Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography
I have a tendency to associate languages with the places they're spoken, the people who speak them, and the culture they represent. And due to my geographic location, I will often primarily associate a language like English with the United States, and Spanish with Mexico, whereas most Europeans would probably associate English with England, and Spanish with Spain.
So to me, when I think of the English language, my mind sees sunny skies, sandy beaches, and palm trees of California and Florida, whereas for most Europeans, typical northern European things come to mind.
When I think of Dutch and German, I think of the northern European climate and landscape, a Nordic-type people, bland culture, northern European cuisine, beer, pubs, etc. And for most Europeans, English brings to mind things associated with England or the British Isles, which are all very much like the things associated with the Netherlands and Germany. So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, ), the natural tendency is to see English as being represenative of a Germanic culture, and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others.
But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.
In some ways, I see English as being tied to Black Americans, and their very distinct culture. I picture the AAVE of the inner cities of America, and somehow cannot for the life of me see much of a similaritiy between that culture and people, and the culture of northern Europe.
I see English as being tied to the inhabitants of New York, and I think mainly of all the Italians and Jews and their very distinct sub-culture and accents, and I can't possibly associate that culture with those of northern Europe.
In my mind I also see all of the tanned skin, bikin-clad, vibrant peoples of southern California, Miami, Florida, and Hawaii, and Australia, and the warm, sub-tropical and or mediterranean climates associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that are not of northern European descent, but primarily Latin-American and Pacific Islander.
Similarly, with Spanish, Spain doesn't come to mind so much as Latin America does. When I think of Spanish my mind sees the sun-scorched stretches of desert in Mexico, and the tropics of Central America and the Caribbean. I think of hot, humid rainforests, warm beaches, deserts, Afro-influenced music and dance, beer (not wine like the viticulture of Spain), Mestizo and Mulatto peoples, spicy food, coffee plantations and coffee itself, etc. Much of those things are not things which we would normally associate with Spain or Latin Europe, but most Europeans probably think of Spain in association with Spanish because of their close proximity to the country. As a Californian, a very different image comes to mind. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
How others may look at yourself will always be a hard thing to understand. Or, put it differently, the very impression you make on others is something you can hardly capture. To me, the very first impression made by native Anglophones is Anglo-Saxon, whatever the background or the geography (Alaska, Florida, England etc).
Likewise, the very first impression I get from Hispanophones is Hispanicity, even if there are indeed blatant differences between Asturians and Peruvians.
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography
Porthos wrote:
whereas most Europeans would probably associate English with England
I agree that most English people would associate English primarily with England. But I'd question whether England is really the first place that comes to mind when other Europeans think of the English language.
Let's face it — England is not the main reason why English is the most commonly learnt second language in Europe. I've met many people from all over Europe over the past few years, and it's always been obvious to me that the country they associate the English language with most is the United States.
The whole of Europe is obsessed with America. On the other hand, it's quite hard to find people with any real interest in England.
Porthos wrote:
and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others.
I find it very hard to imagine why anyone with at least some basic knowledge of European languages wouldn't 'naturally' see English as a Germanic language.
I find it very hard to imagine why anyone with at least some basic knowledge of European languages wouldn't 'naturally' see English as a Germanic language.
No doubt, no doubt. It's just that many find it hard to imagine that the culture associated with the English language is one akin to that of other Germanic speaking countries. Many people think in terms of culture and langauge going hand-in-hand, as cultures can be transmitted through language. So it might be harder for say, a Cuban-Floridian to identify the English which he speaks with a Germanic culture, while he easily identifies other Germanic languages like Dutch and German with that "Germanic" culture, for lack of a better word.
In-N-Uit, dat is wat een hamburger allen over is! .........(It's my Dutch translation of an American fast-food commercial song). For those of you from the West Coast, try to figure out what it means. Hint hint -- The first six words are nearly identical to their English counterparts. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I agree that most English people would associate English primarily with England. But I'd question whether England is really the first place that comes to mind when other Europeans think of the English language.
