Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: Æ vil fara til Mæxico!
With this old Norwegian hit (meaning "I wanna go to Mexico"), I just wanted to ask whether you people in Souhthwestern US actually go to Mexico all the time? I assume it must be very tempting having such an exotic place so close to you? How exotic is Mexico by the way? How popular is it to go there and where do people go? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Æ vil fara til Mæxico!
Fredrik wrote:
With this old Norwegian hit (meaning "I wanna go to Mexico"), I just wanted to ask whether you people in Souhthwestern US actually go to Mexico all the time? I assume it must be very tempting having such an exotic place so close to you? How exotic is Mexico by the way? How popular is it to go there and where do people go?
Hi Fredrik! I just wondered cause you wrote "Æ" instead of "jeg". Is the former just used in a Norwegian dialect? _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Æ vil fara til Mæxico!
Fredrik wrote:
With this old Norwegian hit (meaning "I wanna go to Mexico"), I just wanted to ask whether you people in Souhthwestern US actually go to Mexico all the time? I assume it must be very tempting having such an exotic place so close to you? How exotic is Mexico by the way? How popular is it to go there and where do people go?
Hah, it's funny that you think of it as such an exotic place. Naturally for us, Mexico is not as *exotic* as say, Thailand. For me in particular, it is not very exotic at all, as I have a lot of family in Mexico. And I would say I go there about three times a year. A lot of young men go accross the California border to Tijuana to get laid and party off cheap liquor and fireworks and such. Those who can afford it sometimes choose the exotic coastal/tropical destination of Cancun in the far south of Mexico. I have family in Sonora but I normally just visit my uncle and cousins in Baja California. He has a semi-mansion in Cabo San Lucas which is also a tourist destination with sunny beaches. Having spent some of my life growing up in Hispanic neighborhoods in California, Mexico is not all that exotic. For me, a place like Quebec would seem far more exotic and alien than Mexico. Also, where I live now, 70% of the people are Mexican. So, other than the white neighborhoods, much of the town is of a Mexican culture and a Mexican ambiance permeates everything. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I've heard from a American from LA that is was not very usual to go to Mexico for people of non-mexican origins. For the people who have a family link it is another story I think, as Josh said.
The Californian guy in question was telling me that most californian didn't see really for what reason they would go to the surrounding areas of mexico, which have about the same climate than southern california but quite poor, and if they want to be put in a mexican culture they would just go the the "hispanic"(mexican-American) districts of LA.
I think it is about the same link that we have with Algeria. It is where a lot of immigrants are coming, our southern coast are quite close and climatically similar to them, and our histories are mixed. some districts of Marseille for exemple have a real north African ambiance, and I actually don't really need to to go Algiers to taste it, but without the problems of travelling in a quite poor country - most of the french people who travel to Algeria are actually of north african origins and go there to see their relatives. In Morocco and Tunisia it is much more turistic, so basically different to Algeria in this point of view.
I personally plan to go to Mexico for march. I would be curious to discover this country. I don't know really which parts I'll visit, since it is too big to see more than one region in one week only.
I think I'll see mexico city and surroudings, and then maybe to Yucatan.
Hah, it's funny that you think of it as such an exotic place
Yes, I personally don't see Mexico as been more exotic than the US.
And some countries of latin America such as Argentina much less.
Yes, for a Frenchman, a place like Argentina would probably be the least alien place in the Hispano-American world. Argentina is the most "Latin" or "European" of the Latin-American countries. Certain parts of Mexico and Central America have a very strong indigenous influence on the culture and people. In the Carribbean there is a strong Afro influence in many places. But even in Central America and large parts of Peru, where the indigenous culture and population is possibly the most pronounced, there are still segments of society and regions within those countries that are very Hispanic. I find it funny that my family will often try to glorify the past of the Aztec and other indigenous people, and speak badly of the Spanish, while we have almost nothing in common with the entirely indigenous people who are of a different culture, language, and race. I actually spent some time in a Mayan village while in southern Mexico and the people were very hospitable, but I felt like I was in a completely alien place. Most people didn't speak Spanish, and if they did, it was heavily accented and broken, thus making communication rather difficult. But the well educated Mayans speak a beautiful version of Spanish, due to the strong phonological substratum which gives the spoken tounge a sing-tone effect. If you are in an upper class part of a city, things are very Hispanic. The architecture, everything. But I would say Argentina, as a whole, is the closest thing to Spain in Latin America, and thus, carries the most cultural affinities with France out of the Latin American countries. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
But I would say Argentina, as a whole, is the closest thing to Spain in Latin America, and thus, carries the most cultural affinities with France out of the Latin American countries.
