There was an extremely long debate on antimoon about this very topic. I myself once thought the answer to that question was easy as pie. Now that I know more about French mainly by trying to decipher Greg's posts (which I became very good at by the way ) I must say that reaching a conclusion on the matter is rather difficult. Please provide your opinion as I am interested in seeing reasons for boths sides of the debate.
Benjamin [inactive]
From a strictly linguistic perspective, French and Spanish are usually seen as closer to each-other than either is to Italian, because French and Spanish are usually grouped as Gallo-Iberian Romance languages, whilst Italian is grouped as an Italo-Dalmation Romance languages.
Porthos
Benjamin wrote:
From a strictly linguistic perspective, French and Spanish are usually seen as closer to each-other than either is to Italian, because French and Spanish are usually grouped as Gallo-Iberian Romance languages, whilst Italian is grouped as an Italo-Dalmation Romance languages.
But with sub-branches and academic classificiations aside, one cannot help but see that French is closer to Italian than it is to Spanish and that Spanish is far closer to Italian than French. We know for a fact that the lexical similarity between French-Italian is 89%, whilst between French and Spanish is only in the 75% range. Italian and Spanish share 82% of the same vocab, and both Italian and French lack all of the Arabic influence which Spanish recieved after centuries of Arab occupation. Yet in many other ways, Italian is closer to Spanish than it is French.
fab
this question has been a big subject on antimoon. The problem (and maybe the answer) would depend of what you are comparing.
It would be as asking, if you have two brothers to which one to you most look like. It would depend of what you compare : you can have the same nose than one of your brother, but the same size than the other; the same eye color than one and the same hair color with the other, etc...
In terms of general vacabulary, French and Italian share more words of common origins, less between italian and Spanish, but generally more similar together. In terms of grammar there are common points between French and Italian that spanish won't share and others between Italian and spanish that french don't share, etc...
french and spanish share "qu" (que, quien/qui, etc. while Italian would have "CH" (che, chi)... the spanish "que" and italian "che" are pronounced the same, but the french "qui" and italian "chi" also, while french "que" and spanish "que" are pronounced differently...
So, there would not be a clear answer.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Porthos wrote:
(...) and both Italian and French lack all of the Arabic influence which Spanish recieved after centuries of Arab occupation.
I would rather say the Arabic influence on French & Italian is of a different nature (and extent) than that on Spanish. Not to mention late Arabic incursions into the French language as of the 19th, 20th & 21st centuries.
Deborah
fab wrote:
In terms of general vacabulary, French and Italian share more words of common origins, less between italian and Spanish, but generally more similar together.
...as I am often reminded in my Spanish class, when I attempt to guess at a Spanish word by taking a word that's similar in French and Italian and adding a Spanish ending, only to find out that such a word doesn't exist in Spanish.
Porthos
Deborah wrote:
fab wrote:
In terms of general vacabulary, French and Italian share more words of common origins, less between italian and Spanish, but generally more similar together.
...as I am often reminded in my Spanish class, when I attempt to guess at a Spanish word by taking a word that's similar in French and Italian and adding a Spanish ending, only to find out that such a word doesn't exist in Spanish.
Yes, for example my mother will try to converse with Italians or French speakers by using words such as "comer" to Italians or "tener" to Frenchmen. And I'm like, "mom, those words aren't the same in their languages."
fab
Yes, for example my mother will try to converse with Italians or French speakers by using words such as "comer" to Italians or "tener" to Frenchmen. And I'm like, "mom, those words aren't the same in their languages."
Yes, it is a temptation when you don't know the words to use the ones you know and then "hispanize" and "italinize" them. most of times it works, but in a lot of cases also it doesn't.
I'll propose a game: I just noted a serie of words from a little spanish text that exist in the exact same spelled form in french (without the accents), sometimes in meaning different, but smae spelling. coud you make a french sentence with them ?
y, la, litoral, en, de, se, capital, region, social, que, importantes, grande, activa, es, montes, suave, a base, un, coma, avion, tarde, sobre, natal, entre, con, le, reunion, bien
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Yes, it is a temptation when you don't know the words to use the ones you know and then "hispanize" and "italinize" them. most of times it works, but in a lot of cases also it doesn't.
I do that from English to French at lot as well. I'm not good enough to be able to do it from English to German yet though.
David
Spanish and Italian are closer, but I think Italian is the closest MAJOR language to French
patriccke
I agree with you.