I disagree. Consider that most of the Europeans on this forum, who learned English, studied standard British English, rather than American English. And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I disagree. Consider that most of the Europeans on this forum, who learned English, studied standard British English, rather than American English.
I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:
Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British
I haven't seen enough of the others to have made an impression.
Porthos wrote:
And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture.
I sometimes wonder if it's actually more the other way round — that people project their impression of the United States onto England. Similar to how Americans sometimes seem to project their impression of Mexico onto Spain.
One example of this: When I first knew my French friend, he talked about education systems as though the system we have in England was the same as the system in the United States, and he seemed to assume that I would naturally believe in the American Dream. I don't believe in the American Dream, and I don't know many English people who do either.
(Incidentally, I think that my French friend is actually a lot more 'American' than me).
I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:
Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British
That's very difficult to say, being that the written language is based on Standard British English and Standard American English, which are not very different at all, with the exception of a few minor spelling differences such as "center-centre" and "color-colour", and words such as "whilst vs while".
In the above post of yours, your English would be identical to mine, except for one word, -- "learnt", instead of my "learned", where I would use "-ed" to form the past tense, you use "-t".
Quote:
I sometimes wonder if it's actually more the other way round — that people project their impression of the United States onto England. Similar to how Americans sometimes seem to project their impression of Mexico onto Spain.
Only ignorant Americans would project their impression of Mexico onto Spain, although honestly, this would include a large chunk of Americans I'm afraid, who are notoriously ignorant of the outside world.
However, I would think that at least most Europeans would think of the U.S. as being a cultural extension of England rather than the other way around simply because, England came first. England transmitted her culture/language to a colony made up of people from England on another continent. English was in existance for roughly 1500 years before the 13 American colonies were even thought of. Just as many people here feel that the only correct form of Spanish is that of Spain, because in their eyes, the language was originally spoken in Spain, and as such, any other variety outside of Spain must be a corrupted, water-down, inferior product of the original, "pure" variety. A lot of Spaniards look down on Mexicans for their Spanish because of this, and many retarded Anglophones here in the U.S. repeat this nonsense all the time, and it drives me mad. The same people who scream at their employees and add an "o" to everything they say. -- " I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?" _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:
Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British
So, what for me??
Quote:
" I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?"
That remind me a summer hit of an Ivorian group,
In Africa, French Abidjan street language is largely influenced by african languages,
Premier Gaou:
extract:
"C'est dans ma galère que la go Antou m'a quittéo
(...)
Dieu merci pou' moyé
Je savais chanté un peuo
J'ai fais ma cassetto
On me voit à la téléo
Matin, midi, soi'
C'est moi je chante à la radioô
Antou à vu ça, elle dit : "Lé gaou a percéo"
Attend je vais partir lé coupéo"
What I meant was that there seems to be an image of 'English-speaking culture' which is based largely upon how the United States portrays itself through the international media. As a result, people's perceptions of the United States are sometimes projected onto English-speaking countries in general.
Bear in mind that most Europeans who aren't British or Irish have far greater exposure to American culture than to British culture, even though the United States is geographically much further away. It might come as a surprise to you that most French people, for example, have never been to Britain, probably don't really know much about what it's like here, and probably aren't really interested either. On the other hand, the United States is seen as a fascinating country all over Europe.
It might come as a surprise to you that most French people, for example, have never been to Britain, probably don't really know much about what it's like here, and probably aren't really interested either. On the other hand, the United States is seen as a fascinating country all over Europe.
Few years back, I was really interested in going to England and even try to find a job there. But when I went to London, I didn't really appreciate the way of living (nor the landscapes beyond the city) and from this time, my interests turned towards the United-States. (I must add that I certainly didn't stay long enough in England to put ut with the English life style and that I wasn't in the good family to combine with it either). _________________ Karout hep bezañ karet
A zo kriz ha kalet
Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:
Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British
Interesting. As far as I can judge, I agree with you on Fab, Greg, Pauline (her syntax is a bit French, though), Walker and KSa but I'm not sure about Fredrik. For some reason, I associate Loic with Britishness - it might be because Standard Singaporean English is largely based on Standard British English.
