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Porthos

How tall are people in your country?

This could be an interesting discussion. Supposedly, the average man in America is 5'10, which is what I am, but for some reason, I feel shorter than most grown men. I heard people describe Germans and Scandanavians as being very stout and tall, so I wonder, if I am 16, and 5'10, 165 pounds, would I be small for my age in northern Europe? I'm very lean, and of average build (but somewhat ripped like most swimmers)Similarly, would I be bigger than most guys my age in southern Europe? That is, would I be taller and more robust? What do you think?

And perhaps somebody can convert my figures to the metric system.
greg in noord-frankrijk

Yep, you should try the universal system : metres, centimetres and kilogrammes. I have no idea how tall you are.
Deborah

Re: How tall are people in your country?

Porthos wrote:
And perhaps somebody can convert my figures to the metric system.

Perhaps you could convert your figures to the metric system. Just click here for online metric conversion. But here's a freebie: you're 1.778 m.
Deborah

Having lived most of my life in San Francisco and New York City, where there are lots of people from ethnic groups that have shorter average heights than the northern European stock I come from, I was always much taller than the average height for women -- or for men, for that matter. But once I went to a bar in North Carolina on a night when they were playing bluegrass, and the bar was full of Southern white guys, many of whom were over my height (6 ft/1.83 m). The women were pretty tall, too. I felt almost petite!
fab

Quote:
you're 1.778 m.


You're only 16... and you are almost 1.80m, You are tall for your age I think.
I've read taht the french average is 1.75 for men and 1.62 for women.
I am 1.71m.
Loic

I think the average male height here is 1.73 m while most girls seem to hover in the 1.60 to 1.65 m range.
Uriel

God, I hate metric.

I'm 167.64 cm. So much easier to say "five and a half feet". I think that makes me about average for a woman, but around here I'm often perceived as tall. (Deborah would have to be measured with an altimeter in NM.)

Did you know that we are one of the few larger primate species that has actually experienced a decrease in sexual dimorphism over the millennia? In many of our relatives and ancestors, female and male sizes hardly overlap at all (in one species of Australopithecus, males were routinely twice the size of females!) Yet it is not uncommon to find adult human females who are taller and more robust than adult males -- even I have been known to tower over a few men!

(Just a little trivia for you that I picked up in a class somewhere. Gotta put that degree to work somehow!)
Loic

You're actually almost as tall as I am, Uriel.

If I were to meet Deborah in real life, I think I'd be rather intimidated. I suppose I have to slink away and hide in her shadow.
Uriel

She's tall, but not intimidating. More like "statuesque".
Pauline

I'm 1,61 m. I've found a very interesting report about the differences between european countries :

Persistent variations in average height between countries and between socio-economic groups: an overview of 10 European countries. wrote:


Department of Public Health, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

RESULTS: Men and women were on average tallest in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands and shortest in France, Italy and Spain (range for men: 170-179 cm; range for women: 160-167 cm). The differences in average height between northern and southern European countries were not smaller among younger than among older birth cohorts. In most countries average height increased linearly with increasing birth-year (approximately 0.7-0.8 cm/5 years for men and approximately 0.4 cm/5 years for women).

In all countries, lower educated men and women on average were shorter than higher educated men (range of differences: 1.6-3.0 cm) and women (range of differences: 1.2-2.2 cm). In most countries, education-related height differences were not smaller among younger than among older birth cohorts.

CONCLUSIONS: The persistence of international differences in average height into the youngest birth cohorts indicates a high degree of continuity of differences between countries in childhood living conditions. Similarly, the persistence of education-related height differences indicates continuity of socio-economic differences in childhood living conditions, and also suggests that socio-economic differences in childhood living conditions will continue to contribute to socio-economic differences in health at adult ages.
Fredrik

I am 186 cm, which in Norway is tall, but nothing out of the ordinary. My brother is even taller.

Deborah, your height sounds fine to me! I always hate (being so tall) when people are so small that I have to look down to look them in the eye.
Sander

I'm 1.89 which isn't that particulary tall here. I believe 25% of the population is +185.
Loic

I suppose an average Dutchman or Norwegein would feel like Gulliver in Lilliput if he were in Singapore then.
Porthos

fab wrote:
Quote:
you're 1.778 m.


You're only 16... and you are almost 1.80m, You are tall for your age I think.
I've read taht the french average is 1.75 for men and 1.62 for women.
I am 1.71m.


You see, that's interesting. According to you, in France I would be considered tall, but here, I'm just average. Most of my friends are about 17-19 years old, and most of them are taller than me, although the ones my age are my same height. Where I live, it also depends on what part of town you are in. If you are in the white part of town, I am average height. If I go to the Hispanic side of town, I'm about 3-4 inches taller than the average full grown man. I have never been to Europe, but I am speaking from the perspective in that I lived and worked at a hotel with hundreds of European guests, so I got to see small population samples which are hopefully representative of the overall populations back in Europe. The Italian men (adult men) were about 2 inches shorter than me on average, and the younger men (20-30) were my height. The Northern Europeans on the other hand (Dutch, Danes, Norweigans, Swedes, Germans) were frequently much, much taller than me. I felt like a puny Roman standing next to a giant blond haired, blue eyed, Tueton, lol! And most of the women were only a couple of inches shorter than me. If that's how it is northern Europe these days, then maybe I should be extra careful in avoiding fist fights! They say 5'10 or roughly 178 cm is the average height of American adult men, but, to tell you the truth, it seems like most adult men are taller than me, at least white and black men, but that could just be how I feel, and not reality.

