| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| fab |
MOSCOWI'll go to Moscow this Week-end with my co-workers. It would be a discover of a new world I guess. I'll publish the pictures when I'll come back ! |
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| Deborah |
That's exciting! I'm eager to hear about your reactions to the city. I was last there in 1991, so I'm sure it's very different. | ||||||||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Bon voyage fab ! Et profites-en bien ! Il me tarde de voir les photos. | ||||||||||||||
| fab |
I came back from Moscow two weeks ago. The trip was quick but very instructive.
Moscow is actually a strange city for a westerner. In 2007's Putin's Russia, Moscow spread a quite agressive impression made of ultra-capitalism and Soviet/Stalinian herency... Quite a strange feeling that is reinforced by huge cars, huge streets, almost no pedestrians, no scooters or bikes in the streets.. Very huge adverts for international companies... Or for Putin's party (only for his party.) - I saw one near the red place which was about 100 meters wide and 25 meter high !! And policemen with Sovietic-style hats whatching quite attentively the people, especially those who don't look like Russian. I was quite surprised to see that many of the symbols of the sovietic times are still in place: Lenin or Stalin's statues, communist red stars... and the most impressive landmarks of the city which are the "stalinian skyscrappers" even a new one, in a sort of "las vegas style", has been build for the new "elite class". Only the very city center, around the red place and Kremlin are reletively touristic, relatively old and pedestrian - a sort of "vitrine" of the eternal Russia, with its golden domes and a very chic commercial fashion center just alongside Lenin's tomb. Actually the red place and Kremlin were very impressive when we arrive at night, but the place is much smaller than what I imagined before. also for the Saint Basile church, which is relatively small. In fact the image of the red place that was spread to the west was voluntuaraly made bigger with special angles to impress the western powers during the military demonstations. I'll post some picture later |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
The description you've given makes it sound as though Moscow is bizarrely a bit like an American city in many ways. Would you say that?
I went to St Petersburg earlier this year, and it actually sort of reminded me of Paris. |
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| fab |
definiltly not at all. Even if I spoke about "ultra-capitalism" I'd say it produce something typically Russian in the sense that it is about a country in which the population is still quite poor for most of it (it is especially true outside the city center, and outside Moscow urban area the feel is more is more "third world". I think the way the "new rich" russian lead a capitalist way of life in a very caricatural way, maybe in the purpose of miming what they percieve as being western. This vision of the west is miles away from our social democracies of western Europe, but is also quite far from the high income American society who have learn to deal with capitalism since ever. what is I felt quite new in Russia during the few years of Putin's reign is a valorisation of the soviet times, not in the economic field, but in the national, political, military ones, etc. Even today most of the city is made of building of Kroutchev period - those blocks were preconstrudted and uniformized. I fell that globally Moscow has still a strong feel of communist times. I think it has more to see to China in that way (a socity based on the old comunist structure that promotes hard-capitalism). I agree that it is somthing unusual and difficult to categorize if we follow the traditional way of thinking in terms of "left or right" in western Europe. the red place by night 
by day 
The Kremlin 
Just to remember that we have to vote for Putin 
a stalinian skyscrapper behind a narrow street 
impossible to cross such a street... 
view from hotel 
The Kremlin 
Kroutchev/brejnev's constructions 
memories of the communism 
street views 
new constructions 
we don't see such adverts in Paris...  [/img]
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
That's certainly true. I think it would be a bit like trying to categorise past Western European leaders according to modern Western European thinking in terms of 'left-wing' and 'right-wing'. Even those from not so long ago — Winston Churchill, for example, was a Conservative and is thus viewed as 'right-wing' and was definitely not a 'socialist', but was he really an advocate of 'economic liberalism' in the modern sense? I don't think so. English Wikipedia describes Putin's United Russia party as 'centrist', 'conservative' and 'Putanist', but I'm not sure if that's from a Western European (or perhaps North American) perspective, or from a Russian perspective. I can't even begin to imagine what might be considered 'centrist' or 'conservative' in Russia — if those concepts even exist there at all, I'm sure their meanings would be very different from what you or I would understand by them. |
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| Elaine |
Lovely pictures, Fab! Did you get a chance to hang out at the clubs? I've often wondered (well, not really) how the social scene is in Moscow.
