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Porthos

Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography

I have a tendency to associate languages with the places they're spoken, the people who speak them, and the culture they represent. And due to my geographic location, I will often primarily associate a language like English with the United States, and Spanish with Mexico, whereas most Europeans would probably associate English with England, and Spanish with Spain.

So to me, when I think of the English language, my mind sees sunny skies, sandy beaches, and palm trees of California and Florida, whereas for most Europeans, typical northern European things come to mind.

When I think of Dutch and German, I think of the northern European climate and landscape, a Nordic-type people, bland culture, northern European cuisine, beer, pubs, etc. And for most Europeans, English brings to mind things associated with England or the British Isles, which are all very much like the things associated with the Netherlands and Germany. So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, ), the natural tendency is to see English as being represenative of a Germanic culture, and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others.

But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.

In some ways, I see English as being tied to Black Americans, and their very distinct culture. I picture the AAVE of the inner cities of America, and somehow cannot for the life of me see much of a similaritiy between that culture and people, and the culture of northern Europe.

I see English as being tied to the inhabitants of New York, and I think mainly of all the Italians and Jews and their very distinct sub-culture and accents, and I can't possibly associate that culture with those of northern Europe.

In my mind I also see all of the tanned skin, bikin-clad, vibrant peoples of southern California, Miami, Florida, and Hawaii, and Australia, and the warm, sub-tropical and or mediterranean climates associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that are not of northern European descent, but primarily Latin-American and Pacific Islander.

Similarly, with Spanish, Spain doesn't come to mind so much as Latin America does. When I think of Spanish my mind sees the sun-scorched stretches of desert in Mexico, and the tropics of Central America and the Caribbean. I think of hot, humid rainforests, warm beaches, deserts, Afro-influenced music and dance, beer (not wine like the viticulture of Spain), Mestizo and Mulatto peoples, spicy food, coffee plantations and coffee itself, etc. Much of those things are not things which we would normally associate with Spain or Latin Europe, but most Europeans probably think of Spain in association with Spanish because of their close proximity to the country. As a Californian, a very different image comes to mind.
greg in noord-frankrijk

How others may look at yourself will always be a hard thing to understand. Or, put it differently, the very impression you make on others is something you can hardly capture. To me, the very first impression made by native Anglophones is Anglo-Saxon, whatever the background or the geography (Alaska, Florida, England etc).

Likewise, the very first impression I get from Hispanophones is Hispanicity, even if there are indeed blatant differences between Asturians and Peruvians.
Benjamin [inactive]

Re: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography

Porthos wrote:
whereas most Europeans would probably associate English with England

I agree that most English people would associate English primarily with England. But I'd question whether England is really the first place that comes to mind when other Europeans think of the English language.

Let's face it — England is not the main reason why English is the most commonly learnt second language in Europe. I've met many people from all over Europe over the past few years, and it's always been obvious to me that the country they associate the English language with most is the United States.

The whole of Europe is obsessed with America. On the other hand, it's quite hard to find people with any real interest in England.

Porthos wrote:
and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others.

I find it very hard to imagine why anyone with at least some basic knowledge of European languages wouldn't 'naturally' see English as a Germanic language.
Porthos

Quote:
I find it very hard to imagine why anyone with at least some basic knowledge of European languages wouldn't 'naturally' see English as a Germanic language.


No doubt, no doubt. It's just that many find it hard to imagine that the culture associated with the English language is one akin to that of other Germanic speaking countries. Many people think in terms of culture and langauge going hand-in-hand, as cultures can be transmitted through language. So it might be harder for say, a Cuban-Floridian to identify the English which he speaks with a Germanic culture, while he easily identifies other Germanic languages like Dutch and German with that "Germanic" culture, for lack of a better word.


In-N-Uit, dat is wat een hamburger allen over is! .........(It's my Dutch translation of an American fast-food commercial song). For those of you from the West Coast, try to figure out what it means. Hint hint -- The first six words are nearly identical to their English counterparts.
Porthos

Quote:
I agree that most English people would associate English primarily with England. But I'd question whether England is really the first place that comes to mind when other Europeans think of the English language.


I disagree. Consider that most of the Europeans on this forum, who learned English, studied standard British English, rather than American English. And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
I disagree. Consider that most of the Europeans on this forum, who learned English, studied standard British English, rather than American English.

I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:

Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British

I haven't seen enough of the others to have made an impression.

Porthos wrote:
And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture.

I sometimes wonder if it's actually more the other way round — that people project their impression of the United States onto England. Similar to how Americans sometimes seem to project their impression of Mexico onto Spain.

One example of this: When I first knew my French friend, he talked about education systems as though the system we have in England was the same as the system in the United States, and he seemed to assume that I would naturally believe in the American Dream. I don't believe in the American Dream, and I don't know many English people who do either.

(Incidentally, I think that my French friend is actually a lot more 'American' than me).
Porthos

Quote:
I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:

Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British




That's very difficult to say, being that the written language is based on Standard British English and Standard American English, which are not very different at all, with the exception of a few minor spelling differences such as "center-centre" and "color-colour", and words such as "whilst vs while".

In the above post of yours, your English would be identical to mine, except for one word, -- "learnt", instead of my "learned", where I would use "-ed" to form the past tense, you use "-t".







Quote:
I sometimes wonder if it's actually more the other way round — that people project their impression of the United States onto England. Similar to how Americans sometimes seem to project their impression of Mexico onto Spain.


Only ignorant Americans would project their impression of Mexico onto Spain, although honestly, this would include a large chunk of Americans I'm afraid, who are notoriously ignorant of the outside world.

However, I would think that at least most Europeans would think of the U.S. as being a cultural extension of England rather than the other way around simply because, England came first. England transmitted her culture/language to a colony made up of people from England on another continent. English was in existance for roughly 1500 years before the 13 American colonies were even thought of. Just as many people here feel that the only correct form of Spanish is that of Spain, because in their eyes, the language was originally spoken in Spain, and as such, any other variety outside of Spain must be a corrupted, water-down, inferior product of the original, "pure" variety. A lot of Spaniards look down on Mexicans for their Spanish because of this, and many retarded Anglophones here in the U.S. repeat this nonsense all the time, and it drives me mad. The same people who scream at their employees and add an "o" to everything they say. -- " I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?"
Irrintzi

Quote:
I suspect that this is partly because Standard British English is the standard form of English used by the EU institutions. And to a large extent, this would have been determined by what their teachers, from at least a generation before, would have learnt. Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:

Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British


So, what for me??








Quote:
" I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?"


That remind me a summer hit of an Ivorian group,
In Africa, French Abidjan street language is largely influenced by african languages,

Premier Gaou:
extract:

"C'est dans ma galère que la go Antou m'a quittéo
(...)
Dieu merci pou' moyé
Je savais chanté un peuo
J'ai fais ma cassetto
On me voit à la téléo
Matin, midi, soi'
C'est moi je chante à la radioô
Antou à vu ça, elle dit : "Lé gaou a percéo"
Attend je vais partir lé coupéo"

Benjamin [inactive]

Irrintzi wrote:
So, what for me??

British, I think.

Porthos:

What I meant was that there seems to be an image of 'English-speaking culture' which is based largely upon how the United States portrays itself through the international media. As a result, people's perceptions of the United States are sometimes projected onto English-speaking countries in general.

Bear in mind that most Europeans who aren't British or Irish have far greater exposure to American culture than to British culture, even though the United States is geographically much further away. It might come as a surprise to you that most French people, for example, have never been to Britain, probably don't really know much about what it's like here, and probably aren't really interested either. On the other hand, the United States is seen as a fascinating country all over Europe.
Yelina

Benjamin wrote:
It might come as a surprise to you that most French people, for example, have never been to Britain, probably don't really know much about what it's like here, and probably aren't really interested either. On the other hand, the United States is seen as a fascinating country all over Europe.

Few years back, I was really interested in going to England and even try to find a job there. But when I went to London, I didn't really appreciate the way of living (nor the landscapes beyond the city) and from this time, my interests turned towards the United-States. (I must add that I certainly didn't stay long enough in England to put ut with the English life style and that I wasn't in the good family to combine with it either).
Liz

Benjamin wrote:
Looking at what I've noticed from the language used by the Europeans who are not native English speakers on this forum, here are my impressions:

Pauline — British
Fab — American
Greg — British
Fredrik — American
Walker — American
Liz — British
KSa — British

Interesting. As far as I can judge, I agree with you on Fab, Greg, Pauline (her syntax is a bit French, though), Walker and KSa but I'm not sure about Fredrik. For some reason, I associate Loic with Britishness - it might be because Standard Singaporean English is largely based on Standard British English.

Porthos wrote:
That's very difficult to say, being that the written language is based on Standard British English and Standard American English, which are not very different at all, with the exception of a few minor spelling differences such as "center-centre" and "color-colour", and words such as "whilst vs while".