Yes, but it has also strong links with Italy, and other European countries, France in particular. Carlos Gardel, the most famous Argentinean tango singer was born french before his family moved to Uruguay and then Argentina, that's maybe explain why Tango had so much succes in France since the 20's, and was incorporated in "musette" songs.
On the other hand, buenos aires is one of the rare cities of the world where you can find a almost parisian architectural ambiance.
I never really think of Argentina as having much French influence. To me Argentinians are an American hybrid of Italians and Spaniards who speak sloppy Spanish and drink wine. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I never really think of Argentina as having much French influence. To me Argentinians are an American hybrid of Italians and Spaniards who speak sloppy Spanish and drink wine.
It is true that a most of Argentineans are mainly of Italian and Spanish origins. It have also have been an important french immigration to argentina, especially from the south-west.
on a urban/arch point of view BA can have a certain "parisian feel", more than italian one :
Even the cars are generally European ones (Renault, Peugeot, Fiat), while most American countries have few of them :
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Æ vil fara til Mæxico!
Icke wrote:
Hi Fredrik! I just wondered cause you wrote "Æ" instead of "jeg". Is the former just used in a Norwegian dialect?
Yes, it's trøndersk, the dialect of Trondheim and the surrounding region (Trøndelag). Lots of æ in Trondhjæm!
Trøndersk school lunch break conversation:
Æ e i A æ å æ = I am in (class) A, I too!
Porthos wrote:
Quote:
Hah, it's funny that you think of it as such an exotic place.
Sorry, but I do! LOL! But even the US sounds kind of exotic to me. Mexico kind of sounds fascinating because I don't know whether it has more of the ambience of the US or more of the ambience of its poorer Central and Latin American neighbour states?
Thanks for the interesting replies so far. I will have to leave the thread to you for a small week, as I'm going to another exotic place, Moscow, returning shortly before Christmas! _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject:
Mexico still seems exotic to me, since I've never been there -- at least, not since I've been old enough to remember it, and in any case I wouldn't count Ensenada as being exotic, from what I know about it.
Fredrik wrote:
I will have to leave the thread to you for a small week, as I'm going to another exotic place, Moscow, returning shortly before Christmas!
When I went to Russia for the first time (1988), I definitely had the feeling of going someplace exotic. But on my third trip, I experienced something interesting as I was on the bus going from the airport into the city -- the surroundings looked familiar enough that I felt as if I were returning home to San Francisco after a trip.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject:
I would like to see lots of parts of Mexico. However, I've never enjoyed traveling unless I'm either visiting someone or traveling with someone I know. Back in the '70s, I had a standing invitation to stay in Mexico City at the home of the mother of one of my friends. However, in those days I was a starving artist and couldn't manage it. When I eventually did have enough money for a trip to Mexico, my friend was by then definitely an ex-friend, so there went that connection.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject:
Some of you may remember this place from the old langcafe, since I posted something about it there. Ever since I saw a documentary about the eccentric British millionaire Edward James, I've wanted to see Las Pozas, his architectural creation in the jungle in the state of San Luis Potosí.
Mexico kind of sounds fascinating because I don't know whether it has more of the ambience of the US or more of the ambience of its poorer Central and Latin American neighbour states?