And I am of the opinion, based on just visual observation, that the Dutch and Scandanavians, are I guess you would say, the more "pure" Germanic people, as they seem to have by far, the highest rate of blond haired-blue eyed look, and huge statures. It seems like a lot of southern Germans, Englishmen, and Austrians and Swiss people seem more brunette, and shorter than the former group, possibly because although they speak Germanic languages, are in fact descended from a mix of other peoples, who were originally not Germanic speaking, as Central Europe was the heartland of the Celtic peoples, historically speaking.
Walker

Uriel wrote:
God, I hate metric.

I'm 167.64 cm. So much easier to say "five and a half feet". I think that makes me about average for a woman, but around here I'm often perceived as tall. (Deborah would have to be measured with an altimeter in NM.)


Damn, when will you leave the 19th century and adapt to the rest of the world? We don't say 167,64 centimeters, by the way. I'm 1,83 m. That's "one and eighty-three".

Pauline wrote:
In all countries, lower educated men and women on average were shorter than higher educated men (range of differences: 1.6-3.0 cm) and women (range of differences: 1.2-2.2 cm). In most countries, education-related height differences were not smaller among younger than among older birth cohorts.


You just reminded me of work. Every male medicine student you see at the hospital is tall. It's seems to be a requirement that you're like 1,90 m tall to be accepted into med. school (and also that you must not be able to write your name so that anyone can read it).
Fredrik

Porthos wrote:
It seems like a lot of southern Germans, Englishmen, and Austrians and Swiss people seem more brunette, and shorter than the former group, possibly because although they speak Germanic languages, are in fact descended from a mix of other peoples, who were originally not Germanic speaking, as Central Europe was the heartland of the Celtic peoples, historically speaking.

In pre-WW2 times they spoke of a brunette Alpine race living in and around the Alps. If you go to Tyrol, Switzerland etc. you might certainly believe that. In the lands of Wilhelm Tell around the Alps, the South Germanic pendants to the free peasant republics of the Germanic North, most people don't look blond and blue-eyed, but very brunette.
Porthos

I find there to be a sort of continum across the Alpine region of Europe. Even in northern France, the people look a lot like Austrians and Swiss.
Pauline

Walker wrote:
You just reminded me of work. Every male medicine student you see at the hospital is tall. It's seems to be a requirement that you're like 1,90 m tall to be accepted into med. school (and also that you must not be able to write your name so that anyone can read it).


Are you a doctor ?

I want to be a doctor, but then I must get much taller !!!! I can write my name completely illegible without effort, so maybe it will be ok.
Joanne

Deborah wrote:
Having lived most of my life in San Francisco and New York City, where there are lots of people from ethnic groups that have shorter average heights than the northern European stock I come from, I was always much taller than the average height for women -- or for men, for that matter.

The average American woman is actually quite short at 5'4.5", last I heard. (That's 1.638 m to you metricians ) I'm two inches over that.

Walker wrote:
Uriel wrote:
God, I hate metric.
I'm 167.64 cm. So much easier to say "five and a half feet". I think that makes me about average for a woman, but around here I'm often perceived as tall. (Deborah would have to be measured with an altimeter in NM.)

Damn, when will you leave the 19th century and adapt to the rest of the world? We don't say 167,64 centimeters, by the way. I'm 1,83 m. That's "one and eighty-three".

Why does the world care what we use in everyday life? In the fields of medicine and all the other sciences, we use the metric system. Just ask these guys.
fab

Quote:
God, I hate metric.
I'm 167.64 cm. So much easier to say "five and a half feet".


Uriel

Nobody says 167.64cm... 0.64cm is so little! You'll just say you're 1,67 meters (un metre soixante-sept), that's not so long and that's precise.

Using metric system assure you to be understood by 90% of the population on earth. and is very easy since 1meter is 100 centimeters...
Porthos

She doesn't like it Fab because we don't use it, and she is not used to it, thus making it a burden on her. You would feel the same way if someone tried to ram our system down your throat, lol.
Deborah

Don't worry, loic, as Uriel said, I'm not intimidating. Small animals flock to me! (Thanks for the "statuesque", Uriel -- it sounds much better than "large", which is how I think of myself these days.)

Walker, Fredrik, Sander -- my soulmates, as far as size is concerned. The husband of one of my best friends when I lived in NY (which has lots of short people) was 6'4"/1.93 m. Once the three of us were supposed to meet somewhere where there was a large crowd. He and I spotted each other immediately (which prompted him to say, "God, I love tall people!") but his wife had to find us, since she was only 5'2"/1.57 m.

I don't mind going metric, but I'd rather keep the decimal point rather than the decimal comma.
Joanne

Walker wrote:
You just reminded me of work. Every male medicine student you see at the hospital is tall. It's seems to be a requirement that you're like 1,90 m tall to be accepted into med. school (and also that you must not be able to write your name so that anyone can read it).
Lol! You know my stepdad's a physician, and he told me he was one of the shortest men in his class. Something about patients not listening to a doctor who didn't have an imposing presence. He made up for it, though, by having a really deep, carrying voice. Have you ever seen the movie Dodgeball? His voice sounds like Michel's. Imagine that coming out of a guy who's barely 5'9" (1.75 m) tall!
Porthos

There are also always exceptions to the general rules, and nowadays, it seems like the regional height differences are less pronounced than before. My Dad's side is northern European, but my mother's family is actually taller, and they're Hispanic!
Deborah

Walker wrote:
You know my stepdad's a physician, and he told me he was one of the shortest men in his class. Something about patients not listening to a doctor who didn't have an imposing presence.