Style and the choice of words also speak volumes. In the case of some people (e.g. Loic, Greg, Walker etc.) that's what makes me decide which type of English they write and speak.
Benjamin [inactive]

Liz wrote:
Interesting. As far as I can judge, I agree with you on Fab, Greg, Pauline (her syntax is a bit French, though), Walker and KSa but I'm not sure about Fredrik. For some reason, I associate Loic with Britishness - it might be because Standard Singaporean English is largely based on Standard British English.

I wasn't really sure about Fredrik either. About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.

Liz wrote:
Style and the choice of words also speak volumes. In the case of some people (e.g. Loic, Greg, Walker etc.) that's what makes me decide which type of English they write and speak.

That's right. I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.
Liz

Benjamin wrote:
I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.

It's because he uses American vocab most of the time. He has an excellent command of American colloquialisms. (Again, as far as I can judge - I'm not a native English speaker and definitely not an American one.)

Benjamin wrote:
About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.

So do I. Victorian style peppered with contemporary British slang expressions, but it's a treat to read - at least for me. It certainly brings much more aesthetic satisfaction than proofreading my own posts and editing them at least a thousand times (and still finding plenty of mistakes in them).
Walker

Porthos wrote:
The same people who scream at their employees and add an "o" to everything they say. -- " I saido, washo the backseato nowo, or elso i'm gonna fire your asso! Comprende amigo?"


And the employees tolerate that kind of treatment?

Liz wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
I haven't paid much attention to Walker's spelling, but there's something about the style and words which says 'American' to me.

It's because he uses American vocab most of the time. He has an excellent command of American colloquialisms. (Again, as far as I can judge - I'm not a native English speaker and definitely not an American one.)


Why, thank you, Liz! And I do use American spelling. As for our missing Norwegian, I've noticed that he uses both ways of spelling.
Porthos

Quote:
About Loic — I associate the way he writes primarily with a kind of 'Britishness' from about 100 years ago.



For some reason, this made me bust up laughing! Just the way you said it, "from about a hundred years ago", made me burst into laughter. But it's so true. I feel as if there's a Victorian gentleman in my living room talking to me over tea when I read Loic's posts. I can't for the life of me picture him as a 21st Century Asian, less than ten years older than me.
Porthos

Quote:
And the employees tolerate that kind of treatment?


They're illegal aliens! They have to tolerate it if they want to feed their 10 kids and not get reported to immigration services.

These poor Mexican immigrants are treated like dirt. They're often forced to accept slave wages, well below minimum wage, while doing the kind of work no white American would dare take on, and struggling to raise large families in a foreign land. The upper-middle class white people who employ them drive me mad sometimes, with their arrogance, their condescending tone of voice, and their ignorance. A lot of them honestly believe that they can add a vowel to most English words and be understood by a Spanish speaker, because of the Romance cognates English shares with Spanish. The racism is not usually overt, but closet racism or feelings of superiority do indeed exists. Because of how I look, many white people complain to me and speak abusively of Mexicans, revealing their true racist sentiments, only to find out that I myself am Mexican, and when I tell them that, they get this "Oh Shit!" look on their face.
Deborah

[What better way to relieve the stress of not being even close to done with my Spanish homework, than to forget about it and visit langcafe?]

Porthos, I know what you mean about the prejudice against Mexicans here. I even hear it from acquaintances of mine who should know better. On a slightly related note, when I first started going with my Mexican former boyfriend, I decided to teach myself Spanish. I wanted to learn vocabulary that would be useful in our personal lives, like how to talk about things around the house, and I came across a book titled something like "Useful Conversational Spanish: How To Talk To Your Mexican Employees". It actually had a lot of vocabulary I wanted to learn, so I bought it, but the cover was so embarrassing that I used to stick it inside a bigger book or magazine when I read it on the subway. (And I could just imagine some upper middle-class American shouting those sentences at her cleaning woman, with a strong American accent, of course.)

I have two sorts of images when I think of the English language. One is of urban US, because of where I grew up (and the beaches are foggy, not sunny); the other is moors and castles in England, because of all the British movies I was exposed to when I was growing up. The former also, like Porthos, is strongly associated with black Americans, whose speech has been the source of so much of our slang for so many generations.

OK, back to my Spanish homework.
Loic

For me, I do not make a conscious association with the English language in general and with a pre-determined landscape. Of coure, such an association would readily spring to mind if one talks about British English, American English, Australian English, etc.

For languages I do not quite know much about, I am more than happy to give my opinion. For some reason, I associate Italian with hirsuite vain men who think highly of themselves, slap women whom they approve on the buttocks - even if they are married, lasagna and pasta, Roman ruins, romantic canals in Venice and to a much lesser extent, the Roman Catholic church.

Before Porthos mentioned Mexico, I was going to say that the musical lilt of the Spanish language brings to mind the racy flamingo dances of Andalusia. Now, I am reminded of La Bamba and oh, what a fantastic song it is (especially the interpretation by Los Lobos).

German inspires polarising images in me, both positive and negative. The positive images are those which one'd stereotypically associate with the Germans: stoic to the point of dourness, methodical to the point of metronomic accuracy, obedience to rules and regulations to a fault.

On the other hand, my penchant for war films has also made German a natural language for barking out military orders. Instructions in German always sound so much more bloodcurdingly chilling than those in English or say, French.

Of course, that is because I am largely ignorant of German and do not understand a jot of it.
Porthos

Quote:
On the other hand, my penchant for war films has also made German a natural language for barking out military orders. Instructions in German always sound so much more bloodcurdingly chilling than those in English or say, French.

Of course, that is because I am largely ignorant of German and do not understand a jot of it.


That's okay, because we're just talking about how our mind associates languages, based on our life experiences which influence such a thing. So, feel free to write whatever comes to mind, no matter how far from reality it is.

I used to think of German as a harsh language, and when compared to English, I still think it is. But it sounds wonderfully soft after listening to so much Dutch all the time. Compared to Dutch, German is as a soft as a lullaby, and I think it's a rather cute language, especially when spoken by a woman, preferably in an undertone.
When I think of German, of course Nazi Germany comes to mind, but I also think of chocolate pastries, strudels, the Three Little Pigs, those little Central European houses and villages, and all of the landscape one would associate with Austria, Switzerland, and southern Germany. I have this romantic connection between Low German and northern Germany, although I'm sure most people in northern Germany speak standard High German these days.
Wanderin

OK. So it's my turn though i guess most people dont care about what is in my mind

English - i think about work, about my boss (I work with foreigners), i use english so often with people of so many different nationalities, that this language has lost any associations with a certain country or with culture. Sometimes i think that it's a conlang.

Japanese - Saylor Moon, it's Japanese cartoon shown here on TV, tamagochi, robots, geisha, Haruki Murakami (popular japanese author here), sushi bar, japanese cuisine in general (I like it a lot).

Chinese - illegal immigrants, fake cheap goods, kind of enemy

Hindi - vedas!!! TEA!!! Tadge Mahal.

Latin - Roman Empire, great power

Ancient Greek - philosophy

Sanskrit - language of our anscestors, sacred language

Portugues - Brazil, carnivals, eternal heat, bananas, monkeys, Amazon region

Italian - opera, pizza, Italina cuisine in general (I like it)

French - frogs, wine, well again cuisine, fashion, parfume, Eiffel Tower

German - business, big companies, good cars

Spanish - machos, gringos, burritos, big Mexican hats and guitar, corrida

Arabic - muslims, exotic culture, sheikhs, Egypt, pyramids, oil, terrorism also.

Dutch - pot, whores, red lights, sex-tourism LOL


What about Russian? what associations do you have?
Deborah

My most pervasive association with Spanish is of the Mission district in San Francisco, and Mexican restaurants (yum!). My other association is of flamenco dancers, since my mother loved flamenco and took us to see every flamenco company that passed through town.

Wanderin wrote:
What about Russian? what associations do you have?

Again, I have different associations. One is based on my three trips to the Soviet union during the glasnost period, on two of which I was a guest in people's homes. So I think of huge, rather shabby apartment complexes, the wonderfully reliable subways, slow lines in stores, the beautiful countryside (I was fortunate enough to have been able to visit my friends' dachas).

My childhood associations with Russian were based on my acquaintance with people who were from the first wave of post-revolution Russian immigration. I picture elderly ladies living in genteel poverty in small San Francisco apartments that look very old-world to me -- lacy curtains, lots of knicknacks, sepia-toned photos of relatives that remind me of the photos of the tsar's family (except, in most cases, not as handsome), drinking tea from glasses in those traditional Russian metal tea glass holders. Geographically, it reminds me of the Richmond District in SF, where the Russians tended to live, so it was mostly foggy with stucco houses and not many trees. And Geary Boulevard, the Richmond's main drag, strongly comes to mind. That's where the Russian bakeries and restaurants were.

