| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Pauline |
FlagsThis thread is inspired by the one about Great Britain where there are many pretty flags.Questions What flags have your countries ? What flag is your regional one ? Also, what flag is your favourite and what find you the most ugliest or stupidest one ? Here's the national flag of Belgium : 
Belgium has 4 regions : brussels capitale, flanders, wallonie, east-cantons. Here are this flags : Brussels : 
Flanders : 
Wallonie : (my regional flag) 
East Cantons 
The headquarters of the European Union, NATO are in Brussels : The European Union : 
NATO : 
My favourite flag is of Kiribati : 
and Dominica : 
Libya has a very stupid flag : 
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| Deborah |
Pauline, I also like the flags with birds on them, especially that of Dominica. Here's the coat of arms of that country:
Well, it's understated, perhaps! It would look good with a couple of parrots on it. |
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| Irrintzi |
Basque country flag, the Ikurrina:
The The green Saint Andrew's Cross or Saltire represent the Gernika oak (symbol of the foral laws of Biscaye) The white cross, represent the catoliscism The red fond, represent the blood of the basques, and also it was able to be taken in the flag of the kingdom of Navarre. His conception in been able to be inspired by the flag of the United Kingdom. 
Chains and the jewel represents the victory against the Moors to Navas de Tolosa, their treasure arrested by the navarreses troops. Other symbol, the basque cross or lauburu: 
It's a pre-indoeuropean symbol (as celtic triskell  or Svastika)
lots ancient basque tombs have this symbol Zazpiak bat, Seven basque provinces (Basque French and Spanish) 
In the odre, from left to right, from top to bottom: Navarra (Nafarroa), Basse-Navarre (Nafarroa Beherea)[the same arm, with the chains], Guipuzcoa (Guipuzkoa), Bizkaya (bizkaia), Alava (Araba), Labourd (lapurdi), Soule (Züberoa) Flag of Occitania: 
the occitan cross, derivated for the duchy of Toulouse, the 12 spheres ar probably derivated from the wisigoth and roman influence, the 12 zodiac houses, the cross may be appear in the crusades, when the frank crusaders went to Constantinople[/quote] Flag of Corsica: 
The decapited moorish head, can be very ancient, when the sarrasins attacked Corsica with razzias, the victory of corsican people against moorish troop was symbolized with the decapited head of the general of moorish troops. |
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| Julian |
Re: Flags
National flag: 
State flag: 
County flag: 
City flag: 
My least favorite international flag would probably have to be the flag of the British Indian Ocean Territory: 
There's just too much going on here, and if I should ever see it waving in the wind, I think I'd get seasick. 
Statewise, I'm not wild about Mississippi's and Maryland's for the same reason above: 
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| Deborah |
Maryland's flag reminds me of some of the busier medieval heraldry. | ||||||||||
| Fredrik |
Yeah, Maryland's flag is great! Too many US state flags are just an empty blue towel with a tiny seal on them.
Irrintzi wrote:
Oh, interesting! That pre-Inoeuropean thing is what freaks me out /fascinates me about Basque stuff. That there might be some direct link thousand of years back, possibly to the Stone Age, as some claim. It only freaks me out subjectively, from an non-Basque perspective, as I objectively know that the thought of my own distant ancestors not being the first to inhabit my home spot scares me. So naturally I would have wanted the same if I were Basque. 
The Brussels flag is ugly (what is it supposed to represent?) and the EU flag boring, but I love the Belgian flag. Just as Dutch subjectively is like a non-intimidating German, the Belgian flag is like a nicer version of the German flag |
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| Uriel |
"...empty blue towel..." -- You're too funny, Fredrik! 
I really like the Wallonie chicken! This is the state flag of New Mexico. I think we're the only flag to go yellow! 
That's the native tribal sun symbol (the zia), in the colors of Spain. This is our state seal, which combines the American and Mexican eagles; 1912 is the year we became a state and joined the union (we were previously a territory): 
Maryland's flag incorporates the family crest of Lord Baltimore, its colonial founder, but I think Hawaii is the only state to incorporate another whole country's flag into its own: 
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| Loic |
Singapore Flag 
Flag of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Probably the flag some of my forebears paid tribute to before quitting China. 
Malaysia's flag. As Uriel once pointed out, the Malaysian government ought to owe Washington royalties for alleged duplication of Old Glory. The thirteen stripes represent the 12 states of the country as well as federal territory (read: Kuala Lumpurn and Putrayaja). The thirteenth stripe used to represent Singapore before we were expelled most unceremoniously from the nascent state in 1965. 
Indonesia's flag. The inverse of the Polish flag and the exact replica of the flag of Monaco. An urban legend has it that the early Indonesian nationalists decided to create a new flag to represent their aspirations in what was then the Dutch East Indies. Seizing the Dutch flag, they simply tore off the lower blue strip to form their national flag. 
