I recently went to the beautiful town of Franschhoek (French Corner) near Cape Town. Sadly, it was only for two days, and I was attending a conference, so I had little time to take pictures. I did manage to get a few, though. The town was founded by the French Hugenots over 300 years ago.
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The second picture is of the hotel where we stayed... a five star hotel and I had an entire suite to myself! I stayed on the top floor. If you look on the right hand side of the pic, you'll see a blue door. That was the door to my suite, and everthing to the left of it was my suite! Luckily the company paid!
André in Zuid-Afrika
Some more pics from the internet...
André in Zuid-Afrika
Every year the residents celebrate Bastille Day...
Part of the festivities are held at the French Huegenot Monument in the town.
fab
I find funny the "bastille days" style of celebration - I saw this when I was in the US. There is nothing like that in France, the 14th July would never be celebrated that way ! ;)
the same way, the "french district" shows nothing like what we could find in french architecture, but shows colonial features with some English and Dutch details.
When I was in the US, I was staying in a family who claimed to live in a french house - I found it so American ! It is funny that for American "french houses" would mean somthing like these :
It is funny how "un-french" is it
Elaine
fab wrote:
When I was in the US, I was staying in a family who claimed to live in a french house - I found it so American ! It is funny that for American "french houses" would mean somthing like these :
House #4 looks like what is known as "French-Normandy" while House #5 looks like what designers generically label "French Country" (which "country" I do not know!).
I don't think the intention of "French-style" homes is to replicate the houses in France, but to incorporate certain styles found in French home designs. Here's what one website says:
Quote:
French style homes became popular around 1915, when soldiers returning from World War 1 brought ideas they had found in European homes in the French countryside.
Some characteristics of French-style homes:
• Brick, stone or stucco siding on exterior walls
• Steep hipped roof, usually with flared eaves
• Tall, narrow, multi-paned windows
• Shutters on windows
• Sometimes tall second floor windows break through the cornice
• Arched doorway
• Sometimes decorative half-timbering (exposed wood framing) as would be typically seen on an English Tudor style home
• Courtyard containing formal garden, fountain or pool
Now if you ask me, this is what I think of as being Classically French:
Nice pictures btw, André!
André in Zuid-Afrika
Yes, most of the (old) buildings in Franchhoek are in what is called Cape Dutch style. The French started the town, but within a generation or two they'vew adopted the Cape Dutch lifestyle (including language, which is why the town's name is in Dutch, not in French). Many of the farms in the area have Dutch names, although there are also many with French names.
fab
Elaine,
I agree that your exemple has, contrary of those I gave, something "french" in it.
Which does not mean we would find it here, but it is somehow inspired from the aristocratic architecture of the classical period - which is of course ended since a long time - and which concerned only chateaux or official buildings and later some of the "neo-classical" bourgeoise architecture of the 19th century.
the funny thing is that in your exemple this "french" kind of architecture is applied on houses, while it was not originally the purpose.
Generally I think that most styles that are called "french" in the US, are just because using "ardoises" roofs (or "ardoise-looking") - these roofs which are traditionally used in the north-western regions situated north from Loire river. Due to the historical importance of there regions in terms of architecture (were have been developped the french renaissance, thanks to the wish of the kings to buid pleasure hunting residences in the mild Loire valley). Then some of those roof features have developped in other places, especially in Paris region, and became usual for the aristocratic homes. however, south of the Loire valley it generally becomes quite rare and almost absent in the south-east.
I precisely come back form a week end in Chambord, in Loire valley.
the castle is impressive; a geniously mix of the middle ages and the italian renaissance to gave birth to french renaissance; Da Vinci may be for something...
I think what most foreign people seem to think as typical "french" architecture seem to be the one of Loire valley such as Anjou or tourraine regions (where it is also said to have the "purest" form of french), or more generally all the north-western regions - which would include Paris.
Benjamin [inactive]
The adjective 'French' seems to be applied to a lot of things in English, even if they might not be specifically 'French' as such. Here are some other examples:
French pleat:
French plait (pronounced 'plat', at least here):
French kissing:
(Slightly old-fashioned term — it's usually called snogging here now, or making out in America).
French fries (mainly an American term):
(We call these chips — but ours are traditionally thicker, like the traditional Belgian ones).
Deborah
The little girl's hairstyle is called a French braid in the US.
In sewing, this is a French seam (in the US):
A French seam is a seam which encloses the seam allowance on the inside of a sewn item.
It is well suited for sheer fabric that a zigzag or serge stitch would leave a lot of thread visible through the fabric.
It can be used on any fabric to enclose a seam allowance and keep a soft edge to the seam. This works especially well for a person with very sensitive skin.
It's a suave sort of seam, so of course it's labeled "French"!
Benjamin [inactive]
And this is 'French knitting':
Completely different from 'English knitting' and 'German knitting', both of which use two needles. But again, I don't know if the national adjectives used here actually mean anything.
Elaine
french cut
french tips
french inhale
fab
I remember when I was in an American family I was amused how many things they called "french" having nothing french in them: such as "french toasts" or "french fries". I had a hard time to explain that fries were not french but Belgian... and "french toasts" are not consumed here... ;)
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House #4 looks like what is known as "French-Normandy" while House #5 looks like what designers generically label "French Country" (which "country" I do not know!).
I also ask form which "region/country" it could be !! ;)
I'm asking myself, due to the diversity of the traditional habitat in the different regions, between the following main types, which one would be seen as the most tipically french to foreign eyes ?
1. "central-northern" french architecture (here Auxerre, Burgondy)
2. "North-western" french architecture (here Amboise, Tourraine)
3. "central western" (here Vendée)
4. "central eastern" (Here beaujolais region, north of Lyon)
5. "southern mediterranean" (here Saint Tropez, Var)
[/img]
(just to localise them:
)
Deborah
Northwestern is what comes to my mind -- that style looks like the illustrations in fairytale books (as in, stories by Perrault).
greg in noord-frankrijk
Furthering the French series → Excuse my French !
Elaine
Deborah wrote:
In sewing, this is a French seam (in the US):
How funny! I just read that a French seam in French is called la couture anglaise, which seems to follow this curious pattern:
English term --> French term
French disease --> la maladie anglaise
French letter --> la capote anglaise
(take a) French leave –-> filer à l'anglaise
This transmanche rivalry is hilarious.
Benjamin [inactive]
'Central Northern' and 'Northwestern' is the sort of thing I usually think of when I think of 'France', but I know that other styles exist because I've been to the other areas as well.
(By the way — I find the term 'foreigner' offensive).
fab
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(By the way — I find the term 'foreigner' offensive).
Benjamin, I'm sorry, I didn't knew that "foreigner" was a offensive term in English. Which one should I have used intead ?
Quote:
Northwestern is what comes to my mind -- that style looks like the illustrations in fairytale books (as in, stories by Perrault).
Actually that's not surprising knowing that Charles Perrault was originary from Tours (the region of the "chateaux de la Loire"). It is said the castle of Ussé in particular have been an inspiration for disney to draw his vision of the fairy tail catles.
[/img]
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
(By the way — I find the term 'foreigner' offensive).
Benjamin, I'm sorry, I didn't knew that "foreigner" was a offensive term in English.
It's okay — it's just that it can be derogatory and is perhaps a bit old-fashioned, at least here — especially when used to describe other Europeans/Westerners. (To give an extreme example, my grandfather somewhat jokingly refers to Scottish people as 'foreigners' — which is definitely intended to be derogatory, although not entirely serious).
So, I don't see myself as a 'foreigner' in France. But I probably would see myself as a 'foreigner' if I went to, say, Mongolia.
fab wrote:
Which one should I have used intead ?
I'd say: 'person from outside of France'
fab
Quote:
it's just that it can be derogatory and is perhaps a bit old-fashioned, at least here— especially when used to describe other Europeans/Westerners.
really ? or is it just you, who prefer define yourself as "westerner" more than as english.
I personally have a problem with the concept of "western" when concerning a self-identification. for further reasons :
1. the modern usual meaning wich connotes "on the american way of life model"
2. the former meaning wich refers only to the catholic and protestant parts of Europe, concerning the orthodox parts to be somehow of a different "civilisation"... I often found the protestant-based countries often more culturally distant to catholic ones than the orthodox ones.
3. The numerous very different cultures in the so-called "western world", legal systems, languages, beliefs, traditional ways of life (the "modern life" is very similarly the "globalized" one, but still is not a "western" caracteristic, since young morrocans are rap lovers.. are they "westerners" ?)
