| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Porthos |
Am I strange for liking Dutch?Most people tell me I am. "Do I find it to be a pretty language?", they ask. "No", I respond, "I even think it's a harsh language"."Then why on earth do you like Dutch?" "To be honest, I don't really know." And I'm still trying to figure out why. I think it boils down to a few reasons, including the following: - It sounds 'cool', but not pleasant, if that makes any sense -I like the whacky orthography, with all the double vowels and such - I like that its basic vocabulary is so similar to English - I like it because it's so easy to learn - It's the descendant language of the mighty Franks - I associate it with the Netherlands, which as a youth, brings to mind a positive image That's basically why I'm attracted to it in a nutshell. But, these aren't the usual reasons for learning a language. Usually, you learn a language that sounds beautiful, or one that you need for practical purposes because of the area. Deze video is niet langer This video is no longer My favorite color is orange, but I love using all colors in my work. Mijn favoriete kleur is oranje, maar ik houd van gebruikend alle kleuren in mijn werk. The similarities abound in basic vocabulary, while advanced vocabulary becomes more difficult than Romance languages. The reason for my personal preference for Dutch over German rests only on the fact that Dutch did not take part in the HGCS. Again today I argued with an older gentleman who insisted that English descended from Latin, and I tried explaining to him that most of our everyday-vocabulary is of Germanic origin similar to Dutch and German. My explanations probably gave him a headache. But I've never studied Dutch formally. Yet, within one day, I was able to memorize all the numbers, colors, and pronouns, which are often the first things people learn when introduced to a foreign language. Then I taught myself the most common verbs and some of their conjugations, and I learned the spelling system, and listend to some audio to familiarize myself with the spoken word. So that with very little study, I'm able to understand children's stories in Dutch. I think it's safe to say that I speak or at least understand Dutch on a basic conversational level. I speak enough to get around and survive in a Dutch speaking environment, and express basic thoughts. This is my reason for wanting to study in the Netherlands, as opposed to other European countries besides Spain. I want to go to a country where I can best communicate with people in their native language. That's why I plan on studying abroad in Spain and the Netherlands. |
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| Uriel |
No, you're just strange.  (Who the hell has orange as their favorite color?!)
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| Porthos |
No, orange isn't my favorite color. I just used it as an example. |
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| Yelina |
Few years back, orange was one of my favorite colors. I don't see why I'd be considered as "strange" just for liking it. Is it bad to like this color in the States? |
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| Loic |
Well Porthos, dating girls in the Netherlands would also be rather cheap - I imagine they all go Dutch over there. You just have to pay for your share.
Of course, you are probably studying Dutch for far nobler and honourable reasons than something as base and sordid as fraternisation with the local girls. |
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| KSa |
Porthos:
I don't want to discourage you but I think there is a lot of work ahead if you really want to feel (even relatively) safe in Dutch-speaking environment. Maybe I'm mistaken because I don't really know your foreign language skills. Anyway, the problem with native speakers is that they tend to use their normal way of speaking and there are few who try to simplify their language so that it is understandable for those who can only name colours, who know numbers and just a few basic expressions. Even with my English I don't always feel safe in the UK & US, especially when speaking to the people whose English is far from the English I learnt at school(s). But still it is amazing that you have started this difficult task (Dutch is a vary difficult language in my opinion) and I wish you good luck! |
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| Porthos |
Well, two things. For one, I know a lot more than numbers, colors, and a few basic expressions. And two, as an English speaker, Dutch is not very difficult. You're Polish, so I can imagine it would be difficult for you, but I'm a native Germanic speaker. But you are right about one thing. There would be a lot of work involved, as very few universities in the U.S. offer Dutch as a foreign language. The only Germanic language they usually offer is German.
Of course not. Although I must admit that a certain Dutch tourist girl got me started on the road to liking Dutch in the first place. 
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| KSa |
Porthos:
I don't doubt that it's generally easier for you to learn Dutch in comparison to Slavic people. But it is not always the case. For me it was much easier and faster to learn English than Russian. I can express myself quite easily in English, which is impossible in case of my Russian. I learnt Russian for 4 years and know but simple basic expressions. I would know them without even lerning Russian anyway because Russian & Polish basic expressions are often very similar. 
Still I think that it's mainly a question of proper motivation. The strongest motivation is when you learn a language because you like it and not because you have to learn it. This seems to be your case since the decision to start learning Dutch was not caused by your employer's requirements or something like this. Thus I won't be surprised if you make a quick progress in a relatively short period of time (months). Answering you first question - no, you are not strange for liking Dutch. I always appreciate people who learn a language for the sake of learning even if it doesn't bring them any profits. |
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| Uriel |
 Only in MY opinion, it seems! My favorite color has always been green.
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| Porthos |
How so? Dutch is far more similar to English than it is to Slavic languages.  Of course Dutch is easier for a fellow West Germanic speaker than a Slavic person.