What do you think? I reject the explanation as a bit too simplistic, but their primary nationalist leader of that time, Soekarno, had plenty of bizarre ideas and this must be one of them. Incidentally, Soekarno was also a very good Dutch speaker and it was said that Dutch ranked above Malay when it came to his language skills. Of course, Javanese was his mother tongue. 
Thailand's flag 
The loveliest flag in the world - the Holy See. |
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| Loic |
The Union Jack canton seems to be a recurring feature of many flags, both at the national and state level. I remember seeing the Union Jack in quite a few of Canada's state flags as well.
In the hypothetical event that the United Kingdom break up and the Union Jack is no more, it'd still survive in far-flung corners of the world. |
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| Loic |
A most revolting flag, in my opinion. Flag of the People's Republic of China. Has anyone noticed that any country which goes out of its way to qualify itself with a 'People's Republic of something' is invariably a politically repressed and hard-up state? |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Our new flag (not so new anymore, actually)
And the old one. 
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| Uriel |
Has anyone noticed that any country which goes out of its way to qualify itself with a 'People's Republic of something' is invariably a politically repressed and hard-up state?
I had noticed that as well. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Also when they call themselves the Democratic Republic of something... they're usually not... |
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| Kornelia |
Bueno,
Polish flag 
and my regional flag of Silesia 
my favorite flag is Portugal 
:) |
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| Elaine |
The flags of Central America don't stray too far from the same color palette.
Guatemala 
El Salvador 
Honduras 
Nicaragua 
Costa Rica 
Panama 
Belize The first 4 are modeled after the short-lived Central American Federation's flag: 
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| Uriel |
I keep a Portuguese flag in my closet, but I can only bring it out at Christmas.....
I bet it would look great in my new office -- but then I would have to deal with people coming in all day and asking me what flag that is.... I think that would get on my nerves after the fifth repetition. 
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| KSa |
No, this is not the Polish flag, this is the Polish sea ship's flag. This is the Polish flag: 
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| Pauline |
sorry that I've noticed and reply now, some months after your comments!!!
Hi deborah,
Yes!!! It would look very nice, we must tell the libyans
Hi Ureil
He's nice and you can often see him, for example on the motorway every time you arrive at Wallonie (from Flanders) Hi frederik
It's absolutly ugly!!! I don't know what it is supposed to represent, it seems a stupid and completely ugly plant like a flower or vegetable. Hi KsA and Korneila
The flag you put (KsA) is the one I recognise as the polish one, but the one what Kornelia put is prettier!! Hi Elaine Those flags are all very nice!! I like the colours and the little pictures, my favourite ones of this selection are: Costa rica and Guatemala. From which country are you? |
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| Elaine |
From this one: 
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| Uriel |
Her location is the full historical name of the place you would know as Los Angeles.
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Haha — the only flag I own is the Belgian one. It's quite large though, so I have it folded up most of the time. |
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| Pauline |
Elaine,
I thought that you are from Central America because you posted those flags, and because (how Uriel noticed) your town has a vyer spanish name!!
Benjamin, LOL!!! You're an honorary belgian like the actor of Poirot (they awarded it him on the flemish TV)
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| Yelina |
I also have just one flag in my room. That's not a big one, so I hung it on my door. This is the Breton flag and it looks like that
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| Wanderin |
I dont have any flags, and I don't want to, what for?
As for flags, probably the strangest is one of Nepal: 
Cook Islands is a bit funny for me, such a hybrid of EU and UK: 
Antarctica's flag is strnagely orange 
But my favourite flag is of Byzantine Empire, simple, proud and powerful! 
Russian Emripe coat of arms: 
And Montenegro flag
And Russian coat of arms
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| Kornelia |
It's polish flag with polish emblem  i naprawde nie widzę powodu aby przyczepiać sie do spraw tak drobnych jak to czy godło jest na fladze czy tez go nie ma, bo wersje flagi są bardzo różne zależnie od zastosowania. Do takiej bzdury to tylko Polak się może przyczepić....
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| KSa |
Nie jest to "przyczepianie się", lecz zwykłe stwierdzenie faktu. I nie ma sensu upieranie się przy swoim, gdyż nie jest to polska flaga (ani tym bardziej "polska flaga z polskim godłem"), tylko polska bandera. I nie mów, drogie dziecko, że to są bzdury, bo niechcący (a może świadomie?) obrażasz uczucia tych, dla których są to sprawy naprawdę ważne. |
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| Daniel |
Here is the official national flag of Scotland:
The civil and state flag of Scotland features a white saltire, a crux decussate (X-shaped cross) representing the cross of the Christian martyr Saint Andrew, the patron saint of Scotland, on a blue field. It is named the Saltire or the Saint Andrew's Cross. The flag of Scotland is one of the oldest flags in the world, traditionally dating back to the 9th century, and is the oldest national flag still in modern use. The other alternative national flag is the Lion Rampant, seen below: 
It's also known as the Royal Standard of the King of Scots. It's the flag used historically by the King of Scots. This flag is used as a second unofficial national flag for Scotland (particularly at sporting events), and despite such use being illegal under the Act, the Lyon Court has rarely prosecuted offenders for flying the Standard unofficially. And this is the national flag of the Philippines: 
The white triangle is the emblem of the Katipunan. The three stars represent the three geographical island groups of the country: Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao to convey the unity of separate peoples and cultures into one Nation. The eight rays of the sun represent the first eight provinces: Manila, Cavite, Bulacan, Pampanga, Nueva Ecija, Tarlac, Laguna and Batangas, which revolted the Spanish rule. The blue colour represents peace, truth and justice and the red colour represents patriotism and valour. However, the original Declaration of Independence stated that the three colours were inspired by the American flag as a manifestation of the Filipinos' gratitude towards American help against the Spanish. The Philippine flat was banned, or proscribed, by United States authorities for 11 years until October 30, 1919. |
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| Uriel |
Interesting stuff, Daniel!