And if I may: red place > Red Square stalinian skyscrappers > altho' "Stalinian" isn't incorrect, it sounds ugly to my ears (maybe that's the intent). I prefer the term Stalinesque skyscraper Kroutchev > for some reason the French spelling of this name looks so "un-Russian"!  As if spelling it Krushchev makes it any more Russian. 
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| fab |
I think "putinist" may be the rightest word to describe his regime, it does not have much common points with other classifications I think.
We have been in a clud one night. they does not seem to be so much in Moscow. Actually that's not very different form other night clubs on earth. Russia seems to be very "90's style of techno musics" as concerns the music. the main difference is the price of vodka, which was less than water... I'm afraid I don't remember clearly how I managed to come back to the hotel
In french we said "gratte-ciels Staliniens" |
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| Deborah |
Fab, the Russian word is площадь, which can be translated into English as "square" or "plaza", but we say "Red Square". |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Merci d'avoir partagé ces photos, fab.
Celle-ci me fait penser à une région de la RDA que j'avais traversée, quelques années après la chute du Mur.
Actually the spelling is Khrouchtchev for Хрущёв, where <щ> stands for either /ɕʨ/ or /ʃt͡ʃ/, both to be pronounced in one row. In Хрущёв I think it might be /ɕʨ/ rather than /ʃt͡ʃ/, but I'm not sure. russe, ukrainien <щ> → /ɕʨ/ ou /ʃt͡ʃ/ bulgare <щ> → /ʃt/ polonais <ść> → /ɕʨ/ polonais <szcz> → /ʃt͡ʃ/ ou /ʂt͡ʂ/ tchèque <šč> → /ʃt͡ʃ/ I believe /ʃʲt͡͡ʃʲ/ to be an equivalent transcription for /ɕʨ/, but I'm not certain. However, /ɕt͡ɕ/ is the same as /ɕʨ/. |
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| Deborah |
Although the letter щ is described (for English speakers) as sounding like the "shch" in fresh cheese, I've never heard anyone pronounce it like that. What they say is more like "shsh" as in "fresh shoes". But the "t" in the French transliteration is obviously there because of this insistence on pronouncing щ like "shch" (or "chtch" in French). By the way, another transliteration mistake is that ё is actually pronounced like "yo" in English (but without the "u" sound at the end). And all voiced vowels are unvoiced when they occur at the end of a word, so that "v" should really be an "f". I think an accurate French transliteration would be more like "Khrouchchof". In English it would be "Khrushshof", but you'd have to know that the "u" and "o" should be long vowels, not short. Nice pictures, fab -- they bring back memories. But those huge billboards are definitely something new since I was there. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Thanks for that explanation, Deborah. From what I gathered, the letter <щ> was originally a mix of <ш> & <ч>, <ш> being /ʃ/ whereas <ч> stands for /t͡ʃ/, hence the misconception : <щ> = <ш> + <ч> → <щ> = /ʃ/ + /t͡ʃ/, although it's only /ʃ/ that's doubled, correct ? It seems, however, that the pronounciation of <щ> is mouillée (palatalised), so we'd have : <щ> = /ʃ͡ʃʲ/ or /ʃ͡ɕ/. Do you agree ?
As for <щ> transcription into French, the traditional convention is <chtch> as is <schtsch> for German. As you said it's not the only feature inconsistent with Russian phonology since /ʲo/ = <ёв> final is rendered <ev> (it used to be <eff>), like <Gorbatchev> for <Горбачёв>. That said, final <ев>, when preceded by a vowel, is generally rendered by <ïev> : <Дудаев> → <Doudaïev>. Also, final <ев> after a consonant can be <iev> : <Тургенев> → <Tourgueniev>, probably because it was written so before the current <ev> standard was set. |
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| Deborah |
I don't know the symbols, but since the first one appears to be a doubled sound followed by something that I assume is the symbol for palatization, I'd say the first one could be correct.