When my brother was working as a dancer in NY, he also applied for a waiter job in a restaurant. The owner gave him a behind-the-scenes bartender job instead, because he didn't like to hire tall men as waiters -- he thought the customers would feel intimidated by them. (My brother is 6'2", or slightly shorter than Sander.)
Elaine

I'm 5'6" which, according to the conversion tool means I'm 1.68m tall. Latinos come in all shapes and sizes, but the ones who I always see chasing after buses and trains are less than 5 feet tall. Sometimes I'm surprised at how incredibly petit they can be.
André in Zuid-Afrika

Jeez, all the men here are bigger than me. Where's Damian?
Deborah

deleted by djb
André in Zuid-Afrika

Deborah wrote:
deleted by djb


I meant taller, OK?....


Deborah, I didn't see what you wrote before you deleted it, but I can guess....
Elaine

Deborah

André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Deborah wrote:
deleted by djb


I meant taller, OK?....


Deborah, I didn't see what you wrote before you deleted it, but I can guess....

You give me more credit than I deserve. In fact, I was just editing my previous post but hit quote instead of edit.
André in Zuid-Afrika

Deborah wrote:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Deborah wrote:
deleted by djb


I meant taller, OK?....


Deborah, I didn't see what you wrote before you deleted it, but I can guess....

You give me more credit than I deserve. In fact, I was just editing my previous post but hit quote instead of edit.


Ah OK!
Porthos

Dirty minds people, dirty minds.
André in Zuid-Afrika

Porthos wrote:
Dirty minds people, dirty minds.


Who, us? Why, what were you thinking?
Porthos

André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Porthos wrote:
Dirty minds people, dirty minds.


Who, us? Why, what were you thinking?


lol
Benjamin [inactive]

Well I'm about 1.76m, which is apparently about 5'10". I tend to find that I'm a bit smaller than most boys my age (17) here. I'd be about the same size as Josh, except that I'm only about 55kg, which is apparently (according to the converter) about 120 pounds.
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
Well I'm about 1.76m, which is apparently about 5'10". I tend to find that I'm a bit smaller than most boys my age (17) here. I'd be about the same size as Josh, except that I'm only about 55kg, which is apparently (according to the converter) about 120 pounds.


You see, I think that notion is just a product of our age, because only a few years ago, we were much shorter than most adults, so we are still stuck in that mindset. I find that I think I'm shorter or merely the same height as an adult person, only to see myself in the mirror standing next to them, and being a head taller. The average adult man is supposed to be 5'10 here, which is identical to Britain if I remember correctly, but I still feel like I'm shorter than most adult white/black men here. In metric system, I'm 178 cm.
fab

Josh,


Since you are very "apperearence-obsessed" about Europe, this map about hair color may interest you (I'm not sure about the scientific serious of the study, since we don't know who made it and how), but at first sight it seem quite realistic :






comes from : http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Frost_06.html
Porthos

I'm sorry but that map is whack. It looks like some giant blob. I can't even tell that it is Europe.
Porthos

What color are your eyes on that chart? My eyes are like the second pair on the bottom row. My mother's are like mine, and my father's are like the second blue pair on the top row.
Pauline

My eyes are very similar with the one in the centre picture.My parents' eyes are similar with the centre one of the final row, or maybe the left of the final row -it's difficult to exactly know.

The map on my computer is easy and clear to see, so Josh, I think it can be possibly the fault of your computer ?
Benjamin [inactive]

My eyes are most like the one in the bottom left.
Porthos

Yeah, that's what most white Americans have. My eyes are darker brown than most European-Americans, because most of them are of northern-Eu. origin. I have really dark eyes, which contrast with light skin. In a way I like it, but sometimes I think it looks like it doesn't match.

Pauline, do you mean the green row?
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
Well I'm about 1.76m, which is apparently about 5'10". I tend to find that I'm a bit smaller than most boys my age (17) here. I'd be about the same size as Josh, except that I'm only about 55kg, which is apparently (according to the converter) about 120 pounds.


I don't think 120 pounds sounds right. If you're as tall as me, and I weigh 164 (not fat), then I don't think you can weigh only 120 lbs. I mean, it's not as if I'm like really big boned or anything to account for the huge difference.
Pauline

Porthos wrote:

Pauline, do you mean the green row?


yes, my eyes are green and have also a little bit brown outside the pupil ;very similar with the centre picture
Porthos

I love green eyes. Especially with olive skin. Yum!
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
I don't think 120 pounds sounds right. If you're as tall as me, and I weigh 164 (not fat), then I don't think you can weigh only 120 lbs. I mean, it's not as if I'm like really big boned or anything to account for the huge difference.

Try it:
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/weight_conversion.php

I'm 55kg, which comes out as 121.5 pounds. Seriously, I'm not very heavy.
Porthos

It says that 164 lbs = 74.30 kilos.

You must be very skinny then Ben. Are you eating at least 2500 calories per day? I eat 3000 per day, but I exercise a lot.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
You must be very skinny then Ben.

I am. And I've actually lost some weight recently, although unintentionally.

Quote:
Are you eating at least 2500 calories per day?

I have absolutely no idea, but I entirely doubt it.
Deborah

Pauline wrote:
Porthos wrote:

Pauline, do you mean the green row?


yes, my eyes are green and have also a little bit brown outside the pupil ;very similar with the centre picture

I don't seem to be able to find a link to whatever chart you're talking about.
Uriel

Me either.