Ya gotta dig the flag of Bhutan -- I do. 'Cause it's the only flag with a dragon on it! 
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| Pauline |
And me, the dragon of Wales? Here's my picture. You better don't forget me again, or I will be very angry!!!! Yours sincerely Dragon (Welsh one) 
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| Daniel |
Three of the regional flags of Scotland (particularly the northern regions) are strikingly similar to those of Scandinavia:
The flag above is the regional flag of the Highland region (where my home is). It's the same as the Scottish flag, with the blue field and white cross, except that the cross is Scandinavian and not St. Andrew's. And the green colour represents the Gaelic heritage of the region. 
The flag above is from the Shetland. It's the same as the Highlands' flag but without the green colour. It was created by Roy Grönneberg and Bill Adams in 1969. It was unofficially created to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the transfer of the islands from Norway to Scotland. This explains the Scandinavian/Nordic cross. The flag is practically identical to the former unofficial national flag of Iceland (the Hvítbláinn) in use by Icelandic nationalist activists from the 1890s until around the First World War, and still used by certain associations in Iceland. The official flag of Iceland is the same as the Shetland's except that the shade of blue is darker and has a red Nordic cross on the white one. And this one below is the regional flag of the Orkney. 
The colours of the Orkney flag are from the Scottish and Norwegian Royal coats of arms, which both use yellow and red, with a lion rampant. The flag symbolises the islands' Scottish and Norwegian heritage. The blue is taken from the flag of Scotland and also represents the sea and the maritime heritage of the islands. The flags of the Shetland and the Highlands, as far as I know, are unofficial so they are rarely flown. The flag of the Orkney, however, is official. |
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| Uriel |
Yeah, but Bhutan is a whole country. Wales is .... well, god knows what Wales is; those Brits are so confusing when it comes to that! It's a frickin' suburb of England as far as I'm concerned; I don't care what it was in 1100 AD. | ||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
Wales is one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom, along with England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. However, you do raise a valid point. I have often been aware that, outwith Britain and Ireland, much of the rest of the world perceive Scotland and Wales as essentially regions of England — although regions which have maintained a somewhat separate identity, perhaps a bit like Bavaria within Germany, or Britanny within France. This will probably become even more apparent to me after September, when I start telling people that I'm from (or at least live in) Scotland. For example, when I was with one of my French friends about two years ago, he was doing some homework which involved finding the GDP of various countries, including the United Kingdom. By the side of the value for the UK, he wrote 'Angleterre'. I then explained to him (in French) that that figure did not refer only to England, but rather to the whole of the UK, and that he should actually write 'Royaume-Uni' instead. He rejected this, insisting that in French, the whole of the UK is simply 'Angleterre'/'England'. Likewise, when I was doing an intensive language course in Germany last year, we were looking at names of countries, and the names/adjectives for the people associated with them. The teacher said (in German) that someone from 'Großbrittanien' was an 'Engländer'. I pointed out that I didn't think that that was really right, and asked if someone could be described as 'Brittanienischer' or even 'Großbrittanienischer' — British. She said no, and said that if you're from Scotland, you'd say: 'ich bin Engländer aus Schottland'. And this is France and Germany, where one would hope that people would have a better knowledge/understanding of this than in much of the rest of the world, since it's not very far away. To be fair, though, England and Wales have been assimilated together in the past, however Scotland never has — the 1707 Act of Union has always been somewhat 'contractual', and 'otherness' has always been maintained. And I must admit, whilst Scotland to me is clearly a country in its own right (Edinburgh certainly feels like a capital city, for example), Wales is perhaps ever so slightly more tenuous. And then there's Cornwall, which today is administered as part of England, but this hasn't always been the case in the past, and many Cornish people do not consider themselves English. And then there are places like the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are not technically part of the UK, but people tend to think they are because they're not quite independent either and because they're near. And for the record, Northern Ireland is essentially part of Ireland, as far as I'm concerned. |
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| Pauline |
Uriel!!!! Now the dragon is furious!!! 
