I was in a coffee shop this afternoon, and served by a waiter who spoke Afrikaans. Nothing strange about that, except that his Afrikaans was so perfect that I started to suspect that he's not Afrikaans. Listening to him a bit more, confirmed this when I picked up a slight English accent. I asked him, and he confirmed that Afrikaans was his second language. When I complimented him on his Afrikaans, he said: "Well, I try." Indeed yes, harder than most Afrikaans speakers, who assume (as native speakers tend to do) that they speak their own language well enough not having to try to speak it well.
Elaine
I don't know if they speak better, but they do tend to speak more formally, at least, from my experience.
We have a lot of Filipinos in my company (and that's another thing... why are there so many Filipinos in Acctg & Finance?), and even though they speak with moderate to strong accents, they are usually well-spoken and speak very formal, by-the-book English.
Deborah
Oui, je parle le francaise beaucoup meilleur que greg. Y hablar espanol mayor que patriccke. :wink:
greg in noord-frankrijk
Elaine wrote:
I don't know if they speak better, but they do tend to speak more formally, at least, from my experience.
Oui, je parle le francaise beaucoup meilleur que greg. Y hablar espanol mayor que patriccke. :wink:
:D It is be true for the Spanish (each time I am try speak it, words are come in Italish). But I catchup with mine perfect English!!!
KSa
Do you often meet people speaking your language in a way that you don't recognize them as non-native speaker? I think it happens very rarely in case of Polish. Non-natives usually speak it with a noticeable accent or make grammar/spelling mistakes. I don't count language geniuses.
KSa
To non-native English speakers:
My experience doesn’t always let me judge correctly, but if I didn’t know you and according to your written English had to guess if you’re natives or not I’d place André, Greg and Walker in the native English speaker group. Sometimes in Walker’s messages I find something which would make me suspicious but very rarely. On the other hand, it’d be quite easy for me to guess that Sander is not an English speaker (that I understand him best is a different thing :) ).
It’s only my subjective point of view and maybe the natives here will say something quite different.
Walker
KSa wrote:
To non-native English speakers:
My experience doesn’t always let me judge correctly, but if I didn’t know you and according to your written English had to guess if you’re natives or not I’d place André, Greg and Walker in the native English speaker group. Sometimes in Walker’s messages I find something which would make me suspicious but very rarely. On the other hand, it’d be quite easy for me to guess that Sander is not an English speaker (that I understand him best is a different thing :) ).
It’s only my subjective point of view and maybe the natives here will say something quite different.
Now you made me curious! Firstly, I think it's fun that you'd put me in the native English speaker group. But what is it about my writing that makes you suspicious? Not that I find it strange at all, I'm just curious to know. But I guess it might be hard to give examples from what I've written.
Speaking of vocabulary I have heard non-native speakers speak better Swedish than native speakers of Swedish. I've met one person whom I first thought was Swedish, but I soon suspected that she wasn't. It was her intonation that gave her away and it turned out she was German. I'm not sure if I ever would've suspected that she was German if she hadn't told me; I just knew she wasn't Swedish. Right, there's also a Turkish girl/woman at work who doesn't have any accent whatsoever, besides her Stockholm accent. Yet her native language isn't Swedish but Turkish. When I found this out I was really surprised. The only thing that gives her away is that sometimes (rarely) she says en instead of ett or the opposite e.g. "an table" or "a apple".
KSa
Walker wrote:
KSa wrote:
To non-native English speakers:
My experience doesn’t always let me judge correctly, but if I didn’t know you and according to your written English had to guess if you’re natives or not I’d place André, Greg and Walker in the native English speaker group. Sometimes in Walker’s messages I find something which would make me suspicious but very rarely. On the other hand, it’d be quite easy for me to guess that Sander is not an English speaker (that I understand him best is a different thing :) ).
It’s only my subjective point of view and maybe the natives here will say something quite different.
Now you made me curious! Firstly, I think it's fun that you'd put me in the native English speaker group. But what is it about my writing that makes you suspicious? Not that I find it strange at all, I'm just curious to know. But I guess it might be hard to give examples from what I've written.
