I haven't tried the "light" ones, e.g. marijuana, ecstasy, heavy-tipped markers, etc. Of those that are legal, the only one that I've ingested is alcohol, which I have yet to appreciate. My stepfather used to smoke very heavily, so until three or so years ago I was exposed to tobacco fumes at an average rate of every two weeks.
I'd say that I don't care which drug someone uses, as long as s/he is at least 1 km away from me. Conversely, anti-smoking ordinances are perfectly fine in my opinion, though prohibition is questionable: your liver can't be clogged by a drinker, yet your lungs can be by a smoker.
Fredrik
I have neither tried narcotic drugs nor more than a few cigarettes in my life.
Just plain alcohol for me.
And as a true native of the Nordic countries I vigorously support bans on narcotic drugs, foul-smelling tobacco (cigars just smell to nice to be banned...) and spirits (what do people need them for!?).
Just beer and wine - that's my prescription for the world!
Deborah
Having gone to college in the late '60s, it seemed perfectly natural to me that I tried most everything except heroine at least once. (I'm sure there are other things I didn't try -- I'll try to come up with a few.) However, the only substances I used on a regular basis were alcohol and marijuana. I didn't try marijuana until my first year in college, and by a year after I graduated, I had stopped smoking it. I'm very much a social drinker, which means that unless I'm with someone else who's drinking, I don't drink. Currently I'm not around people who drink. I recently decided I should try drinking one glass of red wine a day because it's supposed to be good for your heart and other things. That was a couple of weeks ago, and I've managed to get myself to drink a glass of wine 3 times, I think.
Benjamin [inactive]
I only really drink wine and the occasional brandy. I've been drinking wine on a fairly regular basis since I was about 13 or 14, although I'd had the occasional glass (often diluted with water), especially at Christmas and New Year, for several years before. I remember that I first tasted wine when I was 5, as that is the age that parents can legally give their children alcohol here.
And by the way, I've always seen that experience as totally normal — I'd say that I drink far less alcohol than most people my age here. It surprised that some people here thought it was strange when I mentioned it here before.
Deborah
It doesn't seem strange to me, though it's very un-American. And it also makes sens to me that you would drink less than other people, having been brought up that way.
I did think of another drug I've never tried -- cocaine. Actually, once a friend of mine in college shared some supposed cocaine with me, but we didn't feel anything, so we figured he'd paid for nothing. By the time cocaine had become the drug to do, I'd stopped doing drugs.
Uriel
Well, I went to college in California, and I think bong hits were a requirement.... These days I'll drink socially, but I'm pretty much a lightweight -- a couple drinks and I'm pretty silly. Hey, it makes me a cheap date!
Deborah
Oh, and I've never smoked a cigarette. Once, in college, as part of a costume, I carried a lit cigarette (shame!) and drew some smoke into my mouth so's I could blow it out, but I didn't inhale. I never had any desire to smoke, either. Once my parents divorced, when I was 4, our (my mother's) household was a smokeless one. My mother was way ahead of her time and would ask people to leave the house if they wanted to smoke.
André in Zuid-Afrika
I smoked dagga (marijuana) on two occasions many years ago, and hated it on both occasions. I've never tried any other hard drugs since, never been interested. I smoked cigarettes for about 15 years. As for alcohol, I enjoy a good wine and beer on occasion. ANd yes, I've been drunk on occasion!
It's true that a person drinking too much doesn't directly influence another person's health the way smoking does. But a drunk person is also a dangerous person. Alcohol abuse amongst black and coloured people* is a massive problem in SA. No weekend goes by without people being killed in drunken brawls, women being raped by drunk men, children being abused by drunk parents.
* This is not to say that alcoholabuse doesn't appear in the white community, but it's far less of a problem.
And then there's foetal alcohol syndrome....
Quote:
Foetal Alcohol Syndrome hits crisis proportions
The dry and dusty town of De Aar in South Africa's Northern Cape province is unremarkable in every way but one. It has the world's highest prevalence of Foetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS), the group of physical and mental defects caused by alcohol consumption during pregnancy, according to the Foundation for Alcohol Related Research (FARR), an NGO that carried out a five-year survey of the community's newborns.
More than one in 10 babies in De Aar aged up to 12 months suffered from a severe form of FAS. Just as worrying was the finding that up to 50 percent of children were in some way afflicted by FAS, which is characterised by brain damage, facial deformities and growth deficits.
FARR founder Denis Viljoen maintained that the high prevalence of FAS in De Aar was intrinsically linked to the demise of the town's railway junction, one of the largest in the country.
The community's economic existence was entirely dependant on the railway junction until South Africa's parastatal transport company, Transnet, decided to cut back on operations during the latter half of the last century, causing the unemployment rate to shoot up to 80 percent and creating a depressing environment in which alcohol abuse has become commonplace, said Viljoen.
FARR, which was invited to conduct the survey by the provincial government, examines 100 babies a month in De Aar. "It is more difficult to diagnose the condition in babies than young children," he said. Heart, liver, and kidney defects also are common symptoms of the syndrome, as well as vision and hearing problems. Individuals with FAS have difficulties with learning, attention, memory and problem solving.
To prevent the next generation of FAS babies, FARR is concentrating its efforts on mothers. "In conjunction with the survey, we provide an education programme for the mothers who take part to make them aware that there are dangers to their unborn children if they drink while pregnant," said Viljoen.
FAS has been prevalent in South Africa for many decades, but the scale of the problem among marginalised communities in the Western and Northern Cape provinces has only came to light during the past 10 years as a result of the research carried out by FARR.
De Aar might have the highest levels of recorded FAS in the world, but extreme socioeconomic inequalities, giving rise to an environment in which alcohol abuse thrives, are widespread in South Africa, where the national unemployment rate is an estimated 40 percent.
A FARR survey carried out in the Soweto township of Johannesburg revealed that 25 in every 1,000 seven-year-olds tested had a severe form of the syndrome. By comparison, surveys in the USA indicate a prevalence rate of 1 or 2 per 1,000 births.
According to Viljoen, at any given time 500,000 South Africans are suffering from Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASD), an umbrella term describing the range of symptoms that can be manifested by an individual whose mother drank alcohol during pregnancy, including the narrower group usually encountered under FAS.