Give up the 19th Century, Walker? Why, next you'll be asking me to give up my bonnet, and my horse and buggy....

Hey, I thought Europeans were all about honoring tradition, and cherishing those links with the past!
Pauline

Deborah wrote:
Pauline wrote:
Porthos wrote:

Pauline, do you mean the green row?


yes, my eyes are green and have also a little bit brown outside the pupil ;very similar with the centre picture

I don't seem to be able to find a link to whatever chart you're talking about.



it's here :

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Frost_06.html

first, you will see the map, and after you will see the eye colours chart.
Walker

Pauline wrote:
Are you a doctor ?

I want to be a doctor, but then I must get much taller !!!! I can write my name completely illegible without effort, so maybe it will be ok.


No, no, I'm just a drone. I work at a hospital laboratory. It's a University Hospital so I get to see relatively many young people there, some of which are med. students; most people working in health care are 50+.

Joane wrote:
Why does the world care what we use in everyday life? In the fields of medicine and all the other sciences, we use the metric system. Just ask these guys.


Because everyday life is life and that's what matters to most of us. Wouldn't it be convenient if everybody used the same system?

Joanne wrote:
Lol! You know my stepdad's a physician, and he told me he was one of the shortest men in his class. Something about patients not listening to a doctor who didn't have an imposing presence. He made up for it, though, by having a really deep, carrying voice. Have you ever seen the movie Dodgeball? His voice sounds like Michel's. Imagine that coming out of a guy who's barely 5'9" (1.75 m) tall!


I have seen Dodgeball but I can't recall that character at the moment. Although, I can easily imagine you...

*phone ringing*

- Joanne speaking.

- I am... sssccchhhh... your father... cccchhhhh...

That thing about imposing presence is probably very true! As far as male doctors are concerned, that is.

Uriel wrote:
Me either.

Give up the 19th Century, Walker? Why, next you'll be asking me to give up my bonnet, and my horse and buggy....

Hey, I thought Europeans were all about honoring tradition, and cherishing those links with the past!


Yes, but certain practical things you have to give up. My grandparents have this scale on their wall that says what the metric correspondence of this and that is. It's pretty cool to look at although it seems primitive. Take fathom for example, in Swedish it's called famn which also means "embrace". A fathom may be a certain length, but embrace? And foot (fot)? Just seems a bit outdated. We still use the length unit inch (tum) in certain areas, though.
David

The average for U.S. men is around 5 ft 11 inches, and for women around 5 ft 4 inches.
Loic

And do you conform to the average, David?
Porthos

See, everything I read says the average American male is 5'10, not 5'11. But as I said, I always feel like I'm a tad shorter than adult males. Black and White adult males that is. The Asians and Latinos are about 5'8.
fab

Quote:
I'm sorry but that map is whack. It looks like some giant blob. I can't even tell that it is Europe.


Really ?? The map seem very viewable to me.

Maybe with a quik photoshop colorisation it would be clearer.


Joanne

Deborah wrote:
When my brother was working as a dancer in NY, he also applied for a waiter job in a restaurant. The owner gave him a behind-the-scenes bartender job instead, because he didn't like to hire tall men as waiters -- he thought the customers would feel intimidated by them. (My brother is 6'2", or slightly shorter than Sander.)

I guess a lot of owners felt that way too. Have you noticed that many waiters stoop or kneel next to customers when they take food orders now? I preferred it when they stood upright. It's weird having waiters practically giving your ear a tongue bath while they're telling you the chef's special.
Porthos

fab wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry but that map is whack. It looks like some giant blob. I can't even tell that it is Europe.


Really ?? The map seem very viewable to me.

Maybe with a quik photoshop colorisation it would be clearer.




You see the problem with this chart is that it does not define what "light" hair is. Is light hair only blond hair, or simply a lighter shade of brown? Or is it only blond and red hair? I have brown hair, but compared to most Sicilians, you might say I have light hair. And then the groups allow for such huge margins. 1-19%??? The reader is left wondering if the region is much closer to 1% or 19%. Since you're an expert at googling, perhaps you can find something similar, but more precise.
Porthos

I've been told by some that I speak about physical appearance far too much, to the point of being obsessed, according to some of you. But the problem is, I can ask questions of others on so called "anthropology" forums because they are really just the dwelling places of racist bigots, or white supremacists, or "mediterranean" or "nordic" supremacists, who only promote division and ethnic hatred. I like to talk about our regional physical traits and ancestry without resorting to such an idiotic mentality, which is quite frankly, very barbaric and ignorant.
fab

Quote:
You see the problem with this chart is that it does not define what "light" hair is.



I deeply agree, this is the reaction I expected from you.
This is the whole problem of the "ethnic" categories is that there is no objective creiterium to define to which category a person or a population should be put in. Where is the limit of "black" or "white", what from which hair color you consider somebody to be "mediterranean" or "nordic"...
If you add other characteristics you can imagine how much difficult it will be, and the number of combinations possible with all the nuances imaginable !
Not even saying that expecting a whole population to have the same features is close to 0 chances...

And not forgetting that hair color or skin color evoluate during the seasons and the age...

All we can get is a general impression, that, globally, more you are in countries that have been in strong contact with the mediterranean area, more the average of the people seem darker... more or less, with the accidents of history and migrations, etc...
Porthos

I agree. There is no pure 'uniform' look which distinguishes southern Europeans from northern Europeans. You will find many stereotypical "nordic" looking people in southern Europe. But in *general*, differences do remain, and people in Sicily or Sardinia stand in stark contrast to people from Sweden. If you were to take a crowd of one hundred people from off the streets of Palermo, and the same from Oslo, you will find that the people as a whole, look very different.

