Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: Occitan. Your Thoughts?
I think it is a beautiful language. It sounds like it is in between French, Italian, and Spanish. Sometimes it sounds like one of any of these three, while mainly it sounds like a cross between all of them. It is beautiful language, and I wish it was better preserved.
It makes sense that it would sound like a hybrid of Spanish, French, and Italian, as it is native, geographically, to the crossroads between France-Italy-Spain. I actually understood a lot more than I thought I would.
estoy pensando de la diferencia entre el occitan y el catalán, porque me parecen muy semejantes. Supongo que el segundo habría más influencia del castellano, pero debo decir, que occitan también la tiene cuando lo ves escrito.
( i'm thinking about the difference between occitan and catalan because to me they look very similar. I suppose that the second would have more influence of spanish, but i must say, that occitan also has, when you see it wrote down. )
Hay tambien mucha influencia del frances. Puede oir las influencias francesas y del italiano? Palabras por ejemplo "per", "adieu", "non", etc.
I could also recognize several words that were almost exactly like Spanish. "Frances", "problema", "aqui", "sus tienes", "cuando", etc. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Il y a eu, bien sûr, des influences mutuelles entre les langues d'Oc (dont l'occitan) et les langues d'Oïl (dont le français) et les langues arpitanes (francoprovençales).
Mais ça ne veut pas dire que toutes les similarités lexicales soient dues à des emprunts dans un sens ou dans l'autre.
Comparez ce texte en français :
Considérant que la méconnaissance et le mépris des droits de l'homme ont conduit à des actes de barbarie qui révoltent la conscience de l'humanité et que l'avènement d'un monde où les êtres humains seront libres de parler et de croire, libérés de la terreur et de la misère, a été proclamé comme la plus haute aspiration de l'homme (...)
avec son équivalent occitan :
Considerant que de desconéisser e mespresar los dreches de l'òme a menat a de barbaritats otrajantas per la consciéncia de l'umanitat e que l'aveniment d'un mond ont los èssers umans seràn liures de parlar e de creire, deliurats de la terror e de la misèria, es estat proclamat coma l'aspiracion mai nauta de l'òme (...)
Voyez maintenant la version en interlingua, une langue néolatine artificielle :
Considerante que le ignorantia e le disprecio del derectos human ha resultate in actos de barbaria que ultragia le conscientia del humanitate, e que le advenimento de un mundo in le qual le esseres human essera libere de parlar e de creder, liberate del terror e del miseria, ha essite proclamate como le plus alte aspiration del homine (...)
"Occitan" is a recent term. When I was in college, about 35-40 years ago, the language was called "Provençal," and most Americans had never heard of it. The language is better known today possibly because of the internet. However, I feel uncomfortable with this polical correctness word "Occitan" which is really only one dialect of Provençal just as "Inuit" (used in Canada for Eskimos) is only one dialect of Eskimo.
"Occitan" is a recent term. When I was in college, about 35-40 years ago, the language was called "Provençal," and most Americans had never heard of it. The language is better known today possibly because of the internet. However, I feel uncomfortable with this polical correctness word "Occitan" which is really only one dialect of Provençal just as "Inuit" (used in Canada for Eskimos) is only one dialect of Eskimo.
This was on antimoon. :gogol2:
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
J'imagine que ce que Brennus voulait — maladroitement — dire c'est que l'*utilisation* du terme occitan pour désigner l'*ensemble* des langues d'Oc est un fait relativement récent — ce qui est vrai. Il est vrai aussi que le vocable provençal (pour la même acception, soit : l'ensemble des langues d'Oc) a précédé occitan tant au XIXe siècle qu'à l'époque médiévale.
Last edited by greg in noord-frankrijk on Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
It's nice of you to defend him, he can be grateful. But it's very funny that he is the moderator, and he's writing such ignorant things, but tell us shut up when we write something he not agree with.
I think, that I'm not anymore annoyed about the thread deletions and disresepct by brennus - now he's so ridiculous and funny.
Tu devrais faire un petit tour sur Chaîne de mots antoymes, Pauline (ça rime), et nous dire si cette discipline remporte ton estime — grande ou minime. :lol:
I have read those messages, and they're very fun. You've put some nice pictures there also. You know why I haven't wrote there, but it will be maybe possible in the future. I wrote two wodrs in french on antimoon.
