Elaine
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Kosovar IndependenceWhat do you all think about Kosovo's recent declaration of independence? Should we (have) recognize(d) an independent Kosovo or are we simply asking for trouble? What does this mean for other separatist nations?
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Benjamin [inactive]
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I am generally sympathetic to all non-violent independentist movements as a means for creating more locally-based democratic societies — I tend to believe that centralisation should have to be justified over decentralisation, rather than the other way round. Ultimately, if the majority of people in Kosovo are in favour of an independent Kosovo, then I am also in favour of it.
I actually don't see it as having any particular significance for other 'separatist nations', as you put it. It's nothing new, though I suppose it does serve as a reminder that it can be done.
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KSa
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I generally support independist movements but this time I am perplexed:
The major mistake some people make when they speak of the "Kosovar" nation. There is nothing like "Kosovar" nation - they are Albanians who settled in the region of Kosovo in Serbia long time ago. I'm not against new countries proclaimed by nations with clearly defined identities (Basks, Kurds, etc.) but it's dubious whether it's necessary to have two countries with Albanians even though it wouldn't be anything unusual. Throughout history there have been such cases, vide Germany or Italy.
Another very important thing is the fact that Kosovo is historically very important and precious piece of land for the Serbs - they shed hectolitres of blood there during the famous Battle of Kosovo in 1389, and lost independence for 500 years.
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Liz
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I'm also in favour of independent Kosovo, but I'm afraid it will be dificult for them to survive as an independent state. But who knows.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| KSa wrote: | | Throughout history there have been such cases, vide Germany or Italy. |
And arguably still, thinking about Germany and Austria. Or, I suppose, lots of countries in the Americas.
| KSa wrote: | | Another very important thing is the fact that Kosovo is historically very important and precious piece of land for the Serbs - they shed hectolitres of blood there during the famous Battle of Kosovo in 1389, and lost independence for 500 years. |
Is what happened in the 14th century really that important when thinking about Kosovar independence today though? This sounds reminiscent of the small minority of people in Scotland who go on about the Battle of Bannockburn and the Wars of Scottish Independence, and try to use it to justify present-day political objectives — it always seems bizarre to me.
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KSa
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| Benjamin wrote: | | And arguably still, thinking about Germany and Austria. |
Italy and San Marino too, I guess 
| Benjamin wrote: | | Is what happened in the 14th century really that important when thinking about Kosovar independence today though? |
Yes, because it has a symbolic meaning.
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KSa
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| Liz wrote: | | I'm also in favour of independent Kosovo, but I'm afraid it will be dificult for them to survive as an independent state. But who knows. |
Would you be in favor of the proclamation of a Hungarian state in this part of Romania which has the Hungarian majority?
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KSa
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| Benjamin wrote: | | This sounds reminiscent of the small minority of people in Scotland who go on about the Battle of Bannockburn and the Wars of Scottish Independence, and try to use it to justify present-day political objectives — it always seems bizarre to me. |
Well, I think there is a sort of (what I call) "the rule of history" that the relationship between certain countries is unchangeable. Vide Germany & Poland, Russia & Poland and to my (limited) knowledge - England & Scotland.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| KSa wrote: | | Benjamin wrote: | | Is what happened in the 14th century really that important when thinking about Kosovar independence today though? |
Yes, because it has a symbolic meaning. |
It might have symbolic meaning, yes. What I'm wary of though is the attitude that we have the right to this or that today because of what our ancestors did hundreds or even thousands of years ago. This is precisely why I am not a supporter of Israel.
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Lazar
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| Benjamin wrote: | | This is precisely why I am not a supporter of Israel. |
In terms of Israel, I think I'd consider myself a post-Zionist: my view is that the establishment of the Israeli nation is a fait accompli, Zionism was a historical movement with a goal and it's not relevant now, and they should work for the development of a secular Hebrew ethnicity. I think that the occupied territories should be closed to Israeli settlement - that is, I disagree very strongly with the pioneering (religiously motivated) imperative of the settlers, including the desire for an undivided Jerusalem - and ideally they would constitute a Palestinian state in their entirety. The whole situation in West Asia is really such a mess, though.
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Uriel
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I've gotta admit that my grasp of anything happening in Eastern Europe is so hazy and muddled that I really can't bring myself to care much. It was only just yesterday that I grasped that all this is occurring in what used to be Yugoslavia. So I'm just getting to the point where I can find the place on the map! (Yes, it's true. Since the Cold War ended, Eastern Europe might as well be marked "Here there be Dragons" for me.)
