Porthos
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Mutual intelligibility between English and Nordic languagesBeing that the mutual intelligibility between English and Nordic languages is next to nothing, and that English vocabulary is full of words of French origin, would you say that French is more intelligible to English speakers than Nordic languages are? At least in the written form, I would say an English speaker would have a greater comprehension of French than a Nordic languages like Swedish.
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Sander
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Re: Mutual intelligibility between English and Nordic langua | Porthos wrote: | | Being that the mutual intelligibility between English and Nordic languages is next to nothing |
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David
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I agree with Sander on this one. The core vocabulary of English is Germanic and I can see many similarities between the Scandinavian languages and English, and Frencgh as well.
It all depends on what you're reading. Simpler sentences such as "I am sick" would be closer to the SL, whereas as something more complex like "National Scineitific Observation Center" would be closer to French.
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Porthos
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It's just that Germanic languages are generally speaking, much less mutually intelligible than Romance languages often are. Most of our technical vocabulary is of Romance origin, so these words would be easily recognizable in French, at least in written form. The core vocabulary which English shares with Nordic languages are not easily identifiable, because they are so divergent from each other. I can read an entire text in one of the Nordic languages and not understand more than a handful of words.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Quote: | | something more complex like "National Scineitific Observation Center" would be closer to French. |
Only just, incidentally, in the case of Dutch:
Le Centre scientifique national d'Observation (French)
Het nationale Wetenschappelijke Centrum van de Observatie (Dutch)
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Sander
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| Benjamin wrote: | | Quote: | | something more complex like "National Scineitific Observation Center" would be closer to French. |
Only just, incidentally, in the case of Dutch:
Le Centre scientifique national d'Observation (French)
Het nationale Wetenschappelijke Centrum van de Observatie (Dutch) |
Hmm probably "Nationaal Wetenschappelijk Observatiecentrum" would be more likely.
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Porthos
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See, with your French/Dutch example, as a native English speaker, I would clearly understand the French version. Much more so than the Dutch example.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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Only because of one word — scientifique vs. wetenschappelijk
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Loic
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I think 'nationaal', 'observatie' and 'centrum' have roots in Latin. They are not root Germanic words.
In other words, even limited understanding of the Dutch phrase is contingent upon our stock of Latin derived vocabulary.
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Sander
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| loic wrote: | I think 'nationaal', 'observatie' and 'centrum' have roots in Latin. They are not root Germanic words.
In other words, even limited understanding of the Dutch phrase is contingent upon our stock of Latin derived vocabulary. |
I believe the "Germanic" variant would be "Landelijk Wetenschappelijk Waarnemingsgebouw".
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Loic
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Sander: The purely Germanic variation is totally incomprehensible to me, I must say. Oh well, my limited stock of Dutch would have me guessing that 'landelijk' has something to do with country (het land), 'Wetenschappelijk' suggests knowing something (weten) while the last word might be a physical structure or building (de gebouw).
In contrast, I cannot think of a purely Germanic version for the English language name. What is the Anglo-Saxon synonym for 'scientific', to begin with?
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Sander
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| loic wrote: |
In contrast, I cannot think of a purely Germanic version for the English language name. What is the Anglo-Saxon synonym for 'scientific', to begin with? |
Hmm what about "Folk knowledge building for followings" 
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fab
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| Quote: | Most of our technical vocabulary is of Romance origin[img]
Maybe, but you don't speak a every day language with only technical words.
If you don't understant the core vocabulary of French, even if you would recognise some "technical" vocabulary the sentence won't have a meaning.
Also, a lot of "technical words" in Dutch or German are also of latin origins. English is not an exception.
I think you understand much better french than Dutch because you also speak Spanish.[/img] |
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Porthos
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Well yes. I understand much of the core vocabulary of French because it is very similar to Spanish, at least on paper. "le, la, il, elle, de, pour", etc. I know that is why I understand a lot more French than Dutch. But, what I'm trying to get you to realize is that the words of Dutch which share a common origin with English, are so very different, as to not be identifiable for an English speaker. So, the words which are of the same origin in Dutch and English, I can't usually recognize, because they are so different, while, I recognize much of the French words of common origin as Spanish, because they have retained more of a similarity to each other. This means that I understand much of French, while I don't understand much of Dutch. I'm not trying to say that English is more like French, only that Dutch is not nearly as easy to understand for an English speaker, as say, Spanish would be for a French speaker.