So do you have any of those other charts about the frequency of light hair, which is more specific or precise than the one you provided? I look for things like that on the web, but I'm afraid I'm not as good at finding them as you are.
fab

No, I didn't find nothing. I think on this subject most of the time you fall on far-right politized sites mostly.
fab

Oups, looking in my map library (I have thousands of maps) I just found these. I'm not able to say from which sources they are from, so... It has not much scientific value, I think it was a survey for a shampoo company .


Light and blond hair (not very precise!) :




Black hair :




Black + Brown hair :

Porthos

Um, I don't know how accurate those last ones were, but they were certainly more educational than the previous one. 15% of Germans having black hair sounds like an outrageous figure if you ask me.
Deborah

Porthos wrote:
Um, I don't know how accurate those last ones were, but they were certainly more educational than the previous one. 15% of Germans having black hair sounds like an outrageous figure if you ask me.

Do you mean it sounds too low?
fab

Quote:
Um, I don't know how accurate those last ones were, but they were certainly more educational than the previous one. 15% of Germans having black hair sounds like an outrageous figure if you ask me.



As a European, I tend to think that those numbers doesn't shock me, and seem to be quite realistic, even if it is hard to define objectively what does mean "light hair".

15% of German having black hair seems very realistic, don't forget that a lot of Germans are of Turquish or jewish origins.
Porthos

Black hair is like Fab's color, or darker. Now unless the Turkish population amounts to more than 10% of the population, I don't see how that is a realistic number.
Porthos

And then, you always hear people talking about Britain having far more dark haired people than Germany, and yet, according to this map, there are more dark haired people in Germany then there are in England! So something's wrong.
Deborah

But there are also non-Mediterranean, non-Jewish Germans who have very dark hair.
Porthos

Deborah wrote:
But there are also non-Mediterranean, non-Jewish Germans who have very dark hair.


But that is not very common. Only a very small minority of Germans have black hair. 15% figure is much too high I would presume. If black hair just means dark brown, then perhaps, non-mediterranean, non-Jewish Germans might have a 5-10% frequency of dark brown hair. But if black hair means Fab's color, or darker, then I would say only a very small percentage of Germans have that color. Most Germans have light to medium brown hair, while there is a large minority of blond haired people, along with some red heads. Compare that to a place like Argentina, where most people have dark brown or black hair.
fab

Quote:
And then, you always hear people talking about Britain having far more dark haired people than Germany, and yet, according to this map, there are more dark haired people in Germany then there are in England! So something's wrong.



Actually I never had heard (other than by you) that English people would be more dark-haired than German. At least it is not what I observed there.

Germany being more southern than England, I find it not surprising that there would be more dark-haired people.

Don't you remember a German guy called Hitler ? Wasn't he brown-haired ?



Quote:
Black hair is like Fab's color


No, actually I have brown hair; not black.





Quote:
Now unless the Turkish population amounts to more than 10% of the population, I don't see how that is a realistic number.


It is not necessary about turkish population, but German people with Turquish, Greek, Italian, African, Chinese, or mixed origins...

As deborah say, they is surely also some long-rooted Germans with black hair.
fab

Quote:
Only a very small minority of Germans have black hair. 15% figure is much too high I would presume


How do you know this ? have you been in Germany ?



On the other side, 66% of them would have light hair, that is to say it is more than in UK, where the number would be a bit less, 62%.
Maybe the difference of perception you have heard come from there.
greg in noord-frankrijk

Porthos wrote:
Deborah wrote:
But there are also non-Mediterranean, non-Jewish Germans who have very dark hair.


But that is not very common. Only a very small minority of Germans have black hair. 15% figure is much too high I would presume. If black hair just means dark brown, then perhaps, non-mediterranean, non-Jewish Germans might have a 5-10% frequency of dark brown hair. But if black hair means Fab's color, or darker, then I would say only a very small percentage of Germans have that color. Most Germans have light to medium brown hair, while there is a large minority of blond haired people, along with some red heads. Compare that to a place like Argentina, where most people have dark brown or black hair.


I've been to Southern Germany and my impression was that black-haired people make up for more than 10 % of the local population. In a city like Muinch, 30 % wouldn't strike me as overestimated.
Porthos

fab wrote:
Quote:
And then, you always hear people talking about Britain having far more dark haired people than Germany, and yet, according to this map, there are more dark haired people in Germany then there are in England! So something's wrong.



Actually I never had heard (other than by you) that English people would be more dark-haired than German. At least it is not what I observed there.

Germany being more southern than England, I find it not surprising that there would be more dark-haired people.

Don't you remember a German guy called Hitler ? Wasn't he brown-haired ?



Quote:
Black hair is like Fab's color


No, actually I have brown hair; not black.





Quote:
Now unless the Turkish population amounts to more than 10% of the population, I don't see how that is a realistic number.


It is not necessary about turkish population, but German people with Turquish, Greek, Italian, African, Chinese, or mixed origins...

As deborah say, they is surely also some long-rooted Germans with black hair.


See, Fab, unless your picture has very poor lighting, many would call your hair "black", as there is no trace of blond in your hair or anything else which would lighten it. Your hair is darker than my mother's, and she has dark brown hair. If your hair is defined as brown, then I find it hard to imagine that 15% of Germans have "black" hair. To me, "brown hair" looks like this girl:

Or this boy:


My hair color is similar to the above two pictures.