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| Uriel |
Doesn't always matter how closely a language is related to your own, is what he's saying, Porthos. I find Spanish comparatively easier than German, even though on the language tree, English and German are more closely related. | ||||||||
| Loic |
And anyway, Ksa possesses a very competent facility in the English language. Surely that would be very handy if he does ever attempt to learn Dutch.
It is not as if he doesn't know a single word of a Germanic language to help ease his transition into Dutch. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Re: Am I strange for liking Dutch?
No stranger than Dutch people for using & liking Dutch. Why so doing could be odd at all ? I believe Dutch to be as alluring a language as may often be all sorts of things perceived to be somewhere or something "in-between". Not that it would be the only, nor major, temptation exerted by Dutch (think about sound & spelling), but it's not impossible that the relatively limited spread of Dutch as a foreign language combined with its unique features make it appear as something entre chien et loup, which it is not. Had things been slightly different, the West today might have been speaking Dutch. The question whether liking Dutch shouldn't be viewed as an outlandish penchant might then seem eerie.
True. Occitan is infinitely closer to French than German will ever be. However, I'd get by in a German-speaking environment more comfortably than within a circle of Occitanophones. Individual exposure is probably a good explanation. Even most similar traits can be deceiving. For instance I'm so accustomed to *believe* that French is the "only" language where final <r> may be unpronounced (infinitives like <danser>, <parler> & <manger> for instance) that when the same feature does occur in Occitan I could be acting disconcertedly : I'd be thinking about <dança> (he's dancing), <parla> (he's talking) & <manja> (he's eating), which are homophonous with <dançar>, <parlar> & <manjar> respectively. |
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| Uriel |
Hey, English people leave those final R's unpronounced all the time! 
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
True, very true !... But they don't in Northern America, do they ? Anyway, I think Germans, too, omit the final <r> in words like <Tochter> or <Singer>. | ||||||||
| Llatai |
Re: Am I strange for liking Dutch?[quote="Porthos"]Most people tell me I am. "Do I find it to be a pretty language?", they ask. "No", I respond, "I even think it's a harsh language"."Then why on earth do you like Dutch?"[quote] I know how you feel Porthos, I'm studying Welsh. Like you, most of the responses I get begin with "why on earth....". If I respond that I just like it, then I usually get stared at, probably while my level of geekhood is being evaluated. But I'm of Welsh descent, so I usually throw that in. People tend to question my sanity less if I can add a justification for my actions that they determine to be reasonable or at least understandable. For some reason, going to all the trouble of learning a language simply because you like it is too perplexing to people, particularly Americans, who seem to be generally perplexed by anyone who would learn another language at all unless they had to. Since Welsh speakers are hardly prevelent here, the internet has been my salvation in terms of communicating with others. I'm sure you have even more opportunities in that arena with Dutch. Good luck to you! |
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| Porthos |
Sure they do. It's quite prevalent in the tidewater regions of the South such as Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, the Carolinas, etc., as well as the northeast, in places like New York and about half of New England, particularly in Boston. Of course, it just occured to me that non-rhotic pronunciation might not be what you're referring to when you speak of omitting the final 'r'.
That's only because you speak German. If you knew equally little of German and Occitan, Occitan would surely be easier for you.
Yes, very true of most Americans, unfortunately.
My father's family, like most people from the non-tidewater south are also mainly of Welsh and Scots-Irish extraction, which is why I've always been interested in Wales and the Welsh. I often wonder why Scots and/or Welsh didn't take on a stronger hold in America, especially in places where Scots or Welshmen were majorities. I always thought that most people from northern Ireland and Scotland still spoke various forms of Scots during the first half of the 1700s. So why wouldn't Scots have survived on America in places where they were the clear majority, and where very few English settled? |
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| fab |
I don't see whwt is strange in liking Dutch. It seems "harsh" but the sounds is not the only reason why we should like languages.
I found Spanish much more harsh than Italian, but I still preffer Spanish language. |
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| Porthos |
Only the variety from Spain is harsher than Italian. Latin American Spanish does not have the harsh 'g' sound, or the lisp or anything like that. |
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| Walker |
It does. I used to work with a couple of Kurdish people and their language didn't sound very pleasant, but it sounded pretty cool. Dutch on the other hand sound a bit...  