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fab
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| Quote: | | are so very different, as to not be identifiable for an English speaker. |
I'm sorry, but when I've been in netherlands I could be able to understand so many very usefull words (not specific technical things), thanks to my knowledge of English. I already gave a list of exemples in langcafe about that.
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Porthos
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Well, aside from a few words, this is not the case. As an English speaker, trying to read a text in Dutch or German is much more difficult than a Spanish speaker trying to read French. An English speaker can really only make out a few words in a Dutch text.
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David
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| Porthos wrote: | | Well, aside from a few words, this is not the case. As an English speaker, trying to read a text in Dutch or German is much more difficult than a Spanish speaker trying to read French. An English speaker can really only make out a few words in a Dutch text. |
Once again, it all depends:
English: apple
Dutch: appel
French: Pomme
Spanish: Manzana
English: what
Dutch: wat
French: que
Spanish:que
English:gold
Dutch: goud
French: or
Spanish: oro
English: day
Dutch: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
English: cow
Dutch: koe
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
English:cold
Dutch: koud
French: fred
Spanish frio
Proununciation wise, I think English and Dutch are closer(Sander please verify)
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Sander
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| David wrote: |
Proununciation wise, I think English and Dutch are closer(Sander please verify) |
Yes of all the major languages. I'll add Low Saxon.
English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel (sounds the same as English)
Dutch: appel
French: Pomme
Spanish: Manzana
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
French: que
Spanish:que
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
French: or
Spanish: oro
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg (Day+[x])
Dutch: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh (sounds the same as "cow")
Dutch: koe
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt (The first one sounds virtually the same)
Dutch: koud
French: fred
Spanish frio
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fab
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| Quote: | English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt (The first one sounds virtually the same)
Dutch: koud
French: fred
Spanish frio
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just a little correction : French : froid
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Tiffany
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Not that it will help much, but I'll add Italian for fun.
English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel
Dutch: appel
French: Pomme
Spanish: Manzana
Italian: Mela
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
French: que
Spanish:que
Italian: che
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
French: or
Spanish: oro
Italian: oro
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg
Dutch: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
Italian: giorno/dì
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh
Dutch: koe
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
Italian: vacca/mucca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt
Dutch: koud
French: froid
Spanish frio
Italian: freddo
Look at how close the respective langauges are! Romance with Romance, Germanic with Germanic.
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Porthos
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Here's a question. Have any of you English speakers, (with no prior knowledge of other Germanic languages) tried to read an internet article in Dutch or German? I have tried, and I only make out maybe 5% of the text. But because of Spanish, I can read a Portuguese text and make out a lot of it, and I can understand a fair share of French and Italian. English does not come close to that same connection that the Romance language share.
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David
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| Porthos wrote: | | Have any of you English speakers, (with no prior knowledge of other Germanic languages) tried to read an article in Dutch or German? |
I have with little prior knowledge, and I understood about 35% of a Dutch text and around 10% of a German text.
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Loic
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I must add that there are plenty of false cognates in French that would mislead an English-speaking reader into thinking that he has understood the passage when in fact, he has understood nothing.
My French teacher once warned me that the more similar or identical a French word is to its English counterpart, the more I should beware of its difference.
Thus sa santé s’altère doesn't just mean that his or her health is changing; it is actually deteriorating.
