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Porthos

Good News on the language acquisition front

Okay, so as some of you know, I've been teaching myself Dutch this past week. I've only been learning from exposure basically. I read Dutch material and then translate it on babelfish, and so expand my vocabulary. I've been using these two sites as well to learn about orthography, grammar, and core vocab.

http://homepage.mac.com/schuffelen/Dutch14.html

http://www.taalthuis.com/course/hoofd.htm

But this is all very limited. I haven't made an effort to truly apply myself to learning the language, as I don't have the time. I've been speaking Dutch to my mother, friends, and my dog, and they all look at me like I'm crazy. They all ask why I would waste my time learning Dutch, as there are virtually no Dutch speakers in California, lol, which is true. It's not of much practical value. But I like the language, although it is ugly and harsh in my opinion.

My comprehension of spoken Dutch is very little, but I'm able to decipher basic Dutch in written form, and I can follow many conversations.

I thought my newfound knowledge of Dutch would aid in my comprehension of German, but I have not found that to be the case. I read one text in Dutch, and understood about 50% of it, and tried reading the same text in German and found it to be almost completely uncomprehensible. But I am able to understand a small fraction of Afrikaans now. Speaking of which, I would love it if someone had a link to spoken Afrikaans. Is it true that Afrikaans is softer than Dutch?
Walker

Re: Good News on the language acquisition front

Porthos wrote:
But this is all very limited. I haven't made an effort to truly apply myself to learning the language, as I don't have the time. I've been speaking Dutch to my mother, friends, and my dog, and they all look at me like I'm crazy. They all ask why I would waste my time learning Dutch, as there are virtually no Dutch speakers in California, lol, which is true. It's not of much practical value. But I like the language, although it is ugly and harsh in my opinion.


Why do you like it? Because it's simpler than German?

Quote:
Speaking of which, I would love it if someone had a link to spoken Afrikaans.


Maybe André (or somebody else) still has his audio clip?
Porthos

Quote:
Why do you like it? Because it's simpler than German?


Basically, yeah. lol. At least for an English speaker, it's a lot easier than German. Although German sounds a lot more pleasant, and it's even easier to pronounce, because I often mess up when pronouncing Dutch gutterals.
Walker

Porthos wrote:
...because I often mess up when pronouncing Dutch gutterals.


Do you mean when to pronounce them or how to pronounce them?
Porthos

Walker wrote:
Porthos wrote:
...because I often mess up when pronouncing Dutch gutterals.


Do you mean when to pronounce them or how to pronounce them?


Well, I know how to pronounce them, but sometimes I mess up when using them, because they're difficult to pronounce.
Benjamin [inactive]

I presume that you don't pronounce 'j' (and 'ge' and 'gi') like that in your dialect of Spanish then?
Walker

Benjamin wrote:
I presume that you don't pronounce 'j' (and 'ge' and 'gi') like that in your dialect of Spanish then?


I was wondering about that, Porthos, you said that 'j's in your dialect aren't pronounced like they are in Standard Spanish. So, how do you pronounce your 'j's?

PS. Just to help you explain - I know how the Standard Spanish 'j' is pronounced.
Tiorthan

Porthos wrote:
I thought my newfound knowledge of Dutch would aid in my comprehension of German, but I have not found that to be the case.

You'll need a very high level of Dutch to aid in your understanding of German.
Porthos

Tiorthan wrote:
Porthos wrote:
I thought my newfound knowledge of Dutch would aid in my comprehension of German, but I have not found that to be the case.

You'll need a very high level of Dutch to aid in your understanding of German.


Why is that? The two are so similar.
Porthos

Walker wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I presume that you don't pronounce 'j' (and 'ge' and 'gi') like that in your dialect of Spanish then?


I was wondering about that, Porthos, you said that 'j's in your dialect aren't pronounced like they are in Standard Spanish. So, how do you pronounce your 'j's?

PS. Just to help you explain - I know how the Standard Spanish 'j' is pronounced.


I don't hear any difference between my "j"s and a Castillian "j".

What I do pronounce differently is the "gua" sound, and the letter "b". In my family's dialect, "b" is almost always pronounced as "v", and "v" is pronounced just like a "v", but in many dialects, both "v"s and "b"s are pronounced as "b"s, with the exception of a few words like "vaca".

For instance, many dialects, including large parts of Mexico, will pronounce my mother's name, "Viviana", as "Bibiana".

And many Spanish dialects will pronounce "ll" and "y" as a "g/j" sound. I don't. I pronounce these sounds as an English "y" sound.

Northern Mexican Spanish is one of the most clearly pronounced dialects of Spanish in the world. Spaniards, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans don't seem to know how to enunciate. But one thing we do do that is sorta sloppy is our tendency to drop the final "s" of words, as it seems to slow down your speech in some cases.