In recent years, I've noticed that certain ballet dancers' names are being transliterated a bit more correctly. For example, "Soloviev" is now being spelled "Solovyov". They're still not taking into account the Russian pronunciation rules in the transliteration (unvoiced final consonants and unvoiced "o" being pronounced like "a", which would result in something like "Salavyof"), but it's a start. |
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| Uriel |
So what about Moscow seems "not European"? I always hear Europeans speak as if it were some other part of the world, but seeing as it is teeming with white people, and I associate the architectural styles with Europe (as opposed to Middle Eastern or Asian or African), it always seems like just another part of Europe to me, from my outsider's perspective. But it seems to strike others as eminently foreign in some fundamental way. | ||||||||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
It's just another European paradox. Well, Europe is a paradox per se... | ||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
I have to say that I don't usually include Russia when I think of 'Europe', whereas I certainly include countries such as Latvia, Lithuana and Estonia which were part of the Soviet Union. I agree with Uriel though that to separate 'Russia' from 'Europe' is arbitrary — Russia is predominantly Christian, Russian is a Slavic language, most people in Russia look and dress like most people from the rest of Europe, Russian music and art is not uniquely distinct from European music and art in general, and when I've met Russian people, they don't stand out as wildly different in terms of social behaviour compared to people from elsewhere in Europe either. | ||||||||||||||
| fab |
Is Moscow in Europe? well that's a big question... Actually Moscow is offically at the west of the Ural chain, so IS supposed to be in Europe.
The problem is that it is the capital of a country that is at about 80% situated in Asia. When you are from western continental Europe and you go there you have definitly the felling of being in a very different place - the recent economical regime makes it having a lot of common points with the other big communist countries such as China. Personally when I was in Moscow I had the feeling of both being in Europe and being in other continent.
Actually I don't associate "white" (which does not means a clear notion for me) with "European". USA in mainly white, Argentina, Uruguay, Canada, Australia, etc. are also populated with mainly "white" populations without being "European".
actually yes, Moscow is more "European" in the sense than most people looks "white" and are of christian herency, than middle eastern or African, but is not necesserally more exotic. I think I would feel much more at home in Algeria than in Russia (and that's actually geographically much closer from Paris than Moscow is - about two hours of flight vs about 4 hours for Moscow...) Yes, Moscow is farther from Paris than many places in Africa... so you can imagine that"s different on many points (different alphabet, orthodox religious architecture... and of course climate which is much more harsher than the relatively mild climate of the rest of Europe. concerning architectural ambiance, once again Algerian urban ambiance would be much more familair for me than Moscow would be. of course there is a sort of "European architecture" in the wider sense, but not more than in the USA or Canada, and probably much less than in Argentina for exemple |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
From a certain point of view though, all of the Americas (some parts more than others) plus Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa etc. could be seen as sort of 'European', even though they are not geographically part of Europe. I've very occasionally heard people suggest, in semi-seriousness, that Canada should consider applying for EU membership. I can see their point — the main reason for rejecting Canada would be its geographical location (and the economic implications of this). But I can understand why the idea of Canada joining the EU might appeal to some Europeans who reject Turkey primarily on 'cultural' grounds. |
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| Uriel |
I would agree; that's why I always think of the ex-colonial areas as sort of "post-European", in that the people are predominately of European descent, the dominant culture is heavily European in tradition, and you can look at them as really far-flung satellite regions of Europe, albeit with indigenous influences. I imagine to outsiders (non-Westerners, I suppose) the dynamic between EU and the US looks mainly like a family squabble. And from that perspective, considering Russia some how fundamentally different from Europe makes little sense, which is why I was curious to see what it' like from other perspectives.
So it sounds like you have the sense of Moscow being a sort of transitional zone between Europe and points east. Andf the economic disparity only heightens the sense of differnece. Do you think it would be different if it were more prosperous and stable? More "European", more familiar? Or are there fundamental non-European influences that would color it anyway? (Although, as a French person who feels a strong sense of familiarity with North African influences, that may not be an issue!) |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Yes. Equally, from my so-called 'far-left' (or Green, as I'd prefer to call it) viewpoint, the differences between the EU and the US are very slight in many ways. Both are highly consumerist societies and are operating in an unsustainable fashion which is destroying the environment, both are very much focussed on 'economic growth', and both have consistently failed to reject violence by participating in wars and creating nuclear weapons. I do find it amusing when some Europeans go down the 'America is bad, Europe is good' route (as I myself probably have in the past). Sorry folks, but no — it's all sh*t, basically.