The disorder can also have larger implications for the society. People living with FASD have an "IQ [that] is low as a result of their stunted brains and, consequently, they can be easily influenced and led astray. Unfortunately, they are more likely to be shoving a knife into someone than paying their taxes," he added.
FAS can be traced back to the illegal "dop" or tot system, in which white-owned vineyards paid their black and mixed race employees in part with low-grade wine as an alternative to cash.
The "dop" system left a legacy of alcohol abuse and dependency. Workers employed in vineyards spent a substantial portion of their salaries on alcohol, according to surveys conducted by the Dopstop Association, an NGO combating the problem.
"Shebeens" or informal bars found in every township in South Africa have replaced the "dop" system. "When coupled with poverty the shebeen system creates a similar environment, where alcohol abuse flourishes. We are discovering extremely high levels of FASD in many other places throughout South Africa - other towns and cities that are not linked to the wine-growing regions but struggle with high poverty levels and unemployment," Viljoen commented.
At last count, Viljeon's research team recorded 99 illegal shebeens operating in De Aar, a town of 28,000 inhabitants, the majority of whom had migrated from the Western Cape to work for Transnet.
Last Wednesday was a public holiday in South Africa, and consequently De Aar's drinking establishments were full for most of the day.
Groups of men and women sat languidly outside the "shebeens" on every street, drinking potent homebrewed concoctions - made from yeast, sugar and bread - out of plastic containers. By late evening dozens of inebriated men and women were either walking unsteadily through township streets or lying in a drunken stupor after having collapsed.
The following morning, when the research team went to collect the mothers who had agreed to have their babies examined, some women refused, saying they were still too drunk.
Anna Marie Kok, 26, who had brought her baby girl to the research team's Joan Wertheim clinic in Sunrise township, said that while she did not consume alcohol, many pregnant women in her community did.
"The problem is poverty - there is no work so they have nothing to do. People know about FASD but they drink anyway; they have so many other problems to deal with that they need to escape. When they drink the homebrew they say: 'We don't need to eat when we drink this'," she explained.
Tackling FASD in South Africa will not be an easy task, Viljoen maintained, even though the disorder is completely preventable if the mother abstains from drinking while pregnant.
"It will take at least 20 years to change the mindset that allows FASD to flourish," he noted, adding that lack of awareness was a major hurdle as it also prevented early diagnosis.
I havn't smoked or tried drugs. It's not allowed for me drinking alcohol, but when they don't knwo sometimes I drink a glass of wine and about 3 times I have drunk a cocktail : I think that they are very pretty and nice.
Loic
I am unequivocally against any 'hard drugs' like marijuana or cocaine. Has anyone read the news about the appearance of a spiritual descendent of Jack the Ripper in Suffolk? Most of the victims were prostitutes who were driven into the wretched trade because of their drug habit.
Benjamin [inactive]
I find it interesting that you refer to marijuana as a 'hard' drug.
Loic
It is. Anyone caught smuggling marijuana into Singapore faces the gallows here.
I don't agree with the capital punishment, but I share our government's sense of gravity towards the drug.
Other drugs which might earn the hapless smuggler a date with the hangman include heroine and opium inter alia.
Benjamin [inactive]
loic wrote:
It is. Anyone caught smuggling marijuana into Singapore faces the gallows here.
It would definitely be considered a 'soft' drug here. It's still technically illegal, but I see/smell people smoking it on the bus every day and no-one bats an eyelid.
(I didn't realise that the hard/soft distinction was based upon government legislation).
Deborah
Lumping marijuana in with heroine and opium shows an ignorance of the effects of various substances.
Pauline
Marijuana has many good effects for people who have diverse symtoms / problems and sometimes doctors agree that for someone, marijuana will be a very good medicine. Nicotine can help some people also, but of course if you will get this from cigarettes there will be negative side-effects.
I think that it's a pity ignorantly generalise that all drugs what are recreational used can't be medicinal.
The Singapore government is wrong : if marijuana's a hard drug, what's a soft drug - coca cola ? Murder someone because they have marijuana is absoltuly horrible and wrong, also ignorant with incorrect prioritys.
Quote:
Has anyone read the news about the appearance of a spiritual descendent of Jack the Ripper in Suffolk? Most of the victims were prostitutes who were driven into the wretched trade because of their drug habit.
but who 's guilty ? The prostitutes = no, the murderer = yes. It's possible he has a drug habit, but we don't know. it would be incorrect blaming drugs for this murders, *probably* the murderer is psychopath ( person who hasn't conscience, empathy etc... : this isn't an illness but a personality disorder ).
Can you know for sure that the protistutes had drug habits ? I think that it would be more sure that they had very difficult lifes, and therefore some of them have drug habits also. It's speculation.
Loic
I do not care to know about the subtle distinction between marijuana or opium. Both kinds of drugs ruin lives. They destroy families. They destabilise the basic unit of society. Nobody can plausibly argue that marijuana is 'good for you' - unlike Guinness.
As for the prostitutes in Suffolk, I am just using them as an example to make manifest the adverse effects of having a drug habit. Supporting a drug habit is prohibitively expensive and the craving for a quick fix has pushed many people into doing immoral and illegal work in order to satisfy their habits.
What is a 'soft' drug? Ketamine, I suppose. Most 'party drugs' are soft drugs here. It is still illegal to bring them in here without a valid licence, but the crime does not merit the death penalty.
PS: I reiterate that I am adamantly against the death penalty.
PPS: I am also anti-abortion.
Deborah
loic wrote:
I do not care to know about the subtle distinction between marijuana or opium.
"Subtle"? Again, this shows great ignorance of the effects of marijuana.
Quote:
Both kinds of drugs ruin lives. They destroy families.
Cigarettes do that.
Quote:
As for the prostitutes in Suffolk, I am just using them as an example to make manifest the adverse effects of having a drug habit. Supporting a drug habit is prohibitively expensive and the craving for a quick fix has pushed many people into doing immoral and illegal work in order to satisfy their habits.
That's the result of the criminalization of drug use.
Loic
Au contraire, cigarettes do not ruin lives. This shows great ignorance of the effects of tobacco.