And the third association is with ballet teachers and class accompanists, so what I picture is old ballet studios.
Loic

I spent a semester studying Russian history in general or more specifically, the years leading up to the March and November Russian revolutions of 1917 in particular. My attitude towards the Russian language is hence deeply influenced by the tsarist epoch. Images which come to mind when one mentions the language of Tolstoy includes the famous Onion Dome of the Kremlin (as you had seen, I'd probably mistake every Russian Orthodox church in Moscow for the Kremlin); the early revolutionaries such as Lenin, Kamenev, Zinoviev as well as Trotsky; Five Year Industrialisation Plans and its emphasis on Stackhanovite efficiency; caviar and vodka; leggy Russian blondes (where is Anna Kournikova now?); piercing cold winters.

There are many images I have of Russian, but if I am forced to choose a definitive picture which encapsulates the strength and the vitality of the language to me, I'd pick the photo of a Red Army soldier raising the national flag over the ruins of Berlin:

Irrintzi

The east-european or Slavic languages remind me the roughness and the hardness of these cultures as well as the cold climate.
On my mind, I have this image, the Tsar Ivan the Terrible:


As well, I think of the talents of its peoples in artistic sports as gymnastics or athletism.
There is a certain sensualism in the Slavic women, these dancers that represent agility and "nordic beauty" ,
This video (Marta's song of Deep Forest's Bohème album) is the perfect example of my cliché about this culture:



I have a question about this song, in what language the girl sings? Bulgarian? Hungarian? Russian? Polish?
Liz

She is Sebestyén Márta, our best and most famous folk singer! http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sebestyen_Marta Of course, she is singing in Hungarian.

She isn't a Slavic woman.

Thanks for bringing back sweet memories - I've almost forgotten about this song.
Irrintzi

Liz wrote:
She is Sebestyén Márta, our best and most famous folk singer! http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sebestyen_Marta Of course, she is singing in Hungarian.


Ok thanks for informations.
In fact, I suspected a little that the song's language wasn't Slavic, because phonetically it is different. It's with this kind of song that we realize of the beauty of languages as Hungarian...

Quote:
She isn't a Slavic woman.


Effectively, I know that Hungarian language and people aren't Slavic.
But, I think that Bohème album (and obviously Marta's song) is a tribute for all East European cultures.

Quote:
Thanks for bringing back sweet memories - I've almost forgotten about this song.


Deusetaz. It was a pleasure.
Porthos

Quote:
There is a certain sensualism in the Slavic women, these dancers that represent agility and "nordic beauty" ,


You and Loic both speak of common Nordic physical attributes like "long-legged blondes", when you think of Slavs. But, I get a different impression. I've never been to Eastern Europe, but my idea of Slavs is that they are not an ethnically homogenous people, with some from south-eastern Europe tend to have dark hair, and eyes, while those from the northern, almost polar regions are very robust and tall, and have a high frequency of blond hair-blue eyes. But they certainly look very different from "Nordic" people I know, which would include Germanic speaking Scandanavians and northern Germans, Dutch, etc. They have almost frog-shaped eyes, and high cheekbones. There's just something about their facial features, generally speaking, that really sets them apart from North-western Europeans.



Quote:
Effectively, I know that Hungarian language and people aren't Slavic.


To be honest, I only learned this about a year ago. Until then, I had always assumed they were Slavic, because in my head, Eastern Europe=Slavland, with the exceptions of Albania and Greece and Romania and the like.
And I used to always believe that Latvian and Lithuanian were Slavic languages. I mean, they're right next to Russia, and the Latvian and Lithuanian "World's Strongmen" on tv always seemed to have Slavic sounding surnames.

But Liz, I have a question for you. I know Hungary takes its name from the Asiatic Huns who settled there, but how many Huns settled there relative to the pre-existing population? Was the ratio of Huns to natives high enough to alter the phenotypes of Hungarians? Do some Hungarians manifest Asian physical features as a result? And do Hungarians hold a special place in their hearts for the Huns, or at least consider them their ancestors?
Irrintzi

Porthos wrote:
Quote:
There is a certain sensualism in the Slavic women, these dancers that represent agility and "nordic beauty" ,


You and Loic both speak of common Nordic physical attributes like "long-legged blondes", when you think of Slavs. But, I get a different impression. I've never been to Eastern Europe, but my idea of Slavs is that they are not an ethnically homogenous people, with some from south-eastern Europe tend to have dark hair, and eyes, while those from the northern, almost polar regions are very robust and tall, and have a high frequency of blond hair-blue eyes. But they certainly look very different from "Nordic" people I know, which would include Germanic speaking Scandanavians and northern Germans, Dutch, etc. They have almost frog-shaped eyes, and high cheekbones. There's just something about their facial features, generally speaking, that really sets them apart from North-western Europeans.


It's only a cliché, a stereotype, you undestand? I know that Slavic Serbians are generally brown haired. But generally when you think about a slavic girl, she's blond haired, tall and has blue eyes.

A typical serb, the famous filmmaker Emir Kusturica:



Quote:


But Liz, I have a question for you. I know Hungary takes its name from the Asiatic Huns who settled there, but how many Huns settled there relative to the pre-existing population? Was the ratio of Huns to natives high enough to alter the phenotypes of Hungarians? Do some Hungarians manifest Asian physical features as a result? And do Hungarians hold a special place in their hearts for the Huns, or at least consider them their ancestors?


Did you hear Hungarian? For me, it doesn't look like a typically east-European language, the pronunciation seems to me "Asiatic" as Mongolian, Caucasian or Chinese languages (due to palatization?)...
I know only one Hungarian (of Origin), our French president Nagybócsai Sárközy Pál or more commonly Nicolas Sarkozy, he doesn't look like to an asiatic, maybe more slavic...
Liz

Porthos wrote:
But Liz, I have a question for you. I know Hungary takes its name from the Asiatic Huns who settled there, but how many Huns settled there relative to the pre-existing population? Was the ratio of Huns to natives high enough to alter the phenotypes of Hungarians? Do some Hungarians manifest Asian physical features as a result? And do Hungarians hold a special place in their hearts for the Huns, or at least consider them their ancestors?

Actually, many foreign names of Hungary (e.g. Hungary, Ungarn, Hongrie etc.) are derived from the word onogur, which was the name of the Bulgarian-Turkish alliance of tribes (10 tribes - in all likelyhood were only the leadership Bulgarian and Turkish ("onogur" = ten tribes), the vast majority of the population was Hungarian). However, we have quite a different term to denote ourselves: magyar. This word consists of two Finno-Ugric words: "magy"+ "eri". "Magy" is a name of an ancient Ugric nation, and "er" is a Finno-Ugric word, meaning "man".

We don't consider the Huns for our ancestors, nevertheless, some people believe that Hungarians and Huns are relatives.The Huns settled down in the Karpat-Basin and in the area of present-day Hungary and they must have mixed with the Hungarians to a certain extent. There were lots of other Asian nomadic tribes that had contact with Hungarians, too. As a result of this, there certainly are people who manifest typical Asian features but the physical features of Hungarian people are extremely veratile. You can find Nordic, southern, Asian etc types of people there. Still, the stereotypical Hungarian person has brown hair and brown eyes.
Wanderin

Loic wrote:
Images which come to mind when one mentions the language of Tolstoy includes the famous Onion Dome of the Kremlin (as you had seen, I'd probably mistake every Russian Orthodox church in Moscow for the Kremlin);

You are wrong, Kremlin is a fortress, it doesn have ANY domes, it has towers, Moscow Kremlin is a president residence (there are very many Kremlins in Russia), how do you imagin Putin having offical talks in a church? What you are talking about is St. Basil Cathedral.
Wanderin

Irrintzi wrote:
The east-european or Slavic languages remind me the roughness and the hardness of these cultures as well as the cold climate.

how a culture can be rough and hard? what is rough in Pushkin poetry? or in Tchaikovsky music?
Porthos

Wanderin wrote:
Irrintzi wrote:
The east-european or Slavic languages remind me the roughness and the hardness of these cultures as well as the cold climate.

how a culture can be rough and hard? what is rough in Pushkin poetry? or in Tchaikovsky music?


It's a cliche, or associations he has within his own imagination. It's all subjective, and sometimes our associations do not always represent reality. For someone from France like Irrintzi, where they have a warm, romantic culture and a mild climate, the door, stoic, culture and harsh, freezing climates of Russia bring words like "rough" and "hard" to mind.
Irrintzi

Quote:
Wanderin wrote:

How a culture can be rough and hard? what is rough in Pushkin poetry? or in Tchaikovsky music?


It's a cliche, or associations he has within his own imagination. It's all subjective, and sometimes our associations do not always represent reality


Forgive me Wanderin, I'm really a passionate of Russian and eastern-european cultures.
What I said is only as Porthos said, ONE cliché.
Russia is the biggest country of the world, there're several different peoples, several cultures, etc...
How the slavic culture can be rough and hard? For me it's the climate (Moscovit and Siberian), but the sovietic period image too.