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| fab |
In that way I agree. If you think Europe in its wider meaning, including all predominantly of christian herency, indo-European languages and "white" populations as being "European then I would of course include Russia in it withoout hesitation. But "European" is now more and more associated with European union, to which politically Russia is clearly in a very opposite position. concerning the question of 'white' it is interesting to realize that in Moscow a lot of Russian people are not what is usually called "white" by many. you can see many people completly with mongoid features and others who seem mixed, of also somehow middle eastern or central Asian looks. you just have to look at a map of Russia to realize that it is difficult fot it to be populated with just pure "whites"... |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
I don't really conflate 'European' with the European Union, because a number very obviously 'European' countries are not members. Or are you actually saying that you view Switzerland as 'less European' than, say, France? Actually, I always think it's weird when people say things like 'Poland joined Europe in 2004', when it was there already.
You could say the same about Paris or London (etc.). Actually, I noticed that when I was in America earlier this year, some people were surprised when I told them that many British people are not 'white'. I remember going shopping one evening with two girls that my friend knew, and they 'warned' me that there would be a lot of black people at the shopping centre — they said they thought that I might not be used to being around 'non-white' people.
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| fab |
I think that nowadays "Europe", in current speach has two different meanings, depending of the context. One meaning means "European Union" and the other means "from the geographical area called Europe". In the first meaning Switzerland is not in Europe, in the second of course it is. I agree that the original meaning is the second one only, but, as you noticed it is usually said such things has "Europe has decided this" " Poland entred Europe", etc. which is obviously understood as meaning "European union"... The word "American" has also two meanings. One meaning "from United States of America" and the second "from the Americas". depending of the context we understand which meaning is made. [/quote]You could say the same about Paris or London (etc.). [/quote] Yes, but also from Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Marseille or Berlin.
That very true, many American tend to think that their country is the only one made with different populations. I discovered it is the way they seem to have been raised with the idea of "melting pot" and such things. They often forget that many countries are also "multiracial" and some of them are much more than the US themselves, such as Brazil and most latin American countries - where "pure whites" are minoritary, as well as other "etnies". most people being more or less mixed. [/quote] |
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| Elaine |
I think that's so true. Growing up (and still to this day), all I kept hearing from teachers, politicians, and the media is how America (US) is a great big melting pot of cultures, races, and ethnicities, etc., while the images we get from the UK or any of the Germanic countries are white, pasty faces. So naturally, we get this impression that the US is the most multiracial country on the planet. And forget about the countries to our South! Many Anglos I've encountered seem to think all us Central and South Americans make up on big happy Hispanic/Latino "race". |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
It's true that Russia can be regarded as much "peripheral" to Western Europe as Northern Africa, from a French viewpoint at least. And Asian Russia only more so. |
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| fab |
Concerning Russia, we shouldn't forget that it is geographically closer to China than to most Ewestern European nation - It is also closer to the united States (only 80km separate both sides of Bering strait)...
 [/quote]
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| Uriel |
We remember how close Russia is to us -- it sold us Alaska, after all. And I believe some of the earlier European explorers of California were Russian.
Russian Orthodox church in Alaska Regarding white people in Europe, for the record, outside of Paris and London and US bases, most of the people I saw in Europe were pretty white. Of course, you can go to certain parts of the US and see nothing but white bread wherever you look -- as in Europe, it just depends on where you live. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
That's certainly true — about 98% of people in Scotland are 'white', and outwith Edinburgh and Glasgow it's even higher than that. But even though skin-colour is largely irrelevant here, Scotland is still amongst the most violent places in Western Europe — we find other differences and divisions within our society to emphasise and use as excuses to hate each-other, form rival gangs and attack each-other. (I use 'we' in the loosest sense, of course; I do not personally engage in violent behaviour). | ||||||||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
L'île de Sakhaline (au nord d'Hokkaïdo) appartient toujours à la Russie ! 
De même que l'archipel des Kouriles (microscopique à l'échelle eurasienne), au large du Kamtchatka. 
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| fab |
I whatch on google earth, the shortest distance between Japan and Russia seems to be of about 7kms only.
the shortest distance between France and Russia is of about 1565km. |
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| Deborah |
Not just explorers, but settlers. The Russians built Fort Ross (“Ross” comes from “Rossiya”, which is the Russian word for Russia) in 1812. It’s 90 miles (145 km) north of San Francisco, which is a 2-hour drive if you take a major freeway for most of the drive. If you take the narrow, winding coast highway for the entire distance, it's slower, but much more beautiful. This is the reconstructed chapel: 
The photo above is from the Wikipedia article. Some of the photos in the first linked website show Fort Ross in the fog, which is how it is for much of the summer. (Actually, the photo I posted also shows it in the fog, but not a thick fog. The fog and the brown hill indicate that this was taken in the summer. If everything looks green, that means it's winter or early spring.) |
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| Elaine |
Isn't that somewhere along the banks of the Russian River? I once spent a weekend up at the River with some girlfriends and gay male friends, and unbeknownst to us it turned out to be lesbian pride weekend and the lesbianas were out in force, romping around naked as a jaybird. And let me tell ya, many of the girls weren't neatly landscaped. 