If you wish to criminalise anything, do it properly and well or don't do it at all. Benjamin mentioned that marijuana is readily available on the streets despite it being an illicit and hence banned substance. Such half-hearted measures do not work at all. Instead, they give people plenty of loopholes to exploit and to sneak through the legal barriers that were erected by the government.
Pauline
Quote:
Au contraire, cigarettes do not ruin lives. This shows great ignorance of the effects of tobacco
I disagree. There are negative side effects of smoking cigarettes, for exemple more chance to get lung cancer and heart problems. People who have allergys, lung conditions and other things can experience discomfort when someone near them is smoking. But, on the other side, nicotine can help some people who have illness.
Quote:
Nobody can plausibly argue that marijuana is 'good for you' - unlike Guinness.
Marijuana can help people also for exemple with multiple sclerosis and other things. It's not different in concept that amphetamines : this is recreationally used, but it can alleviate asthma. Now, there are other medicines what are give for asthma, but before, amphetamines was prescribed.Amphetamines are dangerous for the heart and some people think that marijuana can cause schizophrenia but it's not proved. But until there are better medicines without side effects to replace nicotine, marijuana etc.. I think it's cruel to not allow those people getting the help. All drugs - medicinal or recreational have side effects ( some potentially fatal ).
Quote:
I reiterate that I am adamantly against the death penalty.
I agree with you !!!
Quote:
I do not care to know about the subtle distinction between marijuana or opium.
Although opiates have medicinal uses what are valuable, it would be more serious taking this recreationally that marijuana. All drugs will have a different effect, and all people will react other also. This differences subtle or not subtle are always important and relevant. For have an informed opinion, it's necessary know the disctinctions between the drugs and understand that they can be beneficial as well as destructive : the drugs
are not evil, what's important is how we use them.
Loic, maybe one day, you or someone in your family will suffer an illness without cure. You / they will discover that marijuana or opium can make them to feel much better. What you would do ?
Benjamin [inactive]
loic wrote:
I do not care to know about the subtle distinction between marijuana or opium.
I can only repeat what Deborah has said twice — this shows an ignorance of either the effects of marijuana, the effects of heroin, or both. It is not subtle at all. If anything, I'd say that the effects of marijuana (which is arguably less addictive than tobacco anyway) are far closer to the effects of tobacco than to the effects of heroin. What do you think, Deborah? You know far more about this subject than me.
I actually feel that equating marijuana with heroin is potentially dangerous. Someone who has already tried marijuana may be more inclined to try something like heroin if they believe that the difference is merely 'subtle'.
I know quite a few people who smoke marijuana on a regular basis, and I know many more who have in the past. I do not think any less of these people than of people who smoke tobacco. A few weeks ago, when our Polish exchange partners were with us, we (students from school and the Polish students) went to a pub and sat outside. Some people from my school were smoking marijuana. I'd personally prefer that they didn't, but I can tolerate it as long as it's outside (same for tobacco). But if they had been smoking heroin or cocaine, it would have been a completely different story — I'd have left straight away.
loic wrote:
Supporting a drug habit is prohibitively expensive and the craving for a quick fix has pushed many people into doing immoral and illegal work in order to satisfy their habits.
Incidentally, prostitution in itself is perfectly legal here. However, it is illegal to pimp, to advertise prostitution services or to own a brothel (although considering the number of brothels around here, I tend to get the impression that this last law is seldom enforced).
loic wrote:
If you wish to criminalise anything, do it properly and well or don't do it at all. Benjamin mentioned that marijuana is readily available on the streets despite it being an illicit and hence banned substance. Such half-hearted measures do not work at all. Instead, they give people plenty of loopholes to exploit and to sneak through the legal barriers that were erected by the government.
Precisely, which is why I'd recommend that the ban on marijuana be lifted. Thankfully, my overall perception is that Britain will go the way of the Netherlands fairly soon, as the government has been gradually decreasing the 'illegalness' of it.
Loic
Pauline: It wouldn't pose a moral paradox to me at all if a hypothetical family member of mine needs an illicit drug for medicinal purposes. Under the penal code, it is not a crime to import drugs such as opium for medicinal purpose. The line is only drawn when these drugs are abused for recreational purposes.
Benjamin: I admit, I do not know about the difference and since all of you are adamant that there is a world of a difference, I'd take you at your word and agree that marijuana is just a hyped up version of tobacco.
Still, I wonder why the tone of this board so far has been one of kindness towards drug abusers. I am wondering if all of you actually emphatically approve it. On the other hand, there is a blanket condemnation of something as innocuous as smoking cigarettes. It makes me wonder if there is some kind of hypocrisy involved here.
Deborah
Benjamin wrote:
If anything, I'd say that the effects of marijuana (which is arguably less addictive than tobacco anyway) are far closer to the effects of tobacco than to the effects of heroin. What do you think, Deborah? You know far more about this subject than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I've never smoked tobacco, so I can't compare its effects with those of smoking marijuana. And it's been a very long time since I've used the latter (34 years since I used it on any sort of regular basis and 22 years since the last isolated time I tried it). But I do recall that it felt quite different from drinking. For one thing, I didn't lose motor skills. When I had a lot of it, I lost the energy to do a lot of physical activity, but when I could motivate myself to stand up (say, to go to the kitchen for something to eat), I never experienced the lack of coordination that comes from drinking too much. I knew a few people in my dance company who'd take ballet classes when they were high, though I couldn't imagine how they managed that.
I just went on a search for enlightenment (on the internet ) on the subject of describing a marijuana high to someone who had never experienced it, and came across a couple of threads in some forum in which people did just that. The answer I found that most succinctly described how I felt when I smoked it is that it enhanced whatever I felt. For instance if I felt happy, being in company I liked and doing things that I liked to do, it just felt better if I was high. It makes food taste incredibly good, which is a good thing, since marijuana tends to stimulate your appetite. (The only time I ever really enjoyed popcorn was when I was high.) I remember going with my boyfriend to see Disney's Lady and the Tramp when we were high, and we were in ecstasies (occasionally vocally, to the amusement -- I hope -- of the people around us) every time some beautifully drawn background appeared on the screen.
