If it weren't for the Saxons, what language would we be....
........speaking on this forum today? If the Anglo-Saxons had not arrived in Britain, and came, saw, and conquered, then what language would we be speaking today, assuming all else continued on the same, and Britain formed a global empire, bore the United States, and gave way to English as the lingua franca of the world?
We would either be speaking Welsh or some Norse language. That's what I think anyway. Now wouldn't that be interesting....
Fredrik
LOL, I've never thought of it like that: That the Vikings might still have come even if the Anglo-Saxons weren't there! And made a creole Norse language through contact with the Celtic Britons! With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
Það vöru special tunga, mikill eccentrisk!
Benjamin [inactive]
Fredrik wrote:
With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
I actually wonder to what extent the Romance influence on English is actually the result of the Normans, because if you read Chaucer (Canterbury Tales and all that), you'll notice that there are very few Greco-Latinate words — and Chaucer was essentially an upper-class English person writing in the 14th century (at least 300 years after the Norman invasion) who would have been able to speak French anyway.
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
Kind of like how if you look at SkyBlog profiles (basically a French language equivalent to MySpace/Bebo/Facebook/etc.), you'll notice that people often write things like this:
C'est un photo de ma team de hokey. Notre look est super cool et je suis la leader du club !
Uriel
Perhaps we would be getting frisky with Frysk. Like a drunken fishwife!
Loic
Quote:
C'est un photo de ma team de hokey. Notre look est super cool et je suis la leader du club !
If it is so, it must be a really extreme example of franglais in action. I don't think most French speakers, even teenagers, write or speak like that. Or at least those whom I have interacted with.
Unless the writer of the aforementioned sentence is a French-Canadian. Now, that might be possible.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Benjamin wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
With some heavy Romance influences from the Normans, if they also still did come.
I actually wonder to what extent the Romance influence on English is actually the result of the Normans, because if you read Chaucer (Canterbury Tales and all that), you'll notice that there are very few Greco-Latinate words — and Chaucer was essentially an upper-class English person writing in the 14th century (at least 300 years after the Norman invasion) who would have been able to speak French anyway.
Chaucer was a Francophone indeed and he could write poetry in French. His works in English are not that insurmountable for a native French-speaker to understand, at least not more difficult than would be for an Anglophone layman.
Voyez plutôt :
Ther was also a nonne, a prioresse,
That of hir smylyng was ful symple and coy ;
Hire gretteste ooth was but by Seinte Loy ;
And she was cleped Madame Eglentyne.
Ful weel she soong the service dyvyne,
Entuned in hir nose ful semely,
And frenssh she spak ful faire and fetisly,
After the scole of Stratford atte Bowe,
For Frenssh of Parys was to hire unknowe.
Et il y avait cette nonne, prieure de sa qualité,
Au sourire tout empli de douceur et d'effacement ;
« Par saint Éloi ! » était son plus grand jurement ;
Dame Églantine, car tel était son nom,
Chantait le service divin à la perfection,
Qu'elle entonnait comme il sied, à savoir par le nez,
Voilà, sans contredit, un français des plus parfaits —
Selon les canons de l'école de Stratford-atte-Bow,
Car du français de Paris elle ignorait le moindre mot.
Benjamin wrote:
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
It is true that the influx of French words into English — that started before 1066 and is by no means attributable to "the Normans" exclusively — can be categorised according to whether their entry predates or posdates the 17th century. However, massive quantities were injected anytime between the 14th & 15th centuries — that is when literacy became more widespread among the people and when English started to gain some literary status in the British isles. Since French and Latin had eclipsed English in writing before the era of Anglicisation, it is all too understandable that lexical Francomania had been consubstantial with the renaissance of written English well before the 17th century.
Porthos
People overlook the importance of French derived vocabulary in the English language.
How would a child say he needs to ask a "question"? How would we "excuse" ourselves? We couldn't say "Pardon me", and nor could we say "please" in order to be polite.
In an old Frisian vs. English comparison on antimoon, there was a myriad of words which us as English speakers could not understand, as the Germanic cognates between Frisian and English had since been discontinued in our language, and replaced with words like "honor" and "glory".
There are several words and phrases which we use in English that still, to a large degree, preserves the French pronounciation and spelling, like "bon voyage", "nom de plume", "concierge", "rendezvous", "deja vu", etc. These words were obviously introduced much more recently, during the Francophile craze of the 17th-19th centuries.
But there are a tremendous amount of words which we use of French origin on a frequent basis, which are "Anglicized" in pronounciation, and usually to some extent in orthography as well. Some examples include diverse words such as "appetite", "army" "arms" (guns), "surmount", and hundreds of thousands of others.
Even so, English was influenced by French in yet another facet, and that is its orthography. While other Germanic languages corrupt the spelling of French words by such acts as replacing "c"s with 'k's, English does not.
But back to the original topic of this thread. Had the Anglo-Saxons not come, what would have become of Britain? There is no doubt that the Vikings would have still made their way to the British Isles, and the only question is what impact they would have had in the absence of the Saxons? However, possibly given enough time to prepare, unify, and became more martial in nature, the old Romano-Britons might have stood a fighting chance against successive waves of foreign invaders, like the Picts and the Norse. Under such circumstances, the Vikings might have been unable to establish their Danelaw, and could have been reduced to their typical coastal maurading as in other areas with stronger central governments.
Just imagine the Anglophone world of today speaking a language like Welsh instead of English. That would be something to see. It would make the Celtic language family a language group worth paying attention to, rather than some dying breed only actively present in the fringes of the British Isles. The United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, parts of South Africa, much of former colonial Africa and the Carribean, could all have been speaking Welsh today!
Fredrik
Datt vwld haff bin cwl!
Porthos
Fredrik wrote:
Datt vwld haff bin cwl!
Is the above an actual language, or just English made to look Scandanavian?
fab
Quote:
If it weren't for the Saxons, what language would we be....
L'histoire est un concours de circonstances dont les cause et les conséquences sont entremélées les unes avec les autres. Il est difficile de savoir comment serait le monde si les Iles Britanniques n'avait pas subi les invasions Anglo-Saxonnes... Probalement assez différent. Et il serait difficilement envisageable que le reste se soit déroulé de même manière.
Quote:
Rather, my impression is that the bulk of the Latin-derived vocabulary did not arrive until much later, in around the 17th century when it became fashionable amongst the educated élite (who could usually speak at least some French anyway) to use a lot of French words in their English speach.
