Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: Teaching Scottish English
I read somewhere that there was a language school that was teaching Dutch students Scottish English, since it avoids a lot of the trickier aspects of RP for most Europeans. Apparently the students felt that they were learning a non-standard form of English and complained and the programme was cancelled. Has anyone heard of this before, and if so, do you know where I could get more information about it? It seems like it might be a good idea. For those non-native speakers of English: how did you decide which form to learn? I presume RP and General American are the only options in most of the world, but would you consider learning Scottish English if it would be easier to pronounce? _________________ L'homme est comme Dieu l'a fait et un peu pire/ L'homme est le seul animal qui détruit pour le plaisir
Which variety of Scottish English did they teach: the Edingurgh or the Glaswegian version? (The Edinburgh variety has higher prestige.) Did they only teach the pronunciation or grammar as well?
I have nothing against teaching, say, Standard Edinburgh Scottish. Of course, I have nothing against teaching Scottish vernacular per se, but it might cause some problems, especially if not only pronunciation but (non-standard) grammar is taught. Varieties other than RP or GA are not tolerated everywhere in European (non-English-speaking) countries. I can't speak for other countries but in Hungary people seem to have an obsession especially with Standard British English, which they fallaciously equate with RP and if you *slightly* differ from that (like me, for example), you don't speak British English at all in their book or you simply speak American English. (The same thing here in Germany, really.) The other extreme is when parents start complaining that you don't teach American English (sic! - which version???) to their children, because they want their children to speak American English. Well, rough luck. As for me, I couldn't care less which variety of English my children are going to learn - the important thing is that they *learn* to communicate effectively. /ESL/EFL-rant over/
From the point of view of a non-native English speaker (a native Hungarian), both varieties of Scottish English are a lot easier than RP or General American (or other non-standard varieties, which are out-of-the question as far as EFL/ESL is concerned) because of the abscence of diphthongs.
From a strictly Hungarian perspective, the most suitable variety for learners would be Irish English as its pronunciation is very similar to "Hunglish". It's not unusual that Hungarians are mistaken for Irish abroad (in the English-speaking world as well). _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
SSE (Scottish Standard English — essentially Bourgeois Edinburgh) uses in standard formal form basically the same grammar and vocabulary as RP; the only significant difference is the pronunciation. I can see no rational objection to the teaching of SSE, and I'd actually recommend it for some of the reasons that Liz mentioned — it's easier to pronounce for native speakers of many languages. There are no social barriers to someone who speaks SSE — if anything, these days speaking RP is probably a far greater hinderance than speaking SSE, although I'd imagine that a lot of people outwith Britain/Ireland are unaware of this.
Probably the most significant non-phonological difference between formal SSE and formal RP would be the perhaps slightly unfamiliar word used on the sign on this photograph taken in Scotland:
There are no social barriers to someone who speaks SSE — if anything, these days speaking RP is probably a far greater hinderance than speaking SSE, although I'd imagine that a lot of people outwith Britain/Ireland are unaware of this.
Absolutely. It's so prestigeous that it's almost stigmatised. It isn't advantageous to sound "posh" nowadays. You'll say...ve die will come when ye 'ave to spake loik vet to ge' a job, innit? Jus' loik ve Quaine...moi 'usband an' oi.
PS: Don't let appearances deceive you...I'm not a prescriptivist by any stretch... And sorry for the awfully vague approximation of transliteration above...I'm hopeless at it today. I tried to be as accurate as possible, and that might be the reason why it is hard to decipher. I hope you manage... _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Absolutely. It's so prestigeous that it's almost stigmatised. It isn't advantageous to sound "posh" nowadays. You'll say...ve die will come when ye 'ave to spake loik vat to ge' a job, innit? Jus' loik ve Quaine...me'usband an' oi.
LOL! It's amighzink vow, ow sow mennoy people 'ave critissoized may fooah not spaykink loik vat loik man!