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| Uriel |
I think it's more that those distinctions are far more important in the British Isles than they are elsewhere, and since the UK is a single political entity, asserting that Wales, Scotland, and the Isle of Man, et al, are separate nations becomes sort of an eccentric semantic fiction to the rest of us. I mean, we accept that that's your little eccentricity, that you insist on this internal separation, but it isn't very meaningful to us. Seriously, what other major European country wasn't cobbled together from an assortment of once-independent kingdoms and duchies and smaller states? They all were. The UK isn't any different in that respect. Hell, even the US and Australia can rightfully claim to be conglomerations of smaller colonial entities that were once separate and distinct, and required various ratifications and treaties to bind them together. But we all picked ONE name and stuck to it .... 
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| Deborah |
As often happens, I don't feel myself to be part of Uriel's "us" (whoever they are). I've always thought of Wales as being a separate country. |
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| Uriel |
I know, it's practically heresy.
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| Porthos |
LOL! Lauch aus laut!
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| Porthos |
You can find a similar situation here. A lot of people, especially those less informed persons, will often refer to the entire island of Britain as "England", not realizing that the country of "England" is only part of the island. To me, it would be like calling all of North America, the "United States", and just ignoring the existance of Canada and Mexico simply because they have much smaller populations. You will also hear a lot of people say that "Wales is a place in England". It seems ignorant people hardly ever use the word "Britain", and there are many ignorant people who wouldn't know that England is in Britain. You will hear a lot people speak of the three major allies of WWII as Russia, England, and America. That would be to ignore the contributions made by the people of Wales, and Scotland, and Ulster as well. Or, rather than speaking of the British, many people will refer to the collective people of Britain as "the English", or the armies of Britain as the "the English army", or "English navy", etc. It drives me mad. Just because the vast majority of Britons are English, does not mean that we can ignore the existance of the other countries which make up the UNITED Kingdom. If people were aware of the centuries of bitter wafare and hatred between the Welsh and the English, or the Scots and the English, or the Irish and the English, etc., they would know why Scots take offense to being labled "English". In Uriel's case, she sees Wales as being more like a state within England, the way California is a state within the U.S., rather than what it actually is, a seperate country. |
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| Lazar |
Just a little quibble: Ulster isn't synonymous with Northern Ireland. Ulster is a traditional province of Ireland which is divided between Northern Ireland (6 counties) and the Republic (3 counties). County Donegal, for example, is part of Ulster but not part of Northern Ireland.
Anyway, as someone of mixed Celtic ancestry, I'm aware of the differences between the nations of Britain, but the huge similarities (like the dominance of the English language throughout most of Wales and all of mainland Scotland) can't be overlooked either. It makes sense that someone from another part of the world might not be aware of distinctive Welsh and Scottish national identities. It doesn't help that Britain was governed for centuries as a unitary state - in no way a confederacy - only recently adopting any semblance of federalism. I think that if the Welsh and the Scots want people to take notice of their national identities, they should vote for independence. |
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| Uriel |
No, not really -- I don't see Wales as a "state" within England, anymore than I see New Jersey as being part of Pennsylvania. I just don't get calling them separate countries. They're part of one political entity that fuctions as a single country, no matter what its internal arrangements might be. And I never agreed to call the whole place England -- I'm happy to say UK or Britain and consider England a part of the whole, and Scotland, etc. other parts. To me, they are no different than the situations of Quebec or Bavaria or Galicia -- those are still part of Canada, Germany, and Spain. (Hell, Germany WAS officially two separate countries when I was born -- but now it's just the one!) | ||||||||||
| Loic |
To me, I'd consider Wales to be a separate cultural entity. A nation, perhaps. Definitely a home country. But not a country per se.
For consistency and simplicity, I'd see a country as one which fulfills all the criteria of obtaining a seat in the United Nations. Bhutan does; Wales doesn't. I'm sorry. Speaking of flags with dragons, imperial China also had a dragon emblazoned on its flag. 
To me, I really associate Oriental dragons with Taoist temples. It is hard for me to imagine this flag having been once the rallying point for the entire Chinese nation. Today, you can still see variations of this flag fluttering on the flagposts of any Chinese temple. |
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| Porthos |
And wasn't the Chinese Imperial throne said to be the "Dragon Throne"? | ||||||||||
| Porthos |
In your case, you know the differences and choose to disregard them, but I'd say a good 3 out of 4 people I come across think that "England" is synonymous with "Britain". When they say "England took part in the invasion of Iraq", they are in effect saying what would be exactly like saying "Montana invaded Iraq". "The English invaded Iraq" ---> "Californians invaded Iraq". It sounds ridiculous in those terms, but that is actually what people are saying, without being conscious of it. |
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| Loic |
Porthos:
It's possible. But I have never heard of it being rendered as the 'Dragon Throne' in Chinese. What is certain, though, is that an idiomatic way to call the Chinese people is to dub them 'the descendents of the dragon' (long2 de4 chuan2 ren2). I suppose the early Chinese did genuinely believed in a dragon ancestry until a certain biologist called Darwin came along. But at least our prehistoric beliefs in being of dragon extraction were not as preposterous as that of the Japanese - they believed they were descended from a line of Goddess! As General Yamashita scoffed derisively when he made the acquintance of GOC Lieutenant-General AE Percival at the Fall of Singapore, 'the Japanese are the descendents of a goddess while the Westerners descend from monkeys as Charles Darwin proved. In a war between gods and monkeys, there can only be one winner'. |
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| Daniel |
Yes. That's what I was going to say to Porthos, but I'm really curious as to why Porthos said "Ulster" instead of the more standard "Northern Ireland"? The term "Ulster" when being referred to Northern Ireland is very political... I have Irish heritage and I was born in Northern Ireland and even now I've always called Northern Ireland "Northern Ireland" and never "Ulster".