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
Porthos
Quote:
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
Yes. For example, yesterday I was at an art gallery outside San Francisco. There were a few paintings featuring words written in French on the scene. When I translated what they said, everybody "oohed" and "ahhhed" at me, as if I was a refined gentleman just because I could translate some French. French is seen as the ultimate language of sophistication, culture, and romance in the U.S.
Fredrik
Porthos wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Datt vwld haff bin cwl!
Is the above an actual language, or just English made to look Scandanavian?
Just a (bad) attempt at English with Welsh ortography!
Benjamin [inactive]
Porthos wrote:
People overlook the importance of French derived vocabulary in the English language.
How would a child say he needs to ask a "question"? How would we "excuse" ourselves? We couldn't say "Pardon me", and nor could we say "please" in order to be polite.
That's right, although many of these words do have alternative 'Germanic' words in regional English dialects.
fab wrote:
I'm still be surprised to the level of fascicnation that French has (and seems to still have in the imaginary of English-Speaking peoples). Most of us are absolutly not aware than french was put on such a piedestal (such as "the language of culture", "elite/high class language", etc. as it seems to be in UK, and by extension in the US for what it seems in conversation in Langcafé.
We never would find our language to express this kind of imaginary - for it is just our everyday and everybody's language - nothing elitist in it.
Likewise, if you want to sound very sophisticated, you can include un-anglicised French and pseudo-French words and expressions in English. Things like raison d'être and de rigeur and la crème de la crème and pièce de résistance etc.
It's not only amongst English speakers where French has been seen in this way though. For example, the Danish aristocracy used to believe that the Danish language was inferior. Instead, they spoke German to their servants and French to each-other, whilst Danish was reserved for the ordinary people. Thus, there was a kind of linguistic hierarchy — French was the most prestigious language, followed by German, with Danish at the bottom.
Porthos
Quote:
That's right, although many of these words do have alternative 'Germanic' words in regional English dialects.
Really? Such as what? I don't think we use any Germanic alternatives in American English, but perhaps there are some in various dialects of England.
Fredrik
Benjamin wrote:
Thus, there was a kind of linguistic hierarchy — French was the most prestigious language, followed by German, with Danish at the bottom.
With Low German between (High) German and Danish (at least in Jutland) and at the bottom Norwegian, which everybody just thought was bad Danish!
But your point is very correct, Benjamin. As a lyrical tribute to the great 18th century Danish-Norwegian author Ludvig Holberg says about his times:
Hver Mand, som med Kløgt gik i Lærdom til Bund,
Latin paa Papiret kun malte,
med Fruerne Fransk, og Tydsk med sin Hund
og Dansk med sin Tjener han talte.
=
Every man, who with cunning himself in learning immersed,
only Latin on paper did write,
with the ladies French, and German with his dog
and Danish with his servant he spoke.
Indeed Holberg, who was both a professor and a playwright, wrote a play called "Jean de France", about a Francophile Dane, Hans Frandsen, who came home from France not just with a new name (Jean de France) and refined manners, but also with a very snobby Francophile version of his native Danish. As Holberg lets the character say himself: jeg har oublieret gandske mit Dansk dans Paris = my Danish has fallen quite into oblivion dans Paris..
(Though Holberg's most famous linguistical snob is the Danish peasant boy Rasmus Berg, who comes home to his village from the university of Copenhagen as the Latinophile Erasmus Montanus and nearly looses his fiancée when he shocks the villagers with heretic claims about the earth being round!)
BTW Francomania was even more pronounced in Sweden than in Denmark (which was too heavily influenced by German to give French a fair chance.) The Swedes even walk on the trottoar!
Pauline
maybe it wouold be danish in north Britain and welsh-french mixture in the south and it would be 2 spearate countries the north part would be scandinavia and the south part would be an indpendant country not in the UE. There would be illegal immigranst attemtping cross the border at manchester for travel south. the north part would want the euro but isn't allowed and the south part is allowed but don't want. But the north part is furious because the south part put its nuclear factories at the border and the wind's blwoing the pollution to the north east and they have acid rain.
Porthos
Fredrik wrote:
Porthos wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Datt vwld haff bin cwl!
Is the above an actual language, or just English made to look Scandanavian?
Just a (bad) attempt at English with Welsh ortography!
Oh yes! I can see that now. lol
Benjamin [inactive]
Pauline wrote:
the north part would want the euro but isn't allowed and the south part is allowed but don't want. But the north part is furious because the south part put its nuclear factories at the border and the wind's blwoing the pollution to the north east and they have acid rain.
LOL — that all sounds very familiar. Yes, I'm talking about the current situation with England and Scotland, where the increasingly popular Scottish National Party want to adopt the euro and remove all the nuclear power stations and nuclear weapons from Scotland — decisions which they feel have been made for Scotland by England, without really taking Scottish interests into account. So maybe things wouldn't be so different afterall!
However, I should mention that nuclear power stations are not actually a major cause of acid rain. Instead, acid rain is mainly caused by coal/oil power stations, car exhausts etc. (I'm still strongly anti-nuclear though)
Porthos wrote:
Really? Such as what? I don't think we use any Germanic alternatives in American English, but perhaps there are some in various dialects of England.
Well, some people from some places might be more likely to say 'sorry love' or just 'I'm sorry', instead of 'pardon' or 'excuse me' — I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
Icke
Benjamin wrote:
I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
It *can* be used, but very, very rarely! Maybe some older, extravagant people use it sometimes, but the English word "sorry" is rather more popular, esp. among the youth - though not as much as the traditional 'tschuldigung or "tut mir leid" - or "dud ma leed" as I would say it in my dialect.
Benjamin [inactive]
Icke wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I almost never say 'pardon'. However, 'pardon' is actually used in German as well.
It *can* be used, but very, very rarely! Maybe some older, extravagant people use it sometimes, but the English word "sorry" is rather more popular, esp. among the youth - though not as much as the traditional 'tschuldigung or "tut mir leid" - or "dud ma leed" as I would say it in my dialect.
It's kind of the similar here — phrases like 'I beg your pardon' and 'pardon me' and 'pardon?' tend to be used mainly amongst older people.
On a sort of related note, whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
Loic
When I did a bit of self-study of the Dutch language, I learnt that the most popular way to apologise is to say 'Sorry, hoor' (the book told me to pronounce it exactly as Surrey Whore).
I think we use do a with a bit of plain speech here. Saying 'pardon' in place of 'sorry' is unnecessarily extravagent. I am also a little annoyed that people always insist on having a serviette instead of a napkin in restaurants.
I think George Orwell'd be really chuffed to hear this.
Icke
Benjamin wrote:
On a sort of related note, whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
...I bet they are a bit baffled after hearing you saying this.