So, yes if you took it badly, I didn't want to offend you.
I, even who live in France, I know that French are victims of many stereotypes... Sometimes very shocking; but France, as Russia, is more complex, France has various people, climates and cultures.

Quote:

For someone from France like Irrintzi, where they have a warm, romantic culture and a mild climate, the door, stoic, culture and harsh, freezing climates of Russia bring words like "rough" and "hard" to mind.


It has been *only* 60 years since my family speaks commonly French (billingual since 80-110 years).
As French Algerian or Senegalese immigrants and Kanaks of Nouvelle-Calédonie, I'm not really the depository of Romantic Culture, BUT Basque culture (excepted for the Roman Catholicism religion but after all the religion is a little mixed with local mythology, as the Mexican one). My ancestors are Basques, always since the Prehistory...
They resisted against all invasions. Some were converted by the Roman culture (Gascons, Asturians, Navarreses, Aragoneses...), but us kept the Basque language after 2000 years of confrontations.



Translations with summarised history:
Toponimoak euskaraz:
Basque Toponyms
Lurralde Elebidunak:
Billingual zones, Peoples spoke Basque, Iberian (Basque's cousin) Celtic or Roman
Erromatar garaia I.m.:
Roman period 1st century
Euskaraz nagusi:
Principally Basque speakers
VII. mendea:
VII century
IX-XII mendeak:
IX-XII centuries, After Germanic Wisigoth, Vandale and Suebi invasions, then Muslim (after the Wisigoth kingdom), and Carolingian wars (Basque vs Carolingian during the famous Battle of Roncevaux Pass, because Carolus Magnus burned the Basque capital named Pompaeopolis in Latin, or Iruna in Basque, Basque men coming from Iberia and Galia, made an ambush. The rearguard of the gigantic Carolingian army is destroyed by an ingenious process. Basque people became independent with Navarrese kingdom thanks to Inigo Aritza, a Arab-Basque lord of بنو قاسي(Banû Qasî family, meaning "heirs of Cassius"), and Aquitanian Duchy (Frank king hadn't many right) creations, even, the lords and the kings are officialising Latin with religion and cultural influences, Navarese is, with the Asturian one, kingdom fathers of Spain).

XVIII-XX. mendeak
XVIII-XX centuries: (XVIth century) Bernard Detchepare from Garaçi is the first Basque-speaker to write his language with the impulse of Jeanne d'Albret, nephew of French king François 1er and one of the first French protestant.
Spanish and French officializations (Unilingual schools, Basque disappearance, the Basque language is humbled by racist comments of some French and Spanish administrators.).
Porthos

Irrintzi, it might make you happy to know that I have a crush on a Basque-American girl.
Irrintzi

Porthos wrote:
Irrintzi, it might make you happy to know that I have a crush on a Basque-American girl.


Lol, It's amazing to see that several people are descended from Basque ancestors in unsuspected countries (USA or England), like : Daniel, Elaine...
Loic

Wandering:

Ha ha. Well, this exposes my woeful ignorance of Muscovite landmarks then. You would probably have guessed by now that to me, the Kremlin symbolises Moscow which is in turn, is represented by the Kremlin.

You know, when I studied Russian history, Moscow was not the hub of activity as was commonly supposed. Most of the major events leading up to the two Russian revolutions occurred in St Petersburg - not that I am anymore familiar with the 'window on Europe', as Pushkin tenderly called it.
Irrintzi

Well Wanderin, you're Russian, aren't you?
Look this French advertissment (I watched it today...):

Deborah

Irrintzi wrote:
Lol, It's amazing to see that several people are descended from Basque ancestors in unsuspected countries (USA or England), like : Daniel, Elaine...

My mother attended the University of Nevada in Reno. Reno has one of the largest concentrations of Basques in the US, and my mother had many friends who were of Basque descent, among them the woman who was the Maid of Honor at her first wedding (whom I met for the first time at my mother's memorial service). Many years later, in San Francisco, my mother married a man from Madrid whose family was Basque.

From the Wikipedia article about Basque emigration:

Quote:
Basques in the United States

There are about 57,000 people of Basque descent living in the United States, according to the 2000 census. This number is highly disputed, however, since before the 1980 census there had never been a federally recognized category for Basques. As a result, Basques were usually categorized as Spanish or French. It is speculated that there are many more Americans of Basque descent who still classify themselves as Spanish, French or Latin American.

The largest concentration of Basque Americans is in the Boise, Idaho, area, where approximately 15,000 Basque Americans live. Boise is home of the Basque Museum and Cultural Center and hosts a large Basque festival known as Jaialdi every five years. A large majority of the Boise Basque community traces its ancestry to Bizkaia (Vizcaya) in northern Spain.

Other significant Basque populations in the United States are located in Reno, Nevada, and the Central Valley region of California. Reno is home to the nation's only Basque Studies Department at the University of Nevada.

There has been a Basque presence in the Americas from the age of Columbus. Basques under the crown of Castile were among the explorers, priests and Conquistadors of the Spanish Empire. Placenames like Durango and Biscayne Bay remember their foundations. Basques began to come to English-speaking America during the 1848 California Gold Rush. The first wave of Basques were already part of the diaspora who were living in Chile and Argentina and came when they heard word of the discovery of gold. When the gold rush did not pan out for most Basque immigrants, the majority turned to ranching and sheep-herding in California's Central Valley, and later in northern Nevada and southern Idaho. Many more Basques arrived from the Basque Country upon hearing of the success of their comrades in America.

Basque immigration was effectively cut off by the 1921 National Origins Quota Act. Basque immigration was restored by Nevada Senator McCarran's 1952 immigration act, which allowed a quota of 500 Basques (technically 'Spanish Sheep Herders').
Deborah

A couple of the surnames of my mother's Basque friends that I can remember are Echevarria and Iturbide. (The spellings may have changed since their ancestors came to the US. And it's possible that I don't remember the exact spelling.)

Oh, and one of my best friends, years ago, obviously had a Basque ancestor. I didn't remember this at first because she was Mexican and I just thought of her last name, Urreta, as being Spanish.
Irrintzi

Deborah wrote:

My mother attended the University of Nevada in Reno. Reno has one of the largest concentrations of Basques in the US, and my mother had many friends who were of Basque descent, among them the woman who was the Maid of Honor at her first wedding (whom I met for the first time at my mother's memorial service). Many years later, in San Francisco, my mother married a man from Madrid whose family was Basque.


So, Basque concentrations are generally located in the West US, no?
I've lot of cousins in Argentina, in this country, there're many Basque families especially northern basques.
According to yours evidences, in these US states the Basque families are from Spanish side.


Quote:
Basques in the United States

There are about 57,000 people of Basque descent living in the United States, according to the 2000 census. This number is highly disputed, however, since before the 1980 census there had never been a federally recognized category for Basques. As a result, Basques were usually categorized as Spanish or French. It is speculated that there are many more Americans of Basque descent who still classify themselves as Spanish, French or Latin American.

The largest concentration of Basque Americans is in the Boise, Idaho, area, where approximately 15,000 Basque Americans live. Boise is home of the Basque Museum and Cultural Center and hosts a large Basque festival known as Jaialdi every five years. A large majority of the Boise Basque community traces its ancestry to Bizkaia (Vizcaya) in northern Spain.


Yes, I heard that.

Quote:
Other significant Basque populations in the United States are located in Reno, Nevada, and the Central Valley region of California. Reno is home to the nation's only Basque Studies Department at the University of Nevada.

There has been a Basque presence in the Americas from the age of Columbus. Basques under the crown of Castile were among the explorers, priests and Conquistadors of the Spanish Empire. Placenames like Durango and Biscayne Bay remember their foundations. Basques began to come to English-speaking America during the 1848 California Gold Rush. The first wave of Basques were already part of the diaspora who were living in Chile and Argentina and came when they heard word of the discovery of gold. When the gold rush did not pan out for most Basque immigrants, the majority turned to ranching and sheep-herding in California's Central Valley, and later in northern Nevada and southern Idaho. Many more Basques arrived from the Basque Country upon hearing of the success of their comrades in America.

Basque immigration was effectively cut off by the 1921 National Origins Quota Act. Basque immigration was restored by Nevada Senator McCarran's 1952 immigration act, which allowed a quota of 500 Basques (technically 'Spanish Sheep Herders').


Did Basques keep their cultures? Do they feel Basque? Or still, they speak Basque?

Quote:
A couple of the surnames of my mother's Basque friends that I can remember are Echevarria and Iturbide. (The spellings may have changed since their ancestors came to the US. And it's possible that I don't remember the exact spelling.)