4. the ambiguity of the "poor countries" of the "western world" - which are often excluded from the concept (are Mexico, Argentina or Brazil western countries? Or Romania ? to me yes, to many other people no). It let the definition be mainly an economic one - which makes it more confuse (are Koreans or japanese westerners ? to me no, but their modern culture and way of life is not so much different to the moden life in Europe...)
Even with the concept of "Europe" I have some difficulties. To me it is clearly a geopolitical concept, but more hard to define on other points.
- geography ? No, Europe is just a part of Eurasian continent, which is not even separated with a clear natural cut (Turquey, Armenia, Russia, Kasakstan, even Iceland or Greenland, etc.. are in Europe ? hard to say...)
- economy ? how in commun between Albania and Norway on this p.o.v ?
- Christianity ? and the muslim countries: Albania, Bosnia, etc Not European ?
- Languages ? No such narrow place in the world speak so many different - (often completly) languages.
- politics? the EU is a reality, but how about the non members ? even inside EU some countries are much less integrated, such as the UK
etc.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
it's just that it can be derogatory and is perhaps a bit old-fashioned, at least here— especially when used to describe other Europeans/Westerners.
really ? or is it just you, who prefer define yourself as "westerner" more than as english.
Essentially, 'foreigner' is not a term I hear very much these days, except from older people — that is why I view it as old-fashioned. I certainly wouldn't describe another person as 'foreign', because I'd be worried that it might offend them or make them feel left out.
fab wrote:
I personally have a problem with the concept of "western" when concerning a self-identification. for further reasons :
1. the modern usual meaning wich connotes "on the american way of life model"
To me, it refers to European and European-ish lifestyles.
fab wrote:
2. the former meaning wich refers only to the catholic and protestant parts of Europe, concerning the orthodox parts to be somehow of a different "civilisation"... I often found the protestant-based countries often more culturally distant to catholic ones than the orthodox ones.
I would view countries such as Russia as 'Western' according to my understanding of the term.
However, I don't really understand why you see such a clear distinction between 'Catholic cultures' and 'Protestant cultures'. Britain and Ireland, for example, are ultimately very similar, yet Britain is supposedly a 'Protestant culture' whilst Ireland is supposedly a 'Catholic culture'. Equally, in Glasgow, for example, there are as many Catholics as Protestants, but there are not really any major cultural differences between those two groups (even if they wouldn't like to admit it).
fab wrote:
3. The numerous very different cultures in the so-called "western world", legal systems, languages, beliefs, traditional ways of life (the "modern life" is very similarly the "globalized" one, but still is not a "western" caracteristic, since young morrocans are rap lovers.. are they "westerners" ?)
4. the ambiguity of the "poor countries" of the "western world" - which are often excluded from the concept (are Mexico, Argentina or Brazil western countries? Or Romania ? to me yes, to many other people no). It let the definition be mainly an economic one - which makes it more confuse (are Koreans or japanese westerners ? to me no, but their modern culture and way of life is not so much different to the moden life in Europe...)
Of course, it's very vague. To be honest, I don't have a clear definition of 'Western' either — I just have a kind of image of 'Western culture'. However, I do see myself as a 'Westerner', and as someone who has a 'Western lifestyle' — as opposed to, say, a traditional Chinese lifestyle. But yes, it's a lot more complicated now, because many traditionally 'non-European' cultures have been heavily 'Europeanised' in recent times.
It might not be so obvious to you how similar life in France is to life in Estonia, but if you went to live in a traditional village in Malawi, then it would be. Of course, there is the question as to whether that's more about economics and standard of living than about 'traditional culture'.
Elaine
fab wrote:
Benjamin, I'm sorry, I didn't knew that "foreigner" was a offensive term in English.
Perhaps that's the case with Benjamin or his surroundings, but personally, I do not find the term "foreigner" to be offensive per se (nor do I find it old-fashioned). What is offensive is the context in which some people use the word. For instance, some recent headlines:
"Taipei economy sags as foreigners leave for China" (Reuters)
"Record number of foreigners to visit Grand Mosque" (Gulf Daily News)
"Foreigners flock to Alicante" (Think Spain)
Nothing wrong with any of those sentences that I can think of.
However, in statements like "You foreigners are a peculiar lot" or "Foreigners are taking all our jobs!" the implication is obvious-- foreigners are unwanted, or different, or people to be excluded and usually stems from an us vs. them mentality. That is what makes the word offensive.
Benjamin [inactive]
I have to agree with Elaine here, actually.
I'm just not used to thinking of France as a 'foreign country', so I would take offence to the suggestion that I would be a 'foreigner' in France. Thanks to the EU, I could move to France tomorrow and get a job there without being viewed as a 'migrant worker' as such. Equally, the fact that I can speak French, and have been to France many times, probably contributes to me not really feeling 'foreign' in France as well.
Of course, many Europeans have not grown up taking the EU for granted, and many have not had as much personal contact with Europeans from other countries as I have. For them, even the neighbouring countries might seem like very 'foreign' and unknown places, whereas for me, they're not.
Elaine
Benjamin wrote:
I'm just not used to thinking of France as a 'foreign country', so I would take offence to the suggestion that I would be a 'foreigner' in France. Thanks to the EU, I could move to France tomorrow and get a job there without being viewed as a 'migrant worker' as such. Equally, the fact that I can speak French, and have been to France many times, probably contributes to me not really feeling 'foreign' in France as well.
That's very interesting. Are those sentiments common among people of your generation? Is the EU really THAT united?
Benjamin [inactive]
Elaine wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I'm just not used to thinking of France as a 'foreign country', so I would take offence to the suggestion that I would be a 'foreigner' in France. Thanks to the EU, I could move to France tomorrow and get a job there without being viewed as a 'migrant worker' as such. Equally, the fact that I can speak French, and have been to France many times, probably contributes to me not really feeling 'foreign' in France as well.
That's very interesting. Are those sentiments common among people of your generation? Is the EU really THAT united?
I'd say it's common amongst people who have a 'sentimental' attachment to the EU, who often embrace the 'European' identity. In this country, it would include primarily younger middle-class people who have friends from many different European countries, who have probably been on school/university exchanges in other European countries, and who may have participated in international EU simulation conferences (as I did in Poland in 2005).
So no, it's probably not very common overall, or even amongst people my age in general. But there is a noticeable minority of younger people from a certain type of background who feel this way — we're sometimes described as europhiles or even europatriots.
Having said all that, my sentimental attachment to the EU does not prevent me from thinking that the institutions are corrupt, nor does it prevent me from opposing certain EU projects.
fab
I agree with Elaine, and she confirms what I tended to think, that the word "foreigner" has nothing offensive in it.
Benjamin, you also finally confirm this. you also confirm what I thought: not that "foreigner" is offensive, but that you are offended that I considered you as a foreigner. I am sorry, and I'd like you not taking it bad or get offended, but clearly, as an British person you not only would be seen as a foreigner in France, but you would BE a foreigner, legally speaking.
but me there is nothing bad to be considered as a foreigner, and nothing bad to be part of different social groups called peoples. these diversity is what makes our relations interesting in this kind of forums. if we were all of the same backgrounds, there would be no real interet of discussing so much in international forums. That you are not part of France and I don't consider yourself par of it doesn't makes you somehow excluded to the consideration or interest we could have to discuss and appreciate each other!
Of course, being part of the EU helps a lot of make the different european peoples having contacts with each other, but it doesn't erase the various cultures and people in one unique european one. and fortunally, because it is the fact of having lands with different cultures and people that makes European union an interesting project. Concerning the UK, the fact it always had few implication in the EU, that it shoose to not enter in Shengen area and not adopting the Euro, that it always favorise its policies on the Atlantic relations, and that it is physically separated from the continent, make it a country quite appart in the EU.
I'm sorry but it would hurt you, and maybe hurt the preconcieved ideas in wich you seem to have been educated (with the idea that France and England are almost the same culture if I analysed well from what you told us in this forum since months), but from a french p.o.v Britain is usually viewed as the most distant of all our neighbours - I don't say it to hurt you or to provoque you, but to make you understand the reality.
I hope you won't take it badly, it wasn't the goal.
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Thanks to the EU, I could move to France tomorrow and get a job there without being viewed as a 'migrant worker' as such.
Well, that's far to be so easy to find a job in another European country is not easy, especially in countries with high enemployment rates like France or Spain. And adapting in the country is not an easy thing - the language of course, having learned a langugage as a foreign one and be able to catch all the subtilities that makes you not foreign in very hard. administratively speaking, knowing the specificities in fields like health is a hard - especially because of the differences in the national systems.
moving and living in a place as an adult would not make you immediatly part of it the same way natives would be. it takes decades and never completly succede.