But I digress. It was a lovely place, nonetheless. |
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| Deborah |
Fort Ross is about 10 miles north of where Russian River empties into the Pacific.
And you're right, Russian River is real purty! |
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| Wanderin |
OK, i ve missed a lot, being too busy and haven't met you in Moscow LOL As it's my country and my native city, let me say something ;)
well, i guess you haven't been to Moscow metro or Moscow traffic jam, it's where all wise people hide during bad weather LOL I mean Moscow is the biggest European city with total population... God only knows, in work hours it can be about 15 million or alike. So no pedestrians? Are you kidding or what? In Russia only few people use scooters, and only outside of big cities, but bikers still rock 
Bikes! We dont use bikes as well, what for? Especially in a town where 9 months a year we have winter and you reach your place of work in 2-3 hours of driving or being pulled underground or in bus etc. Russia is a country with big distances you know.
Putin, Evil Putin, again, so what? leave us alone and let just peacefully love our great leader LOOOOLLL
i bet you are not Russian if you noticed this, I go and feel free LOL
why were you surprised? I think it's all very logical... Red star isn't communist any more, it's official symbol of our army, why is it bad? Stalin architecture is great, Moscow State University, Mininistry of foreiggn affairs, are situated there. I think you didn't have any excursions around the city.
you haven't seen Moscow, all the best things are out of the center, but of course you need come in summer coz it's nothing to do there now. But I see according to your pics you were in VDNKh, the biggest expo center, it has very beautiful buildings (in Iranian style for example, great fountains etc.), but you seem to be very concentrated on Lenin and stars and haven't noticed anything else. From this I realize that you didn't like Moscow, but it's OK, I also didn't like Paris
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| Wanderin |
where have you been? I think it was not Russia...When you go outside you see.... God, you can see for example 8th most expensive villa in the world or other town houses for ultra rich people and they are all around Moscow, If you don't know, try to check prices for a flat in this "third world", I bet you don't have so much money, Moscow is the most expensive city in Europe and I assure you, level of life here is one which can be envied, you have quite superficial impressions. Probably Soviet-style blocks don't look very appealing, but flats in Moscow center (by the way I wonder what do you call "Moscow center", Moscow center is as big as whole Paris, where have you been excatly?) are very good, especially in Stalin houses, yup, I'd like to have such.
wow, you felt. can you tell in details? it sounds just funny, coz nothing like this happens, if you call all patriotic things in Russia Soviet, then may be you are right.
You haven't seen any building from Khrushchev period, Moscow government knocks them down and all of them are situated in "living areas", you saw quite modern buildings (i can tell according to the pictures), built in 70s, 80s or so. As for "preconstructed" I have no idea. |
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| fab |
Wanderin, you are too sensitive...
I did not made judgements, but just personal feelings about the things that had more impact on me. I didn't say "this" or "that" is a good or bad thing... just speak about what I noticed, in a very superficial way during a much too short trip for being able to say that I know the Russia that you know. Let me explain if you misunderstood me
I of course agree and I am aware that Moscow is a very huge city - And that many things (that I'm not used of in France) it implies had great impact on me; as the size of the streets, which are much larger than the ones we have in Paris. The feeling I had about that is that, due to the size of the streets I felt much more the presence of cars than of pedestrians in comparision of what I experience in Paris- one again it is not a critic, just an observation. I was really impressed by the number of car, and especially big or luxury cars, limousines or 4x4, etc. to wich I am unused to see in paris at the same level.
Actually, I lived in Montreal where a lot of people use bikes in the streets, where it is winter with -30°C... and which is also a country with big distances. I also saw really a lot of them in Stokholm where the winters are quite hard too, but not noticed as much in Moscow even if I of course know that bikes exist there!. ;)
I don't know if Putin is that "evil", I was just quite shoked to see that such a huge advert can be made for an election - that was quite unusual for me, even Sarkozy's France (who is quite a mediatic megalomaniac!).
