It'll ne'er be a leid* till King Jamie comes hame....
(* Scots for "language") _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Following the Act of Union in 1707, the question arose as to whether people in Scotland should speak English or Scots. (Scottish-Gaelic was never considered as an option at the time). It was decided that they should speak English, and as a result, Standard English was taught to the children at school, essentially as a foreign language. The result of all this is the situation we see today.
I'm struggling with myself on my position on this issue. I'll listen to Ben's recordings when I get a chance, and perhaps that will help me in my decision. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
My conclusion is that it is a dialect. In written form, it is nearly 100% intelligable, and in spoken form, it sounds like they are speaking English and using basically the same vocabulary that I use, only with a strong accent. I don't see how this makes it a seperate language. The first sample sounded like normal English to me, and the second one just sounded like English with a very heavy accent. How does that make it a different language?
And Benjamin. I have a question. Do most lowlanders speak this "Scots", or do only a minority speak Scots dialect? And in school they speak in standard English, no? _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
My conclusion is that it is a dialect. In written form, it is nearly 100% intelligable, and in spoken form, it sounds like they are speaking English and using basically the same vocabulary that I use, only with a strong accent. I don't see how this makes it a seperate language. The first sample sounded like normal English to me, and the second one just sounded like English with a very heavy accent. How does that make it a different language?
Am I to assume that you consider Danish and Norwegian to be the same language?
I think that it's quite common for native English speakers to believe that two linguistic varieties cannot have a high level of mutual intelligibility if they are to be classified as 'distinct languages'. In many other parts of the world, it is very normal to think of speech and text which one understands to a large extent as still constituting a different language from one's own.
Porthos wrote:
And Benjamin. I have a question. Do most lowlanders speak this "Scots", or do only a minority speak Scots dialect?
The received wisdom is that about 20% of Scottish people speak Scots. This is based on census data, as Scots is officially classified as a minority language by the government.
Porthos wrote:
And in school they speak in standard English, no?
I really have no idea. I'd imagine that pupils would be likely to speak Scots in areas where it is common. I also understand that they usually study some Scots literature at school.
Scottish Standard English (known as 'SSE') is essentially the sociolect of the middle class people in Scotland, i.e. not most of them. However, many people speak a regional dialect of Scottish English.
After listening to that Scots expample I'd definitly say 'tis a different Language
Now really, with my Polish knowledge I was always able to understand Slovak that is supposed to be a different language . So this might be a similar case here.
I think that it's quite common for native English speakers to believe that two linguistic varieties cannot have a high level of mutual intelligibility if they are to be classified as 'distinct languages'. In many other parts of the world, it is very normal to think of speech and text which one understands to a large extent as still constituting a different language from one's own.
Yeah, this might be so, as we aren't used to any language being all that similar to our own.
Quote:
Am I to assume that you consider Danish and Norwegian to be the same language?
I can't say for sure. I'm not all that familiar with Danish and Norqegian to form an educated opinion on the matter. But I would say that if Danish and Norwegian share more than 90% mutual intelligablility, then I would consider them dialects. If this is the case, then chances are, they would be considered dialects if it weren't for national borders.
As for these Scots speakers...... Do they also speak standard English?
I tend to think surely yes. In Europe when we speak about "regional languages" of "dialects", one must understand that it is at another "scale" - which doesn't prevent the national scale to exist.
For exemple I just come from Barcelona, which is part of Catalunya. It means that it exist there a regional language; Catalan. But Catalunya is also part of Spain, and so Catalunyans are Spanish (some are French also) and speak perfectly both languages, Catalan and Castillan.
As for these Scots speakers...... Do they also speak standard English?
They would definitely understand Standard English, yes. Some might be able to switch naturally to Scottish Standard English (especially in writing), some might sort of make their Scots more 'English-like' and would write using English spelling conventions, whilst others might just speak Scots and 'be understood'.
As I say, the received wisdom is that about 20% of Scottish people speak Scots, but some people have claimed that this figure is actually either too high or too low.
I think that it's quite common for native English speakers to believe that two linguistic varieties cannot have a high level of mutual intelligibility if they are to be classified as 'distinct languages'. In many other parts of the world, it is very normal to think of speech and text which one understands to a large extent as still constituting a different language from one's own.