Just kidding. But it sounds weird, like it's not a real language but something made up from a bunch of other languages. But credit should be given to you for learning a new language! You know, I'm not used to hearing Dutch, but if I were, I would probably have different perception of it. |
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| Irrintzi |
Dutch, opportunity to hear this language during summer with Dutch tourists, nothing special, it isn't really harsh... My personnal opinion about Spanish: Spanish is a good rythmic language for dancing, musics and fiestas. Good phonology, "la jota" can be harsh, but I love this particularity wich came from Arabic language. Italian sounds very good to me, there are little of famous (since the 30 last years) Italian musics, it's a pity. I love especially Polyphonies in Italian or other close languages which are very stirring. A polyphonia in Corsican (Italic family) |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
En fait la jota — soit /x/ = <j> — est un phénomène relativement récent puisque son "apparition" est datée du milieu du XVIe siècle. La fusion de /S/ = /ʃ/ avec /Z/ = /ʒ/ est achevée au XVIe : c'est le premier phonème qui subsiste. Lequel s'altère en /x/ un peu plus tard, c'est-à-dire environ 150 ans après que les Musulmans eurent quitté Grenade. |
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| Llatai |
There was an interesting article I read on the BBC website which said that about 50,000 pamphlets were printed in Welsh for Abraham Lincoln's presidential campaign. A considerable number. There were a number of Welsh speaking soldiers in the Union army during the Civil War as well. Here's a link you might like, though you probably know alot of the information already. It claims Gaelic was spoken in eastern North Carolina up to the late 1770s. http://www.dalhousielodge.org/Thesis/scotstonc.htm |
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| Didier69 |
Dat is zo jammer dat zo veel mensen denken dat Nederlands een moeilijke taal is. Deze taal heeft toch een makkelijkere grammatica dan Duits. Mijns inziens zijn er maar een klank die op het begin moeilijk te uitspreken worden kunt. Het is "G". Andere klanken van de taal bestaan ook in andere talen.
It's a pity that so many people think Dutch would be a difficult language. This language has however an easier grammar than German. In my opinion there is only one sound which can be difficult to pronounce at the beginning. It's "G". Other sounds of the language exist also in other European languages. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
What language do you *not* speak ?! André will be happy : he speaks Afrikaans natively.
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| Didier69 |
I like very much Germanic languages and Provençal. I think there are so many connexions between Dutch, Swedish, English and German. It makes less difficult to learn the other languages of this family when you can one of them. It's always the same situation with all families of languages. | ||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
True. It's also exciting to cross-study older variants of modern languages belonging to a same linguistic group. | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
As Nederlands vir jou maklik is, sal Afrikaans vir jou verspot maklik wees. If Dutch is easy for you, Afrikaans will be a piece of cake for you. |
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| Didier69 |
Hoi André,
Ja, ik heb gemerkt dat ik veel woorden in Afrikaans kan verstaan. Ik bedoel de geschrevene taal. Als ik probeer naar radio Pretoria te luisteren, is het toch een beetje moeilijker voor mij te verstaan. Vriendelijke groetjes, Didier |
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| Didier69 |
Sorry ik heb vergeten iets te vragen. In welke stad woon jij in Zuid-Afrika ? | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Hi Didier! Yep, the vocabulary is very similar, although the spelling differs. One also has to be careful, since there are some words which look the same, but mean completely different things! And some words totally acceptable in Afrikaans, are considered rude in Dutch, and vice versa.
You listen to Radio Pretoria? Rather try www.rsg.co.za which is the largest Afrikaans radio station. Radio Pretoria is politically rather controversial...
Groetnis Andre |
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| Didier69 |
Thank you very much for the information. | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Ek het voorheen in Bloemfontein gewoon, maar woon nou in Kuruman, 'n dorp in die Noord-Kaap/. |
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| Didier69 |
In welk deel van Zuid-Afrika wordt Afrikaans het meest gesproken ? Ik heb gehoord dat er verscheidene dialecten bestaan. Zijn er veel verschillende dialecten van Afrikaans ? | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Die meeste Afrikaanssprekendes woon in die noordelike provinsies, maar Afrikaans is meer oorheersend in provinsies soos die Vrystaat, Noord-Kaap en Wes-Kaap. Die taalkwessie in Suid-Afrika is ingewikkeld, omdat ons 11 amptelike tale het. Net Afrikaans en Engels word egter landwyd gepraat, die ander tale is streekgebonde. Daar is verskeie dialekte van Afrikaans, maar verskil eintlik maar min van standaard-Afrikaans. Die verskille gaan maar meer oor aksent, uitspraak en hier en daar 'n woord. If you don't understand any part of this, I'll be happy to translate.
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| Didier69 |
Dank je wel voor jouw antwoord, André. Ik vind het zo leuk, ik kan alles verstaan wat je geschreven hebt. Het schijnt me dat Afrikaans dichtbij Nederlands is zoals Zweeds met Noors. Kijk je soms naar BVN tv ? Dat is Nederlandstalige tv naar het buitenland. Ik kijk bijna elke dag naar deze tv-zender. Ik kijk naar nieuws, documentaire films en tv-seriën. Ik krijg het via satellietantenn. | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Ja, die ooreenkoms tussen Afrikaans en Nederlands word dikwels vergelyk met die ooreenkoms tussen Sweeds en Noors. Ek kyk gereeld na BVN, hier ook op satelliet. Ek verstaan Nederlands maklik as dit geskryf is, maar dis moeiliker as dit gepraat word. Die Nederlanders spot Afrikaans is 'n babataal, ons spot Nederlands is 'n outydse vorm van Afrikaans! 
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| Didier69 |
Ik versta dat de beide talen zich verschillend hebben ontwikkeld | ||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Ja, Afrikaans het uit Middel-Nederlands ontwikkel, en ook invloede van Frans, Duits, verskeie ander Europese tale, en ook 'n bietjie van Afrika-tale gehad. |
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