No, I think that their surnames didn't change since they immigrated to America (the basque surnames were frenchized or Spanized)
Here Echevarria is a Spanization of Etxeberria (New house). Iturbide is a original Basque name (with the inflexion of iturri "fontaine" or "natural spring", and bide "road", "Road of the fountain")

Quote:
Oh, and one of my best friends, years ago, obviously had a Basque ancestor. I didn't remember this at first because she was Mexican and I just thought of her last name, Urreta, as being Spanish.


Urreta can be Basque (from 'Ur' meaning water, -(r)eta, -etako, a Basque Locative Genitive (From?), Urreta= From or near to water (spring? Sea? River?)
Uriel

The so-called Australian Shepherd is an American breed based on Basque sheepdogs imported with their owners to herd sheep in the western US:



If you watch the beginning of Brokeback Mountain, where the main characters' herd of sheep gets entwined with a different herd, you will see that the other sheepherders have these dogs and are speaking an unintelligible language as they try to wrestle the sheep apart. Based on those things, I have assumed that they were, in fact, Basques. (The main characters had Australian cattle dogs -- blue heelers -- in tow.




Both "Australian" breeds are very common throughout the western US, since they make good ranch dogs.)

I had no idea Echevarria was a Basque name -- it's not uncommon here. I assume Chavarria is a variant -- also common.


In response some of the other ideas presented in this thread -- yup, Walker is a dead ringer for an American! Too funny. Loic out-Britishes the British. None of our French-speaking posters strike me as either British or American -- they just seem like foreigners speaking English. Even greg, whose command of the language is excellent, has a sort of "other" vibe when he writes.


A lot of languages conjure up dual (or more!) associated images for me. Like a split-screen TV effect. I can't think of "English" without thinking "England" a split second later, even though I'm American, and since the language went worldwide a long time ago, it's hard for me to associate it with just one place or people at all. Spanish, again, makes me automatically think of Spain, just becuase of the name, but since I have no real mental picture of Spain, of course I think think of Mexico as a more concrete picture.

As far as people "ignorantly" superimposing Mexican things onto Spain, remember that that can also be simply an innocent mistake, as in one story I heard of a guy ordering tortillas with his Spanish meal -- not realizing that in Spain, tortillas aren't flat bread....who knew?

French, too, is spoken in lots of places besides France, so it's not hard to think of Tahiti, Haiti, and Quebec as well as Paris.

Other languages that really do tend to be restricted to one place, like Swedish or Albanian, just bring up images of that one country.

As far as Russian goes, I think automatically of samovars, thick fur coats, those pretty little painted boxes and babushka dolls, troikas dashing through the snow, and Russian fairy tales -- especially that house with the chicken feet (Baba Yaga's house).

Irrintzi

Uriel wrote:
The so-called Australian Shepherd is an American breed based on Basque sheepdogs imported with their owners to herd sheep in the western US:



If you watch the beginning of Brokeback Mountain, where the main characters' herd of sheep gets entwined with a different herd, you will see that the other sheepherders have these dogs and are speaking an unintelligible language as they try to wrestle the sheep apart. Based on those things, I have assumed that they were, in fact, Basques. (The main characters had Australian cattle dogs -- blue heelers -- in tow.


Lol! So amazing, really I didn't knew that this "basque" race existed. I didn't saw many Australian sheepdogs, the most famous in Basque Country's landscapes is the sheepdog Border-Collie (I have one), A very sympathetic and cuddly dog!:




Another sheepdog, the "Patou des Pyrénées", so brave and strong (the great ennemy of wolfs and other pyrinean predators)




Quote:
I had no idea Echevarria was a Basque name -- it's not uncommon here. I assume Chavarria is a variant -- also common.


Reminds me the name of a famous man... Che Guevarra (or in Basque Gebara), or another important character of the South-American history: Simón Bolívar (basque Bolibar Ardanza)
fab

Re: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography

erreur
fab

Re: Our Mind's association of languages-cultures-geography

[quote="fab"]
Quote:
So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, )


Hello Porthos, I'm back !



Quote:
for most Europeans, English brings to mind things associated with England or the British Isles


Actually I think it is more the inverse for most people.

In my case, I discovered England much later after the US. As a kid I travelled often to the US, espcially in Florida and New York, where I had my first direct contacts with English language.

We associate English with England obviously for the name and origin of the language - but in the same time I think that thank of the influence of the USA we have much more contact with English language thru the US, which are now more the real center or the English speaking world than England.

But, basically, most people doesn't dissocied British and American culture as much as you do. Of course most people are aware of the differences of both countries (to which we could include also Australia)

concerning popular music, which is in big part English-speaking in french FM, the differenciation is not made as strong as you would do. when I was a kid I didn't knew where this or that famous singer was from - American or English. when I grew up I discovered that a lot of singers and groups of the eighties that I thought to be American where in fact English. while others I thought to be English revealed themselves to be Americans.








Quote:
which are all very much like the things associated with the Netherlands and Germany. So for a person like Fab (who no longer frequents langcafe, ), the natural tendency is to see English as being represenative of a Germanic culture, and so it is very natural for him to see English as a Germanic language, very similar to Dutch and German, and the others. But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.


If I see English as a germanic language it is not because I associate it with Nations like Netherlands or Germany, but because Enlish IS a germanic language. To me German is not "more" representative of germanic cultures than English, because in French we don't have that confusion between "germanique" and "Allemand". but because in English, the word "Germanic" sounds like saying "coming from Germany" - a lot of people try to avoid the association because Germany seem to carry a relatively negative image to some. But to me, no confusion! : L'Allemand et l'Anglais sont des langues germaniques au même titre.



Quote:
But I don't see English as being tied to a "Germanic" culture, the same way I do Dutch or German, because I first associate English with places and peoples of North America, which are far removed from the places and people of northern Europe.


far removed, but in a country, which was founded and firstly populated by northern Europeans - not that of a such different "ethnic background" as you think. I myself would have real difficulties to recognise an English from an American, the accent and clothes could give a clue.
You will say "Americans are not only from northern Europe", yes, true, but English are not either, especially in modern times. you really should go to London to realise how similar it is culturally to a big American city, despite of the obvious differences due to the geography and the recent history.


Quote:
In some ways, I see English as being tied to Black Americans, and their very distinct culture. I picture the AAVE of the inner cities of America, and somehow cannot for the life of me see much of a similaritiy between that culture and people, and the culture of northern Europe.


yes, and we also often associate English with Reaggae and Jamaica, which is very strongly associated and blended into British modern culture.



[quote]I see English as being tied to the inhabitants of New York, and I think mainly of all the Italians and Jews and their very distinct sub-culture and accents, and I can't possibly associate that culture with those of northern Europe. [quote]

That's exatly the same in London, which is a city organized like New-York in sub-district for each "community": Jew, Italian, Chinese, pakistanese, etc. there is not much really Londoner of "pure" english roots. This "salad boyl" is a very tipical thing of the English-speaking first world.



[quote] In my mind I also see all of the tanned skin, bikin-clad, vibrant peoples of southern California, Miami, Florida, and Hawaii, and Australia, and the warm, sub-tropical and or mediterranean climates associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that are not of northern European descent, but primarily Latin-American and Pacific Islander.
Quote:


In Austalia a big part of the population still quite tipical of northern European ancestry. and in california, even if things change quikcly due to the migratory pressure, it still have a "anglo" population wich continues to lead the regions (your governor's is not very Mexican!)

you can ask Benjamin, similar phenomenons occur in Britain. I think that most poeple in his own city would not correspond really to what you think of being British - but are de facto north Europeans as much as the latin-American Americans of California are Americans.



Quote:
Similarly, with Spanish, Spain doesn't come to mind so much as Latin America does. When I think of Spanish my mind sees the sun-scorched stretches of desert in Mexico, and the tropics of Central America and the Caribbean. I think of hot, humid rainforests, warm beaches, deserts, Afro-influenced music and dance, beer (not wine like the viticulture of Spain), Mestizo and Mulatto peoples, spicy food, coffee plantations and coffee itself, etc. Much of those things are not things which we would normally associate with Spain or Latin Europe, but most Europeans probably think of Spain in association with Spanish because of their close proximity to the country. As a Californian, a very different image comes to mind.


what is interesting is that all the latin-american things you spoke about what evoques you spanish language represent only a part of latin-america, the less "latinized", (or at least the one with more amerindian and African influences which gave the "exotic" thing in it) : mezo-america; the tropical part of the Americas.
A big part of latin-America has very few to see with it, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and southern parts of Brazil - those countries would associate more with Europe.