You can also use the expressions 'nichts zu danken', 'kein Problem', or 'ach was', but I guess you know that already
Deborah
Icke, what is your dialect? What would "ach was" correspond to in English?
Icke
Hi Deborah,
I live in the so-called Westpfalz and therefore speak ‚Westpfälzisch‘ (or just Pälzisch) which is a Rhinefrankisch dialect.
‚Ach was‘ is an interjection of disagreement that is used in loads of different situations – literally meaning ‚Oh what‘, but the English equivalent of this phrase would propably be ‚of course not‘ or ‚not at all‘, though in English it would rather sound strange as a respond to ‚thank you‘, wouldn’t it?
Deborah
Danke, Icke.
Porthos
So, Icke, if I'm not mistaken, you speak a dialect of "Low German", since it comes from the area of the northern Rhine and the Franks, no?
Icke
Porthos wrote:
So, Icke, if I'm not mistaken, you speak a dialect of "Low German", since it comes from the area of the northern Rhine and the Franks, no?
No, "Rheinfränkisch", or Rhine Franconian isn't Low German, but a dialect of West Central German (Westmitteldeutsch) that already belongs to High German, although it didn't experienced the HGCS completely as in Upper German. That means, I still say Appel instead of Apfel, Deer instead of Tür (=door) and so on.
West Central German is spoken in this area:
The fields with number 4, 5 and 6 are the regions of the Rhine Franconian dialects. My dialect "Westpfälzisch" is spoken in the western part of the dark green area (number 5).
The numbers 1, 2 and 3 make up the Middle Franconian region, and the fields with numbers 7, 8, 9 and 10 are part of the East Central German dialects.
I will give you a sentence as an example that funnily shows some similiarities to English:
"Mei Haus is grien." (Standard German: "Mein Haus ist grün.")
Except for the uvular r it is pronounced the same way as in "My house is green."
Pennsylvania German is also a Rhine Franconian variety, by the way
Uriel
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
Benjamin [inactive]
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
Shouga
Benjamin wrote:
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
What do you mean? Do people in Birmingham never say 'you're welcome'?
greg in noord-frankrijk
Hier folgt die Verbreitungsgebiete der verschiedenen Mundarten des Deutschs :
Benjamin [inactive]
Shouga wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
What do you mean? Do people in Birmingham never say 'you're welcome'?
Not as a standard response to 'thank you', no. Most of the time when someone says 'thank you', people just say nothing here.
André in Zuid-Afrika
English speaking South Africans sometimes say "you're welcome", but more often "(my) pleasure", copied from the Afrikaans habit of saying: "(My) plesier".
Fredrik
Porthos:
Low German is only spoken north of the Benrath Line, i.e. the line between the yellow and blue areas on greg's map. It's named after the town of Benrath, which is where it crosses the Rhine. The Benrath line is the boundary between Upper and Middle German machen and Lower German maken (= to make, to do).
Together with the Uerdingen Line further north, which is the boundary between ich and ik (= I), the Benrath Line marks the northernmost spread of the Second German Consonant Shift.
Icke wrote:
Quote:
I live in the so-called Westpfalz
That's one thing I love about Germany: The division into so many distinct regions that enables one to pinpoint one's location easily and draw up a picture of a certain landscape with distinct characteristics. In that way, i.e. that you can avoid saying "I live in greater X City" or "I live in southwest X State", Germany is still appealingly pre-industrial.
Loic
I usually say 'no worries' in an airy sort of way to my social equals or inferiors, or 'you're welcome' in an earnest sort of way to my social superiors.
Porthos
Benjamin wrote:
Shouga wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
What do you mean? Do people in Birmingham never say 'you're welcome'?
Not as a standard response to 'thank you', no. Most of the time when someone says 'thank you', people just say nothing here.
Figures...... It's the cold British we're talking about.....
Shouga
Porthos wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Shouga wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
whenever someone says 'thank you' to me in English, I often automatically respond with 'bitte schön'. This is because when I was in Germany, I got used to the concept of saying 'bitte schön' routinely after 'danke schön' — I feel as though I need an 'answer' to 'thank you' in English, and because there isn't really a common English way of saying this, the German phrase often comes out automatically instead.
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
What do you mean? Do people in Birmingham never say 'you're welcome'?
Not as a standard response to 'thank you', no. Most of the time when someone says 'thank you', people just say nothing here.
Figures...... It's the cold British we're talking about.....
Actually, that's really unusual. I've never heard of a part of Britain that doesn't say 'you're welcome'. In my part of Britain, 'you're welcome' is common.
Benjamin [inactive]
Well, people here do sometimes say 'you're welcome', but only if they're wanting to seem extra specially polite. Essentially, if you're looking at them when you say 'thank you', you may receive a smile or a nod, or they may say 'buhbye'. But if you're not looking at them, for example if they're putting drinks on the table or something, you'll usually receive no response at all. I certainly would not routinely say 'you're welcome' every time someone thanked me. If they're lucky, they might get a 'right' or an 'okay', or maybe a brief smile.
Porthos
Benjamin wrote:
Well, people here do sometimes say 'you're welcome', but only if they're wanting to seem extra specially polite. Essentially, if you're looking at them when you say 'thank you', you may receive a smile or a nod, or they may say 'buhbye'. But if you're not looking at them, for example if they're putting drinks on the table or something, you'll usually receive no response at all. I certainly would not routinely say 'you're welcome' every time someone thanked me. If they're lucky, they might get a 'right' or an 'okay', or maybe a brief smile.
That would be considered rude where I come from, because it's as if you don't bother to acknowledge their gratitude with a dignified response.
Lazar
"Buhbye", "right", and "okay" don't really seem to me like suitable responses to "thank you". I usually say "you're welcome" or "no problem".
fab
I just come back from a week end in southern Germany. In Heidelberg and Frankfurt - I almost never had visited southern Germany before, and actually don't have any knowledge of German, nor real knowledge about German linguistics.
We spoke here about the different German dialects, dividing in three main ones - high/medium/low german, But which one is what we usually call "standard German". Is standard German spoken also in southern Germany or only in Berlin region ?
I must recognise my complete ignorance to the question, and I'm quite anable to make the difference when earing the southern or northern forms of German.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
I just come back from a week end in southern Germany. In Heidelberg and Frankfurt - I almost never had visited southern Germany before, and actually don't have any knowledge of German, nor real knowledge about German linguistics.