As you know, since a few years ago I'm thinking moving to Spain. I'll never have the expectations of been considered as a Spanish once there. I know I'll be still view as a french - I can't escape to what I am - and won't take it badly or would feel excluded for these reason, but on my side I would never forget that I am a foreign person in a foreign country.
Be careful, the attitude you said which consist to thinking yourself as not being foreign in another European country could (and will most of the time) be understood as a provocative acting, as an tentative of appropriation ("your country is my country" , or "se croire en pays conquis" as we say in French. This attitude is viewed as very offensive by many people, especially when the "foreign" person claim it by himself, without having been "invited"). I know it is not your case, and you didn't thought it that way, but at my parent little village in Provence, since a few years a big part of the houses of the village have been bought by (rich) British people, who would like to live their "french dream in the sun", looked for a better climate, or what they dreamed as a "art de vivre", thinking themselves to be french... it makes the cost of renting even simple houses becoming impossible to afford for the local, who already suffered from a high uneployement rate. many of these people act as if they were in UK (I saw recently one of them making a scandal because the shop did not spoke English!), forgetting that being a recent newcomer needs to be humble and to accept that there is a very long work of integration to do before stop being recognised as a foreigner (or less).
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I'm just not used to thinking of France as a 'foreign country'
Although I think it was not thought that way, this sentence could easly be understood as a "colonialist" statement, meaning "I thought this country belongs to me"
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Equally, the fact that I can speak French, and have been to France many times, probably contributes to me not really feeling 'foreign' in France as well.
yes, the language is the first key to enter a culture, and also to feel less "foreign" than in a country were you don't understand nothing. But there is a difference between knowing a language (As you do with french or as I do in English) and having spoke it as native language since your birth, without recognisable "foreign" accent, and understanding the subtilities that a native would do.
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Equally, the fact that I can speak French, and have been to France many times, probably contributes to me not really feeling 'foreign' in France as well.
Actually I don't feel that way. I've been many times in countries like England, USA or Spain - I speak the languages - but I've always considered myself, and had been considered as so by the locals. I think I would be unrespectful (and lying) I I'd claim to a Spanish or English person that I wasn't a foreigner or I didn't considered myself as a foreigner. I would feel as if I wish to appropriate myself their culture/country without having speand the long experience it requires.
fab
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That's very interesting. Are those sentiments common among people of your generation? Is the EU really THAT united?
I con't speak for Ben, but I think he is really an exception, especially in Britain - which is probably quite far ahead the less Europhile state.
from what I've hear, UK has recently made laws to protect the imperial mesure system against the "continental system" that the EU is making more important in the British ground.
the UK didn't want to enter the Schengen area wich favorise people movments. and did not dopted the European money. For exemple, as a french If I go to the UK I should cross a sea, change my Euros for Pounds and show a valid passport, while I could go to Spain without.
UK is really appart in the EU.
In the continent the languages (and states structures) are still defining nations. I fond that a good thing. The main reason whay I'm a Europhile for it helps the diverses nations to make them together stronger and more able to keep their diverse identities.
Europe is not a cultural identity, and will not be - defining only as a European as only a political meaning, not a cultural one.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Benjamin, you also finally confirm this. you also confirm what I thought: not that "foreigner" is offensive, but that you are offended that I considered you as a foreigner. I am sorry, and I'd like you not taking it bad or get offended, but clearly, as an British person you not only would be seen as a foreigner in France, but you would BE a foreigner, legally speaking.
but me there is nothing bad to be considered as a foreigner, and nothing bad to be part of different social groups called peoples. these diversity is what makes our relations interesting in this kind of forums. if we were all of the same backgrounds, there would be no real interet of discussing so much in international forums. That you are not part of France and I don't consider yourself par of it doesn't makes you somehow excluded to the consideration or interest we could have to discuss and appreciate each other!
That's fine. It's just that I feel that if we call each-other 'foreigners', we are undermining the European project.
fab wrote:
Of course, being part of the EU helps a lot of make the different european peoples having contacts with each other, but it doesn't erase the various cultures and people in one unique european one. and fortunally, because it is the fact of having lands with different cultures and people that makes European union an interesting project.
I suppose I actually have a kind of 'superiority complex' — I secretly like to see myself as part of a kind of social élite which is beyond local indigenous cultures, emphasising 'high culture' (e.g. classical music etc.) instead. This, I admit, is partly motivated by my general embarrassment about England, and also by my dislike of the British political establishment (but actually not the devolved Scottish one, incidentally).
fab wrote:
As you know, since a few years ago I'm thinking moving to Spain. I'll never have the expectations of been considered as a Spanish once there. I know I'll be still view as a french - I can't escape to what I am - and won't take it badly or would feel excluded for these reason, but on my side I would never forget that I am a foreign person in a foreign country.
Even if you became a Spanish citizen and became a member of the Spanish Parliament?
fab wrote:
Be careful, the attitude you said which consist to thinking yourself as not being foreign in another European country could (and will most of the time) be understood as a provocative acting, as an tentative of appropriation ("your country is my country" , or "se croire en pays conquis" as we say in French. This attitude is viewed as very offensive by many people, especially when the "foreign" person claim it by himself, without having been "invited").
One day, I hope to see a world where all people will be accepted everywhere, regardless of where they originally came from. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I can still dream.
fab wrote:
I know it is not your case, and you didn't thought it that way, but at my parent little village in Provence, since a few years a big part of the houses of the village have been bought by (rich) British people, who would like to live their "french dream in the sun", looked for a better climate, or what they dreamed as a "art de vivre", thinking themselves to be french... it makes the cost of renting even simple houses becoming impossible to afford for the local, who already suffered from a high uneployement rate.
I'm not surprised. Exactly the same thing has been happening in rural areas of Scotland, where lots of rich English people have bought homes and moved, wanting to live amongst the lakes and mountains. Unfortunately, many (not all) of these people adopt a 'White Settler' attitude, failing to integrate properly into the local community. A large part of why these people are disliked is because they often have a condescending attitude towards the 'locals', do not integrate, and do not really 'become Scottish' — that's to say that they have no real interest in contributing to Scotland in order to make it a better place for all.
fab wrote:
from what I've hear, UK has recently made laws to protect the imperial mesure system against the "continental system" that the EU is making more important in the British ground.
It's actually the other way around. I don't even know the old imperial system, because I'm too young.
fab
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That's fine. It's just that I feel that if we call each-other 'foreigners', we are undermining the European project.
I don't think (and don't hope) the project of the EU is to destroyed the peoples, to create a "European nation" instead, to which we don't know of what it consists. A sort of soulless glogalized "western" culture ? 5000 years of rich history would be lost. Fortunally the European project is not that, but is to unite politically and economically various nations and peoples that used to destroyed each other to bring them to go ahead together. quite different.
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I suppose I actually have a kind of 'superiority complex' — I secretly like to see myself as part of a kind of social élite which is beyond local indigenous cultures, emphasising 'high culture' (e.g. classical music etc.) instead.
I think social elites also belongs to local cultures also. French "high" class is not the same as English "high class", etc. even if they have common interests. don't confuse interests with culture, but I think we already have discussed this long time ago ;)
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Even if you became a Spanish citizen and became a member of the Spanish Parliament?
I don't necesary plan to become part of the Spanish parliament. If I did, it would take decades for it - it takes for spanish-born people, so if you had a long adaptation to catch all the subtilities of social life that a native would have naturally... maybe when I'll be 90 year old I'll could !
but claiming now to spanish people that I'm in my country in Spain ground would be something very arrogant I think.
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One day, I hope to see a world where all people will be accepted everywhere, regardless of where they originally came from. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I can still dream.
That everyone would be accepted without any adaptation to the local conditions will be the end of the local cultures, the triomph of comunautarism: a society where in all places all "cultures" are mixed, united under a globalized one. a world where the differences of the societies disseapear, but where the difference between individuals in each place increase, since local culture is not there anymore... Your dream seem a nightmare to me.
That the local societies are still be able to integrate differernt people originary form different places who whish to make part of these society, and who adapt humblely to these is already what we are exeriencing in Europe - without the racism that still unfortunally exist.
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I'm not surprised. Exactly the same thing has been happening in rural areas of Scotland, where lots of rich English people have bought homes and moved,
The difference is that English and Scottish people are part of the same country, share the same British politics - speak the same language, and share mainly the same culture (except for some isolated celtic speaking areas). you can't compare.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
That's fine. It's just that I feel that if we call each-other 'foreigners', we are undermining the European project.