Mexico definitely has an ambiance more similar Central America and the rest of Latin America. Catholic, large meztizo population, Spanish speaking, Spanish colonial architecture, more relaxed life, and Hispanic culture. Northern Mexico looks very much like the southwest U.S. It's desert, with a lot of adobe houses and missions and late Spanish colonial architecture, so that it bears a resemblance to the predominantly Hispanic parts of the U.S. southwest, where most citizens are Mexican, such as where I live. There is a saying in Spanish that says "Soy mas Mexicano que nopal", which means "I'm more Mexican than cactus". This of course makes reference to the large part of Mexico that is desert. Central Mexico is brushy and southern Mexico is tropical like Central America. I have been to the far south of Mexico in places like the Yucutan and Quintana Roo and I can say that this area has more in common with Central American countries like Guatemala and Honduras than with northern Mexico. This area feels rather exotic for me too, because most of the people are of Mayan extraction (very short, very dark skinned, huge beak shaped noses, slanted eyes, and round heads with slanted foreheads) and their accent sounds very exotic. The local terrain also contributes to the feeling of being in an exotic place because it's not everday that you are in the jungle. The food eaten here is also very Central American and thus very different from the food I'm used to, which is northern Mexican cuisine. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
And of course, there are parts of Argentina where they speak Welsh.
Yes, altho finding anyone who speaks Welsh fluently in those areas who's not elderly is nearly impossible. Welsh Argentines by this point are nearly completely monolingual in Spanish as it's been several generations since most Welsh immigrants moved to Argentina. Argentina has a similar linguistic history to other nations-of-immigrants such as the US, Canada or Australia in that usually by the third generation the "old country" non-dominant language is either no longer spoken or isn't spoken fluently (for instance, despite the fact that Argentina's populace is of majority Italian descent hardly anyone there speaks Italian natively these days tho some Argentines do study it in school as a subject. I never heard Italian even in Buenos Aires, which has an even higher proportion of Italian Argentines than the national average of 55%).
It depends. If you have family or business in Mexico, you'll go quite a bit, and to hear someone say that they're popping down to Juarez for the day is pretty common. I know someone who crosses the bridge nearly every day.
However, you have to realize that we in the Southwestern US are not close to the GOOD part of Mexico. We ain't next to Acapulco or Mazatlan or Mexico City. We're next to the shitty part of Mexico. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true. It's not pretty, it's not touristy; it's poor and arid and not very exciting (in other words, not that different from what we already see every day!).
The upper part of Mexico that borders on the US is dry desert, and very sparsely populated, just like we are. The nearest big city to where I live is, as I mentioned, Ciudad Juarez, which is right across the ditch from El Paso. Its main claim to fame is the sheer number of dead, raped, and mutilated female corpses found in and around it in the last 10 years -- I believe they're up to about 400 or so. Not exactly a big tourist draw. It's a big, sprawling, ugly city surrounded by huge suburbs of poor shacks -- you can see them as you drive down I-10 into El Paso; they're right next to the freeway. Even Mexicans will tell you it's a shithole, and that other cities further south are much nicer. Palomas is the next largest town; it's a long drive, and most Americans just go there for cheap medication and dentistry -- believe me, you never saw so many dentists and pharmacies packed into one little area, catering to the transborder medical trade. Personally, I find it sad and depressing.
So no; there's nothing exciting about going there. I've been to Palomas once and Juarez twice. I spent 4 days in Puerto Penasco, on the coast. I enjoyed it but again, it was fairly poor and very aggressively aimed at the US tourist trade -- signs in English everywhere. The shopping isn't great -- it's the same stuff you buy here. (In fact, the parking lots at the malls in El Paso are packed with cars bearing Chihuahua license plates, so I suspect the shopping here is better.) The food isn't any different than the food you find here, since we eat tons of Mexican food anyway. The language -- well, you can hear Spanish all day long here as well. So there's nothing particularly exotic about Mexico for us. Somebody from Peoria, Illinois would probably get a huge kick out of it, but for us, it's the same old crap, only poorer, with a scarier legal system, worse hospitals, and water that's known for giving you murderous diarrhea.
Yeah, what Uriel said mostly sums it up. Although Mexico has great tourist destinations like Acapulco or Cancun or Cabo San Lucas. It's just that there really isn't any great place to visit right accross the border. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
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