Speaking of vocabulary I have heard non-native speakers speak better Swedish than native speakers of Swedish. I've met one person whom I first thought was Swedish, but I soon suspected that she wasn't. It was her intonation that gave her away and it turned out she was German. I'm not sure if I ever would've suspected that she was German if she hadn't told me; I just knew she wasn't Swedish. Right, there's also a Turkish girl/woman at work who doesn't have any accent whatsoever, besides her Stockholm accent. Yet her native language isn't Swedish but Turkish. When I found this out I was really surprised. The only thing that gives her away is that sometimes (rarely) she says en instead of ett or the opposite e.g. "an table" or "a apple".
It's nothing specific, I think that sometimes the natives would write something in a bit different way. For example, I think (but am not sure, I insist) that in the sentence:
"I'm not sure if I ever would've suspected that she was German if she hadn't told me; I just knew she wasn't Swedish."
the bolded words would've been written differently.
But my general opinion about your (written) English makes me put you close to the top rung of my 'private' classification of the Langcafe non-native speakers.
[/quote]
Walker
Well, I'm honored! :)
Benjamin [inactive]
I can second what KSa has said. Essentially, if I didn't know, I'd definitely think that André, Greg and KSa (and also Fredrik, but he's not here) were native speakers of English; I agree with what KSa about Walker as well. As for Sander, I suspect that he's the sort of person who doesn't bother to type properly on the internet, but can actually speak English much better in real life.
Actually, no. There is one thing which makes it absolutely obvious that Greg is not a native English speaker. Despite his extremely high level of English, there is one thing he hasn't learnt: in typed English, one does not generally leave a space before exclamation marks, question marks, colons and semicolons.
Loic
I must say, it is hard for me to identify native and non-native speakers on the Internet. Some people are just careless and pay scant attention to things which they consider to be trivial: orthography, grammar, punctuation, etc.
I may be rhetoric here but it is far easier to identify whether he's writing in British or American English (duh!). That in turn hints to me his origins.
Deborah
patriccke wrote:
Deborah wrote:
Oui, je parle le francaise beaucoup meilleur que greg. Y hablar espanol mayor que patriccke. :wink:
:D It is be true for the Spanish (each time I am try speak it, words are come in Italish). But I catchup with mine perfect English!!!
El tuo inglaise est vraimente perfecto!
André in Zuid-Afrika
KSa wrote:
Do you often meet people speaking your language in a way that you don't recognize them as non-native speaker?
Many English speakers here speak fluent Afrikaans, without a trace of an English accent. The same applies to many Afrikaans speakers, who speak fluent English without an Afrikaans accent. Generally, Afrikaans speakers speak better English than English speakers speak Afrikaans (older generations at least, younger English speakers are mostly fluent or at least fairly fluent in Afrikaans. You'd also find many Xhosa, Zulu, etc. speakers who speak fluent Afrikaans and/or English (and vice versa).
BTW, thanks for the compliment on my English! :wink: :D
KSa
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
KSa wrote:
Do you often meet people speaking your language in a way that you don't recognize them as non-native speaker?
Many English speakers here speak fluent Afrikaans, without a trace of an English accent. The same applies to many Afrikaans speakers, who speak fluent English without an Afrikaans accent. Generally, Afrikaans speakers speak better English than English speakers speak Afrikaans (older generations at least, younger English speakers are mostly fluent or at least fairly fluent in Afrikaans. You'd also find many Xhosa, Zulu, etc. speakers who speak fluent Afrikaans and/or English (and vice versa).
BTW, thanks for the compliment on my English! :wink: :D
I think it's mainly the case of multilingual/multicultural countries like SA where it's easy to access a language you want to learn (native speakers, newspapers, TV channels etc.). Otherwise it might be harder to master a language which doesn't mean impossible.
André in Zuid-Afrika
KSa wrote:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
KSa wrote:
Do you often meet people speaking your language in a way that you don't recognize them as non-native speaker?