I don't think (and don't hope) the project of the EU is to destroyed the peoples, to create a "European nation" instead, to which we don't know of what it consists. A sort of soulless glogalized "western" culture ? 5000 years of rich history would be lost. Fortunally the European project is not that, but is to unite politically and economically various nations and peoples that used to destroyed each other to bring them to go ahead together. quite different.
I see the EU as something which should be attempting to bring down barriers. As far as I'm concerned, calling people 'foreigners' creates barriers. I have many friends from other countries, and I simply cannot think of them as 'foreigners'.
I will say though that the German Ausländer does not have anywhere near as much of a negative connotation for me as the English foreigner does. Ausländer comes from Ausland, which translates literally into English as 'outland' — so literally, the German term just means someone who is from outwith a country.
I actually don't have any difficulty to think of myself as an Ausländer in Germany (for example), because I'm not from Germany. But I don't really feel like a foreigner in Germany, because I always feel very welcome and generally at home there — no German people I've met have ever treated me as someone who is fundamentally very different/strange/separate from them, so I don't see myself in that way either. But equally, not seeing myself as a foreigner in Germany doesn't mean that I actually see myself as German.
fab wrote:
but claiming now to spanish people that I'm in my country in Spain ground would be something very arrogant I think.
I wish the 'my country', 'your country' mentality did not exist. For me, 'home' is just wherever I happen to live. I do not really have any sense of 'national identity' at all — partly because I don't want to identify with the country I live in (due to feelings of embarrassment, guilt and shame), partly because I tend to associate that sort of thing with the far-right, and partly because there is so much diversity within a country that I see it as a bit meaningless. What is 'English culture' as such? Probably not what most people would think of as 'typically English', anyway. There certainly isn't one English culture, and anyone who asserts that there is (e.g. the far-right) is deluded.
(I don't know exactly what attitude I will have towards Scotland once I've moved there).
fab wrote:
That everyone would be accepted without any adaptation to the local conditions will be the end of the local cultures, the triomph of comunautarism: a society where in all places all "cultures" are mixed, united under a globalized one. a world where the differences of the societies disseapear, but where the difference between individuals in each place increase, since local culture is not there anymore... Your dream seem a nightmare to me.
That the local societies are still be able to integrate differernt people originary form different places who whish to make part of these society, and who adapt humblely to these is already what we are exeriencing in Europe - without the racism that still unfortunally exist.
I actually meant what you said at the end — as I said, I do expect people to integrate into their local communities. But I also think it would be nice if their wasn't such a big distinction between 'us' and 'them' — because ultimately, we're all humans.
fab wrote:
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I'm not surprised. Exactly the same thing has been happening in rural areas of Scotland, where lots of rich English people have bought homes and moved,
The difference is that English and Scottish people are part of the same country, share the same British politics - speak the same language, and share mainly the same culture (except for some isolated celtic speaking areas). you can't compare.
Life in a rich area of London is very different from life in a rural area of Scotland. It's about rich people moving to a poorer area, failing to integrate into the local community, adopting a 'White Settler' attitude, and making homes unaffordable to the local people. It doesn't matter whether the incomers are from 'different countries' or not, because the concept is the same.
fab
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I see the EU as something which should be attempting to bring down barriers. As far as I'm concerned, calling people 'foreigners' creates barriers. I have many friends from other countries, and I simply cannot think of them as 'foreigners'
If you tell that you don't consider me as foreigner, I'll understand that you consider me as English. Which I'm not.
Calling someone as foreigner is not an arbitrary self-denomination, it just says thta two people are not part of the same nations. Like it or not nation still exist in Europe, because different cultures exist in Europe. completly put down barriers would mean deleting the different cultures (included languages) to replace them by a universal one share by anyone (which seem to be the English one nowadays).
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I will say though that the German Ausländer does not have anywhere near as much of a negative connotation for me as the English foreigner does
I think it has negative conotations because you tend to give it for political personal purpose and associate it with other concepts that does not have to be always linked with, and basically doesn't at all. Would you take it as much bad to be called "étranger" ??
[img]But I don't really feel like a foreigner in Germany, because I always feel very welcome and generally at home there — no German people I've met have ever treated me as someone who is fundamentally very different/strange/separate from them, so I don't see myself in that way either. But equally, not seeing myself as a foreigner in Germany doesn't mean that I actually see myself as German. [/img]
been unwelcomed has nothing to see with be not foreigner. At the contrary I'd say that when I recieve foreign friends I tend to give the a much better treatment that what I would do to french friends.
You seem to always associate this word with negative things such as rejection. I actually tend to be more intereted by persons I think to be foreign or different, because there is more chance to learn somthing I didn't knew from them.
That actually what I like when I travel - the feeling of exotism, that is to say the pleasure to feel a foreign people in an exotic and unknown place. spending time to think "oh, it is like that here !, oh people act like this, look like that, speak like this !... etc." :) If I would feel not foreign in another country I wouldn't see much interest to visit it. I don't want all countries looking like France, it seem many anglophones don't feel that way.
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wish the 'my country', 'your country' mentality did not exist. For me, 'home' is just wherever I happen to live.
That is what you think because you are very young and never yet experienced to be living during a long time in a foreign country of another culture. It is not a question of mentality, you don't shoose your country, your nationality of your culture, it is not a choice. It is something that shaped you when a kid, and it is hard to leave it. You'll will dicover once your english identity - you just doesn't seem to like to acept it because your "elitist" english education have made you thinking that "english" was somthing quite culturally poor or uneducated... this is I think a very English self-vision - french anglophiles (as is my girlfriend) have an image of England as a very smart, overeducated with good manners, snobbish, aristocratic culture... (the sort of sheakespear, tea time discussions, english gardens, etc. image)
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I do not really have any sense of 'national identity' at all
having a sence of national identity has nothing to do with having a national cultural identity. for everything I know of you since almost two years I find yourself a very tipical English person. you just don't want to accept it. The relations with your foreign friends will be much more interesting the day when you will be yourself and not trying to act as an "I'm universal" acting. we could exchange things with people who are different, with personas who, having different point of view due to their culture can bring somthing new to you - and reversely you could give them you English point of view of things.
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partly because I don't want to identify with the country I live in
didn't you say a few sentences ago that your home is the place where you'll be living in ? sot you think the place where you've been living all your childhood, in wich you been raised and discovered life would not at all make you part of it ?
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(due to feelings of embarrassment, guilt and shame), partly because I tend to associate that sort of thing with the far-right,
you shouldn't mix cultural identity (wich I repeat we DON'T choose), with politics. Every country in the world has been either negative and positive. Germany with WW2, France with Petain or colonisation, Italy with Mussolini, Spain with Franco and the destroying of precolombian civilisations... So if you want to erase the different national identites and define yourself as just a European you should associate yourself not only with the negative things brought by Britain, but also with those of all the 27 members states of the UE !! remeber : we're not responsible for what did some of our ancestors who used the nation concept to make bad things, especially when it is long time ago... as for extreme right, it exist everywhere. and it exist also other forms of extremisms as much dangerous on the other side, or on the religious side.
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and partly because there is so much diversity within a country that I see it as a bit meaningless.
I never thought England to be a diverse country at all. I think it is probably the least diverse of all major European nations. Each time I've been there, in the west, the south, the north, I was astonished how everything was so tipically similarly English...
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actually meant what you said at the end — as I said, I do expect people to integrate into their local communities. But I also think it would be nice if their wasn't such a big distinction between 'us' and 'them' — because ultimately, we're all humans.
it is not "such" a distinction (nobody claim that a foreigner is not human! because we all are foreigner to anyone else - so we all would be animals! - wich is biologically true though) - it is just a distinction made by the fact that the experiences of people who come from different countries and cultural backgrounds have are not the same.
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fab
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It doesn't matter whether the incomers are from 'different countries' or not, because the concept is the same
not really, the concept may be the same, but the result no. Especially concerning the language. If the village in question is populated by 80% of British people (whose majority of them still live inside "English communities", using English language and not trying to integrate french culture) as it is the case in some town in that area, do these places continue to have a french culture ? English if the language of Scotland, of France no.
Now some more humoritic point of view of the question :
the dream of some British people: ;) ...
the dream for the others :
Deborah
fab wrote:
The relations with your foreign friends will be much more interesting the day when you will be yourself and not trying to act as an "I'm universal" acting.
I think Benjamin is being himself when he feels "universal". It 's rather presumptuous to declare that it's an act and that his relations with his friends would be more interesting if he thought as you do.
fab
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I think Benjamin is being himself when he feels "universal". It 's rather presumptuous to declare that it's an act and that his relations with his friends would be more interesting if he thought as you do.
what I tried to explain, maybe badly, is that there is a huge difference between to "feel universal" and to "Be universal". I mean we can not aknoledge of refuse to think ourself of having a specific cultural background, but yet still having it.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
If you tell that you don't consider me as foreigner, I'll understand that you consider me as English. Which I'm not.