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Porthos
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David,
Can you give me an example of a Dutch text in which you understood 35% of? And what limited knowledge did you have of Dutch? I only know a few basic Dutch words and phrases, and I can't understand more than a few words in a Dutch text.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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Since no-one else has added German, here we are:
English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel
Dutch: appel
German: Apfel
French: pomme
Spanish: manzana
Italian: mela
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
German: was
French: que
Spanish:que
Italian: che
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
German: Gold
French: or
Spanish: oro
Italian: oro
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg
Dutch: dag
German: Tag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
Italian: giorno/dì
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh
Dutch: koe
German: Kuh
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
Italian: vacca/mucca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt
Dutch: koud
German: kalt
French: froid
Spanish frio
Italian: freddo
| Porthos wrote: | | Here's a question. Have any of you English speakers, (with no prior knowledge of other Germanic languages) tried to read an internet article in Dutch or German? I have tried, and I only make out maybe 5% of the text. But because of Spanish, I can read a Portuguese text and make out a lot of it, and I can understand a fair share of French and Italian. English does not come close to that same connection that the Romance language share. |
I used to be able to understand Dutch websites reasonably well until I was about 13, but then I kind of lost the ability.
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David
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| Porthos wrote: | David,
Can you give me an example of a Dutch text in which you understood 35% of? |
Here's a few sentences from the Dutch Wikipedia which I easily understood:
Nederland is een West-Europees land, begrensd door de Noordzee, Duitsland en België.
was een Russisch schrijver en publicist, een van de bekendste auteurs uit de Russische literatuur.
Wikipedia is een project van de Wikimedia Foundation
Wat is Wikipedia?
| Quote: |
And what limited knowledge did you have of Dutch? |
I know about 700 words, and am aware of the differences between Dutch and English.
------------------------------------------------
If you are really interested in mutual intelligibility, especially among Germanic languages then I suggest you check out the really cool Folkspraak project (link in my sig).
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Fredrik
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English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel
Dutch: appel
German: Apfel
Norwegian: eple
French: pomme
Spanish: manzana
Italian: mela
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
German: was
Norwegian: hva
French: que
Spanish:que
Italian: che
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
German: Gold
Norwegian: gull
French: or
Spanish: oro
Italian: oro
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg
Dutch: dag
German: Tag
Norwegian: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
Italian: giorno/dì
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh
Dutch: koe
German: Kuh
Norwegian: ku
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
Italian: vacca/mucca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt
Dutch: koud
German: kalt
Norwegian: kald
French: froid
Spanish frio
Italian: freddo
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Harrenys Targaryen
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English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel
Dutch: appel
German: Apfel
Norwegian: eple
Danish: æble
French: pomme
Spanish: manzana
Italian: mela
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
German: was
Norwegian: hva
Danish: hvad
French: que
Spanish:que
Italian: che
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
German: Gold
Norwegian: gull
Danish: guld
French: or
Spanish: oro
Italian: oro
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg
Dutch: dag
German: Tag
Norwegian: dag
Danish: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
Italian: giorno/dì
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh
Dutch: koe
German: Kuh
Norwegian: ku
Danish: ko
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
Italian: vacca/mucca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt
Dutch: koud
German: kalt
Norwegian: kald
Danish: kold
French: froid
Spanish frio
Italian: freddo
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Porthos
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| David wrote: | | Porthos wrote: | David,
Can you give me an example of a Dutch text in which you understood 35% of? |
Here's a few sentences from the Dutch Wikipedia which I easily understood:
Nederland is een West-Europees land, begrensd door de Noordzee, Duitsland en België.
was een Russisch schrijver en publicist, een van de bekendste auteurs uit de Russische literatuur.
Wikipedia is een project van de Wikimedia Foundation
Wat is Wikipedia?
| Quote: |
And what limited knowledge did you have of Dutch? |
I know about 700 words, and am aware of the differences between Dutch and English. |
See, I understood very little of what you just provided, as I don't know more than a few Dutch words and phrases, and am only aware of a few of the differences between English and Dutch. You are aware of them, so you are not like the average layperson, English speaker. I'm talking about someone who is not familiar with the language.
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fab
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| Quote: | Here's a few sentences from the Dutch Wikipedia which I easily understood:
Nederland is een West-Europees land, begrensd door de Noordzee, Duitsland en België.
was een Russisch schrijver en publicist, een van de bekendste auteurs uit de Russische literatuur.
