
må jeg be deg om å finne en utvei slik at de som er hos meg ikke blir nødt til å skilles fra meg på grunn av hunger."
Wow. If the above is an exemplar, then Danskernes Dronning is nobility in both the historical sense and the personal. Just wondering, though: is she requesting that they stay under her care, or is she trying to send them to a place with sufficient food and drink?
Hmm, så "Herr* Hans" er kun et pseudonym?
(* Selv om "herre" er ordets opslagsform, så mister det e'en når det bruges som tittel, lige som andre tittelord der er svage substantiver: Konge, fyrste, greve, frue etc.)
Hvad Margrethe mente kommer bedre frem når man leser hele brevet:
"Eder, min aller kæreste herre, hilser jeg, Margrethe, inderlig med Gud.
Kundgjør jeg Eder at jeg mår* vel, Gud lade mig høre det samme fra Eder.
Det skal I vide, min kære herre, at jeg og mine tjenere lider stor nød på mad og drikke, slik at hverken jeg eller de får det vi trænger. Derfor beder jeg Eder, min kære herre, at I finner en udvej til at det må bedres, slig at de som er hos mig ej bliver nødt til å skilles fra meg for hungers skyld. Og jeg beder Eder at I skriver til Westfal [den tyske købmand i Oslo] om han kan låne mig det jeg kan forlange hos ham og trenger til, og si ham at I vil betale ham vel for det som han låner mig. (...) Må Gud være med Eder, min kære herre."
Hun beder iallefall manden, kong Håkon 6. Magnusson, om kreditt hos den hanseatiske købmand i Oslo, slig at hun ikke må sende sine tjænestefolk bort og/eller se dem dø af sult.
*"mår" er jo en helt tydelig svedisme i denne moderne norske bogmålsoversettelse af Margrethes brev. Det er nok en original svedisme, der er bleven beholdt, da jeg har læst at det oprinnelige sprog i brevet nærmest er svensk. Dette var jo også en tid med relativ stærk svensk påvirkning i Norge, noe der kommer nydeligt frem i et svensk rim som også er ganske kjendt i Norge, om Margrethes svigermoder, dronning Blanca af Namur, der har sin lille sønn Håkon på knæet og synger for ham om hans tilkommende brud:
"Ride, ride ranka,
hästen heter Blanka.
Vart skal vi rida?
Till en liten piga
å fria.
Va ska hon heta?
Jomfru Margareta."
(Linierne "ride, ride ranke / hesten heter Planke" husker jeg fra min egen barndom. Men jeg leser lige nu på en webside at forbindelsen til dronning Blanca er uhistorisk, og at navnet "Blanka" refererer til en av kong Theoderik den store heste, hvis navn "Blanca" betydde en gråhvid skimlet hest på angelsaksisk.) _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Last edited by Fredrik on Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
Jeg fant Margrethes brev i original, i Diplomatarium Norvegicum. Sproget er visseligt ganske eksotisk:
"Idhir min aldrakæraste herra, helsar jak Margareta jnnerligha med gudh, kungør iak ider at jak ma væll gud late mik thet sama till ider spøria, vita skulin j thet min kære herra, at jak ok mine thiænara liidhum stora nøødh, vm mat oc dryk, swa at hwargæ iak ælla the fangom vara nøødthorfft. Oc thy bider iak ider min kære herra, at j finnin ther nokra vægha till at thet moge bættras, at the som med mik æra, ey skulu skylias vider mek fore hungers skuld ok bider iak ider at j scriuin till Væstfall at han mik moghe borgha thet sem iak kan honom tilsigia oc viderthorua, oc sighin honom at j vilin honom væll bytala thet sem han mik borghar. (...) gudh vare med ider min kære herra." _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:49 am Post subject:
Shouga, what level have you reached? An acquaintance of mine who was studying Icelandic told me that both English and Icelandic have a relatively high use of idioms. (I took his word for it and never bothered to research the matter.) Have you found that to be true for Icelandic?
Hmm, så "Herr* Hans" er kun et pseudonym?
(* Selv om "herre" er ordets opslagsform, så mister det e'en når det bruges som tittel, lige som andre tittelord der er svage substantiver: Konge, fyrste, greve, frue etc.)
