| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Porthos |
Examples of Old French????????????Could somebody provide some examples of an "Old French" text from the Dark Ages or early Middle Ages? |
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| Elaine |
(in lingua romana - proto-french) Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro comun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in adjudha et in cadhuna cosa si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dift, in o quid il mi altresi fazet; et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karlo in damno sit. La Cantilène de Sainte Eulalie (ca. 878) Buona pulcella fut Eulalia. Bel avret corps, bellezour anima. Voldrent la veintre li Deo inimi, Voldrent la faire diaule servir. Elle no'nt eskoltet les mals conselliers Qu'elle De o raneiet, chi maent sus en ciel, Ne por or ned argent ne paramenz Por manatce regiel ne preiement. Niule cose non la pouret omque pleier La polle sempre non amast lo Deo menestier. E por o fut presentede Maximiien, Chi rex eret a cels dis soure pagiens. Il li enortet, dont lei nonque chielt, Qued elle fuiet lo nom chrest iien. Ell'ent adunet lo suon element: Melz sostendreiet les empedementz Qu'elle perdesse sa virginitét; Por os furet morte a grand honestét. Enz enl fou lo getterent com arde tost. Elle colpes non avret, por o nos coist. A czo nos voldret concreidre li rex pagiens. Ad une spede li roveret tolir lo chieef. La domnizelle celle kose non contredist: Volt lo seule lazsier, si ruovet Krist. In figure de colomb volat a ciel. Tuit oram que por nos degnet preier Qued auuisset de nos Christus mercit Post la mort et a lui nos laist venir Par souue clementia. |
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| Porthos |
Thanks a lot Elaine. Could you post some Castellano from that same period?
And as long as we're at it, let's post some Old Dutch, or would that be called Low Franconian? That's what the illiterate barbarian king Charlemagne spoke right? Elaine, Wouldn't you agree that Anglo-Saxon looks a lot like Dutch? |
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| Elaine |
You're welcome. Ay-yi-yi, maybe later.
Isn't the language he spoke called "Frankish"?
I don't know. I never gave it much thought. I'll have to take a look at some Anglo-Saxon texts. |
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| David |
Can someone post som examples of what would be Late Anglo-saxon? | ||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
An excellent choice of Early Old-French, I have to say. |
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| David |
Greg, as a native speaker, can you understand the second (878) example Elaine posted? |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Honestly, no - at least not everythnig. But as an Old-French lover, yes, almost everything. 
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| Porthos |
I wonder what Old French sounded like. I wonder if it sounded more like Latin, as Italian does, or if it already contained the nasal sounds, and the uvular 'r', and the silent vowels, etc. I don't know if these aspects of the language were a result of Germanic influence (some sources cite that, but I don't know) or if was due to some sort of Celtic phonological substratum. Modern French sounds far removed from Latin, although, in reality, its vocabulary is almost entirely of Latin orgin. Its phonology just took a drastically different evolutionary path. Portuguese more or less did the same thing, while Spanish remains closer to the original Latin phonology, although it added a few Iberian contributions like the 'j' sound, and the 'll' sound. Italian seems to be the most pure, if that makes sense. | ||||||
| Elaine |
Well, thank you! If I recall, a certain mysterious Frenchman posted it on the old langcafé site (or perhaps it was on antimoon). 
Now, back to the Oath(s) of Strasbourg... I find this fascinating. The French version of the wikipedia article says this:
Well, judging by modern-day French and modern-day Occitan translations, the Oaths seems to look to me more proto-Occitan (but in other ways proto-French!) so perhaps calling it 'proto-French' is a misnomer. What do you think?
Pro Dei amore et pro christiani populi et nostro communi saluationis, de iste die in ab ante, in quanto Deus sapientem et potestatem mihi dat, sic saluabo ecc'istum meum fratrem Carolum, et in adjuuamente et in *cata una causa, sic quomodo homo per directum suum fratrem saluare debet, in hoc quo illoe mihi alterum sic faciat, et ab Lotharo nullum placitum nunquam inibo quod meam uoluntatem ecc'isto meo fratri Carolo in damnum sit. in the original lingua romana: Pro Deo amur et pro christian poplo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di en avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in adiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dift in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai qui meon vol, cist meon fradre Karlo in damno sit. in modern French: Pour l'amour de Dieu et pour le peuple chrétien et notre salut commun, de ce jour en avant, autant que Dieu me donne savoir et pouvoir, je sauverai mon frère Charles que voici, et en aide et en toutes choses, comme de droit on doit sauver son frère, afin qu'il me fasse autant, et je ne prendrai jamais de la part de Lothaire aucune convention qui, de mon gré, puisse être au dam de mon frère Charles que voici. in modern Occitan: (Lo Jurament d'Estrasborg) Per l'amor de Dieu e pel pòble crestian e nòstre comun salvament, d'aquest jorn en davant, mentre que Dieu me dòne saber e poder, atal salvarai ieu aquest mon fraire Carles que vaquí, e en ajuda e caduna causa, atal com òm de dreit deu salvar son fraire, de biais qu'el me faga lo meteis. E del costat de Lotari jamai deguna convencion prenerai que, de ma volontat, d'aquest mieu fraire Carles siá damnosa. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
The outbreak of the vowel nasalisation process (which first started with [a] & [e]) is held to be dated early eleventh century.