What language did you speak then? Did you find that you were able to understand some of it?
fab wrote:
We spoke here about the different German dialects, dividing in three main ones - high/medium/low german, But which one is what we usually call "standard German". Is standard German spoken also in southern Germany or only in Berlin region ?
I must recognise my complete ignorance to the question, and I'm quite anable to make the difference when earing the southern or northern forms of German.
Standard German was essentially a written language until the 1800s, when people all over the area we now know as the German-speaking world started learning it at school. It is largely based upon Central High German, although the 'purest' form of Standard German is actually said to be spoken in Hannover, because the Northern accent of Standard German became 'standard'.
Standard German is definitely not the traditional Berlin dialect. However, in many regions of Germany, there is a kind of continuum from Standard German to the local dialects — the social élite are more likely to speak Standard German, the working class people are more likely to speak their local dialect, whilst the people in the middle are likely to speak something in between. It's similar to the situation of Received Pronunciation and local dialects of English in the British Isles.
fab
Quote:
What language did you speak then? Did you find that you were able to understand some of it?
Thanks to my knowledge of English I could guess some German - Especially When I tried to pronounce it I realise it was very similar to the English equivalent.
Fortunally my girlfriend has learned a few German at school a few years ago, and could a manage a bit to say some very basic things. But most of the time we were using English, after asking if the people spoke it.
What was quite hard was on the road, I was driving, but we were not able to understand a lot of signalisation, and had difficulties to recognise the names of places on the signalisation... Too long, so similar and not enough time to read them when driving...
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
But most of the time we were using English, after asking if the people spoke it.
Did you notice that a large percentage of people who live in Heidelberg are actually Americans anyway?
fab wrote:
What was quite hard was on the road, I was driving, but we were not able to understand a lot of signalisation, and had difficulties to recognise the names of places on the signalisation... Too long, so similar and not enough time to read them when driving...
Lol yes — there are too many road-signs in Germany. And then they often have long words written underneath them, like Baustellenfahrzeuge frei, and Durchgangsverkehr, and Schleudergefahr, and Forstwirtschaftlicher Verkehr frei, and Wasserschutzgebiet. I can't drive at all though, so I wouldn't know what driving in Germany would be like.
fab
Quote:
Did you notice that a large percentage of people who live in Heidelberg are actually Americans anyway?
No, I didn't, but there were quite a lot of tourists, among them quite a lot of English people and some Asians. Almost no french.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
Did you notice that a large percentage of people who live in Heidelberg are actually Americans anyway?
No, I didn't, but there were quite a lot of tourists, among them quite a lot of English people and some Asians. Almost no french.
Heidelberg is home to a large US army base. There's a large American 'ghetto' in one of the suburbs of Heidelberg, near to Kircheim.
Uriel
We affectionately call it H-berg. There are also major American bases in Bitberg, and Karlsruhe ("K-town"), and Wurzburg (where I was born), and Rammstein ... I could go on and on!
My experience in Germany was that German shopkeepers generally could only speak very basic "sales English", although I did meet many others who spoke middling to very fluent English. It was kind of the luck of the draw, and I've forgotten all my German, even though it was my first language.
But Benjamin, I'm shocked!
Quote:
What do you mean there isn't a common answer to "thank you"? It's "you're welcome". Do they not have that in England these days?
The only people I've heard saying that were the crew on the last cruise I went on, who were mainly from Goa in India.
Saying "you're welcome" or "no problem" or "not at all" or at least something after being thanked is about as reflexive as inhaling after you exhale -- like Porthos said, a failure to acknowledge someone else's gratitude toward you would be an extreme social insult, to most people I know -- highly offensive (and you could kiss any other thank you's from that person goodbye!).
Benjamin [inactive]
I first realised that I was supposed to say 'bitte (schön)' after 'danke (schön)' in Germany on about my second day there. A man was cycling on the pavement and I moved out of the way so that he could get past. He said 'danke schön'. I said nothing. He then said 'danke schön' again, apparently thinking that I hadn't heard him. I then said 'oh ah, bitte schön'.
Didn't you say that you found that the whole gratitude thing in shops, bars and restaurants seems to work the other way around here than in the US? Like, in the US, it's the shop owner who thanks the customer and attempts to make sure that the customer is completely satisfied, whilst in England, it seemed as though it's more the customer who thanks the shop owner, who tends to behave as though they're doing the customer a favour by being there? And when I've seen Americans in restaurants and things here, I've noticed that they will usually complain if they're not completely satisfied, whilst British people tend not to.
Shouga
Quote:
Didn't you say that you found that the whole gratitude thing in shops, bars and restaurants seems to work the other way around here than in the US? Like, in the US, it's the shop owner who thanks the customer and attempts to make sure that the customer is completely satisfied, whilst in England, it seemed as though it's more the customer who thanks the shop owner, who tends to behave as though they're doing the customer a favour by being there? And when I've seen Americans in restaurants and things here, I've noticed that they will usually complain if they're not completely satisfied, whilst British people tend not to.
That's a good point Benjamin. I've never been to the US before so I don't know how the shop assistants act over there, but I've seen that behaviour exhibited by Americans who come over to Britain.
Fredrik
Hm. As Bitte is an appeal to accept, I guess you can say we have a Bitte-like system in Norway. We say værsågod = be so kind = please after the expression of thanks if it's a personal transaction or special service. Thus you will not hear it at the check-out counter in the supermarket.
(But considering that "værsågod" means "be so kind (to accept)", it's usually said first, thus the thanking person gets the last word.)
Uriel:
German was your first language? Wow! Untill when?
André in Zuid-Afrika
Why do Europeans say please after someone has said thank you? It's the same in Dutch (alsjeblieft = please). When I was there, it really confused me the first few times when someone said "alsjeblieft" after I said "danke", thinking they wanted something more from me.
fab
In France it is usual to answer "de rien" (of nothing) to "merci" (thank you). but not necessery.
Akoni
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Why do Europeans say please after someone has said thank you? It's the same in Dutch (alsjeblieft = please). When I was there, it really confused me the fist few times when someone said "alsjeblieft" after I said "danke", thinking they wanted something more from me.
You say "Alsjeblieft" when they ask you if you want more for example, it then means "Please". But when they say it when they give you something, then it means "Here you go" or something like that. A response to "alsjeblieft" when they give you something would be: "Dank je" , "Dank je wel" , "Dank u" or "Dank u wel". U is formal, Je is informal. If they say alsjeblieft after you said dank je, it means you're welcome.
Pauline
fab wrote:
In France it is usual to answer "de rien" (of nothing) to "merci" (thank you). but not necessery.
it's the same here or also ''je t'en prie'' / ''je vous en prie'' but maybe this is for french people something old-fashioned, belgian thing?