Heh heh, jeg bør gå til bekendelse: sandheden er at "Herre Hans" aldrig fandtes indtil jeg opfandt ham. Husk på: "Tro ikke alt hvad du læser!"
Quote:
Hvad Margrethe mente kommer bedre frem når man leser hele brevet:
"Eder, min aller kæreste herre, hilser jeg, Margrethe, inderlig med Gud.
Kundgjør jeg Eder at jeg mår* vel, Gud lade mig høre det samme fra Eder.
Det skal I vide, min kære herre, at jeg og mine tjenere lider stor nød på mad og drikke, slik at hverken jeg eller de får det vi trænger. Derfor beder jeg Eder, min kære herre, at I finner en udvej til at det må bedres, slig at de som er hos mig ej bliver nødt til å skilles fra meg for hungers skyld. Og jeg beder Eder at I skriver til Westfal [den tyske købmand i Oslo] om han kan låne mig det jeg kan forlange hos ham og trenger til, og si ham at I vil betale ham vel for det som han låner mig. (...) Må Gud være med Eder, min kære herre."
Hun beder iallefall manden, kong Håkon 6. Magnusson, om kreditt hos den hanseatiske købmand i Oslo, slig at hun ikke må sende sine tjænestefolk bort og/eller se dem dø af sult.
Nu giver det mening. Ja, sammenhæng behøves altid, så at de som analyserer kan forstå de fleste (eller alle) mål.
Tak fordi du skaffede hele brevet, men hvis jeg gerne må foreslå noget: kunne du holde op med at skrive på daniseret norsk, og bruge bokmål i stedet? Jeg mener, jeg har en norsk-engelsk ordbog hos mig og altså kunne forstå det oprindelige uddrag (...du skal også vite...på grunn av hunger), men ikke det redigerede (...det skal I vide...meg for hungers skyld...). Undskyld, hvis jeg synes barsk: jeg tror lige at dette skal lette meningsudvekslinger i fremtiden.
Quote:
*"mår" er jo en helt tydelig svedisme i denne moderne norske bogmålsoversettelse af Margrethes brev. Det er nok en original svedisme, der er bleven beholdt, da jeg har læst at det oprinnelige sprog i brevet nærmest er svensk. Dette var jo også en tid med relativ stærk svensk påvirkning i Norge, noe der kommer nydeligt frem i et svensk rim som også er ganske kjendt i Norge, om Margrethes svigermoder, dronning Blanca af Namur, der har sin lille sønn Håkon på knæet og synger for ham om hans tilkommende brud:
"Ride, ride ranka,
hästen heter Blanka.
Vart skal vi rida?
Till en liten piga
å fria.
Va ska hon heta?
Jomfru Margareta."
(Linierne "ride, ride ranke / hesten heter Planke" husker jeg fra min egen barndom. Men jeg leser lige nu på en webside at forbindelsen til dronning Blanca er uhistorisk, og at navnet "Blanka" refererer til en av kong Theoderik den store heste, hvis navn "Blanca" betydde en gråhvid skimlet hest på angelsaksisk.)
Hvad kan jeg sige? Rytteriet er en hærs bedste del...men vides det hvornår heste for første gang dukkede op i Skandinavien?
Jeg fant Margrethes brev i original, i Diplomatarium Norvegicum. Sproget er visseligt ganske eksotisk:
"Idhir min aldrakæraste herra, helsar jak Margareta jnnerligha med gudh, kungør iak ider at jak ma væll gud late mik thet sama till ider spøria, vita skulin j thet min kære herra, at jak ok mine thiænara liidhum stora nøødh, vm mat oc dryk, swa at hwargæ iak ælla the fangom vara nøødthorfft. Oc thy bider iak ider min kære herra, at j finnin ther nokra vægha till at thet moge bættras, at the som med mik æra, ey skulu skylias vider mek fore hungers skuld ok bider iak ider at j scriuin till Væstfall at han mik moghe borgha thet sem iak kan honom tilsigia oc viderthorua, oc sighin honom at j vilin honom væll bytala thet sem han mik borghar. (...) gudh vare med ider min kære herra."
Enes: gid Chaucer ville have skrevet sine fortællinger på denne måde!
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