Interesting. All I can say is that the English foreigner perhaps has slightly different connotations from the French étranger, at least here.
For example: Technically, Irish people are 'foreigners' are in England; but only the most bigoted nationalistic English person would really consider an Irish person as a 'foreigner'. But equally, that doesn't mean that people would see them as English either.
fab wrote:
Would you take it as much bad to be called "étranger" ??
Pas nécessairement. Mais le mot « étranger » m'est un peu bizarre — je doute que mes amis français me considèrent vraiment comme « étrange » ou « inconnu ».
fab wrote:
You seem to always associate this word with negative things such as rejection.
Essentially, yes.
fab wrote:
I actually tend to be more intereted by persons I think to be foreign or different, because there is more chance to learn somthing I didn't knew from them.
Same — that's why at school I've always volunteered to host people from different countries and participate on exchanges to stay with people from those countries. I've been to France, Germany and Poland like this, and I've hosted French and Polish people. Equally, when I went to the United States this summer, I thought it was much more interesting that I stayed with 'real people', instead of just staying at a hotel.
fab wrote:
You'll will dicover once your english identity - you just doesn't seem to like to acept it because your "elitist" english education have made you thinking that "english" was somthing quite culturally poor or uneducated...
Admittedly, yes — I have an internalised belief that England and 'English culture' are inferior, especially to France and 'French culture', but also to many other places.
It's what's known as cultural cringe — the belief that one's country/region occupies a 'subordinate cultural position on the periphery' and that 'intellectual standards are set and innovation occurs elsewhere'. The term is usually associated with countries such as Australia and Scotland, but it's probably a mentality which exists amongst some people everywhere for one reason or another.
In a way, I actually do like England — I just find it very difficult to get over my embarrassment about the place.
fab wrote:
this is I think a very English self-vision - french anglophiles (as is my girlfriend) have an image of England as a very smart, overeducated with good manners, snobbish, aristocratic culture... (the sort of sheakespear, tea time discussions, english gardens, etc. image)
Ha — sounds like something out of a Jane Austin novel.
Actually, that was the image that many people in the United States had of England when I was there earlier this year. I'm very surprised though many people in France would have this sort of image of England — I'd always assumed that, elsewhere in Europe, England was seen as a rather dull place with no beautiful cities, lots of alcohol abuse and binge drinking, football hooligans, unhealthy eating, Mrs Thatcher, poorly educated people, people who are incapable of speaking other languages (this is a huge embarrassment for me), with widespread racism and xenophobia, and with the Iraq war.
Many Americans I've met have told me that I essentially conform to their stereotypical image of what 'English people' are like. But I've always assumed that I wouldn't be seen as 'stereotypically English' in most of the rest of Europe at all, because I don't like to think of myself as conforming to the negative characteristics I listed above.
fab wrote:
you shouldn't mix cultural identity (wich I repeat we DON'T choose), with politics.
I find it very difficult not to.
fab wrote:
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and partly because there is so much diversity within a country that I see it as a bit meaningless.
I never thought England to be a diverse country at all. I think it is probably the least diverse of all major European nations. Each time I've been there, in the west, the south, the north, I was astonished how everything was so tipically similarly English...
You don't consider London to be a diverse place then?
fab wrote:
it is not "such" a distinction (nobody claim that a foreigner is not human! because we all are foreigner to anyone else - so we all would be animals! - wich is biologically true though) - it is just a distinction made by the fact that the experiences of people who come from different countries and cultural backgrounds have are not the same.
Significant differences can exist within a country as well though. Technically, both I and someone-else from Birmingham but from, say, a very conservative Islamic background are 'British'. But I couldn't really say that me and this person from the same cultural background, or that we've had the same experiences.
fab
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Pas nécessairement. Mais le mot « étranger » m'est un peu bizarre — je doute que mes amis français me considèrent vraiment comme « étrange » ou « inconnu ».
Non, bien évidement tes amis ne te considèrent ni comme "étrange" ni "bizarre" !
Même si les mots "étrange" et "étranger" se ressemblent (et ont probablement la même éthymologie), ils n'ont absolument pas les mêmes connotations. De même, "étranger" ne signifie pas "inconnu". On peut très bien connaître profondément un pays étranger, ou une personne étrangère.
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Admittedly, yes — I have an internalised belief that England and 'English culture' are inferior, especially to France and 'French culture', but also to many other places.
I used to think the same way when I was teenager, but versus United States and England. When I was a kid, in the eighties and nineties, everything modern, fashion or "cool" was presented as English-speaking. As I said in another thread at that time most of our programs were American movies and series, which spread an image of modernity that I though was not in France. I though France as a rural old fashionned dirty country. At that time I was secretly hoping that Europe would become a sort of USE (united states of Europe), I liked using English word all time because it seemed then so much cooler than french. I progressively change my point of view and took concience of being french and accepting (and discovering) part of my cultures that I ignored or didn't appreciated before. Going to university exchange to USA and Canada helped me to define myself as french, and taking pride of it for the first time - with direct contact with a very different culture (I should say "cultures" because in that university we had a lot of nationalities who went there to learn english as well)
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It's what's known as cultural cringe — the belief that one's country/region occupies a 'subordinate cultural position on the periphery' and that 'intellectual standards are set and innovation occurs elsewhere'
That actually not at all the case of Britain, which may be quite péripherical on a geographical point of view - but not the case in term of centrality. It is the second power of the continent after Germany, its language is the dominenet international language, London is seen as the major economic center of Europe and with Paris as one of the two cultural centers of the contient, etc.
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Ha — sounds like something out of a Jane Austin novel
Actually that's sound as a common image of England... gentlemen, royal family, nobility, horse competitions, fairplay, oxford and cambrigde, Brigthon victorian aristocratic seafront, victorian architecture, etc.
I had only this image of England before to go there, where I discover a more modern one, more similar to the US. I unfortunally also dicovered bad experiences with the "negative england". it exists in all countries. I think if you travel to Seine-Saint-Denis you might have quite unattractive experiences.
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You don't consider London to be a diverse place then?
I didn't spoke of this kind of diversity, but more regional diversity. I think the diversity in England is more similar to the diversity in US or Australia - it is a diversity in term of diverses communities, diverses minorities or "etnies" put together. On this point of view I don't see England as diverse in the sense of the diversity is found in London as weel as in Birmingham or Manchester (you find there the same "etnies" who live in cities, regions, habitat quite similar. it is much more difficult to notice the regional diversity that we can experience in France or Spain in terms of architectural, grastronomic, languages, climatical, etc. I'd say if you show me pictures of an northern English city, I would not be able to differienciate it from a southern one for exemple.
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But I've always assumed that I wouldn't be seen as 'stereotypically English' in most of the rest of Europe
actually, if basing on your picture, you physically would correspond very well on the common stereotype we have of English people.
I don't know your personality, but the traditional stereotype of the english person would be a red-haired paled-skinned person - with "taches de rousseur", Shy and "well educated", introverted well mannered, bit snobish, and respectful. I tinh this image still be present in a lot of people's head when we think "English" (let's see Laidy Diana, Hug Grants, etc). It is true there is also the image of the "other england", such as hooliganism, alcholism or tabloids. I think both images co-exist in my head. I also have another, which may be the more important: those of a multietnic modern anglo-saxon (in the french meaning) society, based on economical efficiency, buisiness.. the england of traders of all countries, free market, inventive international companies, etc...
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Significant differences can exist within a country as well though. Technically, both I and someone-else from Birmingham but from, say, a very conservative Islamic background are 'British'.
Yes, of course. But you make here the relation with some cultural groups who would define themselves as "minorities", or non-british etnies. It is a hard question, the one of the integration of the descendants of immigrants in the local culture or not. Every European country has the question burning, and hard to make a quick idea and find easy solutions
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
I used to think the same way when I was teenager, but versus United States and England.
I've actually heard a lot of older people here express a similar view. For example, I've often seen programmes on the BBC where the presenter has said things like 'we in Britain are still very much reliant on France for fashion, food and culture' — but presented as a good thing, as though Britain would be a very dull place without French influence. Equally, my mother always complains that she feels very ugly and inferior whenever she goes to France — however, she had a great time in Germany last year, because 'there aren't lots of beautiful attractive people walking around' (in her words).
fab wrote:
That actually not at all the case of Britain, which may be quite péripherical on a geographical point of view - but not the case in term of centrality. It is the second power of the continent after Germany, its language is the dominenet international language, London is seen as the major economic center of Europe and with Paris as one of the two cultural centers of the contient, etc.