Quote:
And many people here, particularly the French, think of the U.S. and other English speaking countries as being mere extensions of English culture.


in fact they were, they developped their own way, and, since the post WW2 it is more or less the inverse. the US has a lot of influence over England - as they have in toher places in the world - but stronger due to the vehicule of the language. Let's just see huge amounts of bagel stores or starbucks coffeas in London, with multiethnic populations and traders in costume, the same as in New York.
The last time I've been to London, two months ago, was after having been to NewYork and US a few times. being in London's ambiance remind me so much in smells, attitudes, people, architecture, the ambiances I had in the USA that I had the impression of being very far from home.

for me this would be the kind of ambiance I would associate with English language
fab

concerning Spanish, I alway associated it with Spain. In fact in Europe we have not a direct exposure of Hispano-American cultures, while Spain is a close neighbour. most Spanish teatchers are Spanish or at least speak the castillian way. A lot of french people have spanish roots or ancestry and it is easy to go even simply for a weekend.

But for people who don't have a specific interes to Spain they tend to reduce the country to the Andalucian stereotypes, because it was the image of Spain that was promoted by franco's regime to carry tourism to southern Spain. Since the eighties the image of Spain has been deeply tranformed and is now more in relation with the reality.

I think most people doesn't have a clear vision of how are the hispano american countries. Some people not interested in the question can tend to think that they are a direct transportation of Spain in the Americas.


when I was a kid, when I thought Spanish, I saw that :



now I see also that :








but also that :



and on the other side of atlantic:









Porthos

Quote:
I think most people doesn't have a clear vision of how are the hispano american countries. Some people not interested in the question can tend to think that they are a direct transportation of Spain in the Americas.


Yes, and as you and I both know, this is far from true, what with all the Meso-American influences in Mexico, Central America, and the Afro influence in the Carribbean.



Quote:
Hello Porthos, I'm back !


Bienvenue mon vieil ami!



Quote:
We associate English with England obviously for the name and origin of the language - but in the same time I think that thank of the influence of the USA we have much more contact with English language thru the US, which are now more the real center or the English speaking world than England.


Well yeah. The U.S. has about 300 million English speakers, whereas Britain has about 60 million. But when you think of the historical development of English, you think of where that took place, which is England.



Quote:
But, basically, most people doesn't dissocied British and American culture as much as you do. Of course most people are aware of the differences of both countries (to which we could include also Australia)


No, most people do. Perhaps the French don't, but most people I've met aside from Francophones, see the two countries as being seperate cultural entities. Ask Benjamin, an Englishman, or Uriel or I, both Americans, how we feel about our cultural differences. England is no less foreign to me as an American, than the Netherlands or Germany. Language is the only thing we share in common. Aside from that, England's culture is much more like the Netherlands or Germany than it is like the U.S. Even British peoples disposition and demeanor are very typical of northwestern Europeans, but very different from Americans, so much so, that as an American, I can often pick them out of a crowd just by observing them, without even hearing them speak. David Beckham and his wife were part of several interviews on TV recently, and they repeatedly spoke of learning to adjust to the "drastically different" culture in the U.S.





Quote:
If I see English as a germanic language it is not because I associate it with Nations like Netherlands or Germany, but because Enlish IS a germanic language. To me German is not "more" representative of germanic cultures than English, because in French we don't have that confusion between "germanique" and "Allemand". but because in English, the word "Germanic" sounds like saying "coming from Germany" - a lot of people try to avoid the association because Germany seem to carry a relatively negative image to some. But to me, no confusion! : L'Allemand et l'Anglais sont des langues germaniques au même titre.


No, I don't think so. Not for any learned people that is. I for one, would never associate "Germanic" predominantly with "Germany", but instead in my mind, it encompasses all of the Germanic speaking Europe, so there is no confusion either. To me, English is clearly a Germanic language, but I don't associate the culture attached to the language with Germanic culture the same way I would, Dutch or German, because first and foremost, when I think of English I think of America, and there is very little "Germanicness" attached to America, whereas England has a "Germanic", or "northwestern European" climate, cuisine, culture, architecture, etc.




Quote:
far removed, but in a country, which was founded and firstly populated by northern Europeans - not that of a such different "ethnic background" as you think. I myself would have real difficulties to recognise an English from an American, the accent and clothes could give a clue.
You will say "Americans are not only from northern Europe", yes, true, but English are not either, especially in modern times. you really should go to London to realise how similar it is culturally to a big American city, despite of the obvious differences due to the geography and the recent history.


Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. British immigration from the last 50 years, in no way compares to America's share of immigration over the course of its entire history. In America, the number of immigrants surpassed that of the native population, and overtook them in numbers, so that the number of Americans of English heritage has been reduced to a small percentage of the population. In Britian, the native population has remained a dominant majority, with about 90% of the population being of British background.



Quote:
In Austalia a big part of the population still quite tipical of northern European ancestry. and in california, even if things change quikcly due to the migratory pressure, it still have a "anglo" population wich continues to lead the regions (your governor's is not very Mexican!)


Think again. Where I live, Hispanics are a clear majority, making up 70% of the population, and for most of them, there is nothing Anglo about them at all. They've transformed their community into a Mexican cultural enclave. They attend Church with Spanish language services, watch Spanish language television, speak Spanish at home, eat virtually nothing but Mexican cuisine, and hold strictly to their Hispanic-Catholic based family traditions. Hispanics already make up about 40% of California's population, and within one generation, they will make up close to 65% of it, with Asians comprising another 13%, blacks another 9%, and whites (only about a tenth of whom are of British descent) making up 13% of the population.





Quote:
in fact they were, they developped their own way, and, since the post WW2 it is more or less the inverse. the US has a lot of influence over England - as they have in toher places in the world - but stronger due to the vehicule of the language. Let's just see huge amounts of bagel stores or starbucks coffeas in London, with multiethnic populations and traders in costume, the same as in New York.
The last time I've been to London, two months ago, was after having been to NewYork and US a few times. being in London's ambiance remind me so much in smells, attitudes, people, architecture, the ambiances I had in the USA that I had the impression of being very far from home.


They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent! The result is bound to be a very different product from the original ingredient. When you make a recipe, do you judge or categorize the recipe only by one ingredient. So, would you say a cake mix is nothing but raw eggs, only because that was the first ingredient used? Or would you look at the whole picture, and see that the cake mix, after the mixture of other ingredients, has become something very different from raw eggs?
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
In Britian, the native population has remained a dominant majority, with about 90% of the population being of British background.

I think you confusing the fact that about 90% of people in Britain look 'white' with them being from a British background. There are lots of 'white' people in Britain who are not mainly of British descent — for example, there are millions of people of Irish descent (although I realise that many people would not see this as completely separate from the 'British' concept), millions of people of Polish descent plus at least a million first generation Polish immigrants, and lots of other people descended from other places in Europe.

Fab is right that Birmingham has relatively little affinity with what you could consider to be 'typically English/British'. It's very modern, and if you walk around the city centre, you'll find that most people you see there do not look 'white'.

You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking. In my view, the Netherlands has as much in common with England as with Germany, and in many ways, I think it actually seems more similar to England.
fab

Quote:
You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking.


yes, that is what I also think - netherlands seem to me quite clearly the most similar country to England. In almost all ways, climate, architecture, food, people, way of life, landscapes, etc. and language. Dutch and English seem to me as much similar than dutch and german - and Dutch people almost all speak fluent perfect english.

and those places, could you say where are they from ?























[/img]
fab

Quote:
They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent!


is that not also the case of imigration countries such as Uruguay or Argentina for exemple ? does they have nothing in common with Spain ?
why those countries are not like USA, since they all have been "lving their own way" on the same continent, with strong emigration waves of peoples coming from different places of Europe, north and south. How could it happened to them to have different culture ?

You forget that "living it own way" doesn't mean starting from zero. the political and cultural entities that are called countries have an herency, which is not just made of the addition of the imigrants's identities.
If the italian people that have emigrated to Argentina in the 19th/20th century would have emigrated to the USA instead they would have been culturally "anglo" - actually can you say that an American of Italian origin and a Argentinean of Italian origins have the same culture and identity ? Of course not, because they have emigrated to political entities that had a different cultural background, and that made them now two people of very different culture.



Quote:
When you make a recipe, do you judge or categorize the recipe only by one ingredient. So, would you say a cake mix is nothing but raw eggs, only because that was the first ingredient used? Or would you look at the whole picture, and see that the cake mix, after the mixture of other ingredients, has become something very different from raw eggs?


Once again you seem don't want to understand that what had made United states an "Anglo" country is not a question of "ethnic" origin of the settlers, but of the cultural legacy they have left in the foundations of it. the following imigration waves of the 19 had integrated in that cultural entity; even if they kept some etnic pride in their nation of origin and some superficial idealized characteristics. once again, if those same people would have emigrated to Argentina, their decendance would have been culturally Argentinean - a different thing than United statian.