André in Zuid-Afrika
Akoni wrote:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Why do Europeans say please after someone has said thank you? It's the same in Dutch (alsjeblieft = please). When I was there, it really confused me the fist few times when someone said "alsjeblieft" after I said "danke", thinking they wanted something more from me.
You say "Alsjeblieft" when they ask you if you want more for example, it then means "Please". But when they say it when they give you something, then it means "Here you go" or something like that. A response to "alsjeblieft" when they give you something would be: "Dank je" , "Dank je wel" , "Dank u" or "Dank u wel". U is formal, Je is informal. If they say alsjeblieft after you said dank je, it means you're welcome.
Yeh, I figured that after a while, but only knew of the meaning of "please" (asseblief in Afrikaans) before the time.
fab
Quote:
it's the same here or also ''je t'en prie'' / ''je vous en prie'' but maybe this is for french people something old-fashioned, belgian thing?
Pauline,
No, that is very much used here too.
greg in noord-frankrijk
fab wrote:
In France it is usual to answer "de rien" (of nothing) to "merci" (thank you). but not necessery.
Or je vous en prie or tout le plasir est pour moi if you want to appear formal and/or odd.
Porthos
In Spanish the two most common ways to say "you're welcome" are "de nada", which is like Fab's "de rien", and they both mean "of nothing". The equivalent in English would be like saying, "It's nothing."
The other is "con gusto", which means "with pleasure". In English this would be "my pleasure", or "it's a pleasure".
Uriel
Shouga wrote:
Quote:
Didn't you say that you found that the whole gratitude thing in shops, bars and restaurants seems to work the other way around here than in the US? Like, in the US, it's the shop owner who thanks the customer and attempts to make sure that the customer is completely satisfied, whilst in England, it seemed as though it's more the customer who thanks the shop owner, who tends to behave as though they're doing the customer a favour by being there? And when I've seen Americans in restaurants and things here, I've noticed that they will usually complain if they're not completely satisfied, whilst British people tend not to.
That's a good point Benjamin. I've never been to the US before so I don't know how the shop assistants act over there, but I've seen that behaviour exhibited by Americans who come over to Britain.
An example of culture shock. In the US, retail is a buyer's market, and the wise storeowner treats his customers as what they really are -- the diference between success and bankruptcy.
Quote:
Uriel:
German was your first language? Wow! Untill when?
Where have you been, boy? I know we've discussed this on the other versions of Langcafe -- oh, well, maybe it was a long time ago.
I spoke both English and German until I moved to the US at the age of five. I was more fluent in German than in English, though, because my mother made a point of speaking German to me (she was fluent, from having been stationed there since her teenage years), and I was always playing with little German kids (we lived way off-base), and interacting with their parents. I even went to a German daycare, and could read in German by the time I was three.
When I moved to the States I steadfastly refused to speak German any more, and now it's all gone, except for a few nouns.
Walker
Fredrik from Norway wrote:
We say værsågod = be so kind = please after the expression of thanks if it's a personal transaction or special service. Thus you will not hear it at the check-out counter in the supermarket.
(But considering that "værsågod" means "be so kind (to accept)", it's usually said first, thus the thanking person gets the last word.)
Our way of saying "you're welcome" is a little strange, don't you think? I mean, considering how we don't say "be so kind as to accept..." but just "be so kind". Just saying that doesn't make much sense, really.
Icke
Uriel wrote:
We affectionately call it H-berg. There are also major American bases in Bitberg, and Karlsruhe ("K-town")!
Kaiserslautern is also called K-town by Americans. But some Germans living around that place are getting used to say that, too
Uriel
Actually, I was wrong -- Karlsruhe is just called Karlsruhe. (Dang! I used to live near there, too! Oh well, I was four...) It is Kaiserslautern that gets called K-town -- I wonder why!
Fredrik
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
Uriel:
German was your first language? Wow! Untill when?
Where have you been, boy?
In Germany.....
Fascinating that you could forget a language you spoke as a first language!
Walker:
Yeah, strange, isn't it. Ingen årsak! = No reason! (to say thanks) makes a bit more sense, I guess.
Tiorthan
Yea strange. My mother was only 8 when her family left Poland to move to Germany but she has a rather good command of Polish.
Loic
It's unusual, but not wholly implausible. I know a few people who were brought up speaking a Chinese dialect till they entered kindergarten. They were exposed to the standard speech and have since largely forgotten their mother tongues.
Constant exposure is vital if one wishes to retain command of any language. I used to be rather fluent in Malay but I can't say the same now. When I visited Malaysia a fortnight ago, I found myself in a situation where I had to haggle with the taxi driver in order to get from point A to B. Haggling is never my forte (I think only women excel in this) and coupled with having to do so in Malay made getting a good bargain even harder. Two years ago, I would have been able to put up a more competent and stout defence of my proposition, but alas, two years is a long time when it comes to language retention.
Julian
Fredrik wrote:
Fascinating that you could forget a language you spoke as a first language!
It's entirely possible. I spoke English and French when I was a young'un, but by the time I hit my teens, I could barely put together sentences in French.
Uriel
My father's first language was Portuguese, which he spoke pretty much exclusively until he hit the public school system (he was mostly raised by his grandparents, who despite spending most of their adult lives inthe US, never learned any English). He was bilingual from that point on, but ended up being drafted in his late twenties and moving away from Massachusetts -- and its large Portuguese-speaking population -- never to live there again.
He is now 64, and has forgotten almost all of a language he spoke for almost his first three decades. On his last trip to Portugal, he was appalled at how little he could speak, and how much vocabulary and grammar he had lost -- he could only speak small amounts of broken Portuguese, poor guy.
(My mom, by the way, can still speak German!)
I met plenty of other kids like me -- they had grown up speaking Korean or Japanese or whatever and managed to lose it completely when they left those countries. Children are very adaptable, but they are also driven to fit in with their peers, and often change to fit their new environments when they move. Like me, at five, refusing to speak German in Virginia.
Walker
Fredrik from Norway wrote:
Walker:
Yeah, strange, isn't it. Ingen årsak! = No reason! (to say thanks) makes a bit more sense, I guess.
But ingen orsak is what you say when somebody has thanked you, not to say thanks... although we don't say it very often. We usually say varsågod.
Uriel wrote:
He is now 64, and has forgotten almost all of a language he spoke for almost his first three decades. On his last trip to Portugal, he was appalled at how little he could speak, and how much vocabulary and grammar he had lost -- he could only speak small amounts of broken Portuguese, poor guy.