For instance, "mas rapido", will often be said as "ma rapido", and when conjugating verbs in the informal "tu" form, (which calls for adding an "s" at the end of verbs), we often drop the "s", so that it appears as if we're using the "usted" form.
ddog800

cool man, i'm also working my way into dutch, since i've been studying afrikaans for quite sometime now and have become quite conversational with it. still getting used to the spelling differences with dutch, and haven't even approached pronunciations yet, but i've gotten to where i can read quite a bit of it, as well as getting used to the grammatical differences.
Yelina

Porthos wrote:
What I do pronounce differently is the "gua" sound, and the letter "b". In my family's dialect, "b" is almost always pronounced as "v", and "v" is pronounced just like a "v", but in many dialects, both "v"s and "b"s are pronounced as "b"s, with the exception of a few words like "vaca".
For instance, many dialects, including large parts of Mexico, will pronounce my mother's name, "Viviana", as "Bibiana".

And many Spanish dialects will pronounce "ll" and "y" as a "g/j" sound. I don't. I pronounce these sounds as an English "y" sound.


I always pronounce the "v"s like " b"s though I sometimes hear some people pronounce it like "v"s.
Concerning the "ll" and "y", I pronounce like you. I never heard anyone pronounce them as "g/j". My Spanish friends pronounce them like "d" and I sometimes used to do so, but it was seldom. I prefer to say as I've been taught, i.e "y"!
Porthos

Yelina wrote:
Porthos wrote:
What I do pronounce differently is the "gua" sound, and the letter "b". In my family's dialect, "b" is almost always pronounced as "v", and "v" is pronounced just like a "v", but in many dialects, both "v"s and "b"s are pronounced as "b"s, with the exception of a few words like "vaca".
For instance, many dialects, including large parts of Mexico, will pronounce my mother's name, "Viviana", as "Bibiana".

And many Spanish dialects will pronounce "ll" and "y" as a "g/j" sound. I don't. I pronounce these sounds as an English "y" sound.


I always pronounce the "v"s like " b"s though I sometimes hear some people pronounce it like "v"s.
Concerning the "ll" and "y", I pronounce like you. I never heard anyone pronounce them as "g/j". My Spanish friends pronounce them like "d" and I sometimes used to do so, but it was seldom. I prefer to say as I've been taught, i.e "y"!


Concerning the "gua" sound, I pronounce it much like an English "wa" sound. The "g" becomes silent, and the combination of the three letters almost makes a "w" sound. So, "agua" sounds like "awah". Most dialects don't do this.

As for the "ll/y", you will hear many Spanish speakers pronounce them with an English "g/j" sound, when they come at the beginning of a word. So, "Yo" becomes "Go". I don't do this.
Porthos

Yelina, you changed your avatar! Are those your "bosoms"?
Yelina

Porthos wrote:
Concerning the "gua" sound, I pronounce it much like an English "wa" sound. The "g" becomes silent, and the combination of the three letters almost makes a "w" sound. So, "agua" sounds like "awah". Most dialects don't do this.

As for the "ll/y", you will hear many Spanish speakers pronounce them with an English "g/j" sound, when they come at the beginning of a word. So, "Yo" becomes "Go". I don't do this.


I've already heard some people pronounce the "gua" like you. As far as I'm concerned, I pronounce it as it's written!

As I mentioned in my former post, I've never heard anyone pronounce these letters as "g/j" but rather like "d" (and also like an English "j"). So, the word "yo" would become "dio" (and the name "Yoann" would be pronounced as "Joann").

Do your "h"s are silent or do you pronounce them? When my sister lived in Spain, she noticed that people tended to pronounce them as a slight Spanish "j". For example, they didn't say Halloween, but Jalloween. What about you?
Benjamin [inactive]

When I speak Spanish (which isn't very often these days), I pronounce 'j' (and 'g' before 'e' and 'i') the same as I would pronounce 'g' or 'ch' in Dutch, and I pronounce the 'll' like an English 'y' but with an 'l' sound before, so I'd pronounce 'llamo' kind of like 'lyamo'. And I sometimes pronounce 'y' a bit like a French 'j' if it comes at the beginning of the word.

(In case you were wondering, I haven't used IPA or X-SAMPA in this post because I don't think you know it, Porthos — correct me if I'm wrong).
Elaine

Porthos wrote:
As for the "ll/y", you will hear many Spanish speakers pronounce them with an English "g/j" sound, when they come at the beginning of a word. So, "Yo" becomes "Go". I don't do this.


Pronouncing "yo" as "go" doesn't look right to me. Do you mean /dZ/ as in "Joe"? I do that sometimes when I'm being lazy-- "tu y jo". The same with "ll" at the beginning of words or between vowels, either with a /dZ/ or a /Z/-- "¿como se jama?" "es para ejas, no es para ejos."