Um, so more power to Kosovo if that's what they want, but the last thing the world needs is more little patchwork countries and island-states. I mean, who can get anything done on that scale? And I understand that it now throws a monkeywrench into the works as far as Serbia joining the EU as planned. Which seems to be a forward step for most of these fringe countries who want to be hauled bodily into the 21st century but don't think they can do it on their own.
Of course, I suppose that begs the question of is it better to be on someone else's apron-strings or to shift for yourself? Will it really be all it's cracked up to be, or will you remain a poor backwater, just in a richer pond where the bigger fish resent you? Is this sort of the EU's version of Manifest Destiny, or at least a shoring-up of its economic borders, using Eastern Europe as a buffer zone against Russia and Turkey as a buffer zone against the Middle East? And if these countries really are just buffers, and they know they're buffers, what will they cynically demand in return for their guarding-the-outpost status? Will they simply play the big powers against each other, just like they did in the last Cold War? Should the rest of us get involved, or just sit back and let them sort it out themselves, then congratulate the winners? Hmmm.
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Loic
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Let's face it, Kosovo was lost to Serbia for perpetuity when Slobodan Milosevic launched his heavy-handed crackdown of nascent Kosovar autonomy in the late 1980s. Kosovo might be the historical cradle of Serb culture, but after all the brutality and the loss of life, it is natural for Kosovar Albanians to demand their independence.
After all, they have already enjoyed de facto independence since the United Nations moved in during the late 1990s. Their declaration of independence was merely legalising the whole process that begain since that period. Keeping Kosovar indefinitely in limbo as a protectorate of the United Nations please nobody, Serbs or Kosovars alike.
In principle, I am opposed to secession as I am a strong believer in sitting down and working together for the sake of unity. After all, united we stand but divided we fall.
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Liz
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| KSa wrote: | | Liz wrote: | | I'm also in favour of independent Kosovo, but I'm afraid it will be dificult for them to survive as an independent state. But who knows. |
Would you be in favor of the proclamation of a Hungarian state in this part of Romania which has the Hungarian majority? |
I wasn't precise enough - I said that I'm in favour of it for want of a better word. Of course, unity and peace are important and the separation is not at all the best option but probably the optimal and necessary decision in this case, because these conflicts couldn't be settled in other ways. As for the Hungarian minority, there is a healthy amount of revisionistic sentiments in any halfway decent (and not very right-wing) Hungarian citizen, including me. But as opposed to extreme right-wing people, we are fully aware of the fact that getting the Hungarian speaking territories back from the neighbouring countries is simply not a plausible idea anymore. Well, I strayed away from the topic and didn't seem to give a straightforward answer to your question but what I wanted to say is that I would be in favour of the separation of Hungarian speaking parts from Romania (that's what you have mentioned, isn't is?) if they joined Hungary but not as an independent state because another Hungary-like state sounds like an off-the-wall idea to me. However, I must be a little biassed as it's basically the same as the case of Albania and the independent Kosovo. Not an easy question, for certain.
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Loic
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Reminds me of what my Hungarian friend said with respect to the nationalist aspirations of certain Hungarians who desire a Greater Hungary. He said that the leaders cannot already effectively govern the country as it is, not to mention an enlarged one.
By the way Liz, are you back for good?
PS: I was thinking that I could have possibly underestimated the strength of the cultural attachment which many Serbians have towards Kosovo. Why then do almost every Serbe of all political stripes reacting in such an irrational manner? Their behaviour might actually provide incontrovertible evidence of how dear this province is to Serbia.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Loic wrote: | | PS: I was thinking that I could have possibly underestimated the strength of the cultural attachment which many Serbians have towards Kosovo. Why then do almost every Serbe of all political stripes reacting in such an irrational manner? Their behaviour might actually provide incontrovertible evidence of how dear this province is to Serbia. |
It certainly strikes me as a bit strange as well. After all, about 92% of people in Kosovo are, shall we say, 'Kosovar-Albanians' who speak Albanian and are for the most part Muslims. It is also my understanding that it is effectively the poorest country in Europe. I have to say that I really do find it very difficult to understand why Serbians in general would tend to be so bothered about it.
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KSa
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Today Poland recognized the independence of Kosovo.
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Liz
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| Loic wrote: | | Reminds me of what my Hungarian friend said with respect to the nationalist aspirations of certain Hungarians who desire a Greater Hungary. He said that the leaders cannot already effectively govern the country as it is, not to mention an enlarged one. |
That's true - they can't. However, this is not the reason why claims to those lands are unrealistic. This is a lost case anyway.
| Loic wrote: | | By the way Liz, are you back for good? |
What do you mean by 'back' and 'for good'? 
