La Belgique n'existe plus !

fab · La Belgique n'existe plus !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRtTvAZChd0

Porthos

Could you give me the gist of that video?

Pauline

Porthos,

I can explain you approximatly what has ahppened.

This week on RTBF ( walloon tv ) there was broacasted a news flash, that Flanders have declared independance from wallonie, so therefore Belgium not anymore exist. The royal family escaped and the prime minister was very worried etc... It was presented as if it were true, but it was not in reality.

Of course, many people have believed it and there is scandal because the prime minsiter and the Flemish are fruious. The RTBF have explained, that they think it's necessary having some discussions about the future of Belgium - if it will continue or split up and that the programme was for the instigation of discussions.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Une vraie blague belge, une fois !

Porthos

Thank you for that explanation Pauline. Wow, that's pretty ridiculous that a false news report could be so easily accepted by the public, and even more shocking that such a false rumor could be spread by the local media in the first place and have sustained itself. Something of that nature would never, ever happen here in the U.S. That would be like the media suddenly announcing that California decided to seceed from the United States.

Pauline

André in Zuid-Afrika

Benjamin [inactive]

Shouga

greg in noord-frankrijk

fab

Uriel

Be quick while Belgium still exists.

I'm curious too -- I assume his French is better than his Dutch, but he expresses an interest in the Netherlands....

Uriel

I didn't get this one (even after I allowed for BabelFish's imperfect translations!).

Q : Pourquoi les belges se promènent-ils avec un seau d'eau ?
R : Pour payer en liquide.

Anyone care to explain?

Pauline

greg LOL !!!

Julian

greg in noord-frankrijk

(liquid = cash, flowing money)

(Belgians are supposed to be addicted to French fries)

Sander

André in Zuid-Afrika

Now Greg, behave....

Joanne

greg in noord-frankrijk

Pauline

Pauline

Pauline

Hallo greg,

Is it possible reduce the size of the map you've put on your message ?Because it's enormous, the page is become very wide and annoying.

Thanks

greg in noord-frankrijk

André in Zuid-Afrika

Porthos

I don't believe it's ever wise to try to artificially construct a political state across linguistic and cultural boundaries. I don't think Quebec should be a part of Anglo-Canada. And I don't think Flanders should be a part of Belgium, or for that matter, I don't think Wallonia should be part of Belgium as the Flemings are actually the majority of the country. I don't know if this is true of Europeans, but most Americans I've spoken with and myself included tend to think of Belgium as being a Francophone country, while we don't normally think of Belgium as being a Dutch-speaking country, although 2/3 of the population, an actual majority, speak Dutch!

I don't see how places like Nord Pas de Calais and Normandy are that different from Wallonia.

Flanders should be an independent state or be incorporated within the Netherlands. Likewise for Wallonia.

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

I find what you say very interesting, Josh. Especially as you've mentioned before that certain states in the US may become primarily Spanish speaking in a few decades. If/when parts of the US become Spanish speaking, would you believe that they should separate from the US and form their own independent country (or perhaps join Mexico)?

Likewise, do you think that the areas of Wales which are mostly Welsh-speaking should form an independent state? Not to mention the fact that there are millions of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc. of non-European descent living in Western European countries, and often making majorities in certain areas? To me, it is very surprising that a Mexican-American (or any type of American at all, for that matter) would have a 'monoculturalist' attitude to the concept of the nation state.

Porthos

Porthos

Porthos

And Fab, Check your damn messages dude! I asked you a grammar question, and you have yet to respond to me.

I was entertaining the possibility of English never having been influenced by Norman-French but instead by Parisian French. Now, that would be funny.

Instead of "kwes-tion"
It would be "kes-tion"

Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos

To me, I have much more in common with an Argentinian than with someone from Quebec. But I have tons in common with an Anglophone Canadian. For me, there is quite a bit of differences between Anglo-Candadians and French-Canadians.

fab

Loic

Not too long ago, I thought Belgium was a francophone country with a small and troublesome Dutch-speaking minority. I have since learnt that the reverse is in fact reality although I'd not go so far as to describe the French-speaking community as troublesome. I suppose the main cultural export of Belgium, Tintin, is in French.

