Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Quand utiliser 'de' ou 'du'
Is there a particular grammatical rule by which French speakers know when to use "du" and when to use "de"? If so, what is that rule? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Your question is broad enough to call for many kinds of answers. So I'll focus on the partitive (article) only, the avatars of which can be du, dela or del' depending upon the grammatical gender of the substantive *AND* whether that noun is vowel-initial or not.
BASIC RULE
Any grammatical masculine requires du as a partitive article.
du pain : bread, some bread
du lait : milk, some milk
du thé : tea, some tea
Any grammatical feminine requires dela as a partitive article.
de la viande : meat, some meat
de la crème : cream, some cream
de la farine : flour, some flour
APOSTROPHE RULE
Any substantive — whether a grammatical feminine or masculine — requires del' as a partitive article if the noun begins with a vowel or a mute <h>.
de l'argent (m) : money, some money
de l'eau (f) : water, some water
de l'hydromel (m) : hydromel, some hydromel
de l'huile (f) : oil, some oil.
Yes, apparently. And so do de la and de l' — all three being called partitives.
Actually de may mean many things : from, some, of, off, by, in, per, 's, to, any, out of, a, an, no, with etc.
Likewise, du can be : of the, some, any etc.
And don't worry about the "trouble" : you *need* to know partitives if you want to speak French. The rules may well seem odd but they're totally natural for Francophones : nobody thinks about them when using them. It's like driving a car : you don't think about how the engine actually works when you're driving ; you're just driving, that's all.
But be careful ! The Spanish and French partitives aren't exactly interchangeable :
du pain = Ø pan
du sucre = Ø azúcar
de la farine = Ø harina
de la viande = Ø carne
de l'argent = Ø dinero
de l'eau = Ø agua
de l'huile = Ø aceite.
rules may well seem odd but they're totally natural for Francophones : nobody thinks about them when using them
REally true !! I had completly forgotten to mention this meaning of "du/de l'/de la" in French. That is so natural I didn't ever realised that I use it all the time...
As for the difference in the positive/negative way, I didn't even noticed it before !...
Wow, French grammar seems much more difficult than Spanish. I have found that French sentence structure is often very different from Spanish, which is suprising, considering how similar Latin languages usually are in most cases. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
(du)pain = (Ø)pan = (Ø;some)bread (de la)farine = (Ø)harina = (Ø;some)flour (de l')argent = (Ø)dinero = (Ø;some)money.
Typically, the French partitive is so : <de> + definite article — knowing that <du> = <de> + <le> —, while the Spanish one is <Ø>, which also is one of the two English forms : <Ø> & <some>.
Some variants of Occitan use a French-like form of partitive while some others (like Gascon, except perhaps Médocain) use a Spanish-like form, just like Catalan does.
French-like : Wallon, Ligurian, Piedmontese etc. Italian partitive may be like French, but not always.
(du)pain = (Ø)pan = (Ø;some)bread (de la)farine = (Ø)harina = (Ø;some)flour (de l')argent = (Ø)dinero = (Ø;some)money.
Typically, the French partitive is so : <de> + definite article — knowing that <du> = <de> + <le> —, while the Spanish one is <Ø>, which also is one of the two English forms : <Ø> & <some>.
Some variants of Occitan use a French-like form of partitive while some others (like Gascon, except perhaps Médocain) use a Spanish-like form, just like Catalan does.
French-like : Wallon, Ligurian, Piedmontese etc. Italian partitive may be like French, but not always.
What do you mean with "may be like French, but not always" ?
In Italian one can use a partitive article besides after prepositions or adjectives of quantity or negative sentences
Si rivolge ad amici - he addresses friends
Viaggia in pullman confortevoli - he travels in comfortable coaches
Est-ce que les deux types de phrase se disent (avec le sens français en italique) ?
Ha comprato del pane — Ha comprato pane
J'ai acheté du pain
Mangio della carne — Mangio carne
Je mange de la viande
Beve dell'acqua — Beve acqua
Il boit de l'eau
Les deux sont grammaticalement corrects. Quelle possibilité choisirait un Italophone maternel. Cela je l'ignore. Il y a certaines nuances que seul les autochtones connaissent. C'est la même chose pour le choix entre plusieurs mots synonymes. L'essentiel c'est de ne jamais employer le partitif dans une phrase négative.
The both ways are correct grammatically speaking. I don't know which way would chose an native Italian speaker. Certain subtleties are only known by native speakers. Same thing when one have to chose among several synonyms. The most important thing is not to use partitive in a negative sentence in Italian.
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