Many English speakers here speak fluent Afrikaans, without a trace of an English accent. The same applies to many Afrikaans speakers, who speak fluent English without an Afrikaans accent. Generally, Afrikaans speakers speak better English than English speakers speak Afrikaans (older generations at least, younger English speakers are mostly fluent or at least fairly fluent in Afrikaans. You'd also find many Xhosa, Zulu, etc. speakers who speak fluent Afrikaans and/or English (and vice versa).
BTW, thanks for the compliment on my English! :wink: :D
I think it's mainly the case of multilingual/multicultural countries like SA where it's easy to access a language you want to learn (native speakers, newspapers, TV channels etc.). Otherwise it might be harder to master a language which doesn't mean impossible.
I agree. I officially started learning English in school when I was six years old. But by that time I already knew a tiny bit of English (it helped that I had an English speaking uncle). I grew up with my parents reading an English daily newspaper and English magazines along with Afrikaans newspapers, so I started reading English at a fairly early age. You hear, read, write and speak English every day, (or Afrikaans, if you're English), so you pick it up, even if you don't put much effort into learning it.
greg in noord-frankrijk
KSa wrote:
My experience doesn’t always let me judge correctly, but if I didn’t know you and according to your written English had to guess if you’re natives or not I’d place André, Greg and Walker in the native English speaker group.
Oh that was kind. :D
Benjamin wrote:
There is one thing which makes it absolutely obvious that Greg is not a native English speaker. Despite his extremely high level of English, there is one thing he hasn't learnt: in typed English, one does not generally leave a space before exclamation marks, question marks, colons and semicolons.
Oh that's even kinder ! :lol:
Benjamin [inactive]
You know, I'm not sure if I've ever seen anyone write 'kinder' before... I'm sure it's still right though!
Loic
Out of curiosity, would you consider Singaporeans to be native English speakers?
André in Zuid-Afrika
loic wrote:
Out of curiosity, would you consider Singaporeans to be native English speakers?
Hm, interesting question, I don't know. :? I've always thought of you as a native English speaker.
Walker
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
loic wrote:
Out of curiosity, would you consider Singaporeans to be native English speakers?
Hm, interesting question, I don't know. :? I've always thought of you as a native English speaker.
Same here.
About 5 years ago I lived in a dorm and at that time we had a Singaporean exchange student living there. I may be clumsy here, but his accent sounded so "Asian" to me that I was quite surprised when he told me his first language was English (although his English was perfectly fine as far as I could judge). It was just his accent that first made me believe otherwise. When I first came to Langcafé there was no doubt in my mind that your native language was English. I don't know what your accent sounds like, maybe it's similar to the accent of that exchange student I mentioned. But I suppose that one's accent is a quite secondary thing, really. There are people in Finland whose first language is Swedish but we Swedes still consider their accent to be Finnish/foreign. That doesn't mean that their Swedish isn't their first language. And of course, English is one of your official languages. I don't know how many of you there are who have English as their first language, or who consider themselves to be native English speakers. All this yackin' and still no answer. Please, blame the wine.
Loic
True. I understand what you mean. I'd say that only a significant minority of Singaporeans are first language English speakers and English is hence technically their mother tongue. Nonetheless, we speak the language with a lilt that is unique to Singapore as well as Malaysia.
To us, however, we can distinguish between a EFL (English as a First Language) Singaporean and one who speaks it as a second language. Sometimes, it even boils down to his face, believe it or not. There are people whose faces seem so 'English-speaking Singaporean' and my gut instincts are often right on most counts. All of us have a gut instinct on this matter and it helps us decide whether to first address him in English or Chinese.
Even among English-speaking families here, there are also marked differences between the level of proficiency. It all boils down to the level of education received.
The reason why I posed this question is because I've asked myself before if I consider myself to be a native speaker. After thinking long and hard about it, I'd say no. A native speaker, in my definition, must have parents as well as grandparents and great-grandparents who speak the same language.
When does this extension end?
I don't know. But I consider myself to be a mother tongue speaker of English while being a native speaker of Chinese.