Porthos wrote:
That's very difficult to say, being that the written language is based on Standard British English and Standard American English, which are not very different at all, with the exception of a few minor spelling differences such as "center-centre" and "color-colour", and words such as "whilst vs while".
Style and the choice of words also speak volumes. In the case of some people (e.g. Loic, Greg, Walker etc.) that's what makes me decide which type of English they write and speak. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Interesting. As far as I can judge, I agree with you on Fab, Greg, Pauline (her syntax is a bit French, though), Walker and KSa but I'm not sure about Fredrik. For some reason, I associate Loic with Britishness - it might be because Standard Singaporean English is largely based on Standard British English.
I wasn't really sure about Fredrik either. About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.
Liz wrote:
Style and the choice of words also speak volumes. In the case of some people (e.g. Loic, Greg, Walker etc.) that's what makes me decide which type of English they write and speak.
That's right. I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.
I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.
It's because he uses American vocab most of the time. He has an excellent command of American colloquialisms. (Again, as far as I can judge - I'm not a native English speaker and definitely not an American one.)
Benjamin wrote:
About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.
So do I. Victorian style peppered with contemporary British slang expressions, but it's a treat to read - at least for me. It certainly brings much more aesthetic satisfaction than proofreading my own posts and editing them at least a thousand times (and still finding plenty of mistakes in them). _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
The same people who scream at their employees and add an "o" to everything they say. -- " I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?"
And the employees tolerate that kind of treatment?
Liz wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.
It's because he uses American vocab most of the time. He has an excellent command of American colloquialisms. (Again, as far as I can judge - I'm not a native English speaker and definitely not an American one.)
Why, thank you, Liz! And I do use American spelling. As for our missing Norwegian, I've noticed that he uses both ways of spelling.
About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.
For some reason, this made me bust up laughing! Just the way you said it, "from about a hundred years ago", made me burst into laughter. But it's so true. I feel as if there's a Victorian gentleman in my living room talking to me over tea when I read Loic's posts. I can't for the life of me picture him as a 21st Century Asian, less than ten years older than me. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
And the employees tolerate that kind of treatment?
They're illegal aliens! They have to tolerate it if they want to feed their 10 kids and not get reported to immigration services.
These poor Mexican immigrants are treated like dirt. They're often forced to accept slave wages, well below minimum wage, while doing the kind of work no white American would dare take on, and struggling to raise large families in a foreign land. The upper-middle class white people who employ them drive me mad sometimes, with their arrogance, their condescending tone of voice, and their ignorance. A lot of them honestly believe that they can add a vowel to most English words and be understood by a Spanish speaker, because of the Romance cognates English shares with Spanish. The racism is not usually overt, but closet racism or feelings of superiority do indeed exists. Because of how I look, many white people complain to me and speak abusively of Mexicans, revealing their true racist sentiments, only to find out that I myself am Mexican, and when I tell them that, they get this "Oh Shit!" look on their face. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject:
[What better way to relieve the stress of not being even close to done with my Spanish homework, than to forget about it and visit langcafe?]
Porthos, I know what you mean about the prejudice against Mexicans here. I even hear it from acquaintances of mine who should know better. On a slightly related note, when I first started going with my Mexican former boyfriend, I decided to teach myself Spanish. I wanted to learn vocabulary that would be useful in our personal lives, like how to talk about things around the house, and I came across a book titled something like "Useful Conversational Spanish: How To Talk To Your Mexican Employees". It actually had a lot of vocabulary I wanted to learn, so I bought it, but the cover was so embarrassing that I used to stick it inside a bigger book or magazine when I read it on the subway. (And I could just imagine some upper middle-class American shouting those sentences at her cleaning woman, with a strong American accent, of course.)