first nasalisation : <enfant> [e~nfãnt] (nasal consonants maintained while nasal vowels pop up) today : <enfant> [ÃfÃ] (nasal consonants disappeared and nasal vowels changed) What is known today as uvular <r> is thought to have been uncommon (perhaps non-existent) prior to the seventeeth century (a time when Old French had ceased to exist for centuries). If you take Fr <chose> [Soz], its Protofrench equivalent was <causa> [t_Soz@] (late sixth century) while the (very)Late-Latin one was <causa> [t_Sao_^za] (late fifth century) — or so say Romanists. So, according to this view, the final <a> from La <causa> [kaU_^sa] only "weakened" (was more closed) : it did not disappear. The loss of the final vowel [@] is considered to have taken place during the Middle-French era (roughly from the fourteenth century on). Note, though, that Modern French is not necessarily [Soz] : it may be [Soz@] as was the (reconstructed) standard that is thought to have prevailed until the late thirteenth century.
The case is thorny really. There's a *HUGE* literature about the nature of the Romance language(s ?) in the Oaths and the status of the text "written" (transcoded ? transliterated ?) in that (those ?) language(s ?). Part of the "solution" would be to find out who wrote the Romance text and what his/their intentions were. |
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| fab |
" I wonder if it sounded more like Latin, as Italian does, or if it already contained the nasal sounds, and the uvular 'r', and the silent vowels, etc. "
Concerning the "uvular r", it certainly didn't exist since it is a very new characteristic compared to the history of the language. 50 years ago most people in countryside didn't used it, and some few very ederly people still don't today. My opinion is that it should sounded quite similar to latin (although it is difficult to knwo how latin was sounding, it depends where and when I think), and it progressively evoluated its own way during history as any other romance language. I don't know how you can be so sure that Italian (Tuscan to be more precise) pronounciation didn't evoluated in its history. [img]Well, judging by modern-day French and modern-day Occitan translations, the Oaths seems to look to me more proto-Occitan [/img] Maybe it is both. I tend to think that at that time the differences beetween proto-french and proto-occitan didn't exist yet, the differenciation may have occurred progressively later. But I'm not a specialist of the question. |
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| Porthos |
Fab,
I'm not so sure if I buy that about the uvular 'r'. Maybe in southern France, this is a very recent phenomenon, but certainly not in northern France. It probably originated in northern France, or at Paris, where there was a lot of Frankish influence, and only spread to the rest of France recently, due to national standardization based on the Parisian model. As for the Oath, I would assume that it is Langue d'oil, as Strasbourg is a northern city. I believe the Emperor Julian actually engaged the Allemani in battle at Strasbourg. Another important battle was fought at Cologne. |
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| fab |
Fab,
" I'm not so sure if I buy that about the uvular 'r'. Maybe in southern France, this is a very recent phenomenon, but certainly not in northern France. It probably originated in northern France, or at Paris, where there was a lot of Frankish influence, and only spread to the rest of France recently, due to national standardization based on the Parisian model." NO, that's completly wrong. It may almost be the inverse, if you listen Pagnol's films of the 20's/30's (southern french movies, with the accent that I posted a few times ago), you will notice that's they prnounce the "uvular r", while when you listen old parisian songs of the same period the "r" were rolled. I posted this exemple of a Parisian singer of the 1920's : http://www.chanson.udenap.org/enr.../frehel_comme_un_moineau_1931.mp3 http://www.chanson.udenap.org/enr...nts/frehel_java_bleur_la_1938.mp3 It is funny because my grand grand mother was speaking like that... " As for the Oath, I would assume that it is Langue d'oil, as Strasbourg is a northern city. " Not sure at all, because Strabourg has never been in langue d'oil area, but in Alemanic dialect speaking area (It still be the Germanic language of Alsaican ther today spoken by a lot of peoples (don't forgert that Strasbourg is integrated permanetly to France since 1945 only! The Text was probably a traduction of the germanic one which was destined for the romance speaking peoples of the country - there was no real reason that the northern variant would be shoosen, if a north/south distinction already existed, which I don't know. |
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| Porthos |
Wow, that is amazing. I can't believe that the 'r' could change so radically in one generation! And the question is how, and why did that just happen all of a sudden? It's a very strange phenomenon. Maybe a popular celebrity spoke with an uvular 'r', and all the youth just adopted it as an imitation. I don't know how else to explain it. And it is interesting that French spoken with a rolled 'r' makes it sound a lot more like Italian. If French still had a rolled 'r', it would be very easy to pronounce, at least for me. But, the uvular 'r' in French just gives it a little spice of "sexiness" I think. It's what makes it unique.