But it is not a simple question.
Take these most basic sentences and look what Italian share with French, not Spanish:
Elle est venue. Je l'ai déjà vue E' venuta. L'ho già vista Ha venido / vino. Ya la he visto / ya la vi
- use of both auxiliaries "be/have" for coumpounds tenses
- form of the past participle that depends on the subject (with "be") or object (with "have") [comment on dit accord???] even though the rules slightly differ (il nous a appelés / ci ha chiamato)
- rare use of preterite (it only survives in the South of Italy)
- place of adverbs.
Or:
Tu veux de l'eau? Non merci, je n'ai plus soif Vuoi dell'acqua? No grazie, non ho più sete ¿Quieres agua? No gracias, ya no tengo sed
- partitive article
- translation of "no longer"
- no distinction between verb and auxiliary "have"
Many Italian expressions can also be translated literally into French.
But not everyone notices it. The specificity of the French phonology and the atypical way Latin words evolved make French sound farther from Italian than it actually is.
However for an Italian Spanish is more intelligible. I know a few Italian students who went to Spain for an academic exchange. None of them had bothered taking language classes before, while those who go to France usually do.
I personally feel that what makes Italian closer to Spanish is that both are "typical" Latin languages. It's hard to explain, but when you speak Italian, you think in a way that's more similar to Spanish than to French.
For instance, when someone invites you for a movie both questo film l'ho già visto and ho già visto questo film are correct. But the first sentence sounds more genuine. Spaniards will also say esta peli ya la vi, while the French will rather say j'ai déjà vu ce film
Porthos
Let's consider a few most basic words.
Spanish - Gracias
Italian - Grazie
French - Merci
Spanish - Si
Italian - Si
French - Oui
Spanish - Te amo
Italian - Ti amo
French - Je t'aime
Spanish - Yo
Italian - Io
French - Je
Spanish - Amigo
Italian - Amico
French - Ami
Spanish - Amor
Italian - Amore
French - Amour
Spanish - Donde
Italian - Dove
French - Ou
Spanish - Con
Italian - Con
French - Avec
Spanish - Carne
Italian - Carne
French - Viande
Spanish - Casa
Italian - Casa
French - Maison
Spanish - Yo soy
Italian - Io sono
French - Je suis
Spanish - Senor
Italian - Signore
French - Monsieur
Spanish - Senora
Italian - Signora
French - Madame
greg in noord-frankrijk
Oui, en effet, considérons tout cela d'un peu plus près :
Fr <merci> — Wa <mèrci> — Oc <mercé> — Ca <gràcies> — Li <grássie> — It <grazie> — Es <gracias> — Po <obrigado>
Fr <oui> — Wa <wèy> <åy> <oyi> — Oc <òc> — Ca <si> — Li <sci> — It <si> — Es <si> — Po <sim>
Fr <si> — Wa <siya> — Oc <si> — Ca <si> — Li <se> — It <sì> — Es <sí> — Po <si> (?)
Fr <ami> — Wa <camaråde> — Oc <amic> — Ca <amic> — Li <amigu> — It <amico> — Es <amigo> — Po <amigo>
Fr <amour> — Wa <amoûr> — Oc <amor> — Ca <amor> — Li <amú> — It <amore> — Es <amor> — Po <amor>
Fr <avec> — Wa <avou> — Oc <amb> — Ca <amb> — Li <cun> — It <con> — Es <con> — Po <com>
Fr <viande> — Wa <viyande> — Oc <carn> — Ca <carn> — Li (?) — It <carne> — Es <carne> — Po <carne>
Fr <carne> = {viande de mauvaise qualité, viande coriace}
Fr <où> — Wa <ou> <wice> — Oc <ont> — Ca <on> — Li <dunde> <duve> — It <dove> — Es <donde> — Po <onde>
Fr <monsieur> [mon sieur ; mon seigneur] — Wa <moncheû> — Oc <monsen> <sénher> <sèhner> — Ca <senyor> — Li <u. sciu> — It <signore> — Es <señor> — Po <senhor>
Fr <seigneur> — Wa <signeûr> = {dieu ; noble}
Fr <madame> — Wa <madame> — Oc <dona> <dòna> — Ca <senyora> — Li <a sciá> — It <signora> — Es <señora> — Po <senhora>
) I must say that reaching a conclusion on the matter is rather difficult. Please provide your opinion as I am interested in seeing reasons for boths sides of the debate.