I have two sorts of images when I think of the English language. One is of urban US, because of where I grew up (and the beaches are foggy, not sunny); the other is moors and castles in England, because of all the British movies I was exposed to when I was growing up. The former also, like Porthos, is strongly associated with black Americans, whose speech has been the source of so much of our slang for so many generations.
For me, I do not make a conscious association with the English language in general and with a pre-determined landscape. Of coure, such an association would readily spring to mind if one talks about British English, American English, Australian English, etc.
For languages I do not quite know much about, I am more than happy to give my opinion. For some reason, I associate Italian with hirsuite vain men who think highly of themselves, slap women whom they approve on the buttocks - even if they are married, lasagna and pasta, Roman ruins, romantic canals in Venice and to a much lesser extent, the Roman Catholic church.
Before Porthos mentioned Mexico, I was going to say that the musical lilt of the Spanish language brings to mind the racy flamingo dances of Andalusia. Now, I am reminded of La Bamba and oh, what a fantastic song it is (especially the interpretation by Los Lobos).
German inspires polarising images in me, both positive and negative. The positive images are those which one'd stereotypically associate with the Germans: stoic to the point of dourness, methodical to the point of metronomic accuracy, obedience to rules and regulations to a fault.
On the other hand, my penchant for war films has also made German a natural language for barking out military orders. Instructions in German always sound so much more bloodcurdingly chilling than those in English or say, French.
Of course, that is because I am largely ignorant of German and do not understand a jot of it. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
On the other hand, my penchant for war films has also made German a natural language for barking out military orders. Instructions in German always sound so much more bloodcurdingly chilling than those in English or say, French.
Of course, that is because I am largely ignorant of German and do not understand a jot of it.
That's okay, because we're just talking about how our mind associates languages, based on our life experiences which influence such a thing. So, feel free to write whatever comes to mind, no matter how far from reality it is.
I used to think of German as a harsh language, and when compared to English, I still think it is. But it sounds wonderfully soft after listening to so much Dutch all the time. Compared to Dutch, German is as a soft as a lullaby, and I think it's a rather cute language, especially when spoken by a woman, preferably in an undertone.
When I think of German, of course Nazi Germany comes to mind, but I also think of chocolate pastries, strudels, the Three Little Pigs, those little Central European houses and villages, and all of the landscape one would associate with Austria, Switzerland, and southern Germany. I have this romantic connection between Low German and northern Germany, although I'm sure most people in northern Germany speak standard High German these days. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
OK. So it's my turn though i guess most people dont care about what is in my mind
English - i think about work, about my boss (I work with foreigners), i use english so often with people of so many different nationalities, that this language has lost any associations with a certain country or with culture. Sometimes i think that it's a conlang.
Japanese - Saylor Moon, it's Japanese cartoon shown here on TV, tamagochi, robots, geisha, Haruki Murakami (popular japanese author here), sushi bar, japanese cuisine in general (I like it a lot).
Chinese - illegal immigrants, fake cheap goods, kind of enemy
Hindi - vedas!!! TEA!!! Tadge Mahal.
Latin - Roman Empire, great power
Ancient Greek - philosophy
Sanskrit - language of our anscestors, sacred language
Portugues - Brazil, carnivals, eternal heat, bananas, monkeys, Amazon region
Italian - opera, pizza, Italina cuisine in general (I like it)
French - frogs, wine, well again cuisine, fashion, parfume, Eiffel Tower
German - business, big companies, good cars
Spanish - machos, gringos, burritos, big Mexican hats and guitar, corrida
All times are GMT + 2 Hours Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Next
Page 1 of 5
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
), the natural tendency is to see English as being represenative of a Germanic culture, and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others.
.........(It's my Dutch translation of an American fast-food commercial song). For those of you from the West Coast, try to figure out what it means. 
Hint hint -- The first six words are nearly identical to their English counterparts.
of an Ivorian group,
It certainly brings much more aesthetic satisfaction than proofreading my own posts and editing them at least a thousand times (and still finding plenty of mistakes in them). 