I usually feel though that England has not really made much of a contribution to 'high culture'. I was brought up with classical music, and I learnt from an early age that 'composers have funny names' — essentially because they're almost never English. I can't think of many great English painters either.
I'm a clarinetist, and I play lots of music by Mozart, Weber, Rossini Schumann, Brahms, Saint-Saëns, Poulenc, Berstein, Copland etc. However, I almost never play anything by any English composers, with the exception of a few (completely unknown) things by Gerald Finzi and Malcolm Arnold (who aren't very famous anyway), and the English Folk Song Suite by Vaughen-Williams (which again is largely unknown outwith Britain, although I did meet an American musician who knew it).
fab wrote:
Actually that's sound as a common image of England... gentlemen, royal family, nobility, horse competitions, fairplay, oxford and cambrigde, Brigthon victorian aristocratic seafront, victorian architecture, etc.
I had only this image of England before to go there, where I discover a more modern one, more similar to the US. I unfortunally also dicovered bad experiences with the "negative england". it exists in all countries. I think if you travel to Seine-Saint-Denis you might have quite unattractive experiences.
You're right that most countries seem to have 'two images' — a positive one and a negative one. Scotland certainly seems to have two competing images which are completely the opposite of each-other:
The positive image is that Scotland is an outward-looking, progressive and tolerant society which is very accepting of diversity, has beautiful cities, lakes, mountains, glens, forests, islands, heather...
The negative image is that Scotland is an inward-looking, conservative and repressive society which is largely intolerant of diversity, is plagued by religious sectarianism, has the worst poverty in Western Europe, has the lowest life-expectancy in Western Europe, has poor health and a high rate of heart disease, is the most violent country in the 'developed world', has the highest murder rate in Western Europe, has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Western Europe, has enormous problems of drug and alcohol abuse, is in long-term economic and population decline, is full of crumbling grey concrete apartment blocks, has horrendous roads, people have very poor diets (deep-fried Mars bars), people have an inferiority complex which contributes to general malaise, people are pessimistic and have a 'can't do' attitude, people are ungenerous and inhospitable (you'll have had your tea), people will vote for a donkey providing that it's wearing a red Labour Party rosette, are dependent on subsidies from England, always want to do things as cheaply as possible, live on benefits and welfare payments...
I think both images are probably sort of true to varying degrees.
fab wrote:
it is much more difficult to notice the regional diversity that we can experience in France or Spain in terms of architectural, grastronomic, languages, climatical, etc.
Yes — because it's a lot smaller. (It always surprises me that France and Spain are about three or four times the size of England — and even then, most people live in the Southeast or the Midlands/'Southern North' area).
fab wrote:
I'd say if you show me pictures of an northern English city, I would not be able to differienciate it from a southern one for exemple.
I think London is a bit different from the other cities — because it's London. But you're right that Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham, Newcastle-upon-Tyne etc. are all very similar (although I've actually never been to most of those cities).
fab wrote:
actually, if basing on your picture, you physically would correspond very well on the common stereotype we have of English people.
I don't know your personality, but the traditional stereotype of the english person would be a red-haired paled-skinned person
Interesting. I always think that there are two sorts of people in England that it still seems to be socially acceptable to make fun of — Scottish people and people with red hair. I've had abuse because of my hair all my life — just today, some people shouted abuse at me in the street because of it, and this is not an unusual occurrence.
fab wrote:
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Significant differences can exist within a country as well though. Technically, both I and someone-else from Birmingham but from, say, a very conservative Islamic background are 'British'.
Yes, of course. But you make here the relation with some cultural groups who would define themselves as "minorities", or non-british etnies. It is a hard question, the one of the integration of the descendants of immigrants in the local culture or not. Every European country has the question burning, and hard to make a quick idea and find easy solutions
What's interesting is that some of the many 'proudly British' people here are people whose parents/grandparents were immigrants — I know many people like this. But then there's also the other side, whereby some 'ethnic minority' people feel alienated, which has led to things such as 'Islamic extremism' and terrorism.
Uriel
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Essentially, 'foreigner' is not a term I hear very much these days, except from older people — that is why I view it as old-fashioned. I certainly wouldn't describe another person as 'foreign', because I'd be worried that it might offend them or make them feel left out.
Well, I think we've established that that take on the word is pretty much unique to you. My step-siblings are foreigners. Doesn't make me look down on them, and I doubt they would find it offensive.
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I usually feel though that England has not really made much of a contribution to 'high culture'. I was brought up with classical music, and I learnt from an early age that 'composers have funny names' — essentially because they're almost never English. I can't think of many great English painters either.
Ah, you know the English are quite well known for their habit of self-loathing, Fab. It's a strange phenomenon that's never really caught on over here , but I have to say that this may be the worst case of it that I've seen so far -- and I've met lots of Brits online.
Ben, re: great English painters -- Sir Joshua Reynolds,
Thomas Gainsborough,
JMW Turner,
and John Constable.
Also Wiliam Blake, who is better known for his poetry but whose Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed with the Sun got the whole Silence of the Lambs series rolling!
Deborah
England has produced its share of great painters. But where it excels is in literature and poetry.
fab
concerning Turner, I doubt the french impressinists would have had the been the same without.
concerning classical composers, we can say that there are relatively few of them from France too. I'd that classical music is mainly an "alpine" phenomenon, concerning mainly Austria, Northern Italy and southern Germany.
the other western European countries had much less very famous composers: UK, France or Spain... compared to Germany, Italy or Austria.
Uriel
France had Saint-Saens and Debussy -- but those may have been from a a later era than true classical music. (Remembering my parent's record collection -- I loved Afternoon of a Faun.)
As for British artists, their names may not fall so trippingly off the tongue as Leonardo, Michelangelo, or Monet, but you would recognize a lot of their work if you saw it --
the Pre-Raphaelites were all English, and included painters and writers:
English artists have included such seminal illustrators as Arthur Rackham:
Beatrix Potter:
Kate Greenaway:
and the fabulously creepy Aubrey Beardsley:
Benjamin [inactive]
It's certainly true that there were great English painters — but it's also true that, with the possible exception of Turner, non-English painters are far more famous in England than many 'famous' English painters are.
fab wrote:
concerning classical composers, we can say that there are relatively few of them from France too. I'd that classical music is mainly an "alpine" phenomenon, concerning mainly Austria, Northern Italy and southern Germany.
I possibly overestimate France in terms of classical music because I'm such a huge fan of Saint-Saëns. But admittedly, he's not one of the most famous classical composers, and isn't usually seen as one of the 'greats' either.
Equally, I often think of Chopin as being at least partly French. (But by saying that, I should perhaps logically also think of Händel as being partly English).
Uriel wrote:
France had Saint-Saens and Debussy -- but those may have been from a a later era than true classical music. (Remembering my parent's record collection -- I loved Afternoon of a Faun.)
Saint-Saëns is essentially from the mid-late romantic period. He actually had a very long career though — he began composing professionally in the 1850s, when Chopin and Mendelssohn were in their prime, but did not write his clarinet sonata until 1920, which was around the beginning of the jazz. However, he was an extremely conservative composer (even though he led a very 'un-conservative' lifestyle) for most of his career — his compositions from after the First World War could easily have been written in 1870.
Debussy is essentially from the impressionist period.
Loic
Well, I apologise for being absent as of late. I like to think that it is no fault of my own, but some of the blame must at least be attributed to poor time organisation on my part that has robbed me of the means to contribute effectively to discussions in this forum.
What I'd like to say about French people in general and Parisians in particular is that their snobbish reputation certainly does no justice to the warmth and charm that is hidden beneath their otherwise harried exterior. I think it is patent nonsense when people complain of being met with disdain by haughty natives when asked if they speak English. I don't know as I speak in French all the time in public, but when the French demurred when asked if they speak English, it is usually because they are diffident and not indifferent.
At school, I must urge all students in the business field (read: Porthos) to seriously consider a stint in France for it is impossible to be bored. At ESSEC, there are parties twice every week and booze is as good as free once the entrance fee is paid. Getting wasted seemed to be a pretty rigorous discipline that the business students here have all mastered to varying degrees of success. I don't really know what to say; I drank too much sangreal in my first party and managed to drop and break my digital camera in the process.