Quote:
whereas England has a "Germanic", or "northwestern European" climate, cuisine, culture, architecture, etc.


concerning the architecture, you can have a lot in my previous post and try to answer it.

concerning the climate, I have difficulties to understand what could mean a germanic climate. Inside germanic Europe you find various climates. London's mild oceanic climate has definitly few in common with Berlin's continental one.
if you think the USA to be so climatically different from northern Europe it may be because your vision of US is southern California, which might be not really representative of the whole US. You would be surprise to discover that most of the "cold northern Europe" that you imagine have in fact much milder winters that the great majority of the US. And that places like Milan or Madrid usually have quite much colder winters than London.

concerning cooking, I always find northern European foods very similar to American ones.

concerning culture, northern Europe and united states share related languages and a strong protestant influence, which shaped the societies.
Benjamin [inactive]

The pictures:

1 — could sort of be London, but maybe somewhere in Canada or the Eastern US

2 — Netherlands? but possibly somewhere in Scandinavia, actually

3 — England or Netherlands (could be either)

4 — for some reason I'm actually thinking Johannesburg or somewhere else in South Africa; that seems unlikely though

5 — Rotterdam, I think; but might be Newcastle-upon-Tyne or some other northern English city

6 — Netherlands (I noticed the 'te koop' sign, but it could just as easily be England)

7 — maybe somewhere in the United States or Canada

8 — Netherlands, maybe Rotterdam again

9 — it looks kind of 'big', so maybe Canada or the United States

10 — England, or maybe the Netherlands (or even Wales, Ireland, Belgium...)

11 — Netherlands, maybe in one of the university towns like Utrecht or Leiden
Daniel

There is still a significant number of descendants of Basque origin residing in the Philippines. Some of them still speak Basque (as well as Filipino).

The crew members and navigators on the ship that Ferdinand Magellan sailed on to the Philippines were in fact Basque.

Nowadays, only about 8,000 people still speak Spanish in the Philippine archipelago. There are even three Spanish-based Creoles that still survive.
fab

Quote:

1 — could sort of be London, but maybe somewhere in Canada or the Eastern US


It is a tipical view of Boston, USA. but it could definitly be in London.


Quote:
2 — Netherlands? but possibly somewhere in Scandinavia, actually


It is a tipical view of Chicago, USA


Quote:
3 — England or Netherlands (could be either)


Still be Chicago.


Quote:
4 — for some reason I'm actually thinking Johannesburg or somewhere else in South Africa; that seems unlikely though


It is Birmingham..., Alabama, southern US.


Quote:

5 — Rotterdam, I think; but might be Newcastle-upon-Tyne or some other northern English city


Rotterdam, good answer.


Quote:
6 — Netherlands (I noticed the 'te koop' sign, but it could just as easily be England)


netherlands, yes, thanks to the "koop". Without It could be confused for New York.


Quote:
7 — maybe somewhere in the United States or Canada


USA, yes, not a hard one, even if London can look like this in smaller.



Quote:
8 — Netherlands, maybe Rotterdam again


No. Milwaukee, wisconsin, USA. (a city I know well for having stayed there when I was a teenager during three months)



Quote:
9 — it looks kind of 'big', so maybe Canada or the United States


Milwaukee, wisconsin.



Quote:
10 — England, or maybe the Netherlands (or even Wales, Ireland, Belgium...)


once again milwaukee. it is the university where I stayed.



Quote:
11 — Netherlands, maybe in one of the university towns like Utrecht or Leiden


No. Yale, USA. One of the main American universities.
Wanderin

Irrintzi wrote:
Well Wanderin, you're Russian, aren't you?
Look this French advertissment (I watched it today...):


A fuuny one thanks for sharing, though some people here can be very offended, actually I'm very against communism, but the thing is not in communism, but we are still the same people and parade on the Red Squere is a thing to be proud of your country and it is still held on Victory Day and actually this commercial doesn't respect people's feelings, especially of older generations...
Irrintzi

Wanderin wrote:

A fuuny one thanks for sharing, though some people here can be very offended, actually I'm very against communism, but the thing is not in communism, but we are still the same people and parade on the Red Squere is a thing to be proud of your country and it is still held on Victory Day and actually this commercial doesn't respect people's feelings, especially of older generations...


Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.
Us, without the SFIC (French Section of the Communist International), our French republic, certainly would have disappeared in front of fascism (without the Popular Front), and our Gaullist regime (semi-democratic) would have continued to rage, if there had not been "Mai 68".

A May 1968 poster: "Be young and shut up", with stereotypical silhouette of General de Gaulle.

(Counter exhibition to the 1931 Colonial Exhibition in Paris, during which human beings were displayed in cages),
The French Communist Party (PCF) as (PCI, Italian Communist Party, PCE, Spanish Communist Party) didn't disappeared, now with other "partis de gauche", they are the first ones to defend human rights and to attack inequitable state mesures as redundancy...
Social and Communist traditional newspapers:
Canard Enchaîné, a satirical newspaper published weekly in France of Socialist and Communist affiliations:
(Rainbow Warrior)

(Voile et Laïcité)

(Polémique)

(2nd Polémique)

(other, with Poutine)

(Ecology)

(A last one)


L'humanité newspaper founded by Jean Jaurès in 1904, a French socialism figure:
(1994, Génocide du Rwanda, French implications)


To return in this pub, it's funny, but certainly very stupid too. I'm not proud of that, with this situation of Capitalism-Communism quarrels...
Benjamin [inactive]

Irrintzi wrote:
Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.

I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.
Irrintzi

Benjamin wrote:

I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.


Yes, I can't say Soviet-style, because I think that Russia was on the right track, until that it slips in dictatorship and tyrannical regime with Stalin. If Trotsky have been the leader in favour of Stalin, the world would have been very different now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotsky
Liz

Benjamin wrote:
Irrintzi wrote:
Yes, I undestand.
It's strange, I'm not against communism ideas (excepted the anti-democratic ones of course ), the Lenin and Troskyist periods, and the Red Russian revolution is a great symbol as our French revolution of Democracy. I studied communism elements, I don't like the USSR, actual Chinese, and Vietmin principles, because this communism is "bad", "corrupted" and "anti-democratic". For me the "real" communism is equal social ranks; disappearance of moneys, proletariat and with that wars.

I totally agree with this. It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.

That's true. The Hungarian revolution of 1956 was lead by Communists, too. It wasn't against communism but against Soviet-style communism, i.e. communist dictatorship and political dependency from the USSR. However, most people fallaciously interpret it as a revolution against communism.

Many people claim that there is no humane communism - that communism is inherently bad. I'm positive that the original "inventors" of the idea of communism didn't have bad intentions and they would be rolling in their graves if they knew what the likes of Stalin had done to it. At the same time, I doubt that communism is a plausible idea - the implementation would be almost impossible as people are too greedy and they cling tenaciously on to their property.

Irrintzi wrote:
Yes, I can't say Soviet-style, because I think that Russia was on the right track, until that it slips in dictatorship with Stalin. If Trotsky have been the leader in favour of Stalin, the world would have been very different now.

You are right - it's rather inaccurate to say "Soviet-style communism" because of the reasons you mentioned. However, even historians call it that way. Yes, Trotsky might have been a better leader. Legend (or not just legend) has it that Lenin wanted Trotsky to be his successor and he thought it would be dangerous if Stalin would ever come to power.
Loic

Name me a successfully-run Communist state and I'd be a disciple of Marx for life.

Fabien:

I also noticed the 'te koop' sign in one of the photographs and that basically gave the picture away.

Another clue would be to see in which direction traffic flows: on the right or on the left.
Liz

Loic wrote:
Name me a successfully-run Communist state and I'd be a disciple of Marx for life.

I can't because, as I said, the idea is not plausible. Besides, none of the communist states followed Marx' path.
Loic

Liz wrote:
I can't because, as I said, the idea is not plausible. Besides, none of the communist states followed Marx' path.


I have not read Das Kapital so I am not au fait with Marxism. I would like to point out though, George Orwell's disillusionment with the Soviet Union and how he was inspired to write Animal Farm to point out what he perceived to be the Soviet leaders' betrayal of the trust invested in them by the people.

Maybe the best run Communist state in terms of ensuring basic standards of living for its people has to be Cuba - and that is nothing to write home about.

China has dropped all pretentions to be a Communist society and she is now basically a capitalist society with the veneer of Stalinist-Maoist ideals underpinning the authoritarian government.

North Korea is a joke. Her leader is a clown who needs to get a better hairdresser.
Uriel

Quote:
It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.


Now, what exactly makes Soviet communism less "real"? Anyone can write a book. What the soviets did was apply the theory to real life -- and when theory meets reality, there are always modifications that have to take place. Seems to me that Soviet communism was a sight more real, for being flesh and blood, than some words on paper that Karl Marx wrote.
Porthos

Uriel wrote:
Quote:
It's unfortunate that many people do not understand the difference between 'real' communism and Soviet-style 'communism'.