Oh, my God! Poor him...
Fredrik
Walker wrote:
But ingen orsak is what you say when somebody has thanked you, not to say thanks... although we don't say it very often. We usually say varsågod.
But you can say værsågod after someone has thanked you, can't you?
(Especially if you have given them something.)
Amazing stories, guys!
Shouga
Uriel wrote:
Like me, at five, refusing to speak German in Virginia.
I once read an interesting article about this; how people from different countries would move to, say, England, and despite the home language still being the family's native language, the children of the family would come home from school speaking in English, and refusing to say or even pay attention to anything in their native language.
Very interesting stories. I could hardly imagine forgetting how to speak in English; I don't know what I would do. I suppose it would be quite hard to forget English unless you completely submerged yourself in a different langauge and culture, as English is such a huge part of most societies. It would be easier to forget, say, a language like Icelandic, where even within the country Iceland itself, you don't need to be fluent in Icelandic to get by as most people speak English - in most countries, you'd be lucky if people even knew what Icelandic was like.
Benjamin [inactive]
Shouga wrote:
I once read an interesting article about this; how people from different countries would move to, say, England, and despite the home language still being the family's native language, the children of the family would come home from school speaking in English, and refusing to say or even pay attention to anything in their native language.
I often hear people my age having bilingual conversations with their parents. Like, their parents speak to them in, say, Urdu, whilst they respond to their parents in English. Likewise, everyone at my school always speaks English to each-other, even though many of them might technically have a language like Urdu as their first language.
Shouga
Benjamin wrote:
Shouga wrote:
I once read an interesting article about this; how people from different countries would move to, say, England, and despite the home language still being the family's native language, the children of the family would come home from school speaking in English, and refusing to say or even pay attention to anything in their native language.
I often hear people my age having bilingual conversations with their parents. Like, their parents speak to them in, say, Urdu, whilst they respond to their parents in English. Likewise, everyone at my school always speaks English to each-other, even though many of them might technically have a language like Urdu as their first language.
Yeah. My friend comes from a household where her mother's native language is French, and her father's native language is English (however, he understands many languages fluently, including French). At her house, her mother tends to speak in French (although she can speak English very well) and my friend and her father will respond in English. It can feel a little rude - I always wonder if she's talking about me.
Fredrik
Shouga wrote:
Uriel wrote:
Like me, at five, refusing to speak German in Virginia.
I once read an interesting article about this; how people from different countries would move to, say, England, and despite the home language still being the family's native language, the children of the family would come home from school speaking in English, and refusing to say or even pay attention to anything in their native language.
Reading that, I kind of stepped into childhood mode and realized how I would have done exaxctly the same. I would have been mortally ashamed of not speaking the local language.
Uriel
I know -- I'm kicking myself NOW, of course!
I bet whether or not you remain bilingual has a lot to do with your surroundings. Here, it's nothing for people to speak Spanish and Englisn interchangeably -- within the same conversation and within the same sentence, even -- because it's normal for here. And there are some identity issues tied up with speaking Spanish, too. There were no other German-speakers in Virginia that I knew of, and I think even my mother stopped using it around me, so I had that drive to conform to that norm instead. A girl who had lived in Germany with me and moved to the States at about the same age (we even have baby pics together, although I forget her name now) had a very different experience; her parents deliberately sought out a German after-school program so that she would retain the language.
Loic
Quote:
Here, it's nothing for people to speak Spanish and Englisn interchangeably -- within the same conversation and within the same sentence, even -- because it's normal for here
Code switching might seem like the epitome of bilingual fluency, but I see it as a gross inability to speak either language well at all.
Deborah
loic wrote:
Quote:
Here, it's nothing for people to speak Spanish and Englisn interchangeably -- within the same conversation and within the same sentence, even -- because it's normal for here
Code switching might seem like the epitome of bilingual fluency, but I see it as a gross inability to speak either language well at all.
I had some friends, both well-educated Spanish speakers who came to the US and learned to speak English very well, who would frequently code switch when they were among other bilingual English and Spanish speakers. They were, however, perfect capable of getting along in either language when they had to (i.e., speaking with people who knew only one of those languages).
Uriel
loic wrote:
Quote:
Here, it's nothing for people to speak Spanish and Englisn interchangeably -- within the same conversation and within the same sentence, even -- because it's normal for here
Code switching might seem like the epitome of bilingual fluency, but I see it as a gross inability to speak either language well at all.
Quite the contrary. Code switching is a mark of speaking both languages so well that you can switch between them at a moment's notice, without skipping a beat.
I have yet to meet an American code switcher who wasn't fully competent in English. I can't speak for their Spanish, but the fact that they can converse at length in it and watch Spanish TV for hours suggests that they ain't just at the babytalk level. I know my ex-boyfriend was perfectly fluent in both, as are many of my friends -- they are equally at home in either language.
True Mexicans often have a snobbish reaction to code switching similar to yours -- they feel that it is unrefined to switch back and forth or use Spanglish -- "Pick one or the other!" But that's just an example of a difference in cultural norms and expectations -- not of any intrinsic deficiency on the linguistic skills of American hispanics.
Loic
I disagree. When code switching becomes an ingrained habit, the speaker would find himself in a position where he becomes incapable of expressing himself properly in a single language. Over time, this hybrid would evolve into a creole that enjoys little currency outside his immediate circle.
It is not a question of snobbery but of respecting the language. Watching and understanding a TV programme in a foreign language is not akin to complete mastery over the language. I should know very well - I am able to understand Cantonese programmes perfectly but I am just not up to the mark when it comes to speaking it.
Conversing at length in Spanish doesn't suggest anything. Sorry, but I am sometimes rather scornful of a person's language abilities unless he is really very good in it.
Walker
Fredrik from Norway wrote:
But you can say værsågod after someone has thanked you, can't you?
(Especially if you have given them something.)
Yes, you can. It's just that I got the impression from your post that ingen orsak is a way of saying “thanks”.
loic wrote:
Code switching might seem like the epitome of bilingual fluency, but I see it as a gross inability to speak either language well at all.
I think it depends. Some people are fluent in more than one language and can switch back and forth and speak both/all of them well, whilst some are only "fluent" in several languages. The latter group is definitely larger, though. I don't think it's disrespectful when the members of an immigrant family code switches amongst themselves or amongst friends, I rather see it as pretty natural. However, I sort of pity those who aren't really fluent in any one language, and those people are many, I think. Of course I'm referring to young Middle Eastern immigrants or the children of ME immigrants. There are many who aren't really fluent in their mother tongue but not in Swedish either. On the other hand they're not seldom able to converse informally in a couple of other ME languages.
