BELGIUM

fab · BELGIUM

since a few months the subject is coming stronger and stronger. Will belgium split in two linguistical/cultural (and economical) countries ?

for those who understand french :
http://www.france5.fr/cdanslair/index.cfm

"ça frite chez les Belges" video

Benjamin [inactive]

Belgium... possibly my favourite country out of those which I've visited.

I'm generally sympathetic towards successionist movements, due to a belief that it's best for decisions to be made as locally as possible (though recognising that some issues such as human rights and the environment are best dealt with on a global level). After all, my attitude towards Scottish independence is no secret on this forum — once I've moved to Scotland on Saturday, one of the first things I will do is join the Scottish Green Party, who are pro-independence.

However, I'll admit that I'm slightly wary of this issue vis-à-vis Belgium, because the desire for the break-up of Belgium is more of a Flemish thing than a Walloon thing. I think it's especially important not to try to draw too many analogies between Flanders and Scotland, as I know some Scottish people have done recently. In the case of Flanders, it's essentially the case of some of the richer majority wanting to get rid of the poorer minority — whereas this is absolutely not the case in Scotland.

Another reason for why I'm wary of it is because of the fact that the main political party which supports the break-up of Belgium (or more accurately Flemish independence), Vlaams Belang, is essentially a far-right party. They are absolutely not like the European Free Alliance — a group which is allied with the Greens and consists mainly of centre-left parties such as the Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru, the Democratic Breton Union, Republican Left of Catalonia and suchlike. It is most unfortunate that I've seen some Scottish people compare the SNP to Vlaams Belang recently, because they don't really have anything in common.

And then there's the issue about who gets Brussels — which would have obvious impacts on Europe as a whole. I certainly wouldn't like to see another Northern Ireland, or another Berlin before the German reunification.

But despite these concerns, I have no fundamental opposition to the break-up of Belgium if that's what they want to do — after all, if they manage to do it successfully, with all parts remaining in the EU after separation, then that will send a very clear message that Scotland would remain in the EU if it became independent. However, I do think that the only right way to reach a conclusion on the Belgian issue is for majorities in Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels to agree to a settlement by referenda.

Josh Lalonde

I've been watching this whole thing on and off on RTB news, and really, I don't see any reason for them to stay together. The point of a country is that there's supposed to be a feeling of unity that gets everyone to live under the same laws, etc.; if the country doesn't inspire that feeling of unity, then it's not really a country. I think the parallels here are more important for Canada than for the UK, though; if Flanders separates, that will certainly provide an example for Quebec. I think it's sad when a country dies, but there's no sense keeping it on life-support forever.

Benjamin [inactive]

Josh Lalonde

I think the situation in Flanders is more like that in Quebec than in Scotland for a few reasons. 1) Language difference is the main marker of identity in both Flanders and Quebec. In Scotland, the vast majority speak English (though many speak Scots, arguably a separate language, most see it as a variety of English) 2) In Quebec and Flanders, political and economic power has traditionally been held by an outside group: Anglophones in Quebec and Walloons in Flanders; in both cases the underclass was able to reassert themselves starting in the 70s or so. While England has clearly dominated the UK from the start, Scots were not suppressed in the same way Quebeckers and Flemings were, and were clearly superior in social status to the Irish and the Welsh. 3) Flanders and Quebec both form a significant portion of their countries' population: Wikipedia gives 58% for the former, 24% for the latter, but only 8.7% for Scotland. Flanders' secession would clearly destroy Belgium; Quebec's might do the same to Canada, but it would at least drastically change its character; the UK would likely go on much as it was before.
I support the rights of all these nations to their own states, but I'm not convinced that independence is what's best for them. Quebec receives funding from the Canadian government and has substantial control over its own affairs, so they seem to have the best of both worlds. I don't know as much about UK politics, but it seems like Scotland gets a pretty good deal too, with free university, their own Parliament, etc. Flanders has the strongest case for independence of the three IMO.

Benjamin [inactive]

Yes, I see what you mean. I wasn't particularly opposing what you were saying — as I said, I don't think it's appropriate to draw too many analogies between Flanders and Scotland.

You're also right that Scotland is very much peripheral to the UK as a whole — as you said, it has only 8.7% of the UK's population, and an even lower percentage of its GDP because it's poorer than the UK average.

As for whether the UK would go on much as it was before after Scottish independence... I'm not so sure. Wales might be a few years behind Scotland as far as all this is concerned, but they're catching up — if Scottish independence is a success, then Welsh independence would likely follow shortly after, in my view. Then there's also the issue as to what would happen to Northern Ireland — because arguably, the link which most Northern Irish Unionists feel to the mainland UK is actually more to Scotland than to England.

There are a variety of reasons for separatism, of which the main are probably (in no particular order):

1 — history of independence
2 — different religion
3 — different language
4 — perception of distinct culture or nation
5 — perception of economic (dis)advantage
6 — perception of lack of political representation or influence
7 — perception of having been abused/neglected by the rest of the country
8 — disillusionment with the present national government

Flanders certainly has 3, 4, 5 today, and had 6 and 7 in the past. I'd suspect that it probably has 8 as well.