Tintin says Bonjour and not Goedendag.

Loic

I have just seen the video clip which Fab posted and I feel compelled to weigh in on this debate.

Firstly, RTBF might have disparaged its own credibility by crying wolf prematurely. In the unlikely event that the Flemish parliament were to really declare independence in future, who would believe RTBF when it carries the news?

Secondly, Sander missed out a point when he painted the secession of Belgium as one big francophone conspiracy designed to oppress the downtrodden Flemish speaking masses. Belgium is mostly Catholic; the Netherlands is mostly Protestant. We do not care about such petty religious differences nowadays, but it meant a world of a difference back then.

Thirdly, a hypothetical independent Flemish state has no right over a mostly francophone Brussels. True, Brussels was a Flemish speaking city. It is now a French speaking city. Get over it - life's a bitch.

Lastly, I am emphatically against the dissolution of the Belgian kingdom. Would being independent actually make Flanders richer or would such an act turn them into a social pariah?

Loic

To play the Devil's Advocate, here are a few reasons which would justify -in my eyes- the secession of Flanders.

1. Wallonia is too socialist.
2. Wallonia is an economic millstone around the neck of Flanders.
3. Flemish politicians stop being so pigheaded about having Brussels as their capital.

Not many reasons, though. I think number 2 gets the goat of many Flemish extreme right-wing politicians. For me, number 3 gets mine.

Uriel

I know the Alps run through several countries, but I rarely think of Germany when I think of the Alps. Switzerland, Italy, and then Austria come to mind first -- in about that order.

Benjamin, I don't think there's any serious suggestion that any state in the Southwest will ever be overwhelmingly Spanish-speaking. And American hispanics seem to have virtually no interest in rejoining Mexico. The Puerto Ricans and Cubans would have no interst in this, of course, and I swear nobody hates Mexicans like another Mexican! It's weird, but it's true -- Mexican-Americans will speak fondly of the food, the language, and their heritage from south of the border -- but despite the ethnic pride and nostalgia, they treat it more like a place their parents/grandparents escaped from (in an economic sense) -- and they are the first to get all worked up over illegal immigration, welfare recipients, and immigrants who haven't learned English. It seems like a contradiction, but what you have going on there is "My parents went through all the bullshit and red tape to come here legally -- why can't they?", "We were dirt poor and my parents worked their asses off for everything they had -- they never took no damn handouts! Why should my taxes go to those lazy fuckers?", and "My dad came here not speaking a word of English -- he worked three crappy jobs and went to night school to learn it!"

This also explains why a large percentage of Border Patrol agents are, in fact, of Mexican descent.

One of my ex's neighbors lived in Miami for some time and summed it up thus: "Cubans stick together. We Mexicans don't."

Pauline

if the flemish don't want having nothing with Wallonie, then what they will do with their holiday houses ?very many flemish, ducth, german etc... have a holiday house in walonie because it's beautiful countryside and calm.maybe we will get back those houses.

greg in noord-frankrijk

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

Loic

Greg: Well, socialism discourages entrepreneurship and innovation. It lures people into a false sense of complacency. It is inefficient and wasteful - it's like a malaise, isn't it?

I think the title of this thread should be renamed: Les Alpes françaises existent encore!

Pauline

greg in noord-frankrijk

Loic

The Soviet attempts to out-run the americans in the space race was a Pyrrhic victory as we all now know. What was the point of sending the first man to the moon, launching the first satellite into outer space or having the distinction of putting a dog in space when the majority of their citizens were barely scrapping through in life?

I suppose I don't dislike socialism in general; I am just allergic to socialists and damned communists. They are always taking to the streets in protests (read: the reaction of the Volkswagon workforce in Brussels). They are always poking their noses into other people's business (read: telling independent schools which students to accept and which to reject). They are naive and think that certain aspects in life such as job security and free health care are entitlements and not a privilege. They are often slow to adapt to the changing economy and end up frustrated and helpless as the world changes faster than they do. They then take it out on the Government, the very institution which they had placed their trust in.

Another thing about socialist systems: the stupendously high tax rate. Taxes punish those who produce and reward those who don't produce. Think about it.