Nice rack, Yelina. Are they yours?
Daniel

Just to clarify: "g" before a, o and u is pronounced hard but "g" before e or i is pronounced softly. Gutturally of course.

I think when Porthos said that some Spaniards pronounce the "y" like "g" he meant the soft guttural "g".
Elaine

Daniel wrote:
I think when Porthos said that some Spaniards pronounce the "y" like "g" he meant the soft guttural "g".


Yes, I figured that's what he meant, it just looked confusing and could be interpreted incorrectly.

Oh by the way, I do the agua = awah thing too-- Watemala (Guatemala), wacamole (guacamole), wacho (guacho), way (güey), etc. I think that's the way us nacochidos from East Los speak.
Porthos

Quote:
(In case you were wondering, I haven't used IPA or X-SAMPA in this post because I don't think you know it, Porthos — correct me if I'm wrong).


No, unfortunately, I do not know it.





Quote:
When I speak Spanish (which isn't very often these days), I pronounce 'j' (and 'g' before 'e' and 'i') the same as I would pronounce 'g' or 'ch' in Dutch,


Waaait a minute there cowboy. You pronounce Spanish "j" like a Dutch "g"???? They're both similar in that they sort of resemble an English "h", but the Dutch "g" comes from the back of your throat, and is very gutteral. Spanish "j" is like an English "h" but with more gusto, with more wind in it. I'm not very good at explaining these things am I?

Quote:
Pronouncing "yo" as "go" doesn't look right to me. Do you mean /dZ/ as in "Joe"? I do that sometimes when I'm being lazy-- "tu y jo". The same with "ll" at the beginning of words or between vowels, either with a /dZ/ or a /Z/-- "¿como se jama?" "es para ejas, no es para ejos."


I have this theory on this laziness when it comes to pronounciation of "ll/y" for many, or my laziness when it comes to "gua". I think they both came into use because they allow for a faster rate of speech. People can talk faster with these adaptations. Dropping a final -s at the end of words allows you to run your words together as well.



Quote:
Do your "h"s are silent or do you pronounce them? When my sister lived in Spain, she noticed that people tended to pronounce them as a slight Spanish "j". For example, they didn't say Halloween, but Jalloween. What about you?


Always completely silent.



Quote:
I think when Porthos said that some Spaniards pronounce the "y" like "g" he meant the soft guttural "g".


Yeah, or like English "j".

So, back to Afrikaans audio, and reccomendations for self-teaching Dutch websites......
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
but the Dutch "g" comes from the back of your throat, and is very gutteral

In the northern Netherlands, yes. In the southern Netherlands and in Flanders, no.
Porthos

Quote:
Mijn hond

Waar kon mijn hond zijn?
Ik had geen idee waar hij was.
Hij was naar zijn hok gegaan, maar ik zag hem niet.
Dit gebeurde toch niet echt!
Ik hoopte dat hij niet in gevaar was. Het was een lief dier.
Misschien was hij naar de buurman gegaan.

Ik ging naar mijn buurman maar hij zei dat hij hem niet gezien had.
Ik ging naar het park en ik vond niet mijn hond, maar mijn vriendin.
"Dag Farah", zei ik, "hoe maak je het?"
"Het gaat me goed", zei Farah.

"Wat is er aan de hand?", vroeg Farah.
"Het is heel erg, ik ben mijn hond kwijt", zei ik.
"Dat is jammer!", zei Farah. "Waar kan hij zijn?"
"Ik weet het niet", zei ik.
"Hoe komt het dat hij weg is?", vroeg Farah.
"Ik weet het niet, maar ik denk dat hij in het park is. Kun je me eventjes helpen?", vroeg ik.
"Natuurlijk, ik help je graag", zei Farah. "Laten we gaan!"

En we liepen door het park. En we riepen: "Rover! Rover! Rover! Waar ben je, Rover! Roooooooooooooooooooover! Waar beeeeeeeeeen je?! O mijn Rover, waar ben je gebleven?!"
En toen vroeg ik een vrouw: "Heeft u een hond in het park gezien?"
"Wel, hoe ziet uw hond eruit?", vroeg de mevrouw.
"Hij is groot en zwart en hij heeft een rode halsband."
"Ik zag hem bij de brug", zei de mevrouw.
"Dank u wel, mevrouw", zeiden wij.

We gingen naar de brug maar er stond geen hond op de brug.
"Niet in paniek raken", zei Farah, "nog niet!
Weet je, dit park heeft TWEE bruggen..."
We gingen naar de tweede brug.

