That's a little funny, Benjamin. I suppose this identity crisis can be easily resolved if one pauses to consider that a loose definition of a Christian is easily someone who accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. If your church adheres to these basic tenets, you would be as Christian as ancient outposts such as the Orthodox Church in Ethiopia or the Coptic ones in the Middle East.
The thing is, my church does not adhere to any specific tennants and has no creed. Instead, we have three guiding principles -- Freedom, Reason and Tolerence -- and an 'object', which is as follows:
To promote a free and inquiring religion through the worship of God and the celebration of life; the service of humanity and respect for all creation; and the upholding of the liberal Christian tradition.
There has been much debate recently as to whether or not the reference to the 'liberal Christian tradition' should be removed, and some have even questioned the reference to God. Traditionally, we're the people who denied the Trinity and asserted the full humanity of Jesus, viewing hymn as a great, perhaps the greatest ever, religious and ethical teacher, but not uniquely God-incarnate. Probably 99% of us today would still agree with that statement, even though it is not our main preoccupation anymore. This is a wild guess, but I'd be very surprised if more than perhaps 5% of us today regarded Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour -- those of us who consider themselves Christians do so because their spiritual life is centred around Jesus and because they believe that it is acceptable and appropriate to see themselves as such.
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I am sure even the heretical Church of the Latter-Day Saints consider themselves as Christians, even if others beg to disagree.
Yes, they do. I would consider them to be Christians as well.
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Therein lies the fundamental problem of blurring the boundaries between church and state - no church can fully represent the aspirations of the electorate. For example, I am against abortion and yes, my convictions are based primarily on religious teachings. However, I would not like any politician, well-meaning he or she may be, to push for a ban on abortion on purely religious grounds. Any reasons offered must appeal to the rational side of our character and they must obviously be founded on scientific evidence e.g. foetuses showing signs of human behaviour even in the first trimester.
Absolutely.
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However, there would be countries with a long tradition of the church playing a supporting if not a symbolic role to the state. This is acceptable as long as far as local traditions and customs are concerned. So the Thai King is revered as the patron of Theradava Buddhism, the dominant vehicle for enlightenment in South-East Asia. So the Church of England still maintains some trappings of being a state institution.
I do not see anything wrong with it as long as these institutions do not abuse their exhalted positions for selfish gains e.g. using religion as a criterion to restrict people from entering parliament.
Again, I defintely agree. Thankfully, the Church of England no-longer uses its position for selfish gains, even though it has done in the past. My church was illegal until 1813, and it's only in the past hundred years or so that we've been allowed to attend mainstream universities.
The thing is, my church does not adhere to any specific tennants and has no creed. Instead, we have three guiding principles -- Freedom, Reason and Tolerence -- and an 'object', which is as follows:
To promote a free and inquiring religion through the worship of God and the celebration of life; the service of humanity and respect for all creation; and the upholding of the liberal Christian tradition.
There has been much debate recently as to whether or not the reference to the 'liberal Christian tradition' should be removed, and some have even questioned the reference to God.
Benjamin,
Which "God" are you referring to if you recognize all religions (which may equally mean you don't recognize any) and even some think there's no need to refer to God at all?
PS. Do you think we may ask Andre to set up a "Religion" subforum?
Benjamin,
Which "God" are you referring to if you recognize all religions (which may equally mean you don't recognize any) and even some think there's no need to refer to God at all?
I refer to a Universal God. Not a God which is limited by any particular religious organisation or sacred text.
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PS. Do you think we may ask Andre to set up a "Religion" subforum?
Sounds good! It will depend on whether or not André thinks that there would be enough demand for this though.
Not a bad idea. Religion has always been fascinating fodder for discussions (or diatribes) amongst us.
Benjamin: The more you explain about your creed, the more I understand what your church actually believes in. I have been given to understand that you, as a believer, sees your church as one of the many vehicles to know and love God. You believe that no vehicle is inherently better than the other - all paths would eventually lead to Rome.