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Loic
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Not sure about the details but apparently, Kosovo was the cradle of Serbian culture and civilisation until the Muslim Turks invaded the area sometime in the Middle Ages. Many of the native Serbs were either assimilated into the dominant Ottoman culture of the times and adopted Islam while others retreated northwards. A lot of Serb blood has hence been spilt over Kosovar in the past and this might explain the complicated relationship which Belgrade has with Pristina today.
I can only understand the current situation if I look at it in context. To us Chinese, the Central Plains (modern day Shaanxi Province) is widely regarded by historians and anthropologists as the cradle of Chinese civilisation. True, Shaanxi remains a Chinese-dominant region till today (this hurts the relevance of my analogy), but I can only imagine the reaction if Shaanxi were to cede from China. It would make the China-Taiwan row seem very mild in comparison.
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KSa
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| Benjamin wrote: | | I have to say that I really do find it very difficult to understand why Serbians in general would tend to be so bothered about it. |
I guess the main reason is that Kosovo is the cradle of Serbian statehood. It's like the Poles would feel if Greater Poland with Gniezno (first capital) proclaimed secession from Poland.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| KSa wrote: | | I guess the main reason is that Kosovo is the cradle of Serbian statehood. |
It was in the past, but it blatantly isn't any more. I simply cannot understand this extreme kind of sentimental nostalgia — why can't people just get over things that happened centuries ago that no-one around today is even remotely responsible for? Kosovo has been predominantly 'Albanian' since the 19th century.
(Sorry, I'm ranting here).
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KSa
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| Benjamin wrote: |
I simply cannot understand this extreme kind of sentimental nostalgia
(Sorry, I'm ranting here). |
I think that, like in case of any nostalgia, it's beyond understanding of many people. Although it's hard to give an explanation, I'll try:
My mother was born in the territory which belonged to Poland before WWII, and after the war it was taken over by USSR. Now - it's Ukraine. She dreamed of visiting this place of birth, but for many years it was impossible. Finally, in the 90s, when it became feasible, we went to Ukraine and found the village where my mother was born.
She cried.
I need to mention that she never remembered this place because she was just 3 years old when all Polish families were forced to leave.
The area is not geographically attractive at all - a lowland with little forests here and there.
She cried, however, because this was where her life had started. I think what differs us from animals is that we can express emotions in such situations like: something starts... something ends... something new begins.... etc.
The Serbian case is what I described above in macroscale. The Serbians, as a nation, feel this special sort of attachement to the place where their statehood was born even though no one remembers those times.
Unfortunately I haven't expressed myself the way I wanted to due to my imperfect English but I hope you at least partially understood what I meant.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| KSa wrote: | The Serbian case is what I described above in macroscale. The Serbians, as a nation, feel this special sort of attachement to the place where their statehood was born even though no one remembers those times.
Unfortunately I haven't expressed myself the way I wanted to due to my imperfect English but I hope you at least partially understood what I meant. |
Your English always seems perfect to me — and yes, I completely understand what you mean.
I have nothing particularly against the idea of Serbians having some kind of sentimental attachment to Kosovo as a place for historical reasons. But why should that translate into a desire to forcibly rule over and dominate Kosovo against the wishes of the majority of the people who live there?
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Uriel
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| Benjamin wrote: | | KSa wrote: | | I guess the main reason is that Kosovo is the cradle of Serbian statehood. |
It was in the past, but it blatantly isn't any more. I simply cannot understand this extreme kind of sentimental nostalgia — why can't people just get over things that happened centuries ago that no-one around today is even remotely responsible for? Kosovo has been predominantly 'Albanian' since the 19th century.
(Sorry, I'm ranting here). |
I thought that in European terms, the 19th C. was just yesterday. 
I would imagine that part of Serbia's sudden (if it is sudden) strong attachment to Kosovo is that A) its departure makes them look weak and splintered, unable to hang on to their own, especially at a time when they are trying to build themselves as a nation, and B) it's a case of you don't miss something until it's gone -- andf then you're like, Oh, shit.....
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Loic
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Irrespective of the stands taken by interested parties over the issue of independence for Kosovo, it is now largely a fait accompli . However, I would like to point out that secession should take two hands to clap: not only should Kosovo want to secede, Serbia should agree to secession.
After studying the details, I have since revised my original position and am now firmly against an independent Kosovo. It is odious that so many people support independence for Kosova based on a woolly adherence to the wholly misguided principle of self-determination without thoroughly understanding the facts on the ground.
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