I might be guilty of making a gross generalisation here, but I think that French-speaking people tend to hold very leftish views in general.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

Well until he joins the Green Party, Chirac will still be far too right-wing and far too 'grey' for me to even consider supporting him.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Same here...

Benjamin [inactive]

I thought you said that you had actually never voted for a left-wing candidate/party, and that you saw yourself as centre-right? That's great if you've changed your mind and joined the Green Party, but I do think that it would be a rather drastic and unusual change for someone to make.

But perhaps you were joking. Sadly, I have a reputation for having a somewhat non-existent sense of humour.

Loic

Greg: The Soviet Space Programme was not a shining example of entrepreneurship and innovation. If anything, it was progress made by dictatorial fiat.

I do not consider my political views to be far to the right. In my opinion, continental Western European politicians in general and French statesmen in particular, are pretty lefty who probably would love to schmooze with Moscow if the Soviet Union were still around. Even Nicolas Sarkozy has expressed an aversion to foreign investment in French companies. Colbertism still rings true in the French psyche where the state plays a pro-active role in managing the 'commanding heights of the economy'. To me, the job of the state is merely to ensure that the market works as efficiently as possible; it should steer clear of everything else.

The only 'lefty' views I hold would be to accept the arguments that the market cannot be entirely trusted to protect the environment or native cultures and languages. That's where state intervention would step in to do its job.

I beg to differ that only the fonctionnaires believe in job security. I always read about European and American fears of cheap Chinese textiles and how many accuse the yuan of being under-valued. If the French workforce truly believe in being employable, they'd quit bitching about cheaper competition from India and China and learn to accept reality. Their way of life cannot go unchallenged forever and if there is a slight drop in living standards, so be it. If a Chinese worker can work 10 hours a day and 7 days a week for a fraction of what we are used to, I don't see how other people in supposedly more developed countries can complain. They have fire in their bellies while we have gone soft and pampered.

Uriel

Socialism is a vague term that runs the gamut from any kind of social program -- including the ones we have here in the US, supposedly one of the most anti-socialist western countries -- to its more extreme end, communism. As an ism, I don't think that it is incompatible with capitalism or any other politico-economic system at all -- all countries have to look after their own somehow, and any collective tax-funded effort qualifies as socialism in the essence. With that in mind, it can't be a "bad word". It also can't be much of a blanket term, when it is practiced (in one form or another) all across the political spectrum! So to divide the world into "capitalists" and "socialists" is not accurate -- both models can be in use in the same place at the same time.

Loic

Not something I necessarily agree with, Uriel.

To get back to the essence of this topic, why is Wallonia relatively impoverished vis-a-vis Flanders? Could it boil down to the socialist work ethic and their sense of entitlement? Make no mistake about it - I am not for the exploitation of workers. One can be a humanitarian as well as a conservative - just ask the late Jeanne Kirkpatrick. But if the econnomy has been persistently in the doldrums and no amount of subsidies or government intervention have seemed to improve the situation, we have to ask long and hard questions. Could it actually boil down to the politico-economic system that prevails in Wallonia?

It is manifestly clear that the cleavage between Flanders and Wallonia is not merely cultural. As money is the root of all evil, it is also the root of petty strife and division.

Porthos

Loic

I know that Belgium is a rather secular country today, but I wonder if Flanders is still slightly more religious than Wallonia, given the traditional anti-clerical tendencies which all francophones seem to possess. It must be in the genes.

Uriel

I don't think the French got all anti-clerical until the French Revolution, when the Church was denounced as a major prop of the hated aristocracy.

Uriel

And according to Statistics Canada, as of the 2001 census, of the 7 million residents of Quebec (most of whom can claim French genes), almost 6 million identified themselves as Catholic.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo30b.htm

greg in noord-frankrijk

Uriel

Nothing just pops out of a vacuum, eh?

Oddly, most of my study of the French Revolution was courtesy of art history classes, not general history -- Neoclassicism as a post-revolutionary reaction to the fin de siecle Rococo, Ingres as a fervent propaganda painter, stuff like that.

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

Loic

If you're serious about a merger between France and Germany, should we now create a spin-off thread called La France et L'Allemagne n'existeront plus?

greg in noord-frankrijk

Ou plutôt un salon dérivé intitulé La France et l'Allemagne ont la joie de vous faire part de la naissance de la Françallemagne.