If I were to raise children in another country I'd be strict as hell about them learning Swedish. I wouldn't tolerate it if they spoke 'the other' language to me, at least at home.
Benjamin [inactive]
Walker wrote:
If I were to raise children in another country I'd be strict as hell about them learning Swedish. I wouldn't tolerate it if they spoke 'the other' language to me, at least at home.
Interesting — I've always imagined that, if I were to raise children in, say, Germany, I'd probably just speak to them in German most of the time. Ultimately, I want them to grow up as Germans, not as children who think that 'home' is somewhere other than the place where they've always lived. And I think that my ultimate aim would be to essentially become German myself if I knew that I was going to be staying there for a long time.
Having said that, the children would probably resent me later for not having spoken to them more in English.
Uriel
loic wrote:
I disagree. When code switching becomes an ingrained habit, the speaker would find himself in a position where he becomes incapable of expressing himself properly in a single language. Over time, this hybrid would evolve into a creole that enjoys little currency outside his immediate circle.
It is not a question of snobbery but of respecting the language. Watching and understanding a TV programme in a foreign language is not akin to complete mastery over the language. I should know very well - I am able to understand Cantonese programmes perfectly but I am just not up to the mark when it comes to speaking it.
Conversing at length in Spanish doesn't suggest anything. Sorry, but I am sometimes rather scornful of a person's language abilities unless he is really very good in it.
But you don't live here. You are projecting your own prejudices onto people whose real abilities you have no way to assess, and you basically don't want to hear anything I just said -- that they speak both languages perfectly well.
Deborah
loic wrote:
It is not a question of snobbery but of respecting the language. Watching and understanding a TV programme in a foreign language is not akin to complete mastery over the language. I should know very well - I am able to understand Cantonese programmes perfectly but I am just not up to the mark when it comes to speaking it.
The people I was talking about both have university degrees from their home countries and come from educated families. I'm sure their Spanish is perfectly good. I agree with Uriel -- you have your prejudice and won't allow that it might not be true, even though you don't know these people.
Pauline
I think that code-switching is a nice thing
I know two german-speakers, they're belgians and their mother tongues are german, but they speak absolutly fluently french, nearly perfectly. I've learned german from them, so we talked in german during the year I saw them (for learn it). Now I can speak quite well german, and when we meet we code switch german/french. Sometimes a word, expression, phrase will be better descriptive for something in german, other one in french.
They are capable to speak excellent french, and I can have conversations in german without difficulty. But, it's very fun and became natural for us code-switching.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Pauline wrote:
I think that code-switching is a nice thing
Entièrement d'accord. D'ailleurs je ne m'en prive pas...
Benjamin [inactive]
I sometimes code-switch with my friends from France. When I was staying there, I spoke in French all the time, but for some reason, he often spoke to me in English. I wasn't sure if it was because he thought that my French wasn't good enough to be able to understand him, or whether it was just because he wanted to practice his English.
When we talk on MSN, I type in French, whilst he types in English.
I also did a lot of code-switching when I had to talk to Italian-speakers from Switzerland when I was in Germany. My German wasn't (and still isn't) very good, and they had usually also learnt French, so we actually used a mixture of German and French (but never English).
What I find very difficult though is to code-switch between English and German. Like, if I say something in German, and the other person unexpectedly responds in English, I often don't understand them, because I assume that they're speaking German words which I don't know.
Loic
There are those who are able to revert back to a monolinggual discourse if the occasion calls for it; there are also those who can only code switch as a means of conveying thoughts and ideas.
I am referring to the latter.
Many Singaporeans code switch here and I usually perceive it as a sign of vulgarity. When someone is bilingual, it is really very easy to code switch. It actually becomes a challenge to stick to the straight and narrow - and I am inordinately proud of the fact that when I am speaking in English, I'd never allow a stray Chinese or Malay word to slip into my sentence.
Do you know that code switching is actually taking the easier way out? It's the lazy man's shortcut to instant communication. I have read of a phenomenon called Spanglish which is really quite common among Hispanic families in America. They speak in a hybrid of Spanish and English and think that they are capable of both languages. They then go back to Mexico or other Spanish-speaking countries and realise that their level of Spanish is somewhat inferior to that of their relatives; in school, their English marks are somewhat lower than those of their peers.
I am not a prejudiced prick here. I am simply saying what any other education secretary would say.
Deborah
loic wrote:
Do you know that code switching is actually taking the easier way out?
I know that that is your interpretation of it.
Loic
Walker's interpretation of code switching mirrors mine.
Quote:
...whilst some are only "fluent" in several languages. The latter group is definitely larger, though. I don't think it's disrespectful when the members of an immigrant family code switches amongst themselves or amongst friends, I rather see it as pretty natural. However, I sort of pity those who aren't really fluent in any one language, and those people are many, I think. Of course I'm referring to young Middle Eastern immigrants or the children of ME immigrants. There are many who aren't really fluent in their mother tongue but not in Swedish either. On the other hand they may be able to converse informally in a couple of other ME languages.
You only need to come here to see how dreadful code switching can be. Someone might be speaking in rapidfire Mandarin but switches to English to describe a concept for which he lacks the vocabulary to do so in Mandarin. This, clearly, is not complete bilingual fluency but a half-baked one where the speaker is only mediocre in both languages.
Of course, it depends on your definition of fluency. For me, a person is only truly fluent in his second language when his mastery over it is complete and akin to that of his mother tongue. The late Pierre Trudeau is a very good example of one who had the ability to speak completely in English or French without seeing the need to code switch at all. When he spoke in English, he'd adopt the mannerisms of English speakers; when he was communicating in French, his gestures and accompanying body language became decidedly Gallic.
This, in my opinion, is the true bilingual which we should all aspire to. Not some so-called bilingual who thinks that switching between languages in mid-sentence is a sign of fluency.
To those who are in favour of code-switching, why don't you begin your sentence in English and end it in Spanish here? After all, code switching is such a goood thing, isn't it?
Uriel
Because neither Deborah nor I speak Spanish well enough to code switch, my dear loic. That is exactly the point we are making -- you actually have to be really good at both languages to do it.
And I would seriously laugh at your statement that American English-Spanish codeswitchers or Spanglish speakers are deficient in both languages -- many of the ones I know are very intelligent, hold college degrees, and can flip back and forth with total ease. Just because your experience in Singapore with Mandarin speakers doesn't match ours, doesn't mean it holds true for all situations. And the fact that you admit to finding it "vulgar" speaks volumes as to your attitude toward it -- and why you refuse to listen to anything else.
