Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:40 am Post subject: If it weren't for the Saxons, what language would we be....
........speaking on this forum today? If the Anglo-Saxons had not arrived in Britain, and came, saw, and conquered, then what language would we be speaking today, assuming all else continued on the same, and Britain formed a global empire, bore the United States, and gave way to English as the lingua franca of the world?
We would either be speaking Welsh or some Norse language. That's what I think anyway. Now wouldn't that be interesting.... _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
LOL, I've never thought of it like that: That the Vikings might still have come even if the Anglo-Saxons weren't there! And made a creole Norse language through contact with the Celtic Britons! With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
Það vöru special tunga, mikill eccentrisk! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
I actually wonder to what extent the Romance influence on English is actually the result of the Normans, because if you read Chaucer (Canterbury Tales and all that), you'll notice that there are very few Greco-Latinate words — and Chaucer was essentially an upper-class English person writing in the 14th century (at least 300 years after the Norman invasion) who would have been able to speak French anyway.
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
Kind of like how if you look at SkyBlog profiles (basically a French language equivalent to MySpace/Bebo/Facebook/etc.), you'll notice that people often write things like this:
C'est un photo de ma team de hokey. Notre look est super cool et je suis la leader du club !
C'est un photo de ma team de hokey. Notre look est super cool et je suis la leader du club !
If it is so, it must be a really extreme example of franglais in action. I don't think most French speakers, even teenagers, write or speak like that. Or at least those whom I have interacted with.
Unless the writer of the aforementioned sentence is a French-Canadian. Now, that might be possible. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
I actually wonder to what extent the Romance influence on English is actually the result of the Normans, because if you read Chaucer (Canterbury Tales and all that), you'll notice that there are very few Greco-Latinate words — and Chaucer was essentially an upper-class English person writing in the 14th century (at least 300 years after the Norman invasion) who would have been able to speak French anyway.
Chaucer was a Francophone indeed and he could write poetry in French. His works in English are not that insurmountable for a native French-speaker to understand, at least not more difficult than would be for an Anglophone layman.
Voyez plutôt :
Ther was also a nonne, a prioresse,
That of hir smylyng was ful symple and coy ;
Hire gretteste ooth was but by Seinte Loy ;
And she was cleped Madame Eglentyne.
Ful weel she soong the service dyvyne,
Entuned in hir nose ful semely,
And frenssh she spak ful faire and fetisly,
After the scole of Stratford atte Bowe,
For Frenssh of Parys was to hire unknowe.
Et il y avait cette nonne, prieure de sa qualité,
Au sourire tout empli de douceur et d'effacement ;
« Par saint Éloi ! » était son plus grand jurement ;
Dame Églantine, car tel était son nom,
Chantait le service divin à la perfection,
Qu'elle entonnait comme il sied, à savoir par le nez,
Voilà, sans contredit, un français des plus parfaits —
Selon les canons de l'école de Stratford-atte-Bow,
Car du français de Paris elle ignorait le moindre mot.
Benjamin wrote:
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
It is true that the influx of French words into English — that started before 1066 and is by no means attributable to "the Normans" exclusively — can be categorised according to whether their entry predates or posdates the 17th century. However, massive quantities were injected anytime between the 14th & 15th centuries — that is when literacy became more widespread among the people and when English started to gain some literary status in the British isles. Since French and Latin had eclipsed English in writing before the era of Anglicisation, it is all too understandable that lexical Francomania had been consubstantial with the renaissance of written English well before the 17th century.
People overlook the importance of French derived vocabulary in the English language.
How would a child say he needs to ask a "question"? How would we "excuse" ourselves? We couldn't say "Pardon me", and nor could we say "please" in order to be polite.
In an old Frisian vs. English comparison on antimoon, there was a myriad of words which us as English speakers could not understand, as the Germanic cognates between Frisian and English had since been discontinued in our language, and replaced with words like "honor" and "glory".
There are several words and phrases which we use in English that still, to a large degree, preserves the French pronounciation and spelling, like "bon voyage", "nom de plume", "concierge", "rendezvous", "deja vu", etc. These words were obviously introduced much more recently, during the Francophile craze of the 17th-19th centuries.
But there are a tremendous amount of words which we use of French origin on a frequent basis, which are "Anglicized" in pronounciation, and usually to some extent in orthography as well. Some examples include diverse words such as "appetite", "army" "arms" (guns), "surmount", and hundreds of thousands of others.
Even so, English was influenced by French in yet another facet, and that is its orthography. While other Germanic languages corrupt the spelling of French words by such acts as replacing "c"s with 'k's, English does not.
But back to the original topic of this thread. Had the Anglo-Saxons not come, what would have become of Britain? There is no doubt that the Vikings would have still made their way to the British Isles, and the only question is what impact they would have had in the absence of the Saxons? However, possibly given enough time to prepare, unify, and became more martial in nature, the old Romano-Britons might have stood a fighting chance against successive waves of foreign invaders, like the Picts and the Norse. Under such circumstances, the Vikings might have been unable to establish their Danelaw, and could have been reduced to their typical coastal maurading as in other areas with stronger central governments.
Just imagine the Anglophone world of today speaking a language like Welsh instead of English. That would be something to see. It would make the Celtic language family a language group worth paying attention to, rather than some dying breed only actively present in the fringes of the British Isles. The United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, parts of South Africa, much of former colonial Africa and the Carribean, could all have been speaking Welsh today! _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Datt vwld haff bin cwl! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
If it weren't for the Saxons, what language would we be....