Thanks for posting that link, Porthos. It was interesting to hear the different accents and slight dialectical differences among the speakers. I heard a few gasconisms in sénher Grossclaude's speech (cau, tau, ua, aquiu, demand-[@], escòl-[@], problem-[@], etc.), while senhora Delaurens' accent and vocabulary had a distinctly Iberian flavor.
Porthos wrote:
Hay tambien mucha influencia del frances. Puede oir las influencias francesas y del italiano? Palabras por ejemplo "per", "adieu", "non", etc.
I think it's best to say that those were words inherited from Latin or Vulgar Latin rather than influences of French or Italian. "Adiu", by the way, is used as both a greeting and farewell, unlike in French where it's used only as a farewell.
Quote:
I could also recognize several words that were almost exactly like Spanish. "Frances", "problema", "aqui", "sus tienes", "cuando", etc.
The word that sounded like "sus tienes" was actually sostiéner, the Gascon word for "to support, to uphold" (normalized Occitan: sosténer). Also, FYI: aquí (gascon: aquiu) means "there" (equivalent to francés "là"), and the Oc word for "when" is quand.
Thanks for posting that link, Porthos. It was interesting to hear the different accents and slight dialectical differences among the speakers. I heard a few gasconisms in sénher Grossclaude's speech (cau, tau, ua, aquiu, demand-[@], escòl-[@], problem-[@], etc.), while senhora Delaurens' accent and vocabulary had a distinctly Iberian flavor.
Porthos wrote:
Hay tambien mucha influencia del frances. Puede oir las influencias francesas y del italiano? Palabras por ejemplo "per", "adieu", "non", etc.
I think it's best to say that those were words inherited from Latin or Vulgar Latin rather than influences of French or Italian. "Adiu", by the way, is used as both a greeting and farewell, unlike in French where it's used only as a farewell.
However, in Southern France Adieu ! may be used as a greeting, like Salut ! (both greeting & farewell). Probably what one may call a Francitanism.
Pauline wrote:
Greg,
Are you one of those Brennnus ? (Notice the 3nnn) There were messages on antimoon in this name. LOL
Non, Pauline, il ne s'agit pas de moi. Je n'usurpe jamais l'identité de qui que ce soit (ni ici ni sur Antimoon) et je signe tout ce que j'écris de mon nom et d'aucun autre.
I think it's best to say that those were words inherited from Latin or Vulgar Latin rather than influences of French or Italian. "Adiu", by the way, is used as both a greeting and farewell, unlike in French where it's used only as a farewell.
However, in Southern France Adieu ! may be used as a greeting, like Salut ! (both greeting & farewell). Probably what one may call a Francitanism.
Although I cannot say for Catalan since I speak neither Catalan nor Occitan, I do believe both to be mutually intelligible to some degree (which doesn't answer your question, I'm aware of that) and I imagine so would Occitan and French, to a lesser degree, though.
I think Occitan is a beautiful language. I've also heard that it is mutually intelligible with both Catalan and French. Can anyone confirm this?
Yes, from what I've heard and read, Occitan and Catalan are mutually intelligible once you get past the differences in accents and turns of phrases. I think it was Jordi (from Catalonia) on antimoon who once said that he had no trouble understanding Occitan speakers during his travels through the Midi.
If you're interested in hearing more conversational Occitan, here's another clip posted on You Tube. The host is Aranés from Barcelona TV:
No sorry, my paternal family spoke gascon, but they "immigrate" to the basque country in the 50' and my father got married with one Basque, since we are more bascophones that gascophones...
I intend to learn it later, because I know some vocabularies of the Gascon, my big father usually speaking about it...
Jan Petit que danso
Per lou Rei de Franço
Jan Petit que danso
Per lou Rei de Franço
Eme lou ped, ped, ped
Me le cambo, cambo, cambo
Ansin danso Jan Petit
Jan Petit que danso
Per lou Rei de Franço
Jan Petit que danso
Per lou Rei de Franço
Eme lou ped, ped, ped
Me la cambo, cambo, cambo
Melou quieu, quieu, quieu!
...
Later I do not remember any more besides I know height of the others but I am afraid of making full of spelling mistakes...
(I used internet because I did not know the spelling...)
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