Porthos
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French and Spanish verbsI noticed that French and Spanish verbs seem more similar to each other in conjugated form than they do otherwise. Is it just me, or have you noticed the same thing also?
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fab
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Hmmmm.... I don't think so. I tend to think that generally the infinitive form is more similar. But it depends also the tenses.
I had remarked that verb in -ir are often more similar, a lot of them are the exact same at infinitive form in both languages :
sentir
dormir
venir
usually the verbs of the other groups have bit differences :
defendre - defender
paraitre - parecer
produire - producir
influir - influer
dar - donner
decir - dire
poder - pouvoir
saber - savoir
tener - tenir (avoir)
haber - avoir
etc.
Maybe what josh say may be true for auxilliary verbs such as "ser" , "estar" or "haber"
apparently ser/estar look different to "être" at infinitive form,
but may be more similar at other tenses :
Je suis / Yo soy- Yo estoy
Tu es / Tu eres- Tu estas
Il est / El es- El esta
Nous sommes/ Nosotros somos- estamos
Vous êtes/ Vosotros sois- estais
Ils sont/ ellos son- estan
verbs at future are generally very similar :
Je serai / Yo seré ("ai" and "é" : almost same pronounciation)
Tu seras / Tu seras
Il sera / El sera
Nous serons / nosotros seremos
Vous serez / vosotros sereis
Ils seront / Ellos seran
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Porthos
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My friend and I were discussing some of the similarities between French and Spanish, as he is a French speaker. He sent me a text message which said "ce va?" or something like that, and I knew he meant "how are things going?", even though that is very different from the Spanish expression "que tal?" or "que pasa?" because I immediately recognized the verb in its conjugated form. Another example would be "savez" and "sabe". "Savoir" and "Saber" sound very different, but in their conjugated form, they sound the same, at least in the "vous/usted". I think they are the same in the "tu" form too, but I'm not sure. French and Spansih are not exactly the closest languages within the Romance group, but they are still sister languages, and the similarities that I can recognize abound.
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Porthos
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And Fab, le Francais n'a pas l'equivalent de "ser/estar", correct?
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fab
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Josh, ça va ?
Comment vas-tu ?
Je sais que tu ne parles pas le Français, mais vas-tu me comprendre ?
Si tu parles dejà Espagnol il est possible de comprendre quelques phrases faciles, bien que tu n'aies jamais appris.
Si c'est un peu trop difficile, dis-le moi.
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fab
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| Quote: | | And Fab, le Francais n'a pas l'equivalent de "ser/estar", correct? |
Si, l'equivalent est le verbe "être". Mais nous n'avons pas deux verbes différents, un seul. Il n'y a pas la différenciation entre "ser" et "estar" comme en Espagnol. C'est plus facile !
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Porthos
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| fab wrote: | Josh, ça va ?
Comment vas-tu ?
Je sais que tu ne parles pas le Français, mais vas-tu me comprendre ?
Si tu parles dejà Espagnol il est possible de comprendre quelques phrases faciles, bien que tu n'aies jamais appris.
Si c'est un peu trop difficile, dis-le moi. |
Non, absolument pas. Je comprend vous tres bien. (excusez ma grammaire) - 
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Porthos
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| fab wrote: | | Quote: | | And Fab, le Francais n'a pas l'equivalent de "ser/estar", correct? |
Si, l'equivalent est le verbe "être". Mais nous n'avons pas deux verbes différents, un seul. Il n'y a pas la différenciation entre "ser" et "estar" comme en Espagnol. C'est plus facile ! |
Fab, are you writing in a certain way for me as to facilitate a better comprehension, or are you just writing in French as you normally would? I ask this because I understood you word-for-word, 100% of the last two posts, and I have had no instruction in French. That Spanish is sure becoming more useful. 
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Porthos wrote: | | Je comprend vous tres bien. (excusez ma grammaire) - |
You actually use a similar structure to Spanish here:
yo vos compreno muy bien
je vous comprends très bien
However, it would probably be more appropriate to address Fab with 'tu', rather than 'vous' (as I always have).
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fab
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| Quote: | | Non, absolument pas. Je comprend vous tres bien. (excusez ma grammaire) |
It is strange, because you seem to use an english word order... 
"je comprend vous tres bien" = "je vous comprends très bien"
PS : Tu peux me tutoyer (dire "tu") ! : "Je TE comprends très bien"
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fab
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| Quote: | | Fab, are you writing in a certain way for me as to facilitate a better comprehension |
A little bit, I try not to use difficult ways. It is better to start with simple things.
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Porthos
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Is the French word order the same as Spanish? I know Spanish relies more on intonation, so that a declarative and interrogative sentence are identical, aside from the question mark. French uses things a bit different, and French doesn't eliminate the pronouns the way Spanish does I either. I might have better success trying Spanish word order when attempting to write in French. Here are two things I noticed:
"Je vous" is like "a mi" or "me diga" (literally, "me usted diga")
And I learned "dire" today, from you.