This is reddish-brown, which is one of the most common colors in my extended family:


This is pure red hair. In English we would say, "carrot-red hair":


This is blond hair:




Dirty blond - light brown (both would be considered light hair)


Black hair:




I think of most southern Germans, Austrians, and Swiss as having mainly light brown to medium brown hair, with a sizeable, but small minority of blondes, while north Germany, the Netherlands, and Scandanavia has a very large minority of blondes, and a much smaller percentage of people with medium to dark brown hair.
fab

I tend to think that in the numberof 20% of black haired people in France, a big part of them would have some extra-European origins.
Since we have 10% of our population being from North African origins, and most of them have black hair. Black people and Asians-typed too.

Most people here are of a very diverse shades of brown-hair. The limit with "light" hair is not easily defined and change during the seasons.

In summer I have some blondish tendencies in my brown hair. My hair is definitively not black.
Uriel

Well, I have been to England, France, and Germany, and I would say that they have about the same proportion of light to dark hair as ordinary American caucasians. I noticed no unusual preponderance of blondes or redheads, and no lack of dark brunettes. Plenty of people had very dark hair.

Look at British actors Vinnie Jones:



and Nick Frost (on the left):

Porthos

fab wrote:
I tend to think that in the numberof 20% of black haired people in France, a big part of them would have some extra-European origins.
Since we have 10% of our population being from North African origins, and most of them have black hair. Black people and Asians-typed too.

Most people here are of a very diverse shades of brown-hair. The limit with "light" hair is not easily defined and change during the seasons.

In summer I have some blondish tendencies in my brown hair. My hair is definitively not black.


Well, your hair looks very dark in your picture. I am the same way. In the winter time, my brown hair becomes close to dark brown, while in the summer, I have tons of natural blond and red highlights in my hair, which really serves to lighten it during the summer months.
fab

Uriel wrote:
Well, I have been to England, France, and Germany, and I would say that they have about the same proportion of light to dark hair as ordinary American caucasians. I noticed no unusual preponderance of blondes or redheads, and no lack of dark brunettes. Plenty of people had very dark hair.

and Nick Frost (on the left):





Seing those two person, the left one have the average apperance of 70% of French population. The guy on the right would be expected to be English or German (or another), since the very blond type is quite rare here (less than 10% I think) - excepted in some specific places along the German and Belgian borders and English channel such as Alsace, Nord-pas-de-Calais or Normandy.

Actually, in Paris you can see quite a lot of people with this kind of look, but most of them are tourists. You can see quite a lot of blond women, but a great majority are bleached.
Porthos

Uriel wrote:
Well, I have been to England, France, and Germany, and I would say that they have about the same proportion of light to dark hair as ordinary American caucasians. I noticed no unusual preponderance of blondes or redheads, and no lack of dark brunettes. Plenty of people had very dark hair.

Look at British actors Vinnie Jones:



and Nick Frost (on the left):



Oh yes, there are quite a bit of dark haired *British* people. That is not disputed, especially in southwest England, Wales, and the highlands of Scotland. Dark hair is a typical "Celtic" trait of the British Isles. Most Irish and Welsh people have dark hair, as opposed to Dutch or Scandanavians, who have large minorities of blond hair, and light brown hair. But we were speaking of Germans, not British people. Germans, particularly in the north of Germany, are a so-called "Teutonic" people. That is, their ancestors were Germanic speaking peoples who originally came from Scandanavia, and are commonly tall, with high rates of blond hair and light eyes. That is why I found some of the figures to be a little outrageous. There must be a difference in how people define "black" hair. Because "black" hair is very dark, and is even in the minority in places like France.
Uriel

Well, I don't know what to tell you, except that I found many Germans to be dark-haired. Hell, Scandinavia is known for its blonds, but the Norwegian who used to frequent the liquor store I worked at had black hair, and the one Icelander I've met had dark brown hair. So I would suggest going to the place and looking around, and not relying so much on stereotypes -- you may be surprised.
Elaine

Quote:
America's Growing Problem
New Study Says Americans No Longer the Tallest in the World
June 19, 2007 —

It's a small world, after all... especially in America.

New research shows that Americans are coming up short, but not in terms of money or lifestyle. Our growing problem is with our height.

The study, conducted by the University of Munich and Princeton University, found that the United States had the shortest population in the industrialized world, and the reason may have to do with the way people live.

America's first president, George Washington, stood a commanding 6-foot-2. In Washington's day, our country's residents were the tallest in the world.

"It's well known that the Americans held the title for 200 years," said University of Munich professor John Komlos. "Ever since the colonial times, the Americans were the tallest."

Today the Netherlands towers above the rest of the world as the tallest country, with an average height of 6-foot 1, without the wooden shoes. In 1850, Americans were two inches taller than the Dutch.

In Denmark, men average 6 feet in height, a couple of inches taller than the American male average of 5-foot-10.

American men aren't responding well to their shrinking stature. "There is no way I want the Dutch towering over the United States of America," said one 6-foot-3 man.

Komlos said height revealed a lot about a country's well-being, including how long its citizens lived and how healthy they were. Researchers said that one reason for Denmark's high ranking could be that the Danish health-care system provides better care to children when they are young, the time of life when most growing takes place.

Another reason for our lag might be the American diet, which is filled with fast food. Overeating can cause kids to produce too many growth hormones too early, which halts growth at a younger age.

Outside a Manhattan McDonald's, young Jacob said the news would make him think twice about going to the Netherlands or Denmark.

"If men here are getting shorter, then I need to move to Denmark," one 5-foot-9 woman said.

Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures


I suspect a big part of it has to do with the people who've been immigrating to this country in huge numbers over the last 15 years, namely Mesoamericans and Asians, who tend to be shorter than the average Caucasian or African American. I cannot tell you how many Mesoamerican males I see in this city who come up to less than 5 ft. At 5'6", I feel like Amazon Queen!
Irrintzi

I'm approximatly 1,82 m.

The Basque depending the regions are tall or short, for example the Souletin's stereotype is a short-man compared to Labourdins who are tall, the hair color is different too, the Navarrese are dark-brown with brown eyes, hairy and thickset, the Souletins are blonds or chesnut brown blue or green eyes, and thickset too.
Elaine

Sorry guys! I thought I could merge threads to avoid redundancy. But apparently, this site doesn't give me that option, and I couldn't move posts into pre-existing threads either (only to forum folders and subforums) And to top it off, I couldn't undo what I already started, so alas, I'm forced to repost the messages in this unruly fashion. Please forgive me for screwing this up royally.

The following are responses to my post above.
___________________________________

Joanne, Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:36 pm:

Yes, you're right. I live in an area that's mostly comprised of Asians, and hardly anyone is over 5'9" (1.75 m). Even in the city I hardly ever have to look way up at anyone, especially if I wear heels!

An exception, though. I've noticed that Japanese men and women in general are quite a bit taller than other Asians. I wonder why that is? It probably has something to do with changing diets in Japan due to globalization...

___________________________________

Elaine, Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:02 pm:

I work around the Civic Center-Little Tokyo area and I do see a lot of tall Japanese tourists.

Most of the young ones have rust-colored hair and the girls all look like they stepped out of the Sailor Moon cartoons-- fashions that I personally find ridiculous.

____________________________________

Joanne, Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:36 pm:

Elaine wrote:
Most of the young ones have rust-colored hair and the girls all look like they stepped out of the Sailor Moon cartoons-- fashions that I personally find ridiculous.


They probably toned down because they were in America! I was in Tokyo a few years ago, and I swear, it's like stepping into a parallel dimension, in some ways. Most dressed they way we do here (well, maybe better), but they really can go way out when it comes to their fashions. I saw groups of girls dressed in full on Victorian gowns (except the hems were a few inches off the ground), complete with bustles, corsets, pelisses, and day bonnets. They were walking around next to similarly modified empire-waisted Elizabeth Bennets, and various Rainbow Brite characters. I shit you not. It was great, though, to see people so un-self-conscious, and just having fun with clothes.

____________________________________

Porthos, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:43 am:

Quote:
I suspect a big part of it has to do with the people who've been immigrating to this country in huge numbers over the last 15 years, namely Mesoamericans and Asians, who tend to be shorter than the average Caucasian or African American.


That article and newsclip which it came from specifically said that it had nothing to do with America's changing ethnic composition. What's the basis for such a claim??? If an increasinly large portion of the population is comprised of Mesoamericans and east Asians, do the math and you'll find our height averages shrinking. The PC Nazis refuse to acknowledge this, and they even dismiss it as a possibility.

They should give more consideration to the ethnic factor however. Despite the self-reported ethnic statistics, I would still wager that the largest ethnic group among Whites in this country is "British", ie. - from the British Isles. A quick glance at the height stats in Britain will reveal that the average British male is 5'10, identical to the American average. The reason Dutch people and Scandanavians are so tall is largely because of their ethnicity. They're the commonly tall, blond, blue eyed, "Nordic" type.

The more Asians and Latin Americans that come to this country, the lower our average height is going to be.

____________________________________

Walker, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:29 pm:

Joanne wrote:
Elaine wrote:
Most of the young ones have rust-colored hair and the girls all look like they stepped out of the Sailor Moon cartoons-- fashions that I personally find ridiculous.

They probably toned down because they were in America! I was in Tokyo a few years ago, and I swear, it's like stepping into a parallel dimension, in some ways. Most dressed they way we do here (well, maybe better), but they really can go way out when it comes to their fashions. I saw groups of girls dressed in full on Victorian gowns (except the hems were a few inches off the ground), complete with bustles, corsets, pelisses, and day bonnets. They were walking around next to similarly modified empire-waisted Elizabeth Bennets, and various Rainbow Brite characters. I shit you not. It was great, though, to see people so un-self-conscious, and just having fun with clothes.


Did you talk to any of those people? Have you any idea which social class they might've belonged to?

Japan seems fascinating. They've copied much of Western culture, so much in fact that it seems almost perverse, and yet they keep their own traditions and customs. Maybe I should start a band and head for Japan! Seriously though, I'd like to go there sometime. If I could take it, that is. The tomboy at work I was talking about went there with a friend, and when she told us about it she compared the noise when they'd walked into shops to that of a chicken yard. People had been nice but sometimes they'd been a bit too nice.

__________________________________

Loic, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:18 pm:

I just feel that the Japanese are scrupulously polite. I remembered taking their bullet train and being very self-conscious as there was dirt underneath my nails and I looked like a vangabond in a compartment where all the men were probably dressed in bespoked tailoring. A woman entered the compartment to sell us refreshments and what impressed me greatly was the way she bowed at all of us when she entered before doing the same as she left.

I was blown off my feet. Everywhere I went, the standard of service was excellent. If there was a downside, it was their presumption that they can make you understand their Japanese by slowing down their speech. Otherwise, I must say that the Japanese retail industry opened my horizons as far as service is concerned.