This is a very inclusive concept and I have to say that I find it a very good idea. Roman Catholics since the reforms enacted by the Second Vatican Council have also adopted a similar approach albeit one which is still far more stringent than yours. To illustrate my point with a real story, I'd begin by telling you that the Virgin Mary was rumoured to have made apparitions somewhere in the now defunct Yugoslavia in the 1980s. This excited many believers worldwide and prompted a pilgrimage to the spot of the supposed apparition. Quite a few Singaporeans joined in this pilgrimage and although they did not see any apparitions of the Blessed Virgin herself, they did hear a story from a fellow traveller who claimed to have seen her.
So this traveller asked her about heaven and whether God'd exclude her Muslim friends (I presume this pilgrim lived in a multicultural society) from His plans. The Virgin Mary replied otherwise, saying that God welcomes everyone who is of good heart and character. In other words, one does not need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven.
This stands in stark contrast to a particular denomination I know i.e. the Baptists, who stridently maintain that Roman Catholics 'will go to hell'. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Benjamin: The more you explain about your creed, the more I understand what your church actually believes in. I have been given to understand that you, as a believer, sees your church as one of the many vehicles to know and love God. You believe that no vehicle is inherently better than the other - all paths would eventually lead to Rome.
Essentially yes. That's not to say though that all beliefs are equally valid and reasonable. Indeed, we may openly criticise certain beliefs. For example, many Unitarians have been and are still involved in campaigns against racism, sexism, homophobia, violence etc. — indeed, Rev Gordon Oliver, the current president of the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists, and former mayor of Cape Town, was a prominent anti-apartheid campaigner. I'm actually really excited, because I'll be meeting him next month.
Of course, our lack of a formal creed has left our doors open to people with a wide variety of ideas. This has led some to question exactly who should and should not consider themselves Unitarians. For example, is it necessary to see yourself as a Christian in order to be a Unitarian? To what extent do earth-centred spirituality, new age beliefs, parapsychology and atheism have a place within our movement? These are all questions which we have been dealing with.
Here is a hymn, written in 1935 by John Andrew Storey, entitled The Living God, which I think sums up the ethos of Unitarianism very well. It is sung to this tune: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/mid/v/i/vienna.mid
Down the ages we have trod
Many paths in search of God,
Seeking ever to define
The Eternal and Divine.
Some have seen eternal good
Pictured best in Parenthood,
And a Being throned above
Ruling over us in love.
There are others who proclaim
God and Nature are the same,
And the present Godhead own
Where Creation's laws are known.
There are eyes which best can see
God within humanity,
And God's countenance there trace
Written in the human face.
Where compassion is most found
Is for some the hallowed ground,
And these paths they upward plod
Teaching us that love is God.
Though the truth we can't perceive,
This at least we must believe,
What we take most earnestly
Is our living Deity.
Our true God we there shall find
Is what claims our heart and mind,
And our hidden thoughts enshrine
That which for us is Divine.
I refer to a Universal God. Not a God which is limited by any particular religious organisation or sacred text.
So tell me what differs Unitarianism from Pantheism.
Pantheism is the belief that the universe itself and everything within it is God. I think that that viewpoint is described in the third verse of the hymn which I posted above:
There are others who proclaim
God and Nature are the same,
And the present Godhead own
Where Creation's laws are known.
As far as I'm concerned, one could easily be a pantheist and a Unitarian, or a Unitarian-Pantheist for those of us who like hyphenated titles. However, it is not necessary to be a pantheist in order to be a Unitarian. Equally, not all pantheists would fit into Unitarianism either.
As far as I'm concerned, one could easily be a pantheist and a Unitarian, or a Unitarian-Pantheist for those of us who like hyphenated titles. However, it is not necessary to be a pantheist in order to be a Unitarian. Equally, not all pantheists would fit into Unitarianism either.
How many Unitarians are there in the world right now? Are there any in Poland?