Wikipedia is een project van de Wikimedia Foundation
Wat is Wikipedia?
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Thanks to my english (limited) knowledge, I could (or think to understand, maybe wrongly in some cases) understand in this Dutch text :
"Nederland" = Netherlands
"is" = is
"een" = an
"West" = west
"Europees" = European
"land" = land
"begrensd" = ? but I guess it means situated, thanks to the context.
"door" = door, but I think in this case it means "which open to"
"de" = the
"Noordzee" = northsee
"Duitsland" = Germany
"en" = and
"België" = belgium
"was" = what
"een" = an
"Russisch" = russian
"schrijver" = ? maybe writer ?
"en" = and
"publicist" = publicist
"een" = an
"van" = from
"de" = the
"bekendste" = ? better ?
"auteurs" = auteurs (french word!)
"uit" = out, in the meaning of "taken from" I think
"de" = the
"Russische" = Russian
"literatuur" = Litterature
"Wikipedia" = Wikipedia
"is" = is
"een" = a
"project" = project
"van" = from
"de" = the
"Wikimedia Foundation" = wikipemadia foundation (name)
"Wat" = what
"is" = is
"Wikipedia" = wikipedia
I have to say that this text seems to me very similar to english, a lot of very usual words are the exact same ones. And a lot of others are quite recongnisable, especially when we try to hear them (en (and), wat, etc.)
| Quote: | I must add that there are plenty of false cognates in French that would mislead an English-speaking reader into thinking that he has understood the passage when in fact, he has understood nothing.
My French teacher once warned me that the more similar or identical a French word is to its English counterpart, the more I should beware of its difference |
Yes, It is true that a difficulty of a french learning English is to learn the false friends. They are so many. Some may mean sometimes the opposite, and sometimes, they are more or less in the same field of concepts, but quite different inside it.
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fab
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English: apple
Low Saxon: Eppel
Dutch: appel
German: Apfel
Norwegian: eple
Danish: æble
French: pomme
Spanish: manzana
Italian: mela
Catalan : poma
English: what
Low Saxon: wat
Dutch: wat
German: was
Norwegian: hva
Danish: hvad
French: que
Spanish:que
Italian: che
Catalan: que
English:gold
Low Saxon: gold
Dutch: goud
German: Gold
Norwegian: gull
Danish: guld
French: or
Spanish: oro
Italian: oro
Catalan: or
English: day
Low Saxon: Deeg
Dutch: dag
German: Tag
Norwegian: dag
Danish: dag
French: jour
Spanish: dia
Italian: giorno/dì
Catalan: dia
English: cow
Low Saxon: Kauh
Dutch: koe
German: Kuh
Norwegian: ku
Danish: ko
French: vache
Spanish: vaca
Italian: vacca/mucca
Catalan: vaca
English:cold
Low Saxon: Kolt/Kalt
Dutch: koud
German: kalt
Norwegian: kald
Danish: kold
French: froid
Spanish: frio
Italian: freddo
Catalan: fred
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Benjamin [inactive]
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I agree, the Dutch sentences posted above are similar to English. I was able to guess their meanings as well.
| Quote: | | "bekendste" = ? better ? |
My guess for 'bekendste' was 'most known', which I then looked up and found to be correct. The Dutch for 'better' is actually just 'beter'.
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Fredrik
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| Benjamin wrote: |
I used to be able to understand Dutch websites reasonably well until I was about 13, but then I kind of lost the ability. |
Your statement reminded me of something Bill Bryson writes in "Neither Here Nor There: Travels in Europe", that when you hear Dutch you think you ought to understand it. It sounds so familiar that you are amazed that you don't understand it. It seems like many Germanophones feel that although Dutch is unintelligible, it is mysteriously familiar, like a forgotten play language from your childhood.
(Don't worry, Sander, I know that Dutch objectively seen is just another Germanic language that can be applied to the both the highest and lowest of human pursuits.) 
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Sander
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| Fredrik wrote: |
(Don't worry, Sander, I know that Dutch objectively seen is just another Germanic language that can be applied to the both the highest and lowest of human pursuits.) |
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