<<Tu peux me tutoyer (dire "tu") ! : "Je TE comprends très bien">>
But you are older than me. Besides, I don't know very much of anything in the 'tu' form I'm afraid. That's why I am hesitant to use it.
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fab
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| Quote: | | But you are older than me |
On internet forum, it is always very informal. It sounds very strange to say "vous" in internet, whatever the age.
Anyway I'm older than you, but I'm still young !!! Say "vous" would sound as if you considered me to be a retired person ... 
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Porthos wrote: | | Is the French word order the same as Spanish? I know Spanish relies more on intonation, so that a declarative and interrogative sentence are identical, aside from the question mark. French uses things a bit different, and French doesn't eliminate the pronouns the way Spanish does I either. I might have better success trying Spanish word order when attempting to write in French. |
If in doubt, go for a more Spanish-like word order than an English-like one in French.
| Quote: | | But you are older than me. Besides, I don't know very much of anything in the 'tu' form I'm afraid. That's why I am hesitant to use it. |
I find that French speakers almost always use 'tu' on internet forums. I personally hate using 'vous' in French (or 'Sie' in German) because I feel that it creates a distance which I think is unnecessary — so I tend to use 'tu' when I think I can get away with it, lol. Having said that, I subconsciously do the same in English — where I'd address someone as 'vous' in French, I pronounce the 'you' properly in English, whilst where I'd address someone as 'tu' in French, I pronounce it is 'ya'.
Basically, regular '-er' verbs in French conjugate like this in the present tense:
je parle (I speak etc.)
tu parles
il parle
nous parlons
vous parlez
ils parlent
However, there is no difference in pronunciation between 'parle', 'parles' and 'parlent'.
The verb 'comprendre' is an irregular '-re' verb, and conjugates like this in the present tense:
je comprends
tu comprends
il comprend
nous comprenons
vous comprenez
ils comprennent
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fab
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| Quote: | However, there is no difference in pronunciation between 'parle', 'parles' and 'parlent'.
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That is mainly the reason why we keep the pronoms (je, tu, il, etc.), because in a lot of cases, even if the writing is different, the pronounciation is similar, so it is used all the time to avoid the confusion.
In spanish it is use also to avoid confusion, but only in some cases.
" yo no podria..."
As for the word order... if you don't know french grammar you should better use the Spanish word order.
Just exemples phrases with the same words in English, Spanish and French:
United Nation Organisation UNO (english word order)
Organisation des nation unies ONU (french word order)
Organisacion des la naciones unidas ONU (Spanish word order)
AIDS = SIDA in French and Spanish
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Porthos
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| fab wrote: | | Quote: | | But you are older than me |
Anyway I'm older than you, but I'm still young !!! Say "vous" would sound as if you considered me to be a retired person ... |
Oh Fab, you old fart! Don't you have a grandchild's dance rehearsal to attend or something? 
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Porthos
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| fab wrote: | | Quote: | However, there is no difference in pronunciation between 'parle', 'parles' and 'parlent'.
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That is mainly the reason why we keep the pronoms (je, tu, il, etc.), because in a lot of cases, even if the writing is different, the pronounciation is similar, so it is used all the time to avoid the confusion.
In spanish it is use also to avoid confusion, but only in some cases.
" yo no podria..." |
This is one of the few cases in Spanish when the "yo", "usted", and "el/ella" are conjugated the same. That has to be one of the hardest things about French. I mean the fact that different forms of a verb can sound exactly the same, even if they are actually different words with different spellings. Something as simple as "le" and "les" both sound the same too.
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Porthos
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But I have noticed many times before that the French and Spanish word order and or grammar are different. But I suppose it would still be better if I used Spanish word order, as it is more likely to be like the French one than the English would be.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Porthos wrote: | | I mean the fact that different forms of a verb can sound exactly the same, even if they are actually different words with different spellings. |
I can't say that I've ever had a problem with this, but I've known it for rather a long time. I find that there are basically two conjugation patterns in French. There's the one that goes:
-e
-es
-e
-ons
-ez
-ent
... and there's the one that goes
-s
-s
-t
-ons
-ez
-ent
| Quote: | | Something as simple as "le" and "les" both sound the same too. |
They don't actually. The French 'le' almost rhymes with the English 'the', whilst 'les' sounds a bit similar to the English 'lay'.
| Quote: | | But I have noticed many times before that the French and Spanish word order and or grammar are different. But I suppose it would still be better if I used Spanish word order, as it is more likely to be like the French one than the English would be. |
That's a good idea. You're right though that there are differences, as Spanish word order is a bit more flexible than French word order.