Did I say that almost every girl there wears a dress or a skirt, even in winter? Maybe it has changed, but I didn't see anyone in jeans while I was walking down Ginza.

For all their good manners, their cities are ugly. Tokyo is a congested warren with badly planned streets and characterless skyscrappers. Living in Tokyo or Osaka would be a nightmare for anyone suffering from claustrophobia. I know I was feeling a bit under the weather with the seething mass of humanity all around me.

_____________________________________

Joanne, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:38 pm:

Walker wrote:
Did you talk to any of those people? Have you any idea which social class they might've belonged to?

I'm pretty sure they were high school (the Japanese equivalent of it) students, although I didn't tap them on the shoulder to interrupt their shopping experience and ask them how old they were, how prestigious the school they attended was, what social class their family was in, and how long they had been in that class Unfortunately, I don't speak a syllable of Japanese...otherwise, I totally would have been the Ugly American and asked them!
Walker wrote:
Maybe I should start a band and head for Japan! Seriously though, I'd like to go there sometime. If I could take it, that is.

Dude...white guy in Japan? I'd hate to perpetuate a stereotype here, but you'd have to beat the ladies off with a stick, rock star!
loic wrote:
Living in Tokyo or Osaka would be a nightmare for anyone suffering from claustrophobia. I know I was feeling a bit under the weather with the seething mass of humanity all around me.

After weeks in rural New Zealand, I was starting to feel a little stir crazy, so the crowds and noise of Tokyo were a welcome change for me. It was invigorating

_____________________________________

Porthos, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:13 pm:

Quote:
Dude...white guy in Japan? I'd hate to perpetuate a stereotype here, but you'd have to beat the ladies off with a stick, rock star!


Yes, they'd probably be very anxious to see your yang.

______________________________________

Walker, Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:55 pm:

Joane wrote:
Walker wrote:
Maybe I should start a band and head for Japan! Seriously though, I'd like to go there sometime. If I could take it, that is.

Dude...white guy in Japan? I'd hate to perpetuate a stereotype here, but you'd have to beat the ladies off with a stick, rock star!


Yes, I know!

Porthos wrote:
...they'd probably be very anxious to see your yang.


And I'd be anxious to... uhm, this is the news thread, right? Ahum, right!

fab

some sources about how tall are europeans





Uriel

I do remember Japanese girls wearing the most ridiculous things. Knee socks and bun covers were all the rage when I was there. As was dyeing hair orange or yellow or getting really ugly perms (for men!). Heinous. I think Hirajuku was where they liked to show off how bizare they could get.

The other thing was their love of mangled written English. Once in a while you might see French, but mostly it was English. They liked to plaster words, phrases, and even long run-on sentences all over shirts, handbags, and other items, and reading those things would drive you to distraction, because they were often so tortured in grammar and vocabulary that they made no sense at all! But they didn't seem to care. I suppose much of that was simply a verbatim translation of how they would have expressed the same ideas in Japanese -- and if so, it shows just how different Japanese syntax must be!


Uh, say what?
Rio

We have quite a few Japanese exchange students and to say that the fashions are bizaare is a bit of an understatement. Most the guys at the moment have David Sylvian haircuts and wear ultra-ultra-skinny leg with cowboy boots, with colours mismatched.

As for height, I'm 172 cm which translates just under 5'8. I think the average Australian woman is 5'4, man 5'10.

I was very surprised to see how tall those young Singaporeans are. The Dutch are enormous, I felt like a dwaft and soooooo blonde.
Rio

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height
Loic

Quote:
I was very surprised to see how tall those young Singaporeans are. The Dutch are enormous, I felt like a dwaft and soooooo blonde.


Singaporeans? Which part of Oz are you from?
Rio

Loic wrote:
Quote:
I was very surprised to see how tall those young Singaporeans are. The Dutch are enormous, I felt like a dwaft and soooooo blonde.


Singaporeans? Which part of Oz are you from?


Yes, I got stuck on a peak-hour train last year and the young ones (early 20s) were all  at least 5'11. I'm just a vagrant...
Tiffany

I'm short.  157 cm only.
Deborah

I used to be about 183 cm; now I'm only about 181 cm.
André in Zuid-Afrika

Deborah wrote:
I used to be about 183 cm; now I'm only about 181 cm.


You shrunk? But still you're taller than me...
Loic

That's true. Deborah would still be a commanding presence. It's not very common for a woman to be above 1.80 m.
fab

Deborah, with my 1m71 I would feel like a dwarf...
Deborah

It's not that there's anything wrong with being short -- like 181 cm   -- it's the shrinkage that bothers me and prompted me to get a bone density study.  I finally got the result today.  Yes, my spine shows a bit of bone loss, but only as much as is normal for my age (I hate that expression!).  It's still considered healthy and I'm far from having osteoporosis.  So as long as I keep taking my calcium and get more exercise, I should be OK.
Didier69

Uriel wrote:
Well, I don't know what to tell you, except that I found many Germans to be dark-haired.  Hell, Scandinavia is known for its blonds, but the Norwegian who used to frequent the liquor store I worked at had black hair, and the one Icelander I've met had dark brown hair.  So I would suggest going to the place and looking around, and not relying so much on stereotypes -- you may be surprised.


That's true there are some people for example here where I live who have stereotype about the fact that all Germans and Scandinavians would be blond. They would be surprised to see that they are more dark-haired Germans than they thought mainly in Southern Germany. But I noticed something which is not really a cliché. When I was spending a month in Stockholm. I nevertheless saw a higher percent of very blonde people than dark-haired ones.

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