Somehow, I think this fluid definition of self-identity here is also applicable in societies like South Africa where two major languages predominate and live side by side.
André in Zuid-Afrika
loic wrote:
Somehow, I think this fluid definition of self-identity here is also applicable in societies like South Africa where two major languages predominate and live side by side.
True, to some extent. I should mention firstly that we don't usually refer to "native speakers" (the word native has a somewhat negative connotation here). But one could distinguish between mother tongue speakers and home language speakers. If an Afrikaans speaker marries an English speaker, they would either use both languages at home, or choose just one. So an Afrikaans mother tongue speaker could have English as his/her home language, or vice versa.
There are a group of people who do not consider either Afrikaans or English as their "first" language, but consider both as "first".
A friend of mine has an English speaking father and an Afrikaans speaking mother. They used both languages at home (while attending Afrikaans schools).
She now works for an Afrikaans newspaper, mainly speaks Afrikaans at home (and with her parents), but consider herself to be both Afrikaans and English speaking.
Her sister uses English at home, speaks Afrikaans to her parents, and teaches Afrikaans at an English school.
Her younger brother speaks English at home, English to his father, Afrikaans (with an English accent) to his mother, English to both his sisters, and Afrikaans to their older brother.
The older brother speaks Afrikaans to... well, everybody, he actually struggles with English.
Now there's a case study for you! :lol:
Daniel
Sometimes people who sign are so impressive that you just can't believe they're NOT Deaf!
Once I became friends with this guy and over time I got to know him. I took no notice of his sign language because it was as good as mine, well, even better! He is fluid, flowing and just fluent.
One night, we were sitting down having a conversation when we heard a loud bang. I could hear it because I was wearing my hearing aid at the time but he wasn't and yet he reacted. Puzzled, I asked him "Did you just hear that?" and he said "Erm, yeah. Why?" I said "A-a-aren't you Deaf?" to which he replied "No. You thought I was Deaf? You never knew I was hearing the whole time? Hahahahahaha!" I'd known him for months and all that time I'd truly thought he was Deaf! It's because his sign language was native-like that I didn't question it! :shock:
Walker
Daniel wrote:
Sometimes people who sign are so impressive that you just can't believe they're NOT Deaf!
Once I became friends with this guy and over time I got to know him. I took no notice of his sign language because it was as good as mine, well, even better! He is fluid, flowing and just fluent.
One night, we were sitting down having a conversation when we heard a loud bang. I could hear it because I was wearing my hearing aid at the time but he wasn't and yet he reacted. Puzzled, I asked him "Did you just hear that?" and he said "Erm, yeah. Why?" I said "A-a-aren't you Deaf?" to which he replied "No. You thought I was Deaf? You never knew I was hearing the whole time? Hahahahahaha!" I'd known him for months and all that time I'd truly thought he was Deaf! It's because his sign language was native-like that I didn't question it! :shock:
Funny story, Daniel! That guy could fool anybody. Last Sunday I went home from Gothenburg by train and there were two girls sitting where I was sitting. One of them never spoke but used sign language a couple of times, and the other girl obviously knew sign lagnuage as well. However, after two or three hours the girl whom I thought was deaf said "thanks" when I moved aside when she stood up to go to the bathroom. Later when I and the girls had stepped off the train I heard them talk to each other. I guess they just didn't feel like speaking out loud on the train with people sitting on each side of them.
Daniel
Walker wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Sometimes people who sign are so impressive that you just can't believe they're NOT Deaf!
Once I became friends with this guy and over time I got to know him. I took no notice of his sign language because it was as good as mine, well, even better! He is fluid, flowing and just fluent.