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Porthos
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Hum, I've never detected a difference between the plural and singular form of "le" in French. But now that I think about it, it does sound different. I always took this for being lazy pronounciation by native speakers at a fast pace.
What's interesting about Spanish is that although the words for "the" are different from French (besides "la") or "it" - examples (il, el), (el, la) etc, Spanish will still have them, only for different purposes. For instance, Spanish will use "le" for "usted" or "him" depending on the situation, the same way it uses "lo". Spanish will also use "les", as in "them" or "they", depending on the situation.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Quote: | | What's interesting about Spanish is that although the words for "the" are different from French (besides "la") or "it" - examples (il, el), (el, la) etc, Spanish will still have them, only for different purposes. For instance, Spanish will use "le" for "usted" or "him" depending on the situation, the same way it uses "lo". Spanish will also use "les", as in "them" or "they", depending on the situation. |
Aren't 'le' and 'les' used for the indirect objects in the third person in Spanish? (Although apparently in Madrid, they often use those instead of 'lo' and 'los').
French does this as well:
il — he (subject)
le — him (direct object)
lui — to him (indirect object)
elle — she (subject)
la — her (direct object)
lui — to her (indirect object)
ils/elles — they (subject)
les — them (direct object)
leur — to them (indirect object)
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Porthos
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I'm not sure what you mean, but here is an example:
Voy a llevar le a mi casa. = I'm going to take *you* to my house.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Porthos wrote: | I'm not sure what you mean, but here is an example:
Voy a llevar le a mi casa. = I'm going to take *you* to my house. |
Oh I see — you're using that for Usted, which is conjugated like the third person singular.
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Porthos
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| Benjamin wrote: | | Porthos wrote: | I'm not sure what you mean, but here is an example:
Voy a llevar le a mi casa. = I'm going to take *you* to my house. |
Oh I see — you're using that for Usted, which is conjugated like the third person singular. |
I'm not sure what "third person singular" means, but yes, I am using it for "usted".
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fab
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Oulala... Les pronom réfléchis c'est pas ce qu'il y a de plus facile !
- lui as-tu donné les clés de la voiture ?
- donne-les-lui !
- Je ne veux pas les lui donner.
- Si, il faut que tu y ailles pour lui refaire faire un trousseau.
- Y vas-tu ? ou bien n'en as-tu pas assez...
Un petit exemple pour se mettre en appetit, mais je pense que c'est un peu prématuré d'aborder ce sujet...
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Porthos
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| fab wrote: | Oulala... Les pronom réfléchis c'est pas ce qu'il y a de plus facile !
- lui as-tu donné les clés de la voiture ?
- donne-les-lui !
- Je ne veux pas les lui donner.
- Si, il faut que tu y ailles pour lui refaire faire un trousseau.
- Y vas-tu ? ou bien n'en as-tu pas assez...
Un petit exemple pour se mettre en appetit, mais je pense que c'est un peu prématuré d'aborder ce sujet... |
Could you please translate this part in English? - "Si, il faut que tu y ailles pour lui refaire faire un trousseau."
"pense" is the almost the same as Spanish. Is the infinitive form the same as "pensar"?
And in French, is "si" (yes) and "si" (if) distinguished by an accent mark as it is in Spanish?
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Porthos wrote: | | Could you please translate this part in English? - "Si, il faut que tu y ailles pour lui refaire faire un trousseau." |
This seems like an idiomatic expression with which I am unfamiliar, as it doesn't make sense when translated literally into English. Do tell... what does it mean?
| Quote: | | "pense" is the almost the same as Spanish. Is the infinitive form the same as "pensar"? |
The infinitive is 'penser'. Basically...
Present Tense
je pense
tu penses
il pense
nous pensons
vous pensez
ils pensent
Imperfect Tense
je pensais
tu pensais
il pensait
nous pensions
vous pensiez
ils pensaient
Perfect Tense
j'ai pensé
tu as pensé
il a pensé
nous avons pensé
vous avez pensé
ils ont pensé
Future Tense
je penserai
tu penseras
il pensera
nous penserons
vous penserez
ils penseront
Conditional Tense
je penserais
tu penserais
il penserait
nous penserions
vous penseriez
ils penseraient
(I'll give you the other tenses if you want).
| Quote: | | And in French, is "si" (yes) and "si" (if) distinguished by an accent mark as it is in Spanish? |
No. Equally, in French, 'si' only means yes after a negative. Like this:
Habites-tu en France? — Do you live in France?
Oui, j'habite en France. — Yes, I live in France
Non, je n'habite pas en France. — No, I don't live in France.
N'habites-tu pas en France? — Don't you live in France?
Si, j'habite en France. — Yes, I do live in France.
Non, je n'habite pas en France. No, I don't live in France.
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Porthos
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Yeah, I knew about the use of "si" in French. I was actually corrected by a Frenchman a long time ago when I responded to a negative question with "oui".
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