The first sign of feeling high, as I recall, was one of euphoria and giddiness. Eventually the giddiness would mellow out (I always pictured it as spreading out) and I'd get very relaxed. (Hmm, it's all coming back to me...) I read someone's comment about feeling "connected" to things -- to the other people in the room, to nature, to the universe -- and remembered that I did often feel like that with the people I was smoking with. Ironically, these days, if I go to a party where people are smoking marijuana, they seem very detached to me.
Just as with alcohol, you can get a little high or very high. But I never heard of anyone who was very high on marijuana getting violent, as very drunk people often do. And I never had anything like a hangover from marijuana. I also never felt anything like a dependence, either physical or psychological, on marijuana. As time went by, the euphoric feeling decreased and would feel mainly the physical reactions -- relaxation and the munchies. Finally I stopped doing it, when I was 22.
I hope that gives you some idea of what marijuana is like, Benjamin. But of course that's only how it felt to me.
loic wrote:
Still, I wonder why the tone of this board so far has been one of kindness towards drug abusers. I am wondering if all of you actually emphatically approve it. On the other hand, there is a blanket condemnation of something as innocuous as smoking cigarettes. It makes me wonder if there is some kind of hypocrisy involved here.
Good questions. But I wonder just what you mean by drug abusers, as opposed to users, or whether you would even make that distinction. And would you make a distinction between alcohol or tobacco users and abusers? I don't approve of drug abuse, but my definition might be quite different from yours.
As for smoking marijuana compared to smoking cigarettes, ever since I stopped smoking the former, I haven't liked being around the smoke. In fact, I didn't even like it when I was smoking it, but I put up with it because I liked getting high. But the thing about people smoking marijuana is that people tend to share it. The last time I went to a party where people were smoking, it was in the kitchen and there was just one joint (as I still think of it -- what in the world do people say today?) being passed around. But no one passes around a cigarette, so there were several of those in that confined space and I had to leave. Secondhand marijuana smoke doesn't irritate my airways the way cigarette smoke does.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Deborah wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
If anything, I'd say that the effects of marijuana (which is arguably less addictive than tobacco anyway) are far closer to the effects of tobacco than to the effects of heroin. What do you think, Deborah? You know far more about this subject than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I've never smoked tobacco, so I can't compare its effects with those of smoking marijuana.
Since I've smoked both cigarettes and marijuana, I have to say that it's Benjamin's statement is not valid. While smoking tobacco as a negative effect on the body in the long run, it has no immediate effects. The only side effects I ever felt with cigarettes was a slight and short feeling of dizziness when I smoked a cigarette after not having smoked for a long time. And I seriously doubt whether marijuana is less addictive than tobacco. You have to smoke tobacco for quite a period, and on a daily basis, before becoming addicted.
Quote:
But I never heard of anyone who was very high on marijuana getting violent, as very drunk people often do.
I have. In fact, I frequently read about this in our newspapers, and have written stories on such incidents myself. Many perpetrators of violent crimes here, especially rape, have admitted in court that they smoked marijuana before the time. But then of course they smoked a lot of it. People who smoke it at parties, usually don't smoke enough of it to get violent. In terms of this, alcohol certanly is more dangerous.
Hehe, I experienced similar "symptoms" as Deborah both times when I smoked dope. And I also became very loving... But I did feel out of control, more so than with alcohol, which I disliked.
The bottomline is, any substance is bad for you when abused, whether it's marijuana, alcohol, tobacco or heroin, and holds a health risk. It's only the degree which varies.
And I agree that there is a difference between people using a substance, and abusing it. The problem is that many people move from using it to [/abusing[/i] it. That goes for all drugs (including tobacco and alcohol).
All drugs should be strictly controlled, if it's not banned. In South Africa, it is already illegal to sell cigarettes to minors (16 and younger), and it will soon become illegal for stores to visibly display cigarettes. Very few places are left where smoking is allowed, and there is even talk of making it illegal to smoke in houses where minors live, to smoke in cars, etc.
Benjamin [inactive]
Deborah wrote:
I hope that gives you some idea of what marijuana is like, Benjamin. But of course that's only how it felt to me.
Lol, you make it sound like a good idea! But thanks for the explanation!
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Since I've smoked both cigarettes and marijuana, I have to say that it's Benjamin's statement is not valid. While smoking tobacco as a negative effect on the body in the long run, it has no immediate effects. The only side effects I ever felt with cigarettes was a slight and short feeling of dizziness when I smoked a cigarette after not having smoked for a long time. And I seriously doubt whether marijuana is less addictive than tobacco. You have to smoke tobacco for quite a period, and on a daily basis, before becoming addicted.
Fair enough. I was trying to find some way of explaining how I didn't think that marijuana ought to be lumped in with heroin, whilst tobacco and alcohol being considered much 'safer'. But that probably wasn't the most appropriate way to do it.
Kirk
I drink sometimes and that's it :) Like Deborah I also almost never drink if someone else isn't drinking with me. Since I spend comparatively little time in my studio and plenty of time out and about that means the alcohol in my fridge just sits there till someone comes over and we decide to have a drink or two.
For me the concept of regulation, especially for non-hard drugs like tobacco and marijuana, is heavily tied in with the idea of the social contract and the "you have every right to swing your fist around till it hits my nose" basis upon which many/most laws are built. I'm not for prohibition but I am for tough secondhand smoke restrictions (this also means I'm not against legalization of marijuana as a substance but I would not favor it being allowed in smoke form in the places where smoking tobacco is also not allowed. However, special brownie cafes would be fine by me--no one consuming a pot brownie is forcing anyone else to participate in the action but themselves so that seems fair). By this point in the game with the evidence there is out there for the harm secondhand smoke causes any society which is serious about this significant public health issue is obligated to restrict where secondhand smoke may occur and I support further restrictions.
In the past few months the US has seen its first red states, Colorado and Arizona, pass comprehensive statewide workplace smoking bans (by "comprehensive" I mean all indoor workplaces including restaurants and even bars), which had thitherto only been seen in something like 13 coastal blue states such as California, Washington, and New York. This "move to the middle" means that such secondhand smoking restrictions are moving past their "crazy California health nut" origins and into an accepted public health norm. This is a very encouraging development.