Loic
Well, my dear Uriel. We must agree to disagree lest we fall out! I'd hate to sow the seeds of bitter feelings with both you and Deborah because we fail to see eye to eye on this issue.
Of course, I think it is vulgar. But that is not germane to the issue.
Walker
Benjamin wrote:
Walker wrote:
If I were to raise children in another country I'd be strict as hell about them learning Swedish. I wouldn't tolerate it if they spoke 'the other' language to me, at least at home.
Interesting — I've always imagined that, if I were to raise children in, say, Germany, I'd probably just speak to them in German most of the time. Ultimately, I want them to grow up as Germans, not as children who think that 'home' is somewhere other than the place where they've always lived. And I think that my ultimate aim would be to essentially become German myself if I knew that I was going to be staying there for a long time.
Having said that, the children would probably resent me later for not having spoken to them more in English.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish. I think you're right - they would resent you for not having given them what you could have given them. Have my own children speak to me in another language? No way! I'm not just being selfish here, but do consider what a gift it would be to your children.
I won't say nothin' about code switching hispanics and other code switchers that I'm unable to 'judge'; I can only say that the code switching I often hear is rather funny but also a little sad - sometimes. Immigrant kids switch between Arabic/Kurdic/Farsi and Swedish all the time. The reason must be lack of vocabulary and/or lazyness. As for adult immigrants I can't be as sure about the reason, but you'll hear them code switch in a similar manner as that of the kids as well.
Benjamin [inactive]
Walker wrote:
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish. I think you're right - they would resent you for not having given them what you could have given them. Have my own children speak to me in another language? No way! I'm not just being selfish here, but do consider what a gift it would be to your children.
It's probably more about my own prejudice and bias here — I actually prefer German to English, for totally irrational reasons, and I wouldn't like to think that I'd be speaking English most of the time for the rest of my life. And then, there's no guarantee that one's partner would have the same native language as oneself anyway.
But at the same time, I could argue that they'd learn English at school anyway.
Fredrik
Walker wrote:
Well, I wouldn't necessarily want them to think of Sweden as their home, but I'd want them to be able to speak Swedish.
I think it might be a Nordic thing. Deep in our hearts we are convinced that no place matches the Nordic countries and we want to give our children the opportunity to return to that safe haven if everything around us collapses.
That is my instinctal feeling too, but objectively I agree with Benjamin, that it is a bit selfish and evil to more or less give your children the feeling that "home" is somewhere else. I for one am grateful that the "language of the heart" of both my parents, the one they told me bedside stories in, is the native dialect of my home province.
Concerning code-switching:
My position is rather neutral, but don't you think it makes a difference if one of the languages is a mere "kitchen tongue" for that person? You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning".
Uriel
You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning".
You do all realize that for most of human history, the vast majority of human beings never got a "formal education", were illiterate, and were still just as intelligent, with just as much ability to think abstractly, problem-solve, and theorize, as you and I today? You do realize that the vastness of every language's everyday vocabulary was developed long before routine universal schooling, which is largely a modern-day invention of the last couple of centuries? That a bushman in the Kalihari Desert speaks a language just as complex and rich in vocabulary as any other?
André in Zuid-Afrika
Uriel wrote:
You can't expect people to discuss abstract, theoretical stuff in a language they never got any formal education in. Then it's rather logical that they switch to their "language of learning".
You do all realize that for most of human history, the vast majority of human beings never got a "formal education", were illiterate, and were still just as intelligent, with just as much ability to think abstractly, problem-solve, and theorize, as you and I today? You do realize that the vastness of every language's everyday vocabulary was developed long before routine universal schooling, which is largely a modern-day invention of the last couple of centuries? That a bushman in the Kalihari Desert speaks a language just as complex and rich in vocabulary as any other?
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
The Bushmen in the Kalahari (who actually speak several languages, Bushmen is the collective Western name for a group of nations living in the Kalahari, the most important being the Khoi and the San), do have a rich vocabulary for the world they live in. But outside of that world. the Khoisan languages are even more restricted than the black African languages.
Uriel
True, and some languages invent or borrow words more easily than others for new concepts. But outside technical jargon, I think pretty much every language already has the vocabulary for sophisticated abstract thought -- as part of its everyday lexicon.
Benjamin [inactive]
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
Because of this, does it seem probable that most South Africans will eventually end up speaking English/Afrikaans most of the time, and that the black African languages will decline significantly?
Fredrik
True, Uriel! But when a person isn't used to or has never learnt to discuss academic and scientific matters in their "kitchen tongue", they will probably make use of the other language.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Benjamin wrote:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Yes, that's true, but many languages are simply not equipped for modern-day academic and technical discussions. Under our constitution, teaching in schools should be provded in all 11 official languages. One of the reasons why this does not happen (all schools use either English or Afrikaans), is that the nine black African languages simply don't have the vocabulary to teach subjects such as science, maths, computer studies, etc.
Because of this, does it seem probable that most South Africans will eventually end up speaking English/Afrikaans most of the time, and that the black African languages will decline significantly?
Yes, there is increased concern amongst many black people that exactly that will happen. The black African languages experienced a revival after 1994, but seems to be in decline already (unlike Afrikaans, which also experienced a revival after 1994, and is still growing).
Uriel
I think -- thinking back to some other things people have said -- that if I lived in another country, I would be happy to have my children speak another language to me -- and even happier if I could speak it back, of course. It wouldn't offend me at all. I don't know if that is because as an American descended from non-English-speaking immigrants I just don't have as much of my "identity" wrapped up in it, and don't feel the kind of sense of personal history that Walker and Fredrik do toward their languages, or if it's because of my own childhood experience, or even if it's because English is so widespread that any attempt on my part to preserve it would be a ludicrous drop in the bucket anyway -- but I would think that it was pretty cool -- and entirely natural -- for my child to speak the "native" language at home as well as outside the house.
I would want them to speak English as well, if only because I do, and because it's certainly a helpful language to have. I know that when my German great-great-grandparents came to New Orleans, they forbade the use of German in their home and brought their children up English-only, and that seems harsh, like a denial of themselves. My Portuguese great-grandparents went the opposite route -- they never learned English at all, but their children and their grandchildren all grew up bilingual -- and that seems much more pleasant, like having the best of both worlds.
(Next time I see him, I'll have to ask if my dad ever code-switched! )
There are also major American bases in Bitberg, and Karlsruhe ("K-town"), and Wurzburg (where I was born), and Rammstein ... I could go on and on!