In the Ile-de-France region at least, I made an interesting observation: jumping through the gates of the metro/RER is a perfectly acceptable thing to do and nobody bats an eyelid. So far, I have diligently paid for all my tickets, but I finally succumbed to the demands of economy today by jumping over a turnstile. Nobody tut-tut or shot me sanctimonious looks; in fact, I was in good company. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been like in say, England where the concept of fair play is deeply rooted and not paying for a train ticket when travelling in the Tube would earn the wretched practitioner unkind words or poisonous looks.
Benjamin [inactive]
Loic wrote:
In the Ile-de-France region at least, I made an interesting observation: jumping through the gates of the metro/RER is a perfectly acceptable thing to do and nobody bats an eyelid. So far, I have diligently paid for all my tickets, but I finally succumbed to the demands of economy today by jumping over a turnstile. Nobody tut-tut or shot me sanctimonious looks; in fact, I was in good company. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been like in say, England where the concept of fair play is deeply rooted and not paying for a train ticket when travelling in the Tube would earn the wretched practitioner unkind words or poisonous looks.
On the London Underground, there are security guards by the barriers who would see you if you did this.
I must say though that I think what you've done is outrageous — I find it equally outrageous that my parents are intending to exploit loopholes in property laws in order to pay less tax on their second home, even though they claim to be left-wing. But then again, I've broken the law many times — usually by buying alcohol in bars for people who are under 18. And admittedly, I did use the buses with a invalid bus-pass for about three months last year...
Uriel
Cheating on your taxes is a time-honored practice everywhere, I think -- and if there's an actual loophole, it's not even cheating!
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It's certainly true that there were great English painters — but it's also true that, with the possible exception of Turner, non-English painters are far more famous in England than many 'famous' English painters are.
So what? I could say the same for American painters. And fame isn't everything -- I think Picasso is crap, and the man was mostly about self-promotion anyway.
And often you don't have to be a household name to have made a lasting impression or to have paved the way forward for more famous painters who came later but took from your ideas -- as fab's comment about Turner and the French Impressionists makes clear.
fab
Salut Loic !
Je vois que tu as commencé ton année universitaire en France ! Depuis combien de temps es-tu arrivé ?
J'ai cru comprendre que tu étais à Cergy, ça se passe bien ?
C'est un peu dommage que ce ne soit pas a Paris même, ça aurrait peu être été plus interessant pour toi. Mais je pense que tu dois souvent venir à la capitale, même si c'est un peu loin ?
Quote:
loopholes
What is that ?
Quote:
In the Ile-de-France region at least, I made an interesting observation: jumping through the gates of the metro/RER is a perfectly acceptable thing to do and nobody bats an eyelid.
Yes, it seems that avoiding the rules is quite a french sport. I think in exess in most of the cases. It is true that in metros and RERs many (most maybe) people (mainly young) have never paid their tickets.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
loopholes
What is that ?
les lacunes
fab wrote:
It is true that in metros and RERs many (most maybe) people (mainly young) have never paid their tickets.
How can the the council afford to keep running the public transport if so many people don't pay for their tickets?
Loic
Salut, Fabien! Je me suis déjà installé dans Cergy depuis 3 semaines et je dois dire que ça me plaît beaucoup. En fait, Paris n’est pas vraiment trop loin de chez moi et j’en ai profité pour aller à Paris tous les week-ends. On dit que Paris est beau et je suis tout à fait d’accord. Toutefois, le coût de vie est cher et je trouve ça ridicule quand j’ai été obligé de payer plus de 4 euros pour une tasse de café dans l’avenue des champs élysée. Comment on se débrouille dans la capitale si on ne gagne pas assez? Même 1000 euros est nettement insuffisant étant donné que presque toutes les choses sont au moins 2 fois plus chères.
Loic
Benjamin:
I regret to say that I committed the same appalling act today once again by non-chalantly leaping over the barricade. The bloke in front of me graciously kept the gantry door open and I am now moved to remark that this is surely the mark of a civilised society - in what other developed country would fellow commuters conspire to help maximise the value we get out from public transport?
Benjamin [inactive]
A valid point does arise from this though: perhaps public transport is too expensive; perhaps taxes should be raised so that it can be paid for entirely by the state.
We end up paying for it one way or another. Of course, in Edinburgh, the people were told that they couldn't have a third tramline at all unless they agreed for a traffic congestion charge to be implemented beforehand — which they didn't, so now only two tramlines are being built.
Deborah
Loic wrote:
The bloke in front of me graciously kept the gantry door open and I am now moved to remark that this is surely the mark of a civilised society - in what other developed country would fellow commuters conspire to help maximise the value we get out from public transport?
It happens in San Francisco all the time. Here, you're supposed to get on only at the front of the bus and either pay there or show your pass or transfer. However, when there are lots of people waiting to get on, this can be a slow process, so people will get on via the middle and back doors. Probably most of them (or us) have passes, but I'm sure there are a few who are getting a free ride. These doors only open when someone gets off the bus (the door is activated by stepping down to the lower step), so if no one's getting off and there are people waiting to get on at the back, often someone (like me) will step down so they can get on.
Benjamin [inactive]
Deborah wrote:
It happens in San Francisco all the time. Here, you're supposed to get on only at the front of the bus and either pay there or show your pass or transfer. However, when there are lots of people waiting to get on, this can be a slow process, so people will get on via the middle and back doors. Probably most of them (or us) have passes, but I'm sure there are a few who are getting a free ride. These doors only open when someone gets off the bus (the door is activated by stepping down to the lower step), so if no one's getting off and there are people waiting to get on at the back, often someone (like me) will step down so they can get on.
That's precisely the reason why the back doors on the busses were removed on the buses in Birmingham about 20 years ago.
Walker
Benjamin wrote:
One day, I hope to see a world where all people will be accepted everywhere, regardless of where they originally came from. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I can still dream.
What kind of society are you hoping for? This makes me think of Starship Troopers where Earth is one big federation.
Benjamin [inactive]
Walker wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
One day, I hope to see a world where all people will be accepted everywhere, regardless of where they originally came from. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I can still dream.
What kind of society are you hoping for?
A world where there is no violence, where there is no unethical exploitation, and where everyone speaks Esperanto (or something similar) as a second language. I've more or less accepted that it's not going to happen, but that would be my ideal world.
(I also accept that people like me are a large part of the reason for why more people don't want to learn Esperanto — the often 'cranky' ideologies of its enthusiasts and all that).
Walker
Benjamin wrote:
Walker wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
One day, I hope to see a world where all people will be accepted everywhere, regardless of where they originally came from. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I can still dream.
What kind of society are you hoping for?
A world where there is no violence, where there is no unethical exploitation, and where everyone speaks Esperanto (or something similar) as a second language. I've more or less accepted that it's not going to happen, but that would be my ideal world.
A world with no violence would have to be some sort of Big Brother society.
Benjamin wrote:
(I also accept that people like me are a large part of the reason for why more people don't want to learn Esperanto — the often 'cranky' ideologies of its enthusiasts and all that).
Another reason could be that they would have no use for it, isn't that so?
fab
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A valid point does arise from this though: perhaps public transport is too expensive; perhaps taxes should be raised so that it can be paid for entirely by the state
Actually, metro tickets are much less expensive in Paris than in London. the french transportation system still much more public than British one.
I was astonished when I was in London how much expensive was the metro ticket (somehow 4 times more than a Parisian ticket !)
But I think it is much more difficult to fraud in London metro than In Paris's.
even Chirac did it...
[/quote]
Benjamin [inactive]
Walker wrote:
A world with no violence would have to be some sort of Big Brother society.
Or a society in which people just don't abuse each-other. All violence must be rejected, in my view. I don't think this should be viewed as fundamentally impossible.
Benjamin wrote:
(I also accept that people like me are a large part of the reason for why more people don't want to learn Esperanto — the often 'cranky' ideologies of its enthusiasts and all that).
Another reason could be that they would have no use for it, isn't that so?[/quote]
That would certainly be the main reason, yes. But I do also think that some people who may have taken an interest in Esperanto may have been put off due to the 'ideology' element.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
A valid point does arise from this though: perhaps public transport is too expensive; perhaps taxes should be raised so that it can be paid for entirely by the state
Actually, metro tickets are much less expensive in Paris than in London.
I know. But I do still wonder why people are trying to avoid paying for their tickets. I'd say that if people don't want to pay for tickets to use public transport, then taxes should be raised so that buying tickets will no-longer be necessary.
Walker
Benjamin wrote:
Walker wrote:
A world with no violence would have to be some sort of Big Brother society.
Or a society in which people just don't abuse each-other. All violence must be rejected, in my view. I don't think this should be viewed as fundamentally impossible.