One night, we were sitting down having a conversation when we heard a loud bang. I could hear it because I was wearing my hearing aid at the time but he wasn't and yet he reacted. Puzzled, I asked him "Did you just hear that?" and he said "Erm, yeah. Why?" I said "A-a-aren't you Deaf?" to which he replied "No. You thought I was Deaf? You never knew I was hearing the whole time? Hahahahahaha!" I'd known him for months and all that time I'd truly thought he was Deaf! It's because his sign language was native-like that I didn't question it! :shock:
Funny story, Daniel! That guy could fool anybody. Last Sunday I went home from Gothenburg by train and there were two girls sitting where I was sitting. One of them never spoke but used sign language a couple of times, and the other girl obviously knew sign lagnuage as well. However, after two or three hours the girl whom I thought was deaf said "thanks" when I moved aside when she stood up to go to the bathroom. Later when I and the girls had stepped off the train I heard them talk to each other. I guess they just didn't feel like speaking out loud on the train with people sitting on each side of them.
Yeah, this is the advantage that Deaf people whose speech AND hearing are good. When they're not comfortable with the possibility of people eavesdropping they would sign. I often do this.
However, there are some people out there who know sign language so they can actually be "eavesdropping" your conversations.
One time, my friend and I were in a bar we talked about how hot that guy over there was and my friend was telling me in deep details about how she'd love to "do" him. Then suddenly, he came over, and to our horror, he started talking in sign language. Needlessly to say, we were so embarrassed we just wanted to die! :lol:
Walker
Quote:
One time, my friend and I were in a bar we talked about how hot that guy over there was and my friend was telling me in deep details about how she'd love to "do" him. Then suddenly, he came over, and to our horror, he started talking in sign language. Needlessly to say, we were so embarrassed we just wanted to die!
:oops: :oops: :oops: :lool:
Deborah
I've always thought that talking in a foreign language about someone who (you think) doesn't understand that language is just a rude as saying it in a language he does understand. The same goes for sign language.
Daniel
Deborah wrote:
I've always thought that talking in a foreign language about someone who (you think) doesn't understand that language is just a rude as saying it in a language he does understand. The same goes for sign language.
That's true...
But there are genuine situations where people speak in a language simply because they just are not comfortable with speaking in the national language or whatever.
BSL is my native and I feel most comfortable in it so I use it all the time with my Deaf BSL-using friends. I find it very weird to talk to them in English.
Unfortunately, that doesn't stop some people from thinking that we are talking about them and so they come over to confront us. I've had two guys threatening me and my Deaf friends for "talking about them" when we didn't at all.
But you're right, I hold the same opinion that in some situations where talking in another language isn't necessary it is rude to use that language for the purpose of preventing other people from understanding what you are saying. I've had that happen to me a few times and it's not a nice feeling.
David
i think that non-nativespeakers who don't livein one of the countries where the language is spoken tendto speak more formally, probably because they are not exposed to the language's idioms, slang etc.
Those who do, however, tendto speak it more "naturally" albeit with an accent.
Liz
I know a Russian girl who speaks Hungarian *exactly* like a native speaker. She is the only person I've ever met who speaks Hungarian without any trace of a foreign accent and with a near perfect command of grammar and vocab. Even those very few mistakes she makes are typical native "mistakes" (not really mistakes, rather non-standard forms).
She moved to Hungary at the age of twelve, and after a few years it was hard to tell her from a native speaker. It's amazing.
Pete from Peru
Hello everybody.
One day, I was taking a group of students to the local harbour so they could take a trip to some islands nearby... to see the wildlife. I had just finished explaining the itinerary when, all of a sudden, one guy from the group asked me what time it was and if we would get to the harbour on time.
All that was said in a perfect Castillian accent. So we started to talk about what sort of things they had been doing in Peru. I learnt that he was the group leader and that all the other students were from some school in England. We carried on talking and we were interrupted by the driver who told us tha we had arrived.
When someone asked me where they were from, I said 'Oh they're twenty British students and a Spaniard!'... As I had said so, this chap turned round and said 'No, we're all English'... So, my jaw hit the floor. When I regained composure, I quickly asked 'Are you not Spanish?'. 'No' came the reply.
In the end, he told me that he studied Spanish in England for about 3 years, and he'd acquired by listening to Spanish radios, watching Spanish films, etc.
That was the best non-native Spanish speaker I've ever met. And he was absolutely amazing. In a way, sometimes... He could speak better Spanish than me.