I said seing the red star was bad? I thing you interpreted that... we saw so many pictures of Lenin or Stalin statues being brought down that it is interesting to realize that it is not at all the case. I agree with you with the great quality of many of Stalinian constructions, habitations, stalinian skyscrappers, especially the Moscow state university building which impressed me very much.
I agree that a two day trip is much much too short to be able to say that we know a city. I would have seen many more things if I stayed more time. Yes, we have been to the expo center, which has many interesting buildings (I didn't post all my photos). but, as a westerner, taking a picture of a communist symbol is a sort of souvernir of our mental symbol of the country... the same way a tourist in Paris would take a picture of the eiffel tower, of the napolenonian symbols (arc the triomphe)... which are not necessary the most interesting things in Paris in the absolute.
well, believe what you want to believe... |
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| Wanderin |
Thanks for the answer Actually I was a bit ironic and joked about Paris. I liked though I was only 1 day there, but after Moscow it looks very little, yeah, tiny place with tiny streets, actually it can be said about any other place except for Kiev, which was also designed in a soviet big style.
As for bikes, i think it's not part of culture or better it's not our way of life... Chief Executives would never change their Lexus/BMW/Infinity/Range Rover/Maibach/Bentley for a bike. and I'll never change metro for it haha.
I would never think about them in such a way, actually i dont think that anyone pays attention to them, they are not "impressive", i would call them "miserable"
And one more point - if you see some "mongoloid" people in Moscow, you should know that they are NOT Russians, they are illegal immigrants from ex-soviet republics, they are nobody here, doing the hardest and the cheapest work. Russians are only white people, well with little exception of course, but generally they are white. |
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| KSa |
Wanderin, Are all of them illegal immigrants? I thought there had been people who moved from, say, Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, and just settled in Russia during the Soviet Union era. |
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| Wanderin |
Nope, during Soviet era, people didnt move around, it was quite difficult and simply useless, unless you are a military guy or from KGB. They could move if communist party ordered them to do this, for example to build Baikal railway, to build new factory, but Soviet system used prisoners for this kind of work so... I even can't imagin them to move in central Russia for example. Now Central Asian republics excluding Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan (the last one is a closed state, citizens aren't allowed to leave the country) are absolutely poor and it's like all the rest people go in Russia... |
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| KSa |
So why there are so many Russians in Estonia or Ukraine? | ||||||||||||||
| Wanderin |
Russians aren't like guys from Middle Asia, they were sent by party to make all lands prosperious. Asians were and still are non educated, at least not so much to be top managers. | ||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
Wanderin — I'll just say that what you're saying sounds very racist to me although I realise that you probably don't mean it in that way. | ||||||||||||||
| KSa |
Did they make it more prosperous, in your opinion? |
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| KSa |
I hope that what Wanderin wanted to say is that people from Asia are in general less educated, and looking at the figures like, for example, analphabetism rate, it is true in this sense. Of course it is not their fault but the educational system. I have also, however, noticed in Wanderin's post sort of contemptuous suggestion that they are inherently less intelligent or something like this and I strongly oppose it. For example, when I compare educated people from Asia with people from, say, USA or Europe (I met lot of them), sometimes I'm confused who is more and who is less educated. |
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| Wanderin |
In my previous post i ment the following:
Middle Asian countries were always "banana republics", I don't mean ancient times, but let's say last 2 centuries. They were always under Russia, is this fault of Russian authorities that they are still not in 21st century? I can't answer this question, but these countries, like Tajikistan are really poor and they were the same in Soviet times. Soviets gave them lots of money, but I guess most of them was stolen like everything in Soviet days. Now people from these countries can't find even a simple job at home, so they go to Russia, and work, usually they are all illegal immigrants. Russians were and still are the biggest ex-Soviet nation. USSR was based on Russian Empire and the biggest ethnicity was Russians - Slavic people. All science, all best universities were and still are in Russia. You can't deny that. So Communist Party sent the best people to "rule" in other parts of the Soviet Union. And, surprise, they were Russians. It's just the fact, no any racism. And now, all ex-USSR, except Baltic countries (though even here I meet exceptions) goes to Russia to get high education. >>Did they make it more prosperous, in your opinion? I can't answer this question. I wasn't in Soviet Baltic States, I can't compare what was before joining USSR and what was after. Even if there was anything good, it was destroyed and quickly forgotten by local inhabitans as it always happens when new power comes. |
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