That would work. But what if we want to be noticed as "Scottish" or "Welsh" or "Northern Irish" and not "English" now? All the time, when I'm abroad, people assume I'm from England, just because I speak English. People need to realise that if someone is from Britain it doesn't always mean he's English and it's annoying when they assume that all the time. I was once asked by an air steward on a Philadelphia-bound flight "Whereabouts in England do you live?" Erm, hello?! |
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| Porthos |
Because in a historical context, we as Americans often refer to N. Ireland as "Ulster", and use the term "Ulster Scot" interchangeably with "Scots-Irish". It's sometimes used as a shorthand. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Interesting. I presume that you don't have a specifically Unionist agenda with regards to Northern Ireland though, do you? Because that's how calling the place 'Ulster' tends to be interpreted here, whereas 'Northern Ireland' is far more neutral. |
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| Porthos |
No, I'm an indifferent, passive by-standard in regard to that whole mess. I just think of it in historical terms sometimes, as tends to happen when people observe something from a distance, from an external point of view. I wasn't aware of the fact that one word carried a political connotation. I was aware of the fact that N. Ireland is the more common of the two terms these days, but I didn't know it was the preferred term because of politics. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
I'll also point out that most people from Northern Ireland who are of a Roman Catholic background (about 45% of them) would probably not regard themselves as 'Ulster Scots' or 'Scots-Irish'. | ||||||||||
| Uriel |
Excellent flag, loic!
Who calls Northern Ireland "Ulster" in the US, Porthos? I've never heard that. |
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| Porthos |
Again, more in a historical sense. And I've seen it used that way in literary terms in modern times, but most of the time I hear it being called Northern Ireland, but I certainly have heard the term "Ulster" being used sort of as a shorthand even in the modern sense. |
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| Daniel |
Why even use "Ulster" at all though if you didn't know it carried any political connotation? You do know that "Northern Ireland" is the neutral term, don't you?
I've never seen an official map with the word "Ulster" on "Northern Ireland" anyway or even in books. Well, at least, you know now!
That's even messier...! What is "shorthand"? Laziness? |
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| Porthos |
Not at all. It is very common to use either "Ulster Scot" or "Scots-Irish". Many Scots-Irish immigrants preferred the term "Ulster-Scots" because the "Irish" in the former was confused with the post-1840 Catholic Irish. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
It's messy because of the political connotations terms like that carry when applied to people from Northern Ireland today. Or at least that's what I think Daniel meant. Seriously, a person from Northern Ireland is a person from Northern Ireland — safer that way, because if you try to apply anything else to them then you have about a 50% chance of offending them, assuming you don't know their background. They might see themselves as British, Irish, or both, and they might also apply additional labels to themselves, but it's best not to make any assumptions about this. |
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| Porthos |
So, it's a political taboo, along the lines of calling an Asian an "Oriental", or a Black person "Coloured" or "Negro"?? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
It's a political taboo to project any kind of single identity onto Northern Ireland. Any attempt to do so will usually have either British (i.e. Unionist) or Republican Irish (i.e. Nationalist) connotations, and 'Ulster Scots' certainly has Unionist connotations. Since we're on the subject of Northern Ireland, I'll give you some other advice: If you meet someone from Northern Ireland, you should avoid asking them whether they are a 'Protestant' or a 'Catholic', or a Unionist or a Nationalist. Avoid talking to them about the problems if you've only just met them — so if you're working in that hotel again this summer and you meet some girls from Northern Ireland by the pool, don't start asking them lots of questions about it, because it is unlikely to be appreciated. And again, don't project any kind of national identity onto them either. Call the city 'Derry', not 'Londonderry'. Both terms are politically loaded, but 'Derry' is perhaps slightly less Nationalist than 'Londonderry' is Unionist. Do not assume that many people in mainland Britain are interested in 'holding onto' Northern Ireland — if anything, the opposite is true. |
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| Porthos |
Hum, insightful information. Thank you. |
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| bruce |
I'm currently living in America, but I originally came from Vietnam.