SSE can still be seen as fairly posh in Scotland, but the really posh Scottish people speak RP anyway. It's always interesting watching First Minister's Questions in the Scottish Parliament — the Presiding Officer speaks RP, even though he's lived in Scotland all his life; Jack McConnell shouts continuously at Alex Salmond in his very non-SSE dialect; Annabel Goldie tries to make jokes in her rather posh SSE; and it's always funny seeing Nicol Stephen trying to be charismatic. Alex Salmond himself has something of the 1950s about him — if I were having a conversation with him, he'd speak to me patiently and patronisingly, and I'd nod and say 'yeah' every few seconds, unable to make any valid contribution of my own.
I think I'm going to make a conscious effort to turn my RP into SSE once I've moved to Scotland.
LOL! It's amighzink vow, ow sow mennoy people 'ave critissoized may fooah not spaykink loik vat loik man!
Yep, mite! It's sumtoimz jus' ve opposite in may* kise...wheneva oi'm troin' to spake a bi' more reylaxed, may* professa tells may vet oi'm emulitin' Jaimie Oliva...Wha' a shime! Oi'd neva spake loik vet, neva eva!!!
Benjamin wrote:
and it's always funny seeing Nicol Stephen trying to be charismatic.
Actually, you can hear traces of a Scottish accent in his speech, can't you? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?
Benjamin wrote:
I think I'm going to make a conscious effort to turn my RP into SSE once I've moved to Scotland.
Don't fake it for God's sake! At least don't do it consciously...They'll certainly notice it when your native RP intonation patterns start to creep in...I think we, non-native speakers, have considerable advantage over you - we *can* fake it because it's not faking. We use the accent what we've learnt, so, by definition, we can't really have a fake accent. Or can we...? Of course, we can, but we have at leat one good excuse!
*may=me=my (non-standard) _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
and it's always funny seeing Nicol Stephen trying to be charismatic.
Actually, you can hear traces of a Scottish accent in his speech, can't you? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?
I can, yes. Although I sometimes think he sounds slightly North American.
Liz wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I think I'm going to make a conscious effort to turn my RP into SSE once I've moved to Scotland.
Don't fake it for God's sake! At least don't do it consciously...They'll certainly notice it when your native RP intonation patterns start to creep in...I think we, non-native speakers, have considerable advantage over you - we *can* fake it because it's not faking. We use the accent what we've learnt, so, by definition, we can't really have a fake accent. Or can we...? Of course, we can, but we have at leat one good excuse!
Haha — I have a kind of very posh RP-influenced SSE in mind, which won't really involve much change at all. I'm hoping though that it won't really involve much conscious effort on my part, and that my speech will just change to be more like that of the people around me.
Do you think that Robin Harper sounds Scottish at all? Apart from teaching English in Kenya for a short time about 30 years ago, he's lived in Scotland all his life. I'd say he essentially speaks RP, but I can sometimes hear some Scottish elements, like rolled Rs. You can hear him speaking in either of the two videos on this page:
http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/site/id/5748/title/Videos.html
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:
Liz wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I think I'm going to make a conscious effort to turn my RP into SSE once I've moved to Scotland.
Don't fake it for God's sake! At least don't do it consciously...They'll certainly notice it when your native RP intonation patterns start to creep in...
I agree. The Scottishness will start to enter your speech naturally. Maybe you're really good at doing accents and can keep up the effort constantly, but I think people who try to force accents into their speech sound pretty...forced.
Although I sometimes think he sounds slightly North American.
Interesting. It was my impression, too. However, just *sometimes* and *slightly*, as you pointed out.
Benjamin wrote:
Haha — I have a kind of very posh RP-influenced SSE in mind, which won't really involve much change at all.
Your decision to cancel your trip down the primrose path makes me feel assuaged. You aren't Tony Blair after all...(Okay, that was an awkward simile).
Benjamin wrote:
Do you think that Robin Harper sounds Scottish at all?
Unfortunately, I can't listen to it right now since I don't have an audio device installed. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Standard Scottish English does have some significant grammatical differences. Consider these few examples:
Standard Scottish English (SSE): This car needs (to be) washed.
Standard English (SE): This car needs washing.
SSE: Seeing that you're tired, go home.
SE: Since you're tired, go home.
SSE: There is none. (regardless of whether "none" is plural or singular)
SE: There is/are none.
_________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
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Of course, we can, but we have at leat one good excuse! 
You aren't Tony Blair after all...(Okay, that was an awkward 