Regards
Pedro de Peru[/i][/u]
Loic
Welcome, Pete! Or do you prefer to be addressed as Pedro?
That boy probably possesses a very good brain between his ears. I suppose such examples are generally more of an exception than a rule.
Pete from Peru
Loic wrote:
Welcome, Pete! Or do you prefer to be addressed as Pedro?
That boy probably possesses a very good brain between his ears. I suppose such examples are generally more of an exception than a rule.
Thank you, Loic. You can call me Pedro, that's my real name. Well, for sure, that boy was exceptional. I also remember a family of French people. They all could speak good Spanish but a lady there was very good. Her accent was perfect. I could only tell she was French when I heard her using the verb "ser" for "estar" once, only once. But over all, she had near-native command of the language.
And there was this other girl who I met in a boulevard near home. I heard her speak in English with her friend. She had some sort of posh Cockney accent, it was cool. Later on , I found her reading a book in Italian. And I asked her "Are you learning Italian?". And she looked at me in surprise and said "I am Italian!". And then all those questions again... How? How long did it take? So perfect English!
She had been living in London. So I guess that's where she got the accent from. It's still remarkable because some people spend their whole lives in a foreign country and never manage to acquire the local accent.
Kind regards
Pedro en Perú
Liz
Posh Cockney? Isn't it a bit of an oxymoron?
Welcome Pedro! It's a delight to have you around. You seem to have ignored Antimoon recently, which is no wonder.
Uriel
Speaking of people who, as in Singapore, have to continually "guess" who speaks which language, we have something similar here. You see it in grocery stores all the time, where the clerk greets some people with Hi, how are you, and others with Buenas dias. Whole transactions are carried out in one language for one customer and in the other language for the next. The clerk has about two seconds to size up the next stranger and decide what they speak, and usually they guess right.
The funny stuff happens when they guess wrong, though ... the majority of Spanish speakers here are of course stereotypically brunette, with facial features that reflect a southern European/Indian background (I used to tell my ex that he had the perfect Aztec nose!). The majority of English speakers are stereotypically "Anglo" -- i.e., northern-European-looking. (We don't have many black people, and Asians are downright endangered.) So it's not hard to guess, and most hispanics here who don't speak Spanish can get by with simple pleasantries in Spanish, even if they can't carry a conversation, so if you address them in Spanish they can usually fake their way through. But one of my coworkers had a red-haired girlfriend with very "white" features who was really half-Mexican, and spoke Spanish fluently, and all kinds of mayhem would ensue when people tried to "talk behind her back" in Spanish (she lived up to certain stereotypes about redheads, apparently!).
Pete from Peru
Oh that's interesting.
The problem here in Peru is that in environments where you would meet foreigners, for example in tourism. The only language that they think must be useful is English. Whenever they see a white-skinned person, with green or blue eyes and stuff. They try to speak to them in English, even if they don't speak English they say whatever they happen to know or remember from school.
That happened to me once. A couple of tall and blonde people came to me and I spoke to them in English about tours and they quickly said, "habla en Castellano, hombre. Que nosotros somos Españoles!" It was a little embarrasing actually.
Then something like that happenes to other people all the time. So now, I always ask before. Through experience I now that most people from Italy, France, Portugal and obviously Spain, would prefer to talk with us in Spanish. Whilst people from other countries usually prefer English. I always try to tell my co-workers about these things so they don't make mistakes.
Pedro en Perú
Uriel
Actually, the one Peruvian I know (well, Peruvian by way of Queens, NY) has fairly light skin (although he does have the brown eyes and black hair and still looks hispanic).
Couldn't tell you if his Spanish has an accent, but he does use yo soy peruano with a sly wink as a pick-up line. Works, too.
The Peruvian girl I knew in Georgia (actually from Peru)was even whiter-looking, with brown hair (I don't remember her eye color, though).
My ex-boyfriend also had a roommate who was half black but had been raised by his Mexican (and non-English-speaking) mother, and he spoke perfect Spanish, probably to many people's shock.