I don't see it as fundamentally impossible. It's just that you'd have to weed out all dangerous elements i.e. a lot people would have to be incarcerated, executed or deported. But then of course those who'd be left might riot against the authorities and then you'd have... violence.
I'm just messing with you.
Elaine
The MTA train stations around here don't have gates or turnstiles or anything like that. You just buy a ticket, walk onto the platform and hop on the train. Once in awhile an officer from the County Sheriff's Office will board a train and do a random ticket check, but that happens so infrequently. Stupid really b/c MTA's losing millions.
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The MTA has been debating for years whether installing gates at rail terminals would cut fare violators and improve security. Now the board is studying it:
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority will spend $1 million to study whether the agency should install gates at its light-rail and subway stations, the Board of Directors voted today. The Metro Blue, Gold, Green and Red lines currently do not have any barriers in place to ensure passengers have purchased tickets. Instead, sheriff’s deputies and civilian fare inspectors randomly patrol rail cars. Passengers without tickets can be hit with a $250 citation. The rail lines bring in about $35 million a year. MTA officials estimate that 5% of passengers evade the system, costing the agency about $1.75 million. Board member Richard Katz voted against studying the barrier system, arguing it does not make fiscal sense to spend millions of dollars on a problem that costs the agency less than $2 million a year. (CNS)
Dumb. Why spend $1 million on a stupid study?? You know people aren't buying tickets so put the damn gates in already!
The gateless Wilshire-Normandie Red Line station.
The gateless Heritage Square Blue Line station.
Benjamin [inactive]
Elaine wrote:
The MTA train stations around here don't have gates or turnstiles or anything like that.
If I remember correctly, the metro in Brussels doesn't have them either.
Elaine
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If I remember correctly, the metro in Brussels doesn't have them either.
Odd. It would be nice if you could trust people to do the right thing, but we all know that's not always the case.
My big beef with the MTA trains is that there are always homeless people sleeping in them and no security personnel bothering to kick them off. I mean I sympathize with their plight, but try hopping onto a packed train with a whole section full of foul-smelling homeless people sleeping there with their bare feet up on the seats. Not pretty.
Elaine
Does the 35-hour work week apply to every sector of industry in France or just those that are unionized? How the heck do you Frenchies get any work done??
Also, does everybody take time off for Easter, Ascension Day, Pentecost, Assumption, and All Saints' Day? I'm very envious that you get so many holidays, but don't these ones in particular go against the concept of laïcité? Am I misunderstanding something? Of course, I would have a cow (and quite a few kittens) if my company tried to take away my Christmas holiday!
fab
Elaine,
the official working-time for employees is supposed to be 35hours a week in all sectors. this extreme rigidity is now more or less criticized by many political parties, but also in the Socialist one which was responsible for the 35 hours law. but basically this law is not supposed to be cancelled, even by the most economical liberlists - because I think this is quite popular for most people independantly of their political orientation.
concerning the catholic holidays, all people have them, independently of the field or religious orientation.
most people are anot practicing religion, so are not really aware that of their religious origins - to most people toussaint, pentecote, ascension, assomption, easter, etc. are just rest days... to which it should be added the commemorations such as war endings, fête du travail and national day.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Elaine wrote:
Does the 35-hour work week apply to every sector of industry in France or just those that are unionized? How the heck do you Frenchies get any work done??
Because we work fast and well, don't we ?! Which must be close to (economic) truth judging by productivity levels...
Benjamin [inactive]
Does the 35 hour week apply only to employees then? Presumably, for example, the owner of a small restaurant would be allowed/expected to work more than 35 hours a week, since with their job they'd probably be 'working' (in one way or another) most of the time.
Loic
Well, I just want to make a general observation that this axiom of life is true everywhere: girls from business schools are definitely aesthetically more pleasing than engineering girls.
Being the perceptive observer that I am, I was at the canteen just yesterday and simply sat back to take in my surroundings. The canteen in question also serves a neighbouring engineering school; I am currently at a business one. In comes the engineering guys and girls, all dressed in a rather nondescript fashion. After awhile, the business girls streamed in, stockinged legs and heels.
Makes me glad I am not an engineer.
Liz
Loic wrote:
Well, I just want to make a general observation that this axiom of life is true everywhere: girls from business schools are definitely aesthetically more pleasing than engineering girls.
What exactly do you base your supposition on?
Loic wrote:
Being the perceptive observer that I am, I was at the canteen just yesterday and simply sat back to take in my surroundings. The canteen in question also serves a neighbouring engineering school; I am currently at a business one. In comes the engineering guys and girls, all dressed in a rather nondescript fashion. After awhile, the business girls streamed in, stockinged legs and heels.
Is it so clear-cut?
I'm asking because I've never thought that there was such a significant difference between the fashion style of engineers and business students (girls, boys, whatever).
Loic
Liz:
It's been such a long time since I saw you! Ok, it's not clear-cut. It all boils down to gut feeling. Is it the same in Hungary?
PS: Speaking of Hungary, do you know IBS Budapest? I hang out a lot with a bloke from that school and according to him, the medium of instruction in his school is English.
Liz
Loic wrote:
Liz:
It's been such a long time since I saw you!
Happy to be here again. What are you doing in France?
Loic wrote:
Ok, it's not clear-cut. It all boils down to gut feeling. Is it the same in Hungary?
I'm not aware of the diference between engineering and business students. However, business girls are usually more "attractive" in a way than most of us, art students. They are proper "dolly birds", whereas we tend to dress up like hippies.
Loic wrote:
PS: Speaking of Hungary, do you know IBS Budapest? I hang out a lot with a bloke from that school and according to him, the medium of instruction in his school is English.
LOL! It looks as if you didn't believe him.
Of course, I know IBS...from the remotest distance. It's a university for the rich and the famous, really. It has connections with the University of Oxford - allegedly who has completed his degree gets an Oxford degree, too. Yes, it's an English-medium educational institution. To be more precise, you can choose to study in English, but you do not neccessarily do so.
Uriel
My mother was a biology grad student at Cornell, and used to be very much a fashion plate. Most grad students in the sciences there tended to look like they'd recently moved out from under a bridge. So when they got a load of her they often mistook her for the secretary and handed her stuff to type .... so be careful who you stereotype!
Loic
Liz:
I see. So IBS Budapest is a finishing school for prats then! Well, my friend did insinuated about the reputation of the school, but he declined to go into details in order to avoid sounding like a prat, probably.
I am actually doing a mini gap year, so called. It is supposed to be an academic exchange, but I have not been doing much work, to the distress of my mother if she does get wind of it.
Uriel:
I wouldn't say that science students are sartorially challenged. I'd say that the engineering students are often the worst: some of them have not even worn a tie in their life.
Uriel
A tie? I don't think these guys were wearing underwear.....
Elaine
The French Republican Calendar...
Did other European countries adopt it, or just France?
I had a good laugh when I read England's tongue-in-cheek nicknames for the months:
Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage"): Wheezy
Brumaire (from French brume, "mist"): Sneezy
Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost"): Freezy
Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy"): Slippy
Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy"): Drippy
Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy"): Nippy
Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed"): Showery
Floréal (from Latin flos, "flower"): Flowery
Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow"): Bowery
Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest"): Wheaty
Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot"): Heaty
Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits"): Sweety
Uriel
Where do you come up with all these goodies, Elaine?
Elaine
How are our Parisian friends doing on this 3rd (?) night of rioting? Hope you're all far from harm's way.
Loic
Just a belated reply to Elaine's post, but I thought of actually taking the RER to Villiers-le-Bel until I realised that the commune wasn't actually served by a train station.
Some of the riots actually spilled over into Cergy where I am living. Oh well, just send in the army tanks, I say. Just today, a parcel bomb exploded in a building right in downtown Paris just near Parc Monceau, the very place where I was mugged in my first weekend here.
I wonder what'd happen next, really.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Elaine wrote:
How are our Parisian friends doing on this 3rd (?) night of rioting? Hope you're all far from harm's way.
Sorry to anwser so late. Eveything's fine. Riots were localised this time (Villiers-le-Bel, a suburb in Val-d'Oise = 95).
Elaine
Good to hear you're all doing well.
BTW, what is the French word for thugocracy?
greg in noord-frankrijk
Voyoucratie /vwajukRasi/.
Elaine
greg in noord-frankrijk wrote:
Voyoucratie /vwajukRasi/.
Merci.
greg in noord-frankrijk
! De nada carina !
Elaine
Who were the Cagots and why were they treated as outcasts? What has become of them?
I stayed on the top floor. If you look on the right hand side of the pic, you'll see a blue door. That was the door to my suite, and everthing to the left of it was my suite! Luckily the company paid!
[/quote]
I'm just messing with you.