Fab and Greg, Do you think French kids would make fun of me if I spoke with a rolled 'r'? I could speak much faster with a rolled 'r'. |
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| Pauline |
In belgium for sure kids would not make fun of you for how you speak french, but if you roll r, then maybe they will think you're a flemich, so it's better you tell that you're american/mexiacn. Fab and greg can tell you about french kids, because maybe it's different there. |
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| Porthos |
It's just that sometimes I mess up when pronouncing the 'r' in French, so I don't feel as comfortable. But I was not aware that Flemings rolled their 'r's. Why would they do that, when Dutch has an uvular 'r'?
Besides, I don't think I could be mistaken for a Fleming, unless someone was very dumb. lol |
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| Pauline |
In flemish and some regiosn of the Ntherlands the r is rolled, but in a different way rolled- the flemish sound gentler.
I think, that the most of dutch pronounce the uvular r, but rolled is equally correct. I know about they have this rolled r, but if you want to know in which regions,then you must ask one of the dutch. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
It's also important to remember that most English variants had a rolled R until a few hundred years ago. Some still do — most notably in Scotland. Also, the rolled R can be found natively in some dialects in Central England, Southwest New Zealand and South Africa. | ||||||
| fab |
Once again, Josh is prisioner of his ready-made preconcienved ideas about everything. Such as "I'm sure the 'true' romance languages roll their "r", other don't"...
or, "rolled r" is necesserally from southern Europe" and "uvular is germanic"... It's incredible to have a so closed-minded self confidence. |
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| Porthos |
<<Once again, Josh is prisioner of his ready-made preconcienved ideas about everything. Such as "I'm sure the 'true' romance languages roll their "r", other don't"...
or, "rolled r" is necesserally from southern Europe" and "uvular is germanic"...>> It's incredible to have a so closed-minded self confidence. Did I say anything about that????????????? And I am anything but close-minded. I've admitted when I'm wrong numerous times on this board alone. Maybe you thought I was being sarcastic in my last post on this thread. If that's the case, then you are the one with the misconception. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
It's a very classical phenomenon. If you heard actors in a black-and-white movie from the 30s saying : « La pâte du gâteau» you'd probably hear something like [lapA:tdugA:to] while today's actors would say something approaching [lapatdugato]. Have you ever hear of the great vowel shift in English ? |
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| Porthos |
I just didn't realize that languages could change so rapidly, especially in modern times, with modern communications and less isolation of populations.
But know, I've never heard of the great English vowel shift. I might have, but I don't remember at the present moment. |
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| fab |
Josh,
Excuse me for having seem rude, but I have been a bit upset due to the other thread. I think we may misunderstand each other maybe due to cultural differences in the way we have to say the things. I had misunderstood your words for a sort of "bashing" while it was not. I think what benjamin said is true : Maybe in, Europe we tend to precise everything when we are not sure of something, we say "I think", "in my opinion", "it may be", etc. if we are not absolutly sure. It seems that in our culture if we just say "IT IS..." is means that it is an absolute fact and not just a personal subjective opinion. So if someone say "French music is riduculous", we take it very bad because we found ourselves insulted. In our culture we feel the need to react if we feel insulted. It seems that it is not the case in American culture, so I misunderstood you and I reacted rudely. I'm sorry. |
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| Porthos |
Well in that case Fab, your apology is accepted. We think very differently, the French and us.
As long as we're talking about this, could you possibly explain why the French have this taboo about talking about money? But you seem to have a problem with "my preconcieved opinions that i try to pass off as fact", because you use words like "yet again". |
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| fab |
Why we have problems to talk about money ?
