Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: The origins of the English
Here is something I wrote on the topic long ago on Antimoon.
"Here's the scenario, as I think it played out. My opinion is surely up to debate, and I would like to emphasize that this is just my personal opinion, or version of events, the way I see they logically occured.
There were about 3 million Celts in southern Britain after the Romans withdrew from Britannia. The Celts of Britain were never thouroughly Romanized as the Gauls or Spaniards were. Britain was Rome's most distant colony, and its climate and land, was not particularly attractive to Roman colonists, who preferred mediterranean terrain and climates, preferably with olive and wine country. So, there was very little Roman colonization of Britain, and Roman culture's influence was not felt as strongly as it was in Gaul and Spain. Thus, the only segment of the population that was truly Romanized, were the wealthy elite, and only partially Romanized at that. They spoke Latin, while the masses of Britons continued speaking Brytonic languages, and following British customs and culture, and religion.
Now, imagine you are a Briton in the early 400s. Your country has been devastated by plague, low agricultural production, and economic stagnation, for nearly a century. The population of Britain has been on a slow decline. The citizens of Roman Britain are not allowed to take arms, and depend solely on the Roman legions for defense. A large part of the local economy is dependent on the Roman legions stationed there, with entire towns and cities being sprouted up around Roman forts.
Now, it is the year 410 A.D. For the last three centuries, all of southern Britain has been pacified, and under Roman rule, under the Roman legal system and Roman government, and defended by Roman armies. This has been the way of life for generations. Now, all of a sudden, all the Roman troops withdrawl, and exit Britain. Now there is no source of protection against invasion, or internal division. To put it in modern terms, imagine you are a modern day American from the U.S. Imagine the entire U.S. military force, and domestic police forces, including the CIA, FBI, and NSA, suddenly vanishes. What sort of situation do you think would ensue? Obviously, there would be at least a brief period of anarchy, or chaous, maybe some occasional looting by civilians etc. As intelligent humans, eventually Americans would form groups, and establish a system of order, and provide for each other's common defense and vital needs. Most likely, without a central authority, there would be internal division, and the U.S. would be divided based on regional groups. If you were in Britain, different tribes would gather together under a powerful clan, and form seperate nations, which they did. At this point, the newly created regional governments would probably strive to restore order, and provide for basic civil sanitary needs, establish an army etc. This, the fractured kingdoms of Britain did. But, this rebuilding of order would be inferior to the former system of things, because it would take much time to rebuild society along new lines. The armies formed would not be up to the same tasks that a well established army was. For a modern day example, refer to Iraq. The newly formed Iraqi defensive force is still not up to the task of combating the insurgents.
So, what do you do? You are faced with incoming hordes of thousands of Germans, with poor means of defending yourselves. You are a divided people, fractured into seperate states, and your newly trained armies are not experience enough to withstand the onslaught of Germanic invasions, along with the invasions of Celts from Ireland. So, you hire mercanaries, who are themselves, German. You invited thousands of them to your land, and now, seeing that you are defenseless, they decide to turn on you, as most ancient peoples would. Your land has suffered a severe population decline, and you are not able to put up an adequate defense. So, the result is slaughter. Many are killed, and the smart ones flee. Proof of this exists in the fact that many refugees fleed to Gaul accross the channel, and established Brittany. We know that. So, why can't some believe that the rest of the refugees fled to the "Celtic fringes" of Britain, such as Wales?
In other areas which the Germans conquered and settled, they did not impose their language, religion, or culture on the native people. They adopted the local customs. But, England to this day, remains a Germanic culture. The reason I believe, lies in the fact that the English people descend from the Anglo-Saxons, and not mainly from the native Britons.
Genetic studies show that the English are nearly genetically identical to the people of Frisienland, in northern Netherlands. This is consistent with the fact that the languages of these two peoples are very closely related.
Also, being that the genetic studies seem to contradict each other, I think our last option is to observe the actual physical apperances of the English, and compare it to other nations of the British Isles, and to continental Germanic speaking Europe. People from modern day Friseland and Jutland, are very tall, with very high rates of blond hair and blue eyes, etc.
The Welsh, and Irish and others of those type are a fair skinned, dark haired majority, but also with very high rates of red hair. The question is, do the English look more like the Dutch and peoples of Saxony or do they look more like their Briton neighbors? Here are a few examples of Celtic peoples (Welsh, Irish, etc.) who could almost pass for southern Europeans. Their dark features are actually very common in Ireland and Wales, or in the Highlands of Scotland, and it is something that distinguishes them from the English, generally speaking.
No, German girls speaking in German, imitating the much-loved children's animation series Pingu the Penguin.
Honestly, it's German!
Porthos wrote:
Quote:
Imagine the entire U.S. military force, and domestic police forces, including the CIA, FBI, and NSA, suddenly vanishes.
Hmm, the Romans and particularly the Roman army was an important factor in Britannia, but the Roman state was not as omnipresent as the modern American state. While Londonium and central England, where there was urban culture, Roman villas and thermal baths surely experienced a clash of civilizations, Celtic Britons in more remote parts of Britannia might not have noticed the collapse of the Roman Empire. An intriguing question, actually, how romanized and dependent on the Roman state had the Britons become?
Porthos wrote:
Quote:
The question is, do the English look more like the Dutch and peoples of Saxony or do they look more like their Briton neighbors?
And how uniform are the English? Surely the eastern coast was more heavily settled by the Anglo-Saxons than the West Midlands and the Southwest.
Just of interest, Josh, what made you think that the German spoof Pingu video was in Welsh? But actually, I don't think that the girls are actually speaking; they seem to be miming — so they could be Welsh, I suppose.