Although there have been non-Trinitarian Christians since the time of Jesus, the first beliefs remotely resembling modern Unitarianism arguably started in Poland. The Polish Brethren, often known as Antitrinitarians, Arians or Socinians, was a Protestant Church in 16th century Poland which rejected the Trinity, the existence of Hell and the divinity of Jesus. They were also against the death penalty, military service and private property, supported separation of the Church and State and advocated equality. They were expelled from Poland and emigrated to England, the Netherlands and East Prussia.
As for how many Unitarians there are in the world today, here are the estimates from the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists and a number of other books I've read for various countries:
United States — 160,000
Romania — 80,000
Hungary — 25,000
India — 9,000
Britain — 6,000
Canada — 6,000
Germany — 2,000
Philippines — 2,000
Czech Republic — 600
Australia — 400
Denmark — 300
Indonesia — 250
South Africa — 200
Netherlands — 150
New Zealand — 100
Pakistan — 100
Poland — 80
Spain — 55
Sri Lanka — 25
Finland — 22
Russia — 15
There are other small communities elsewhere, but I don't have the numbers for them. Their numbers wouldn't make much difference to the overall picture anyway. The number of Unitarians in the world is sometimes estimated as about 400,000, partly because significantly more Americans identify as Unitarians on the census form than the official numbers of the denomination suggest.
United States — 160,000
Romania — 80,000
Hungary — 25,000
India — 9,000
Britain — 6,000
Canada — 6,000
Germany — 2,000
Philippines — 2,000
Czech Republic — 600
Australia — 400
Denmark — 300
Indonesia — 250
South Africa — 200
Netherlands — 150
New Zealand — 100
Pakistan — 100
Poland — 80
Spain — 55
Sri Lanka — 25
Finland — 22
Russia — 15
What struck me the most is the difference between Romania/Hungary and other European countries (excluding UK).
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Although there have been non-Trinitarian Christians since the time of Jesus, the first beliefs remotely resembling modern Unitarianism arguably started in Poland. The Polish Brethren, often known as Antitrinitarians, Arians or Socinians, was a Protestant Church in 16th century Poland which rejected the Trinity, the existence of Hell and the divinity of Jesus. They were also against the death penalty, military service and private property, supported separation of the Church and State and advocated equality. They were expelled from Poland and emigrated to England, the Netherlands and East Prussia
Yes, but according to the Polish version of Wikipedia unitarianism was brought to Poland in 16th century but started elsewhere by a Spanish doctor and theologist Michal Serwet (it's Polish spelling).
Yes, but according to the Polish version of Wikipedia unitarianism was brought to Poland in 16th century but started elsewhere by a Spanish doctor and theologist Michal Serwet (it's Polish spelling).
Yes — Michael Servetus. I understand that he went to live in Poland and started the first proper community which bore some resemblance to modern Unitarianism there. I'm afraid I don't know all that much about the history though.
As for Romania and Hungary, you might be interested to know that essentially all Romanian Unitarians are actually ethnic Hungarians living in the mountains in Transylvania. One of the large churches in Cluj-Napoca was originally Unitarian until it was taken by the Catholics when the Unitarians were forced to leave the city.
Where and how often do you meet?
What are you doing during such meetings/services?
Do you pray?
Where do you get money from for your upkeep?
Thanks in advance. :)
My pleasure! :) I'll just mention though that I'm talking primarily about British Unitarians here because that's what I know most about. Things will be done differently elsewhere, even though we are all Unitarians. As a general rule, countries which are more similar to Britain on the whole will have Unitarians that are similar to British Unitarians — so by the time you get to India, their practices will be quite different.
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Where and how often do you meet?
We usually meet in Unitarian churches, chapels and meeting houses for about an hour on Sunday, normally in the morning. In cases where there are enough Unitarians to form a congregation but no specific Unitarian building, we often borrow Quaker meeting houses or rooms in colleges etc. When there are just a few Unitarians, we meet in each-other's homes.
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What are you doing during such meetings/services?