La Françallemagne pourrait être autre chose que la France et l'Allemagne.

Loic

What'd the German equivalent of such a new union be called? Frankdeutchland? A bit of a mouthful, what?

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

I have to say that I agree with Fab — the Franco-German alliance is largely superficial. This became very apparent to me when I was staying with well educated people in France and Germany earlier this year and met many people there — on the whole, the French people seemed to have very little interest in Germany, and the Germans seemed to have very little interest in France. Actually, I'd say that the Germans I met seemed to have a more positive/interested attitude towards England than towards France — something which I found very surprising.

And as Fab said, I see no reason why there ought to be such a relationship specifically between France and Germany today, even if that was the original aim in the 1950s when the European Coal & Steel Community (what has gradually become the European Union as we see it today) was first established.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Mon opinion est très différente de la vôtre, fab et Benjamin. Tout d'abord parce que l'économie et la politique sont têtues : elles militent en faveur d'un rapprochement toujours plus prononcé entre l'Allemagne et la France dont les échanges bilatéraux surpassent tout équivalent en Europe. Ce qui serait incroyablement frivole, ce serait de croire que la France et l'Allemagne ne s'uniraient encore davantage qu'en raison d'un élan d'affection réciproque — voire même d'une simple curiosité mutuelle — entre les Allemands et les Français. Les enjeux ne sont (pas encore) à ce niveau.

Si le contexte historique n'est plus celui de l'Après-guerre — pas plus que celui des Trente glorieuses —, nous sommes à l'ère ce qui semble être le Village planétaire, si aucun cataclysme ne vient perturber cette tendance idyllique. À cette échelle donc, la France et l'Allemagne représente une rue du Village, et l'Union européenne un Quartier. J'ai la faiblesse de croire la France et l'Allemagne sont, en quelque sorte, chacune un des deux côtés de la grand'rue du quartier européen. Non que l'UE se résume à la RFA et la République française, mais rien qui vaille ne saurait être durablement entrepris en dehors de ces deux Républiques. Il est évident que toutes les nations européennes ont leur rôle à jouer, et en particulier l'Italie, l'Espagne et la Pologne pour n'en citer que trois. Mais aucune d'entre elles ne saurait se passer de l'Allemagne et de la France pour porter son projet. Pour ceux qui en douteraient, songez au grotesque numéro de cirque exécuté — sur ordre et à la va vite — par le Royaume-Uni en 2003, avec sa traîne des gouvernements tels que celui de l'Espagne, de l'Italie et de la Pologne, qui s'est soldé par un pitoyable naufrage intégral.

Pour toutes ces raisons, je pense que la coopération franco-allemande, bien que librement consentie et non-exclusive, est tout sauf superficielle. Elle l'est si peu que le linge sale se lave toujours en famille. Je crois également que cette coopération est nécessaire car je ne vois pas quelle alternative un tant soi peu crédible s'offre à l'Union européenne quand il s'agit de retrousser ses manches pour construire et avancer. L'Espagne, l'Italie et la Belgique, par exemple, sont des partenaires fiables qui savent faire preuve d'initiative et entraîner leurs partenaires. Le projet polonais, s'il existe, ne me paraît pas très clair. Quant au Royaume-Uni, il est totalement et durablement disqualifié.

fab

Greg,

Je reconnais tout à fait que la France ait des liens politiques forts avec l'Allemagne depuis le début de la construction Européenne, car il y a derrière celà une raison historique (la peur d'une nouvelle guerre Franco-Allemande, et la construction de l'Europe s'est bati sur cet édifice - Auquel on NE DEVRAIT pas oublier d'inclure l'Italie qui est autant membre fondateur de l'union Européenne, et dont le poids économique est similaire à celui de la France.

Par ailleurs, ce mariage Franco-Allemand que tu appelles de tes voeux à se renforcer n'est qu'un rapprochment politique et économique (bien que sur ce plan la toute la zone Euro est concernée et pas seulement la "francallemagne".