And now that Arizona is civilized I can visit my relatives there without being unwillfully exposed to the indoor smoke everywhere!
Porthos
It's funny that you posted this thread because I was going to start something similar myself. In America, it is not usually acceptable for teenagers to drink, let alone legal. Some parents allow their kids to drink in moderation while at home and under their watch, but most parents don't allow their kids to drink. My mom will occassionally let me drink one beer or one glass of wine, but that's only on special occassions. I was sort of a rebel for a few years, so I drank all the time before, although my mother never new of course. I think anything that tastes so foul as to make you grimmace should not be drunk, even if makes you look "cool" or "manly". I like beer a lot, especially an ice cold Pacifico! Um, yum, delicious. And I like some wine, particularly begginner's wine like Riesling. That's yummy too. But I've tried stuff like Jack Daniel's and it's just revolting.
And I've never tried any drugs, nor do I intend on ever trying any of them. My father was a hard core drug addict, and it made my life miserable, so I have vowed to never let that happen to myself. But I do love the smell of marijuana, I can't help it. Especially when the stoners at school smoke reefer in the bathrooms. It replaces the nasty smell of feces with the soothing smell of marijuana, lol.
Kirk
Porthos wrote:
It's funny that you posted this thread because I was going to start something similar myself. In America, it is not usually acceptable for teenagers to drink, let alone legal. Some parents allow their kids to drink in moderation while at home and under their watch, but most parents don't allow their kids to drink. My mom will occassionally let me drink one beer or one glass of wine, but that's only on special occassions. I was sort of a rebel for a few years, so I drank all the time before, although my mother never new of course. I think anything that tastes so foul as to make you grimmace should not be drunk, even if makes you look "cool" or "manly". I like beer a lot, especially an ice cold Pacifico! Um, yum, delicious. And I like some wine, particularly begginner's wine like Riesling. That's yummy too. But I've tried stuff like Jack Daniel's and it's just revolting.
When you get older you can try some Jack with a mixer like Coke and you might find it more palatable :)
Porthos
Kirk wrote:
Porthos wrote:
It's funny that you posted this thread because I was going to start something similar myself. In America, it is not usually acceptable for teenagers to drink, let alone legal. Some parents allow their kids to drink in moderation while at home and under their watch, but most parents don't allow their kids to drink. My mom will occassionally let me drink one beer or one glass of wine, but that's only on special occassions. I was sort of a rebel for a few years, so I drank all the time before, although my mother never new of course. I think anything that tastes so foul as to make you grimmace should not be drunk, even if makes you look "cool" or "manly". I like beer a lot, especially an ice cold Pacifico! Um, yum, delicious. And I like some wine, particularly begginner's wine like Riesling. That's yummy too. But I've tried stuff like Jack Daniel's and it's just revolting.
When you get older you can try some Jack with a mixer like Coke and you might find it more palatable :)
Kirk, since you live in San Fran, maybe you've heard of an Asian resteraunt called "Betle Nut"?
Deborah
loic wrote:
Au contraire, cigarettes do not ruin lives. This shows great ignorance of the effects of tobacco.
Cigarettes ruined my father's life, and at a pretty early age.
Porthos
It's funny that people like Loic from diverse countries don't think of tobacco in such a negative light as we do here. Here, nearly all Americans, even smokers, will freely admit that smoking tobacco is deadly. Apparently, that is not the case in other places. People are still mislead by tobacco company propoganda.
Pauline
Deborah,
I'm very sad to read, that cigarettes ruined your father's life.
I think that from the beginning of 2007 it will be illegal smoking in a restaurant in Belgium, and in all places where there's food. On cigarette packs it's written that cigarettes kill, cause cancer and make your skin old. The letters are enormous : you can recognise a cigarette pack because you will see this warning from far away.
Kirk
Pauline wrote:
I think that from the beginning of 2007 it will be illegal smoking in a restaurant in Belgium, and in all places where there's food
That's a step in the right direction! That's good news for Belgium.
Porthos wrote:
It's funny that people like Loic from diverse countries don't think of tobacco in such a negative light as we do here. Here, nearly all Americans, even smokers, will freely admit that smoking tobacco is deadly. Apparently, that is not the case in other places. People are still mislead by tobacco company propoganda.
Well people here are definitely still subject to and misled by Big Tobacco propaganda. Just look at Prop 86, which enjoyed pretty wide support initially and was expected to pass but Big Tobacco spent an unprecedented amount of money on Anti-Prop 86 ads which billed it as something supposedly benefiting "hospital corporations" (for Big Tobacco to imply anyone else is bad by being a big bad "corporation" is literally sick). Big Tobacco claims to want to reduce teen smoking but everyone knows they still covertly target underage smokers, as that's when the great majority of smokers still start. Higher cigarette taxes are a proven method to help deter youth smoking, one of the best ways, no matter what the money actually goes to (in Prop 86's case it would've gone to antismoking programs, smoking cessation programs, as well as giving health insurance to all children in California who are currently uninsured. The latter is not directly related to tobacco but tobacco is such a drain on public health resources that's really a drop in the bucket of a gain back). What Big Tobacco did with Prop 86 was despicable and certainly manipulative.
Porthos wrote:
Kirk, since you live in San Fran, maybe you've heard of an Asian resteraunt called "Betle Nut"?
Nope, can't say it rings a bell. You been?
Benjamin [inactive]
Kirk wrote:
Pauline wrote:
I think that from the beginning of 2007 it will be illegal smoking in a restaurant in Belgium, and in all places where there's food
That's a step in the right direction! That's good news for Belgium.
Yes — I remember watching a new programme about it (in French) last time I was in Belgium.
In Scotland, they have already banned smoking in all restaurants, cafés, pubs and bars. They're going to do the same in the rest of the UK next year.
Uriel
Ketamine as a "soft" drug? I had to read that with a smile -- ketamine is a dissociative drug, in the same class as PCP (angel dust). We used it to knock out animals. There's nothing "soft" about it! (PCP was also originally an animal tranquilizer.)