For Scotland, I'd say that 1, 4, 5, 8 and controversially 7 are the main reasons for the existence of the independence movement. Scotland also sort of has 2 and to an extent even 3, although these are not usually motivations for independence in this case. 6 is very controversial as far as Scotland is concerned.

Josh Lalonde

I'd say that Quebec has 3 through 8; 2 historically, though Quebec is now the least religious province. Some Quebeckers would probably argue for 1 as well, but it's been almost 250 years since Quebec was separate from Ontario, and before that it was a colony of France, so it's never been actually independent. On second thought, your probably right about a post-Scotland UK. I'm not sure about Northern Ireland though; do you think they would become an independent country? I can't see them joining either Scotland or Ireland without one side being very disappointed. I think the European Union may encourage separatist groups in Europe though. One of the primary objections to independence is that the resulting countries would be too small and would be overwhelmed by their larger neighbours, but the EU offers some protection for them and could make them more viable.

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

La sécession de la Flandre néerlandophone est plus que probable. Reste à trouver une solution pour la Wallonie francophone (rattachement à la France ?), pour la Wallonie germanophone (détachement de la Wallonie francophone ?), pour Bruxelles et bien sûr pour la Flandre francophone dont les droits élémentaires ne sont pas respectés par la Flandre.

KSa

I think that Belgium can serve as an example of how the idea of entirely united (federal) Europe is nothing more than mere illusion. I have always been surprised that such a union like Belgium has been existing for so many years. Now try to imagine the French, German or English co-existing within one federal Europe.

Josh Lalonde

KSa

greg in noord-frankrijk

Elaine

Poor Miss Belgium...

Uriel

And yet life seems to proceed apace there without one! Perhaps they are like the rest of us, where ordinary people don't pay much attention to the government anyway, and barely notice it until tax season.....

André in Zuid-Afrika

Mathijs

The sad part is, us Flemish blame the Francophones and vice versa.
It should stop, because in the end we're both to blame! And what's all this talk
about Vlaams Belang ? They don't RULE the country you know, I mean every country has extreme right parties ( did I say it right

). Most Flemish disapprove the party, I assure you. Their way of thinking is just plain wrong.
And some small things really piss me off. I'm proud to be Flemish, so I'm very fond of our symbol, the lion. The party uses this symbol for their propaganda. Result: it is wrong to use the symbol, it is wrong to hang out the flag. Very sad, really ...

Anyway, events that have happened recently, angered both Flemish and Walloons. Remember the phoney newsreport ? Both Flemish and Walloons didn't take it too well. And how about Leterme singing the french anthem when he was asked to sing the french version of the belgian one. I mean ,COME ON, what's happening to this country ?

Benjamin [inactive]

Mathijs

Benjamin [inactive]

Loic

I do not see what is wrong in having pride in an identity. By being proud to be Flemish, Matthijs is proud to belong to his own community. That is a very reasonable thing to do.

I visited Brussels on Christmas Eve and while I perfectly understand that Brussels does not in anyway encapsulate the character and spirit of the country, I dare say that I have realised the fuss which languages cause in Belgium. Very often, Brussels strikes me as a Tower of Babel-like world of North African/Turkish youths, Dutch-speaking businessmen alongside their francophone counterparts, bilingual street signs in which the Dutch translation appears (at least to me) to do little justice to the French meaning (e.g. "Grote Markt" for "Grand'Place").

KSa

André in Zuid-Afrika

I understand what Ben says about bad things happening in the past. But I'm proudly Afrikaans and proudly South African, despite things that happened here. After all, one loves one's family despite bad things they might have done. I can find a lot in the Afrikaans culture to be proud of, despite the fact that we have the albatross of apartheid. In fact, the very fact that we were able to recognise it for the evil system it was and reject it, makes me proud. In the same way, bad things happening in the past of other nations, are offset by the fact that those nations left it behing. England, for example, is no longer a nation of colonisers. In theory, I should hate the English for what they did to the Afrikaners during the Anglo Boer War. But that would be senseless, since the actual people who did it are no longer around.... And no currently living Englishman has done me any harm...

History is only a part of your heritage, and it's how you deal with history today that's important.

Deborah

Once again, I understand and agree with Benjamin on this issue.

I do love San Francisco, both for its beauty and for the SF Bay Area being arguably the most progressive urban area in the US. But that only makes me glad that I live here. If SF were to become extremely conservative, my attitude toward my city would change radically.

Benjamin [inactive]

Uriel

People tend to be "proud" of the things that they have associated in their own minds with some aspect of their own personal identity. It can really be anything that has some personal symbolism for that individual. And it's a real emotional attachment -- you feel it in your gut. (Hence the phrase, "swelling with pride".) But it's not the same sort of "pride" that one has in say, some personal accomplishment.

It IS interesting that various different groups seem to have their own clusters of attributes that it is common for them to feel pride in -- or even expected for them to feel pride in -- and that often these attributes may be ones that another group is indifferent to or even find offensive. I suppose that's culture talking! And of course, individuals vary even within a group.

David

I support a partition of Belgium. They obviously can't get along , The only thing that would be disheartening to both sides would be the loss of Brussels to probably the Walloons. It's such a powerful, cultural city for both cultures, that it would undoubtedly be a major economic and political blow for Flanders. But the loss of it would be better than it becoming the next Berlin...

Benjamin [inactive]