<img src="http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~cmmr/vietnam_flag.gif"> That's the official flag of Vietnam, but Vietnamese people don't usually associate themselves with that flag because it embodies communist ideals, which most Vietnamese are against. Instead, we associate ourselves with the pre-Communist flag. <img src="http://www.qxpham.com/flag_std.jpg"> I'm living in America right now, and we all know what that looks like. |
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| bruce |
Hmm, that's weird. What did I do wrong?
Let's try it again. 
pre-Communist Vietnamese flag! 
the current, official, COMMUNIST flag of Vietnam (booo to all the Commies). O=) |
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| Uriel |
Hi, Bruce! Welcome to Langcafe. Where did you come from in Vietnam, and whereabouts in the US are you living now? | ||||||||||
| bruce |
Thanks Uriel, for your warm welcome :)
I come from a rural province in Southern Vietnam, but my parents were originally Northern Vietnamese, so I speak the Northern Dialect. We immigrated to America in the early 90's, and now I'm living in Orange County (Southern California). But pretty soon, I'll be living in Los Angeles where I'll be attending UCLA (University of California Los Angeles)!!!!! |
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| Uriel |
Very interesting! I think you're our first Vietnamese, or Vietnamese-American as the case may be. Good luck in school. What do you plan to study at UCLA (or have you gotten that far)? And how does Northern Vietnamese differ from the southern variety? | ||||||||||
| bruce |
The first Vietnamese, huh? Haha, what an honor! I'm definitely not the only Vietnamese-American in Orange County. I think I've heard somewhere that my area has the largest concentration of Vietnamese people outside of Vietnam!
Northern Vietnamese is the more *standardized* dialect. We pronounce everything the way it is written, so it is very phonetic. We have five distinct tones, just like how it's supposed to be. Central Vietnamese and Southern Vietnamese, however, is what I would describe as "wacked out." =D The Southern Vietnamese don't pronounce everything according to how it is spelt, and they definitely merge a couple of the *tones* It's difficult to describe in words--you have to hear it to understand. But anyway...I'll be entering UCLA in the fall with a major in what else? LINGUISTICS! I'm not sure what branch of linguistics I want to study, but that's the major I chose, and I think I'll think of a specialization later. However, right now, I'm actually considering changing from Linguistics to Global Studies so that I could travel the world and really experience the cultures of other countries. But then, of course, there's always the dream of going to med school, becoming a doctor, and then indulging myself with a Mercedez-Benz and a beach-front house (right after I pay my 100+ thousand dollar debt for grad school) =P |
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| Porthos |
Interestingly enough, I was just at UCLA all day yesterday. If I decide to study business economics as an alternative to business administration, which is in short supply at UCs, then I might very well go to UCLA, after my first choice which would be Berkeley. I've been living away from L.A. for over 4 years now, with 3 years spent in Las Vegas, and this last year spent in Central California. Despite growing up in L.A., I'm always hit with this "culture shock" everytime I'm there. Compared to the small town in the agricultural heartland of California where I live now, everyone seems so sassy and chic, sophisticated. It is so much more cosmopolitan with a huge range of ethnic groups and a large concentration of people of alternative lifestyles. Not to mention all of the traffic and congestion, and pollution in the environment. I also get this false comfort of being tall whenever I visit L.A. although I'm only 5'10. Where I live, among white people, I feel on the short side, but when I'm surrounded by Asians, Italians, Arabs, in a big city like L.A., I actually feel rather tall.
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| bruce |
I gave up Berkeley for UCLA. I know! Dumb choice! :( I visited Berkeley in April and I absolutely fell in love with it. But circumstances made me choose UCLA over Berkeley. I eventually got over it and then I started to develop some Berkeley pride, but the feeling of regret about leaving behind Berkeley is catching up to me again. :( Oh well...GO BRUINS! :)
I'm looking forward to the "culture shock" that you're talking about! I don't live in a rural area, but I don't live in a suburban area either. My teacher described our area as a "bastardization" of an urban city and a quiet suburb. I'm really looking forward to the "sassy-ness" and "chic-ness" and "sophistication." But I'm also scared! Maybe they're too liberal! Maybe they'll be too fixated on money and materialistic things. Maybe they'll have hearts of ice! Three more months and I'm off to my doom!!!! You know what, Porthos, if you get "culture shock" by visiting UCLA, how in the world do you plan to deal when you live in Berkeley and the Bay Area! O_O!!! haha |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Interesting — so are Italians considered 'non-white' in California? |
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| Porthos |
The "culture shock" is not a bad thing. I prefer metropolitan areas much more than where I live now. And I absolutely love San Francisco, and certainly a lot more than L.A., where I grew up.
No they are, but there's not very many in rural areas, and by "white" I was thinking of the rural, North-Western European people, who are taller on average than italians. |
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| Elaine |
Yes, all true! We also get unsuspecting travelers pissed drunk and steal their kidneys... I eat them for breakfast, served with cilantro and a dash of tabasco. 