I think the distinction between hard and soft drugs is mainly in their addictiveness -- all of the opiates -- morphine, heroin, opium, etc. cause physical dependence and actual withdrawal symptoms. Cocaine causes less of them, but the crash after taking it causes intense psychological cravings. Marijuana, ecstasy, and other soft drugs do not have these side effects. People may use them habitually and look forward to them every day by choice, but they do not suffer any ill effects if they don't.
Just as the opiates have real medicinal value as painkillers, so too does marijuana. That's not a myth -- it has medical evidence to back it up.
Cigarettes do cause physical dependency, but not the behavioral changes that other drugs do. That's why we tolerate them as a society. But having dealt with many people in end-stage pulmonary disease wheezing out their last days, weak and in constant need of inhalers, nebulizers, breathing machines that they have to wear at night, oxygen tanks that they have to wear during the day, I have to say that it's fairly obvious that the long-term effects are not pretty at all. And these aren't even the ones who have lung cancer!
Deborah
Benjamin wrote:
Deborah wrote:
I hope that gives you some idea of what marijuana is like, Benjamin. But of course that's only how it felt to me.
Lol, you make it sound like a good idea! But thanks for the explanation!
It's interesting that you had that response, because I was trying to be very neutral about it.
I want to be clear that I'm not recommending that anyone (especially minors) try drugs; it's just that I don't think they should be criminalized, and I especially object to having marijuana equated with heroine.
Actually, I wouldn't recommend any drugs to anyone, and "drugs" includes alcohol, cigarettes and coffee. Yes, coffee. I finally finished a nightmare of a job at work -- it kept putting me to sleep, and I finally had to give in and have half a cup of coffee so I could finish it, because my mild tea just wasn't doing the trick. Wow, coffee is a real mood-altering drug, and it's the most addictive substance I've ever ingested.
These days, except for my reliance on tea and, on very rare occasions, coffee to keep me from getting fired at work, I just get high on the real thing: powerful gasoline, a clean windshield and a shoeshine!
Kirk
Deborah wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Deborah wrote:
I hope that gives you some idea of what marijuana is like, Benjamin. But of course that's only how it felt to me.
Lol, you make it sound like a good idea! But thanks for the explanation!
It's interesting that you had that response, because I was trying to be very neutral about it.
I want to be clear that I'm not recommending that anyone (especially minors) try drugs; it's just that I don't think they should be criminalized, and I especially object to having marijuana equated with heroine.
Actually, I wouldn't recommend any drugs to anyone, and "drugs" includes alcohol, cigarettes and coffee. Yes, coffee. I finally finished a nightmare of a job at work -- it kept putting me to sleep, and I finally had to give in and have half a cup of coffee so I could finish it, because my mild tea just wasn't doing the trick. Wow, coffee is a real mood-altering drug,
Except for those of us who seem to escape relatively unaltered from coffee ;). In fact, when I'm tired at work I instinctively go not for coffee (which I don't usually desire when I'm tired) but green tea, which has something like 2/5 the caffeine of coffee, I believe. But I think it's because the green tea we have in the office is relatively bitter--even more so than the coffee. I think the combination of the bitterness and the hotness helps stave off the tiredness for me.
Deborah wrote:
and it's the most addictive substance I've ever ingested.
Keeps the coffeehouses in business, alright ;)
Julian
Re: Drugs and you.
Harrenys Targaryen wrote:
To what extent have they affected your life?
I haven't tried the "light" ones, e.g. marijuana, ecstasy, heavy-tipped markers, etc.
I've tried them all, except heroin and PCP, simply because of fear of getting addicted to them. I don't think they've affected my life at all, except every so often I have brain farts that can only be attributed to the brain cells I've killed along the way to euphoria.
Loic
Deborah: Yes, I ought to have made a distinction between a user and a abuser. But if marijuana is illegal in a country, then a consummer is automatically an abuser already in my eyes.
On the other hand, if marijuana is decriminalised and treated as a social drug, recreational users would then lawfully exist. The most important thing is to not break the law.
Porthos: Actually, Singapore has very strict anti-smoking laws. It is also illegal to light up in enclosed areas and even night spots have been hit by a blanket ban since the beginning of this year. I am just part of a vocal minority who refuse to be like sheep led by its nose. I am also the sort who never puts on his seat belt specifically because the government tells me to.
Uriel
Oooh, don't gt me started on some of the motor vehicle accident victims I've seen....
Akoni
Cocaine, Heroine and other Hard-Drugs are physically addictive.
Marijuana, Weed, Hashish etc. are Psychologically addictive.
There's a major difference between physically and psychologically. Physically means your body needs the drug to get through the daily routine.
Psychologically means your brains "tell you" to smoke Weed or Marijuana, if you are mentally sound you should be able to "tell" your brains you don't want to smoke Weed or Marijuana.
Alcohol and Nicotine are both physically addictive as well, so they could be in the hard-drugs category.
PS. I only drink a beer or 3 a week.
Deborah
And where does chocolate fit in?
Fredrik
Porthos wrote:
Quote:
But I've tried stuff like Jack Daniel's and it's just revolting.
True! Ban it!
Unless you are a poor Frisian fisherman who really needs a wee dram to survive in the icy sea spray, there is no need for liquor!
Porthos
Boy Fred, you sure seem to have a love affair with the Frisians.
Uriel
Well, he met this tipsy Frisian housewife once....
Jack Daniel's isn't my cup of tea, either, but bring on the Bailey's.... mmmm! And Kahlua. Some amaretto sours. A B-52. Mudslides. Slippery Nipples. Tequila Sunrise. Margaritas! Pretty much anything icky-sweet, and I'll just love it!
Akoni
Deborah wrote:
And where does chocolate fit in?
hehe chocolate, well I don't really know! Probably psychologically addictive.
I'm addicted to it anyways
Fredrik
Porthos wrote:
Boy Fred, you sure seem to have a love affair with the Frisians.
Yes, ever since I warmed myself with a first cup of the Frisian cocktail "tote Tante" (= dead aunt), tea with rum, on the windy North Frisian island of Sylt (Frisian: Söl) I've been a Frisophile. But the love almost turned into hate when I was writing my bachelor thesis in Freiburg one year ago about (the considerable) Frisian maritime commerce in Northern Europe in the early Middle Ages and had to read a whole book in Frisian! The book was also available in a French edition, but I understood more of the Frisian one. And that tells more about my lack of command of French than my grasp of Frisian!