En wat we daar zagen was geen mooi gezicht.
Iemand nam onze hond mee!
Voordat we iets konden zeggen, reden ze weg.

"Wat moeten we doen?", vroeg ik Farah.
"Ik weet het niet", zei Farah
Ik begon te huilen.

Huil niet", hoorde ik ...
"Wie zei dat?", vroeg ik.
"Ik zal je hond vinden en hem redden", antwoordde de vreemdeling.
"Wie ben je?", vroeg Farah.
"Ik ben de superheld! Ze noemen mij Superheld, natuurlijk.
Maar ik ben eigenlijk een superheldin, en ik heet Harriëtte."
"Wat gaat u doen?", vroeg ik.
"Ik zal door de stad vliegen en proberen te zien waar je hond is", zei Harriëtte de superheldin.

"Wat moeten wij doen?", vroeg Farah.
"Jullie moeten naar het politiebureau gaan en vertellen wat jullie gezien hebben", zei Harriëtte.
Dus Harriëtte vloog door de stad. En wij gingen naar het politiebureau.

Er waren heel veel mensen en we moesten lang op een politieagent wachten.
Ten slotte kwam hij.

"Wat is jullie overkomen?", vroeg de flik.
"Mijn hond is gekidnapt!", zei ik.
"Je hond?", vroeg de politieagent verrast.
"Ja, we zagen iemand hem meenemen uit het park", antwoordde ik.
"Maar we waren te ver en we konden niets doen", zei Farah.
"Hmmm, dat is niet goed. Het betekent dat de bende van de gekke honden terug is in de stad. Deze week hebben we al meer van dit soort aangiftes gehad", zei de flik.
"Wat moeten we nu doen?", vroeg ik.

De politie kon ons niet helpen.
We gingen naar huis.

Toen kwam Harriëtte de superheldin door het raam naar binnen met een kleine, witte hond.
"Hier is je hond", zei ze.
"Nee. Dat is niet mijn hond!", zei ik. "Mijn hond is zwart maar die is wit. Mijn hond is ook groter dan die."
"Sorry", zei Harriëtte, "dat wist ik niet. Je had me dat niet verteld. En gedachten lezen behoort niet tot mijn gaven. Ik probeer het opnieuw."

De volgende dag stond ik op en vond een briefje op mijn raam.
Er stond op: "Hoi, ontmoet me om één uur, bij Farahs huis. We gaan de bende van de gekke honden vinden. Uw heldin, Harriëtte."

Dus om één uur ging ik naar Farah's huis. Ik zag Farah en Harriëtte in de tuin met papieren en mappen (kaarten). En we begonnen te praten over hoe we de bende van de gekke honden zouden kunnen vinden.

"Ik zal weer door de stad vliegen en proberen uit te vinden waar de bende van de gekke honden is", zei Harriëtte. "Jullie gaan naar het park en kijken weer rond."

"Dat is een fantastisch idee!", zeiden we.
"We zijn het eens!", zeiden we allemaal.

Twee uur later hadden we nog geen geluk.
Toen gebeurde er iets...

Plotseling zat het park vol met honden.
"Hé, ik heb uw hond gevonden!", schreeuwde Harriëtte.
"Wow.... dit is fantastisch!", zei Farah.

Plotseling zat het park vol met honden.
"Hé, ik heb uw hond gevonden!", schreeuwde Harriëtte.
"Wow.... dit is fantastisch!", zei Farah.

Toen vloog Harriëtte naar beneden en gaf me mijn hond. Ik was zo blij. Ik had hem heel erg gemist.

"Dank u wel, Harriëtte, maar waar komen al deze honden vandaan?", vroeg ik.
Dus Harriëtte vertelde ons het verhaal over hoe zij de 'bende van de gekke honden' had gevonden.

En op het einde had ze alle honden uit het hol van de 'Bende van de gekke honden' bevrijd.

Einde



I understood about 85% of the above when reading it. But when spoken, I only understood bits and pieces. If she spoke slower, I might have understood more, but she seemed to be speaking very fast, and my brain couldn't recognize the words and relate them, and the sentence structure to English the same way I could while reading it. But I was amazed at how much I could understand! I've only been studying Dutch for a week, and I haven't really been studying it in the traditional sense, but merely learning a few words and becoming familiar with it and its grammar.

I noticed for basic things, Dutch has become very easy to understand (in written form), while more complex subjects are still harder to understand than Romance languages for me, because Dutch uses long-compound words to express more advanced ideas, whereas English usually uses Romance words.
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
Porthos wrote:
but the Dutch "g" comes from the back of your throat, and is very gutteral

In the northern Netherlands, yes. In the southern Netherlands and in Flanders, no.


Huh, interesting. So I guess the speakers I've been listening to online come from the north of the Netherlands.

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