Generally speaking, it is quite similar to Protestant Christian services. We usually have an ordained minister (the German Unitarians don't though) or lay-pastor who leads the service and gives a sermon. The service will also include readings, hymns, and collective and silent prayers/meditations. In my church, we say the Lord's Prayer and optionally celebrate Communion once a month, although many Unitarian congregations don't do this.
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Do you pray?
Some of us would be uncomfortable with the idea of 'praying' and would prefer instead to 'meditate'. I tend to see it as essentially the same sort of thing.
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Where do you get money from for your upkeep?
1. Investment in land and other property
2. Large donations from wealthy members
3. Money left by dead people in their will
4. Collections in services
5. Sale of Unitarian books and magazines
6. Fees paid by members of the General Assembly
7. Probably a number of other things I don't know about
Essentially, I think that that list above would be similar to that of many larger independent denominations, such as Methodists and Baptists.
Now some personal questions :wink: . If you find them too personal you don't need to answer.
1.Do you believe in God? (someone can say I’m asking nonsense but since you’ve mentioned that some Unitarians doubt it so I want to make sure)
2.Do you believe God interfere with our life?
3.Do you believe in eternal life?
1.Do you believe in God? (someone can say I’m asking nonsense but since you’ve mentioned that some Unitarians doubt it so I want to make sure)
Yes, but you're right that not all people who consider themselves Unitarians do (some Unitarians would argue that atheists cannot really be Unitarians though). Essentially, I'd agree with all the lines from the hymn which I posted above, except for these two in the second verse:
And a being throned above
Ruling over us in love.
However, I accept that that view of God is perfectly valid for some people.
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2.Do you believe God interfere with our life?
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. I don't believe that there is an external being that plans my daily life for me, but I accept that I could be wrong.
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3.Do you believe in eternal life?
I believe that we go on living in the minds of those who remember us. I don't believe in a literal Heaven or Hell, if that's what you mean. I suppose I sort of believe in reincarnation somewhat, mainly because I was sort of brought up to believe in it to some extent (a lot of British people seem to believe in reincarnation). However, Unitarians tend not to think too much about what might happen when we die. Instead, we generally view conduct during this life as the most important.
I am given to understand that Unitarianism is more of a philosophy than a religion.
But then, religion doesn't necessarily have to incorporate a Higher Being. Football is religion to some and of course, die-hard supporters would argue that football has a pantheon of deities that had achieved legendary statuses.
Conclusion: Unitarianism has many overlapping shades of grey with an esoteric and mystical branch of Buddhism. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
To illustrate my point with a real story, I'd begin by telling you that the Virgin Mary was rumoured to have made apparitions somewhere in the now defunct Yugoslavia in the 1980s. This excited many believers worldwide and prompted a pilgrimage to the spot of the supposed apparition. Quite a few Singaporeans joined in this pilgrimage and although they did not see any apparitions of the Blessed Virgin herself, they did hear a story from a fellow traveller who claimed to have seen her.
It happened in Medjugorje, a small village in what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina. Needless to say what happened in this very region of Yugoslavia a couple of years later. I'm not saying that the two things have anything in common but it's strange anyway.
Last edited by KSa on Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
I believe that we go on living in the minds of those who remember us. I don't believe in a literal Heaven or Hell, if that's what you mean. I suppose I sort of believe in reincarnation somewhat, mainly because I was sort of brought up to believe in it to some extent (a lot of British people seem to believe in reincarnation). However, Unitarians tend not to think too much about what might happen when we die. Instead, we generally view conduct during this life as the most important.
Any more? :)
Regarding reincarnation, this is a concept completely unfamiliar to me taking into account my religious and cultural backround. Whatever reasons lay behind it, I think it's also sort of longing for eternity.
How does your church stand on homosexual marriage and abortion? I recognize Jesus as God's son. I don't believe in the trinity, but I believe that Jesus was sent by his father, God, to fulfill a purpose on earth, which was to sacrifice his life that all men may gain everlasting life, and to preach the news of God's kingdom. I say Jesus was definitely of divine origin, just not God himself.
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