Walker
I tried hashish once a few years ago. We were about five people who shared one joint. At first I didn't feel anything and I was a bit disappointed, but later as I walked home I felt something and it felt pretty good. I felt light. Sometimes I can get this feeling that I've been missing out on something because I didn't try it again. Some of my friends have tried other drugs and I know a couple of people who still smoke a joint (or rather share one) occasionally.
But I don't think I will smoke hashish again, or try any other drugs for that matter. My reason for that is the same as Julian's, namely fear of getting addicted to them.
I used to smoke tobacco at parties but I rarely do that anymore. I'm still addicted to nicotine, though. I take snuff and I wish I could quit. And I mean addicted; there have been occasions when I haven't had any snuff for a while and it's absolutely dreadful. There was such an occasion a couple of weeks ago at work (in this case "a while" means that I'd only taken one piece of snuff that morning), when meek little me was this close to raising my voice at a lady who certainly didn't deserve to be yelled at.
Benjamin [inactive]
Recently, I've started to worry that I'm on the way to becoming an alcoholic, and some of my friends have pointed this out to me. Actually, my main concern is that once I'm 18 next month, I'll be able to acquire alcohol much more easily, and that when I move to Scotland far away from my parents in September, I may go off the rails. I'm thinking of how I was when I was in Poland earlier this month, when I kept wanting (and thus drinking) vodka, and got drunk on more than one occasion.
Essentially, whenever I'm sad or stressed, I usually want alcohol, which for me preferably takes the form of spirits, rather than wine or beer (partly because the desired effects are faster that way). I should admit that I have secretly drunk brandy at night on a number of occasions.
Having said all that, I'm fairly certain that I still consume less alcohol than most people my age in this country overall. So folks, do you think that I actually have anything to worry about, or is it just normal?
Fredrik
Hmm, I think that if you follow the rules of never drinking alone and staying away from spirits, you'll manage fine.
Benjamin [inactive]
Fredrik wrote:
Hmm, I think that if you follow the rules of never drinking alone and staying away from spirits, you'll manage fine.
I don't drink alone very often, so that should be okay.
But the thing is, I really like spirits. I don't want to drink beer, and once I'm in Scotland, spirits (especially whisky) will be the main obvious alternative. I couldn't realistically go into pubs in Scotland and drink red wine.
Walker
Benjamin wrote:
Recently, I've started to worry that I'm on the way to becoming an alcoholic, and some of my friends have pointed this out to me. Actually, my main concern is that once I'm 18 next month, I'll be able to acquire alcohol much more easily, and that when I move to Scotland far away from my parents in September, I may go off the rails. I'm thinking of how I was when I was in Poland earlier this month, when I kept wanting (and thus drinking) vodka, and got drunk on more than one occasion.
Yes, freedom can be dangerous. I know. When I moved from home to Uppsala to live on my own my beer consumption increased and reached heights that were probably not very sound.
Benjamin wrote:
Essentially, whenever I'm sad or stressed, I usually want alcohol, which for me preferably takes the form of spirits, rather than wine or beer (partly because the desired effects are faster that way). I should admit that I have secretly drunk brandy at night on a number of occasions.
It's the same for me except it's usually beer that I drink. It's an effective way to alter your state of mind, whether it be that you're sad, stressed, angry, frustrated or just bored out of your skull.
Benjamin wrote:
Having said all that, I'm fairly certain that I still consume less alcohol than most people my age in this country overall. So folks, do you think that I actually have anything to worry about, or is it just normal?
If you drink to repress your feelings then I think you should think twice before having that drink at night. It's easy to "just" have another drink and then another. Your need will grow and your consumption will increase - if you go on drinking to quell yourself, which really is what you're doing. It feels good to walk through the gates and wander in that land of relief but what you don't realize, or don't want to realize, is that that land is a land of quicksand. Or if you do realize it, well then you've got a good recipe for a depression, which leads to what?
I don't mean to scare you, though. Do drink and be merry - with your friends. But don't drink alone.
Walker
Then how about if you try to learn to like beer? In my experience, spirits often gets you too drunk. And it happens so fast. You lose control. So I usually stay away from spirits and stick to wine and beer.
Uriel
Usually it's just a phase, and by the time you reach the age where you can acquire it legally (21 in the US) it loses a lot of its appeal. I would watch the link between drinking and feeling depressed, though -- alcohol usually just intensifies whatever you are already feeling, after the initial happy buzz.
Deborah
Benjamin, have you tried not drinking for a set period, say, a week or a month? It seems to me that if you find it difficult to do, then you might have a problem. I've gone through periods when I drank frequently because of who I was keeping company with, but when my lifestyle changed, it was never even the least bit difficult to stop drinking.
And heed what Uriel said about drinking and depression.
My only "addictions" have been to sugar and chocolate. When I lived near an Italian pastry shop in NY, it got to the point where I actually had to cross the street when I approached the shop; otherwise I'd find myself drawn into it against my will! And recently I've been consuming far too much chocolate -- and I go for it when I'm depressed.
(I'd like to put in a plug here for my current favorite chocolate: "Endangered Species" brand, which buys fair trade cocoa and donates a percentage of the profits toward conservation. And it's delicious! I especially like the Grizzly Bear, which is dark chocolate and raspberries.)
Uriel
I've had the Panda, which I think was white chocolate and dark chocolate.
Joanne
Deborah wrote:
My only "addictions" have been to sugar and chocolate. When I lived near an Italian pastry shop in NY, it got to the point where I actually had to cross the street when I approached the shop; otherwise I'd find myself drawn into it against my will!
Was it Alba on 18th? If it was I can relate When my cousin first moved there (about a block away), I must have gained about 10 lbs. I made up all sorts of dumb excuses to visit her, especially during my time of the month! Damn it, now I want some cheesecake....
Deborah
Joanne wrote:
Was it Alba on 18th? If it was I can relate When my cousin first moved there (about a block away), I must have gained about 10 lbs. I made up all sorts of dumb excuses to visit her, especially during my time of the month! Damn it, now I want some cheesecake....