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| bruce |
Hahahaha, that's nice to hear, Elaine. I shall be looking forward to living there then! I just have to make sure that I don't get so completely wasted at those frat parties. If I ever have a liver stolen, though, I can have any of my parents or siblings donate :) No problem. | ||||||||||
| Porthos |
So Bruce Wayne, where in So Cal do you live exactly? Do you live near San Diego or Temecula or something, because you speak of L.A. as being this very foreign place. | ||||||||||
| bruce |
Haha, Porthos, I'm just being melodramatic! Los Angeles isn't really THAT foreign to me, but I'm a good hour away from it...about 50 miles from my house to UCLA. In fact, I live on the border of Garden Grove and Anaheim--down the street from Disneyland. I know what you're thinking...this guy, making LA out to be such an off and distant place.
In my defense, it IS a little bit foreign because I've been really sheltered all my life. Haha. I was at my friend's house in Riverside County last summer, and I was literally like, "WHOA! YOU GUYS HAVE A WALMART TOO!?" That shows how much I don't get out! I was only 60 miles away from home and I felt like I was in a different country! |
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| Elaine |
He lives behind the Orange Curtain... of course he finds LA to be a foreign place!
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| Porthos |
Lol. They are two different worlds depending on where you're at.
Garbage Grove?? Haha, lol, I'm just kidding. Yeah, there are quite a few Asians around there. Isn't Little Saigon somewhere around there? Being that you live in Disney City (I say that because the company has a controlling interest in just about everything in that town), don't tell me you're an Angels fan. It's funny that you consider yourself to be 50 miles away from L.A. I generally think of L.A. in the "greater Los Angeles area" sense, so that anything in L.A. county is basically "L.A." to me. Heck, when I lived in Vegas, for everyone's sake, I even refered to Lakewood and Long Beach as L.A. But a place like Westwood certainly would feel a lot different from suburban areas like Garden Grove. We call them "suburban", but to most outsiders, they would all be large cities in themselves! |
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| Deborah |
Yes, it's definitely time you saw a bit more of the world. (Did you know they even have a Walmart in Corpus Christi, TX??) |
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| Uriel |
Shoot, we have TWO in Las Cruces! Must be movin' up inthe world! (Mmm-hmm, sing it with me: Fish don't fry in the kitchen, beans don't burn on the grill....)
Orange Curtain, piffle. I lived in NORTHERN California. You know -- above Big Sur?
Hell -- above SACRAMENTO, even! Practically Lower Oregon! Yes, Benjamin, Italians are white -- but just barely.
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| Elaine |
Garden Grove is a lovely place, at least what I've seen of it... or maybe I'm thinking of West Garden Grove. Anyway, I have to say, GG does seem a bit "alien" to me. At one corner you have what seems to be an all-Vietnamese population, at another corner you have an all-Korean population, and then at another you have Disneyland for Christians.
The Crystal Cathedral: 
Ach Mein Gott! How did you ever survive that?!
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| Elaine |
Getting back to flags...
Question: what does your region/state/nation's flag mean to you? Do you look upon it with fondness? Does it carry a whole lot of significance to you? Or do you look upon it with ambivalence... or even dread? Over in Montebello (a place that Josh knows well, I believe), a group of students from Montebello High took down the US flag during the big protest rally last summer, hoisted the Mexican flag, and hung the US flag upside down underneath it. This act outraged millions of Americans (and if you ask me, did no favors to the cause of immigrants, undocumented or otherwise, in this country), while others said "Relax. It's just a flag." But is it just a flag or something more? What would've been your reaction if it was your country's flag treated in such a manner? 
Click to see full size image |
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| Porthos |
Ha! Reminds me of a scene from Godfather II where Freddy's wife drunkenly shouts Never marry a wop!! at the top of her lungs. Maybe she didn't notice that the wedding party was full of Italians! Lol.
It's from a Sublime song, called "Garbage Grove". A lot of people call it that ever since then. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Dread, I'm afraid. I see the British flag as essentially a symbolism of imperialism. When I see the English flag, I think of small churches, football, and, I'm afraid, racism. I like the Scottish flag though, which I suppose will be 'my nation's flag' from 22nd September onwards.
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| Porthos |
You do realize that you will always be English no matter how long you live in Scotland, right? |
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| Elaine |
Yes, I know. I'm very familiar with Sublime songs. However, even people who've never been to Garden Grove call it that, so I wanted to set the record straight.
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| Porthos |
Well, by all means then!
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| Pauline |
I like the Belgian national flag; it can be found on the boxes / wrapper of good chcolates My region's flag is a nice chicken LOL!! not the same one as crossed the road. The flemish racist and extremists have made a walloon flag with the chicken who look half (or nearly) dead falling down on the ground.
But so much significance i don't think so, also not love or bad feelings.In my family we havn't a flag I think, but in my village there's always those 2 flags. |
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| Elaine |
Hmm, interesting. I wonder, is there any group that you feel any sort of allegiance or kinship to? Any ideals worth fighting (or dying) for? You seem to me to be very detached from your origins/background, or am I mistaken? |
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| Porthos |
Unitarians and the Pinko Club. Lol. Just giving you a hard time Benjamin.