L'histoire est un concours de circonstances dont les cause et les conséquences sont entremélées les unes avec les autres. Il est difficile de savoir comment serait le monde si les Iles Britanniques n'avait pas subi les invasions Anglo-Saxonnes... Probalement assez différent. Et il serait difficilement envisageable que le reste se soit déroulé de même manière.
Quote:
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
Yes. For example, yesterday I was at an art gallery outside San Francisco. There were a few paintings featuring words written in French on the scene. When I translated what they said, everybody "oohed" and "ahhhed" at me, as if I was a refined gentleman just because I could translate some French. French is seen as the ultimate language of sophistication, culture, and romance in the U.S. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Is the above an actual language, or just English made to look Scandanavian?
Just a (bad) attempt at English with Welsh ortography! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
People overlook the importance of French derived vocabulary in the English language.
How would a child say he needs to ask a "question"? How would we "excuse" ourselves? We couldn't say "Pardon me", and nor could we say "please" in order to be polite.
That's right, although many of these words do have alternative 'Germanic' words in regional English dialects.
fab wrote:
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
Likewise, if you want to sound very sophisticated, you can include un-anglicised French and pseudo-French words and expressions in English. Things like raison d'être and de rigeur and la crème de la crème and pièce de résistance etc.
It's not only amongst English speakers where French has been seen in this way though. For example, the Danish aristocracy used to believe that the Danish language was inferior. Instead, they spoke German to their servants and French to each-other, whilst Danish was reserved for the ordinary people. Thus, there was a kind of linguistic hierarchy — French was the most prestigious language, followed by German, with Danish at the bottom.
That's right, although many of these words do have alternative 'Germanic' words in regional English dialects.
Really? Such as what? I don't think we use any Germanic alternatives in American English, but perhaps there are some in various dialects of England. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Thus, there was a kind of linguistic hierarchy — French was the most prestigious language, followed by German, with Danish at the bottom.
With Low German between (High) German and Danish (at least in Jutland) and at the bottom Norwegian, which everybody just thought was bad Danish!
But your point is very correct, Benjamin. As a lyrical tribute to the great 18th century Danish-Norwegian author Ludvig Holberg says about his times:
Hver Mand, som med Kløgt gik i Lærdom til Bund,
Latin paa Papiret kun malte,
med Fruerne Fransk, og Tydsk med sin Hund
og Dansk med sin Tjener han talte.
=
Every man, who with cunning himself in learning immersed,
only Latin on paper did write,
with the ladies French, and German with his dog
and Danish with his servant he spoke.
Indeed Holberg, who was both a professor and a playwright, wrote a play called "Jean de France", about a Francophile Dane, Hans Frandsen, who came home from France not just with a new name (Jean de France) and refined manners, but also with a very snobby Francophile version of his native Danish. As Holberg lets the character say himself: jeg har oublieret gandske mit Dansk dans Paris = my Danish has fallen quite into oblivion dans Paris..
(Though Holberg's most famous linguistical snob is the Danish peasant boy Rasmus Berg, who comes home to his village from the university of Copenhagen as the Latinophile Erasmus Montanus and nearly looses his fiancée when he shocks the villagers with heretic claims about the earth being round!)
BTW Francomania was even more pronounced in Sweden than in Denmark (which was too heavily influenced by German to give French a fair chance.) The Swedes even walk on the trottoar! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
maybe it wouold be danish in north Britain and welsh-french mixture in the south and it would be 2 spearate countries the north part would be scandinavia and the south part would be an indpendant country not in the UE. There would be illegal immigranst attemtping cross the border at manchester for travel south. the north part would want the euro but isn't allowed and the south part is allowed but don't want. But the north part is furious because the south part put its nuclear factories at the border and the wind's blwoing the pollution to the north east and they have acid rain.
the north part would want the euro but isn't allowed and the south part is allowed but don't want. But the north part is furious because the south part put its nuclear factories at the border and the wind's blwoing the pollution to the north east and they have acid rain.
LOL — that all sounds very familiar. Yes, I'm talking about the current situation with England and Scotland, where the increasingly popular Scottish National Party want to adopt the euro and remove all the nuclear power stations and nuclear weapons from Scotland — decisions which they feel have been made for Scotland by England, without really taking Scottish interests into account. So maybe things wouldn't be so different afterall!
However, I should mention that nuclear power stations are not actually a major cause of acid rain. Instead, acid rain is mainly caused by coal/oil power stations, car exhausts etc. (I'm still strongly anti-nuclear though)
Porthos wrote:
Really? Such as what? I don't think we use any Germanic alternatives in American English, but perhaps there are some in various dialects of England.
Well, some people from some places might be more likely to say 'sorry love' or just 'I'm sorry', instead of 'pardon' or 'excuse me' — I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
It *can* be used, but very, very rarely! Maybe some older, extravagant people use it sometimes, but the English word "sorry" is rather more popular, esp. among the youth - though not as much as the traditional 'tschuldigung or "tut mir leid" - or "dud ma leed" as I would say it in my dialect. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
It *can* be used, but very, very rarely! Maybe some older, extravagant people use it sometimes, but the English word "sorry" is rather more popular, esp. among the youth - though not as much as the traditional 'tschuldigung or "tut mir leid" - or "dud ma leed" as I would say it in my dialect.
It's kind of the similar here — phrases like 'I beg your pardon' and 'pardon me' and 'pardon?' tend to be used mainly amongst older people.
On a sort of related note, whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
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