No, it was on Spring St. between Lafayette and Mulberry, south side of the street. It was a little one, and I don't think I ever even knew the name -- it was just "the Italian pastry shop down the street". My favorite Italian bakery was Veniero, at 11th & 2nd (1st?) Avenue. They had the best Italian cheesecake. I don't know whether this shop is even there anymore. Ferrara's is still around, though -- I saw a news segment about it last night. It's now in the hands of the 5th generation of the same family.
And yes, the Panda is the dark & white chocolate bar from Endangered Species. Right now I'm enjoying the Bat, which is "chocolat noir intense ave graines de cacao".
Joanne
Mmmm.... Veniero...
Uriel
I think it's Lindt that makes this absolutely divine white chocolate and coconut bar ... you can just feel the cocoa butter melting in your mouth and heading straight for your adipose tissue!
Joanne
Uriel wrote:
I think it's Lindt that makes this absolutely divine white chocolate and coconut bar ... you can just feel the cocoa butter melting in your mouth and heading straight for your adipose tissue!
Girl, anything that tastes that good and makes your t&a bigger and keeps you warm during the winter must be food from the gods...
Uriel
Ha! I never thought of it that way!
I was looking at pictures of the family with my mom one day and I just shook my head when I saw myself and said, "For most people, the camera adds ten pounds ... on me, it adds three bra sizes."
Now I know it was the Lindt....
Loic
Photos can be rather deceptive. Is it a trick of the light or what?
Like Benjamin, I sometimes have cravings for an alcoholic drink. But I do not really like spirits. Gin and tonic doesn't do anything for me as well. What I truly dig is white beer and Hoegaarden is a master when it comes to its production.
By the way, what is the whole fuss about Corona? I think it tastes like water.
Elaine
Re: Drugs and you.
Harrenys Targaryen wrote:
To what extent have they affected your life?
I can't believe I haven't answered this question yet. But anyway, I've done the occasional line or two of coke or crystal meth while out clubbing with friends, and I must confess that I might be tempted to have a little toot if someone just so happened to offer it to me on my way to the loo, but in no way would I describe myself as a drug abuser or addict b/c it's not a must have for me. I don't constantly crave it nor do I go out looking for a fix.
X is something I used to do back in my club-hopping days, but it really has no appeal to me whatsoever. Now that is a drug that can permanently screw up your mind.
Marijuana, nicotine, and alchohol are probably the only drugs that I use regularly or somewhat regularly, and I would say that nicotine is the one that's been more of an addiction and probable health hazard for me.
Joanne
loic wrote:
By the way, what is the whole fuss about Corona? I think it tastes like water.
" alt="" border="0" /> I'm not sure why people like Coronas, either. I have to cut up and squeeze like three or four limes to even discern its taste.
Coronas also get me bloated right quick...
Harrenys Targaryen wrote:
To what extent have they affected your life?
I'm boring. Never been addicted to any drugs except caffeine. However, when I was in school and taking courses like Biology for Non-Science Majors and Art History where a lot of memorization was involved, I used to have joints an hour or so before exams and quizzes. They helped me concentrate, ironically, and I did really well in those classes.
loic wrote:
Photos can be rather deceptive. Is it a trick of the light or what?
A happy trick of the light, in Uriel's case Sometimes I'm surprised when I see pictures of myself, too, because they can look different from what I see in the mirror every day. Must be a trick of the light, like you said.
Uriel
Happy, my ass! More like two, two much of a good thing!
Walker
I sometimes like to smoke when it's warm and sunny. A couple of weeks ago that smoke-in-the-sun urge came back and I bought some tobacco. But when I got home I couldn't find my pipe. I bought the missing pipe in 9th grade when my class went to Copenhagen and there was a period in High School when I occasionally smoked it. Until last week, when I bought a new pipe, I hadn't smoked one in years. So now when I come home from work I sometimes go out on my balcony and puff a little. Last summer I smoked vicious cigarettes after work.
Travis
I don't smoke, rarely drink (and I think beer and unmixed liquor taste like ass), but am very addicted to caffeine. As for caffeine, I unfortunately have way too much of a caffeine tolerance at the time, so normal quantities of it do little except maybe make me less sleepy, even though sometimes I am far too sensitive to caffeine due to being somewhat hypomanic to begin with...
Rio
Never stuck a ciggie in my mouth and I'd like to keep it that way. Likewise with dope. I know many a person who started on dope and ended up becoming smokers as well. Never tried hard drugs either. Just the occasional grog, and these days, I'm a cadbury. I don't mind beer and wine down south and rum in the tropics. Hate whisky though. Coffee - never drank coffee until a few years ago and then, it might be a cup a day but I haven't drank coffee in so long.
I've never really been into drugs or really liked the idea of taking them. I see them as a cheat and I've seen enough people get trapped by them. Besides, I know if I start, I probably won't stop.
Rio
Uriel wrote:
I think it's Lindt that makes this absolutely divine white chocolate and coconut bar ... you can just feel the cocoa butter melting in your mouth and heading straight for your adipose tissue!
I've never seen this here. I must try their chilli and cherry dark chocolate though. The plain balls are amazing in themselves.
Deborah
I used to drink a cup of coffee a day at work, and then I switched to tea in order to avoid the inevitable crash. But I haven't been drinking either since I was laid off last November. Until a few days ago, the only caffeine I'd had was whatever there is in chocolate. But in the airport on the way back to SF from Seattle, my brother bought a mocha something-or-other that he then decided he shouldn't drink because he has high blood pressure. So I volunteered to drink it, as I hate seeing stuff go to waste. It was a mistake, because I wasn't even sleepy before I drank it (I only used to drink it at work when I couldn't stay awake otherwise) and so I just got a very strong buzz. It felt awful. Never again!
These days I'll drink socially, but I'm pretty much a lightweight -- a couple drinks and I'm pretty silly. Hey, it makes me a cheap date! 
and about 3 times I have drunk a cocktail : I think that they are very pretty and nice.
But I did feel out of control, more so than with alcohol, which I disliked.
" alt="" border="0" /> I'm not sure why people like Coronas, either. I have to cut up and squeeze like three or four limes to even discern its taste.