I think this is a cultural thing, it is considered a very personal thing, and other people don't have to know how much you earn without looking very impolite. The only ones you could ask the question are people you know very well. Even then it is unusual to ask the question (actually I don't knwow how much my father or girlfriend earn as money) Asking someone how much he makes money seems to be a very intimate thing, and the person who asked the question will seem as rude and money-obsessed. Asking how much anyone earns in France would be like asking to a girl who don't know things about a sexual life. As for the "r" pronounciation, nobody will make fun of it because you are not a native speaker. Most hispanophones who speak french pronounced rolled "r", it is not a problem. But maybe you had better to precise that you are Spanish-speaking, because most people would expect that, as an american, you will pronounce "r" at the American way. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
It's like that in England as well. I don't really know how much my parents earn either (although I could make an educated guess). Personally, I would find it very strange to talk to someone about money. Here, it's kind of like this: accumulating wealth is fine, but lavish spending and generally trying to show it off or tell people about it is not. And, as I've mentioned before, change in financial situation alone does not change one's social class here. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Puisque nous parlons d'argent, pouvez-vous trouver des mots de l'ancien français s'y réferant ?
PS : les emprunts du moyen-anglais à l'ancien français sont acceptés 
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| fab |
On the subject of the "rolled r", it is still used by some people in Quebec:
Here the famous astro-physician Hubert Reeves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-WFweMSWXI |
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| Porthos |
Fab,
How do you like the accent in Quebec? Honestly, I find it to be much more harsh than the standard French which I hear from France. Could this possibly have something to do with English influence? It still sounds nice, and the accent in English still sounds lovely. But, I've read that many of the settlers in Quebec were actually from Normandy, so that they speak with a Norman accent. |
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| Porthos |
He seems to use both the rolled 'r' and the uvular 'r', and sometimes, it sounds like it is in between. And when I hear speakers from Quebec, they sound almost as if they have an English inflected accent in French. Do you notice that too?
And, have you encountered very many American French speakers before? The ones I know, are usually teenage girls who have studied French in school for some time. I have never studied French, and I haven't really studied it on my own either. Yet, my pronounciation is many times better than theirs, and they have recieved formal instruction for 3-4 years! I think it's just a matter of effort. I am a perfectionist when it comes to pronounciation, so I will practice until I get it almost perfect. A couple of months ago, I started practicing the French 'r', and I would walk around, just trying to say words with 'r's in them. I would say, I have it down pretty well now, but sometimes, the sound doesn't come out right, and it ends up with an English 'r' sound. That's why I would feel comfortable using a Spanish 'r', because I wouldn't go in and out of a proper accent. But I love using the proper French 'r', because I find it to be very attractive, and sort of unique for a Latin language. I thought it was due to some Celtic influence, but you and Greg crushed that romantic notion for me in the last week. 
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| fab |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Oui, c'est vrai. J'ai remarqué que la prononciation charentaise du <i> ressemblait singulièrement à celle du Québec. |
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| Fredrik |
Porthos wrote:
One theory is that the infant Louis XV or XVI, like many children had a speech impediment that rendered him unable to roll his r's. And his servile court made it into a fashion to please him. Probably just an urban legend, but who knows...
In Norway it is not very comme il faut to talk about your or other's income either, at least not outside the familiar circle, but we have a solution to satisfy our curiosity: Our Inland Revenue Service actually publishes on the Internet how much every taxpaying Norwegian has earned and how much he or she has been taxed. (The idea is of course that everybody can make sure that everybody is taxed correctly.) So you can check the earnings of everybody you know. Pluss their fortune! The French would have died of shame....
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| fab |
I would find this very shocking. as if my private life was published in the newspapers |
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| Fredrik |
Hehe, usually the lists ARE published in the newspapers too!
And a lot of (rich) people feel that it is an invasion of their privacy, so there is constant debate about wether it should be banned or not. |
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| Irrintzi |
and what is the name of the english "r"? it isn't rolled and uvular... | ||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
I think you mean the alveolar approximant. However, this is not how all dialects of English pronounce R; Scottish English usually uses a rolled R, for example. |
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| Porthos |
But you must understand that there is a big difference between a Gaelic "rolled r" and a rolled 'r' in Spanish and Italian. And I've heard our 'r' be called a "lateral" 'r' before. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Yes. However, the R sound in Scottish English should not be described as 'Gaelic', but I think you probably knew that anyway. |
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| Irrintzi |
Ok, thank!
But i heard that english is the only language who has this "r" prononciation... it's true? |
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| Deborah |
There's a similar sound in Mandarin. To me, it sounds just the same, but I don't know whether it's considered such by people who really know both languages. |
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| Porthos |
Yeah, I know in Chinese the 'r' is very similar but I'm not sure if it's Mandarin or Cantonese or what have you. Mandarin will be very useful for business execs of the future. |
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| Loic |
I've never thought about the similarities between the Mandarin 'r' and the English one before. Despite having a romanised script for Chinese, I never really use it and learning each character was done by ear.
But now that I've given some thought to it, I'd say that you (Deb and Porthos) are probably right. Come to think of it, I can't recall any Cantonese word which begins with a 'r' for now. Hmm...allow me to slowly exhume the cobwebs of my dusty Cantonese from the inner recess of my memory. |
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