Yeah, this might be so, as we aren't used to any language being all that similar to our own.
I often wonder whether it's more because native English speakers are not used to trying to understand Dutch or German, rather than because the language is so different. As I say, when I was in a situation where I had to understand spoken German without really having learnt German much myself beforehand, I sort of managed it.
I often wonder whether it's more because native English speakers are not used to trying to understand Dutch or German, rather than because the language is so different. As I say, when I was in a situation where I had to understand spoken German without really having learnt German much myself beforehand, I sort of managed it.
More than likely your German hosts used a lot of hand gestures and pointed at things to aid you in understanding.
But the fact is, the vast majority of English speakers can't understand much of Dutch or German in the same way Romance speakers can understand their languages.
Here, in the U.S., most people I encounter have no clue that English is even related to German and Dutch. And a lot of people will assume that French is more closely related to English than Dutch or German are, because they can actually understand more French words (written) than they can Dutch or German. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
More than likely your German hosts used a lot of hand gestures and pointed at things to aid you in understanding.
Not really — in the first evening I was there, they were talking in detail about catching the bus, and their jobs, and about what they thought about alcohol. You're right that they weren't using overly complex language when talking to me, but I really did understand what they were saying. And to be honest, I really do think that you'd understand a lot more spoken German if you spent maybe a few days learning the basics of it, and if you actually believed that you could understand it, if you know what I mean. And probably even more so with Dutch.
Even though Scots very well might classify as a separate language, I think it can be a bit dangerous to let it be classififed as that. If a regional variety is classified as a separate language, as has happened to a large degree in France, I think it´s too easy for the state to say: "This is another language! You can´t expect to do serious stuff in this language. Take it back to the regional mumbo-jumbo folk music festival which we have funded for the sake of European diversity and come back when you have learnt proper standard X. We don´t play politics here, even if we like to give that impression!"
Unless there are very well-established traditions for diglossia and code-switching between acrolects and basolects, I think society´s policy should be to do its utmost to understand different varieties. People from the centres and/or elites have so many advantages already, that its just fair to expect them to understand broad Scots, Low German or whatever regional language we are talking about. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Even though Scots very well might classify as a separate language, I think it can be a bit dangerous to let it be classififed as that. If a regional variety is classified as a separate language, as has happened to a large degree in France, I think it´s too easy for the state to say: "This is another language! You can´t expect to do serious stuff in this language. Take it back to the regional mumbo-jumbo folk music festival which we have funded for the sake of European diversity and come back when you have learnt proper standard X. We don´t play politics here, even if we like to give that impression!"
Unless there are very well-established traditions for diglossia and code-switching between acrolects and basolects, I think society´s policy should be to do its utmost to understand different varieties. People from the centres and/or elites have so many advantages already, that its just fair to expect them to understand broad Scots, Low German or whatever regional language we are talking about.
See to me, when we're talking about "dialects" Scots is what I think of. Basically the same language, but a regional variety with a drastically different phonology, a few distinct words, and maybe a couple dozen grammatical differences. To me, that is a dialect. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
See to me, when we're talking about "dialects" Scots is what I think of. Basically the same language, but a regional variety with a drastically different phonology, a few distinct words, and maybe a couple dozen grammatical differences. To me, that is a dialect.
Even though you know that that is not the definition which is used by actual linguists?
See to me, when we're talking about "dialects" Scots is what I think of. Basically the same language, but a regional variety with a drastically different phonology, a few distinct words, and maybe a couple dozen grammatical differences. To me, that is a dialect.
Even though you know that that is not the definition which is used by actual linguists?
Yes. Because this is how you think of it from an average person's perspective.
And I promise you this. You can walk around anywhere in the U.S., and you will never hear anyone off the street say, "Well, we say this in my dialect", as you might find in Britain. We don't think of ourselves as having any dialect because the differences between regions are not enough to serve as an obstacle to communication. We don't have the same situation as you do, where you can drive to a different part of your small country and enter a pub, only to find that you can't understand half of what the local townspeople are saying. The differences between regions here are mainly limited to a variation in accent, and in layperson's terms, that does not constitute a dialect. Whereas it sounds to me that in Europe, there are dialects in various regions.
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