Je pense que ce "mariage" dans ton esprit n'est qu'une manière de défendre ce que l'on perçoit parfois comme un "modèle social" sencé être tipiquement franco-Allemand (malgré les différences importantes entre ces deux visions) en opposition aux politiques de La GB ou de l'Italie qui sont sencées êtres perçues comme plus "de droite" (alors qu'en réalité c'est l'allemagne et la France qui sont aujourd'hui gouvernées par des partis de droite et la GB, L'Espagne et l'Italie sont gouvernées par le centre-gauche...

Si l'allemagne se dote soudain d'un système économique aligné sur le "liberalisme", continuerait-tu à vanter le mariage Franco-Allemand ? au détriment de tout autre relation ?

Je pense personnellement que la France, par sa position géographique (et historique) n'a pas la même destinée que l'Allemagne. Et ce, surtout depuis l'élargissement.
Avant celle-ci les deux pays pouvaient se vanter d'être le coeur géographique de l'union Européenne. Ce n'est plus le cas aujourd'hui, c'est l'Allemagne seule qui est au centre et qui multiplie ses relations avec les "nouveaux Européens", dont beaucoup sont ses voisins. La France à tout a perdre à ne pas vouloir reconnaitre que son avenir n'est pas d'être le coaur de l'Europe (ce qu'elle ne sera jamais, pour des raisons géographiques, démographiques, économiques, et culturelles) , mais d'être l'interface de cette Europe "centrale" avec le monde méditerranéen, dont le développement de la rive sud avec laquelle elle entretien des liens particuliers finira par arriver.

Benjamin [inactive]

Greg, ça me fait toujours sourire quand tu parles de ta vision pour l'Europe comme si cela s'est déjà produit.

Je ne peux plus soutenir l'avancement d'une superpuissance fédérale européenne. Je ne suis pas vraiment d'accord avec la situation actuelle non plus car je crois que c'est largement motivé par la politique néolibérale et les intérêts des grandes entreprises privées, mais il me semble maintenant que l'Europe est en train de devenir une superpuissance militaire, voire nucléaire. Je suis fortement contre ce dernier point parce que cela ne sera jamais compatible avec les principes vertes.

Il faut dire en plus que je doute vraiment que le Royaume-Uni existe dans 15 ans. Greg, est-ce que tu considérerais qu'une Écosse indépendente comme auissi « disqualifiée » que l'Angleterre ? Le Parti national écossais, ce qui est actuellement en train de devenir le parti le plus grand dans le Parlement écossais après l'élection cette année, est très europhile et soutien l'adoption de l'euro en Écosse.

fab

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

Uriel

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

fab

fab

Benjamin [inactive]

Je ne m'ai pas très bien expliqué. Je ne crois pas que l'Europe doive soutenir éternellement les États-Unis –, pas du tout. En plus, je ne crois pas qu'il soit bon que les États-Unis sont une superpuissance. Cependent, il m'inquiète qu'une superpuissance militaire européenne ferait eventuellement des actions qui ressemblent celle des États-Unis contre l'Irak. Penser autrement est d'ignorer l'histoire de l'Europe à mon avis.

Mes opinions s'inspirent essentiellement du pacifisme et de l'écologie inconditionnelle, ce qui sont largement motivés par les croyances religieuses. Tu n'es pas religiuex, alors tu ne pourras probablement pas comprendre cette attitude. Le fait que je suis fondamentalement contre toute l'action militaire et le fait que je tiens ces autres attitudes-ci constituent bien sûr une utopie, mais je crois que cela me donne un rôle pour ma vie.

Malheureusement, je ne suis pas très bien mes propres attitudes écologiques car j'utilise régulièrement l'avion pour voyager (plusieurs fois par an). Cela me dérange beaucoup.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

greg in noord-frankrijk

Mais Benjamin, les convictions personnelles et les réalités militaires sont deux choses distinctes. Non pas qu'il faille s'exonérer de toute considération humaniste — l'échec états-unien est là pour le rappeler à qui serait tenté par un cynisme au ras des pâquerettes. Si les mots ont plus de valeur que les armes, on ne lutte pourtant pas contre un assaillant seulement avec de belles paroles : il faut avoir la capacité à le faire reculer.

Deborah