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
What makes you say that? 'Scottishness' is not an 'ethnic' thing; there are black people who identify as 'Scottish', for example. |
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| Porthos |
I wasn't speaking of "English" in the ethnic sense. I was referring to your culture, and particularly your accent and place of origin, which will always betray your English origins. You spent all of your formative years in England, and grew up as a person of English nationality. You're English, and you always will be, just as I will always be an American no matter where I move. I will always be percieved as an American, just as you will always be percieved as an English "person", even while living in Scotland. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Unitarians, similar religious groups (e.g. Quakers), the Green Party, and anyone else with views which are both very left-wing, socially liberal and environmentalist.
Not exactly, because my parents essentially have similar sorts of views to me. My father, for example, admits that he was slightly more sympathetic towards the Soviet Union than towards the United States during the Cold War. |
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| Porthos |
So is he a card carrying member of the Communist Party? You're of legal age. Do you have your card yet?
If your father was more sympathetic toward the USSR than to the U.S., he was essentially supporting the enemy of his own country. Wouldn't that be somewhat treasonous? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Many 'posh' Scottish people actually speak RP anyway. A perfect example would be Robin Harper, co-convener of the Scottish Green Party, and leader of the Green parliamentary group in the Scottish Parliament. Equally, people's way of speaking can change if they live in another place long enough. I met one of my mum's old friends a few years ago, who had moved to the United States about 15 years previously — he now sounds completely American.
There's no such thing as 'English nationality', I'm afraid.
My cousin's great-uncle moved to Germany when he was 16, and ended up staying there, such that he's now been there for about 60 years. He married a German woman, has become a German citizen, now speaks better German than English, and even sounds German when he speaks English. Can you really say that he's not German, simply because he spent the first 16 years old his life in England?
About 20% of the population of Scotland were originally from England. Some of these people continue to identify with England, whilst others adopt a Scottish identity. If I wish to consider myself Scottish once I've moved to Scotland (because as far as the government's concerned, I will be Scottish), then that is entirely my choice. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
No, and he never has been. He usually votes either Labour or Liberal Democrat. Notice I didn't say that he specifically supported the Soviet Union — but one could say that he was marginally more sympathetic to it than to the United States.
You're right, I could join the Communist Party of Scotland. But I think I'm going to join the Scottish Green Party instead.
Ha — there were actually quite a people in Western Europe who favoured the Soviet Union over the United States, despite the official positions of the governments. Ever heard of George Galloway? He described the fall of the Soviet Union as 'the greatest tragedy of [his] life', and he's a Member of Parliament — elected by the first-past-the-post system as well.
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| Porthos |
Yep, I was aware of that. Sad, really, considering all that the U.S. did for Western Europe. Liberated them from the Nazis, kept them safe from Soviet domination, gave them billions of dollars (in today's money) for the re-construction of their economies, etc. |
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| Walker |
I look upon the Swedish flag with some ambivalence; it stands for Sweden which is my native country. But sometimes I squint when I see it because it has tainted by neo-nazis. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
It will probably come as no surprise to you that that doesn't tend to be perceived quite that way here. I think that Western Europeans were perfectly entitled to support the Soviet Union over the United States if they wanted to. |
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| Uriel |
Not touching that one with a 10-foot pole.
I have to say that whenever I see the American flag, I think to myself, Now that's a party flag. That's a flag who knows how to have a good time. It's got stripes, but it ain't afraid to mix 'em up with some stars -- good taste be damned! I don't get all worked up over symbolism, but I have to say that I prefer an OTT, exuberant design over a more staid one. |
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| KSa |
There are some people who were, let's say, slightly more sympathetic towards Nazi Germany than to the occupied countries during WWII. Apparently it can't be helped. |
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| KSa |
Well said, Porthos. |
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| KSa |
Fortunately these Western Europeans, supporters of communism, who despaired when communist system collapsed (BTW: in the SU they were called "useful idiots"), were outnumbered by those who did their best to stop millions of people from suffering. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Why? Technically, any British citizen whose primary address is in Scotland is 'Scottish'. There is even a special term for people originally from elsewhere who have moved to Scotland — 'New Scots'. There are a number of MSPs (Members of the Scottish Parliament) who were not originally from Scotland. Heck, the former deputy leader of the Scottish National Party actually grew up in Australia. I strongly disagree with the idea that it is not possible for someone originally from elsewhere to become 'Scottish' if they wish to. Do you thus believe that it is not possible for someone not originally from Poland to become Polish? |
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| Walker |
I don't want to pull you down, Benjamin, (or Harrenys for that matter) but I have to agree with what Porthos has said. Also, I would imagine that it's especially heavy in your case, being that you're an Englishman and that the country you will live in is Scotland. We talked to a bartender in Ireland about what they think of the English, and he told us that up until a few years ago many people there didn't want anything to do with them. But apparently it's getting better. When we asked what he thought about the English he just shrugged and avoided eye contact. He was 20 years old tops. |
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