Well Fredrik, you're a European, so you tell me. Likely, you've been to England, Holland, and Germany. And you've been exposed to much English media, so based on your observations, would you say the English look more British or more Teutonic like the Germans? Just answer one or the other, and don't sidestep the question please. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
The girls are Welsh. I know that for a fact. I actually found them before on youtube under the search of "Welsh girls". They look Welsh, and the words from the visual presentation in the introduction to this particular video are in Welsh, not German. And these three girls have other videos on youtube, several others in fact. The description of the videos also state that the girls are Welsh. And they do other songs in English as well. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Just trust me, they're Welsh. And I don't know very many Germans who have black hair and very dark brown eyes. It's not a typical German look, although there are a few Germans who might look like that. But with that fact aside, they are still Welsh. I know. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I accept that they are Welsh. It's just that the speaking in the background (to which they are miming) is in German.
Quote:
And I don't know very many Germans who have black hair and very dark brown eyes. It's not a typical German look, although there are a few Germans who might look like that.
I've actually seen a lot of people in Germany who look like that.
And I must say that the Welsh and Irish are some of the most attractive people in Europe, other than the Spanish, Portuguese, Italian girls, etc. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject:
Benjamin wrote:
Quote:
Just trust me, they're Welsh.
I accept that they are Welsh. It's just that the speaking in the background (to which they are miming) is in German.
Quote:
And I don't know very many Germans who have black hair and very dark brown eyes. It's not a typical German look, although there are a few Germans who might look like that.
I've actually seen a lot of people in Germany who look like that.
So have I. In fact, one of my former roommates looked like that, and her parents were German.
The girls are Welsh. I know that for a fact. I actually found them before on youtube under the search of "Welsh girls"
LOL, sorry. I'm getting some pornographic images here.....of someone, somewhere, searching for "Welsh girls, only dressed in laverbread".....
I know, I have a dirty mind, in fact a Catholic priest once told me that, when I interviewed him about why he had put pictures of nude, big black men in a book of Egyptian poetry he had translated into Norwegian...
Yes, Porthos, I've been to both Germany, UK, the Netherlands etc. And I do agree that Britons (English, Welsh, Scots etc.) tend to be smaller and swarthier than Germans. Germans are often (especially) in the North, big and blondish. And almost all German children are blond or very blondish-brunette, just as in Scandinavia, while the adults often are not. In Germany, the children almost look like a separate race, not just smaller, but thoroughly blond.
But lots of Germans also look rather dark and southern with big noses. Indeed, a friend of mine who visited me in Germany and observed all the girls of that type who also studied Scandinavian languages and were goths, termed them the "Scandinavist witches"!
Last edited by Fredrik on Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
But lots of Germans also look rather dark and southern with big noses. Indeed, a friend of mine who visited me in Germany and observed all the girls of that type who also studied Scandinavian languages and were goths, termed them the "Scandinavist witches"!
Lol, that reminds me of my (60-year-old) German friend. She's kind of into earth-spirit beliefs and worship as well.
The girls are Welsh. I know that for a fact. I actually found them before on youtube under the search of "Welsh girls"
LOL, sorry. I'm getting some pornographic images here.....of someone, somewhere, searching for "Welsh girls, only dressed in laverbread".....
I know, I have a dirty mind, in fact a Catholic priest once told me that, when I interviewed him about why he had put pictures of nude, big black men in a book of Egyptian poetry he had translated into Norwegian...
Yes, Porthos, I've been to both Germany, UK, the Netherlands etc. And I do agree that Britons (English, Welsh, Scots etc.) tend to be smaller and swarthier than Germans. Germans are often (especially) in the North, big and blondish. And almost all German children are blond or very blondish-brunette, just as in Scandinavia, while the adults often are not. In Germany, the children almost look like a separate race, not just smaller, but thoroughly blond.
But lots of Germans also look rather dark and southern with big noses. Indeed, a friend of mine who visited me in Germany and observed all the girls of that type who also studied Scandinavian languages and were goths, termed them the "Scandinavist witches"!
Don't worry. I abstain from porn. I have all my search engine sites set to strict filtering standards, and besides, there's no porn on Youtube in the first place.
You see I always took it for granted that the English were a seperate ethnic group from the other peoples of the British Isles. I always thought of them as Tuetonic Anglo-Saxons. A lot of literature I have read too, especially those which take place in earlier times, often speak of the Welsh as being shorter than the English. In fact, until the last few generations, the Welsh were generally speaking, two inches shorter than the average Englishman. But now that I've thought about it, the English aren't usually seen as being as big or as frequently blond as the Dutch, Germans, or Scandanavians.
So Fredrik, if you had to guess just based on the looks of the average Englishman, would you say that he was of British descent, or Tuetonic? Because surely you can see that the English don't have the same propensity toward the very dark features which many Irish and Welsh possess. At the same time, they have a lower rate of blondness and other characteristically "Tuetonic" features. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Don't worry. I abstain from porn. I have all my search engine sites set to strict filtering standards...
LOL, a truly American statement! Seriously, good to hear. But I didn't mean to imply that sort of thing either, your phrasing of "I searched for "Welsh girls"" was just so sweetly naïve that it was tempting to suspect otherwise!
I feel that I have exhausted my fund of racial observations. It has been almost 10 years since I visisted the UK and I didn't do my touristy observations for racial purposes, so it's hard to remember. And I've never been to Ireland.
But since you are so keen on racy females, I can tell you that I remember that two blokes on a camp site in Wales looked on me in awe when I told them I was Norwegian, because they just worshipped Scandinavian girls, British girls were just crap, according them.
I just assumed it was Welsh without really listening to it, as I knew the girls were Welsh based on the description of the video. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
[/img]