Now, what exactly makes Soviet communism less "real"? Anyone can write a book. What the soviets did was apply the theory to real life -- and when theory meets reality, there are always modifications that have to take place. Seems to me that Soviet communism was a sight more real, for being flesh and blood, than some words on paper that Karl Marx wrote.


True, true. What Benjamin is calling "true" communism is more like "utopian" communism. Sure, it sounds great, but as history shows, after being tried time and time again, it fails to meet the test of reality.
Porthos

Quote:
You are right though Porthos when you say that England is very similar to the Netherlands. I hadn't been to the Netherlands before the past week, but I must say that most of the time when I was there, it was virtually impossible for me to know that I wasn't in England — until I saw writing or heard people speaking. In my view, the Netherlands has as much in common with England as with Germany, and in many ways, I think it actually seems more similar to England.


Yes I agree. I've never been to either country, but from tv and the internet, I get the impression based on the weather, architecture, and other things, that England and the Netherlands share a very similar ambiance, and in many ways, the Netherlands shares more in common with England than it does with Germany. The Netherlands as a whole is probably in between England and Germany, and that is even reflected in its language, which is somewhat a bridge between English and German, albeit much closer to German overall.
greg in noord-frankrijk

fab wrote:
Quote:
They once were, but as you said, American developed along its own way. Americans formed a unique culture on a different continent, and as American settlers spread out from the original 13 colonies on the Atlantic seaboard, they assimilated many different peoples and cultures, over the course of 300 years, on a new continent!


is that not also the case of imigration countries such as Uruguay or Argentina for exemple ? does they have nothing in common with Spain ?
why those countries are not like USA, since they all have been "lving their own way" on the same continent, with strong emigration waves of peoples coming from different places of Europe, north and south. How could it happened to them to have different culture ?

You forget that "living it own way" doesn't mean starting from zero. the political and cultural entities that are called countries have an herency, which is not just made of the addition of the imigrants's identities.
If the italian people that have emigrated to Argentina in the 19th/20th century would have emigrated to the USA instead they would have been culturally "anglo" - actually can you say that an American of Italian origin and a Argentinean of Italian origins have the same culture and identity ? Of course not, because they have emigrated to political entities that had a different cultural background, and that made them now two people of very different culture.


Ta remarque est très juste, fab. Et ton photoquestionnaire est également très pertinent — et très astucieux. Ce que Porthos a peut-être du mal à comprendre c'est que l'existence d'une diversité culturelle au sein d'une société n'abolit pas, jusqu'à présent, les caractéristiques fondamentales de la matrice-hôte. Il suffit d'envisager le phénomène de la diversification culturelle à travers les pays ou sociétés pour se rendre compte que les facteurs d'évolution ne suffisent pas à contrecarrer tous les effets de l'invariance structurelle.

Il est vrai qu'un Uruguayen, un Français ou un États-unien, tous trois d'origine italienne, seront séparés par des barrières culturelles incontournables — sauf, naturellement, si nous parlons de trois nomades authentiquement cosmopolites, voire polyglottes (on peut rêver...).




fab wrote:
concerning the architecture, you can have a lot in my previous post and try to answer it.

(...)

concerning cooking, I always find northern European foods very similar to American ones.

concerning culture, northern Europe and united states share related languages and a strong protestant influence, which shaped the societies.


Absolument. Et au-delà de la nature acatholique du christianisme en question, c'est certainement la prégnance du fait religieux dans le regard social qui intrigue dès le premier abord.
Helena

I agree that Britain and the Netherlands share many similarities. They hold very different views regarding the EU however, with the latter having been one of the founding nations.
Benjamin [inactive]

Who are 'they'? I think that there are a variety attitudes towards the EU held in all countries, and at least in Britain, which attitudes are 'typical' varies a lot by region within the country. I don't think it's fair to characterise the attitudes of an entire country based upon the government's policies.
Walker

Benjamin wrote:
Who are 'they'? I think that there are a variety attitudes towards the EU held in all countries, and at least in Britain, which attitudes are 'typical' varies a lot by region within the country. I don't think it's fair to characterise the attitudes of an entire country based upon the government's policies.


But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?
Liz

Walker wrote:
Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?

You or I, so we.
fab

Quote:
They hold very different views regarding the EU however, with the latter having been one of the founding nations


true that Netherlands is in the "Euro zone" and is one of the foundators of the UE. but we shouldn't forget that nowadays the EU is not that much popular, netherlands rejected, as France, the UE constitution.
Uriel

I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.

Quote:
But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?


You think so? Quite honestly, I'm completely unfamiliar with the governments of most countries. There are only a handful of heads of state I could even name, much less pick out of a crowd. (It's a running joke that we never have any idea who's running Canada, for instance. Or -- you know -- care.) As for their political bents, I would be entirely at a loss. Most countries' political parties and systems are only vaguely comparable to each other's, anyway. So politics rarely colors my conception of other countries.
Walker

Uriel wrote:
Walker wrote:
But it's the governments that count. Who'd give a shit about what you or I think?


You think so? Quite honestly, I'm completely unfamiliar with the governments of most countries. There are only a handful of heads of state I could even name, much less pick out of a crowd. (It's a running joke that we never have any idea who's running Canada, for instance. Or -- you know -- care.) As for their political bents, I would be entirely at a loss. Most countries' political parties and systems are only vaguely comparable to each other's, anyway. So politics rarely colors my conception of other countries.


I meant governments' actions and attitudes. For instance, if your government decided to bomb another village somewhere in the world, you wouldn't have any say in the matter. If our glorious government here decided to make it more difficult for newly arrived refugees to get a residence permit, I wouldn't have any say in the matter.

Politics doesn't very often color my perception of other countries, either. I'm just saying that we have no power and whining won't make any difference (unless there's a whole lot of you and you keep whining for ages).
Uriel

Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say.

I think it's precisely because ordinary people aren't terribly involved in government decisions or policies that I tend to pay little attention to governments when I think of countries. Plus, regimes and administrations change all the time -- they aren't a very reliable indicator of the country as a whole.
fab

Quote:
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.



Uriel,


Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?

that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...

I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...
Porthos

fab wrote:
Quote:
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.



Uriel,


Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?

that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...

I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...


I've even noticed that Dutch people and English people have very similar dispositions. They have this air about them, that allows one to identify them even without hearing them speak. Or maybe it's just an uncanny ability that I have.
Icke

I don't think you can say that the Netherlands are more similar to England than to Germany. Of course, you can't compare southern Bavaria with Holland, but Bavaria isn't Germany either. When most people think of Germany, they seldom seem to have the image of Central or Northern Germany in mind, but that of the alpine region of Germany.
When I've been to Ireland for instance, I didn't notice much of a difference between this country and England. So, I feel that those countries (together with the other countries of the British Isles probably) do have this typical "British" ambience (yes I know, Ireland is not British ) which is quite different from the ambience of other European countries, like that of the Netherlands or Germany! And I know loads of people who actually think the same. I'm not only talking of landscapes and architecture but also of culture.
Porthos

Icke wrote:
I don't think you can say that the Netherlands are more similar to England than to Germany. Of course, you can't compare southern Bavaria with Holland, but Bavaria isn't Germany either. When most people think of Germany, they seldom seem to have the image of Central or Northern Germany in mind, but that of the alpine region of Germany.
When I've been to Ireland for instance, I didn't notice much of a difference between this country and England. So, I feel that those countries (together with the other countries of the British Isles probably) do have this typical "British" ambience (yes I know, Ireland is not British ) which is quite different from the ambience of other European countries, like that of the Netherlands or Germany! And I know loads of people who actually think the same. I'm not only talking of landscapes and architecture but also of culture.


I would agree with that. But Europe has this cultural continuum, where the ambience of the Netherlands is much like northwestern Germany and England, but very different from Bavaria and Austria. The British Isles would have a somewhat unique ambience due to the fact that they're situated off the coast of the continent, both foggy, damp, green, cold, English speaking, beer-binge-drinking countries, with the same architecture, landscape, similar eating habits, and a shared language.

In my mind, you can divide northern Europe into several cultural entities. The British Isles could fit into one category, and the Netherlands and northern Germany could fit in another, while under different classification, the British Isles and the Netherlands could fit together, and Germany, with a Bavarian-centric mentality, could be in another group with Austria and Switzerland. But I would say, that England's closest cultural relative after the other countries of the British Isles would be the Netherlands. And it's no coincidence that its language, after Scots, is most related to those found in the Netherlands.
fab

Quote:
And it's no coincidence that its language, after Scots, is most related to those found in the Netherlands


I'm glad to see that you recognise that there is a link between language and culture in larger meaning.
Porthos

fab wrote:
Quote:
And it's no coincidence that its language, after Scots, is most related to those found in the Netherlands


I'm glad to see that you recognise that there is a link between language and culture in larger meaning.


But not as much as you would like to think. Under your line of reasoning, Jamaica and England have more in common because they both share an "Anglo-Saxon" or "English-speaking" culture. But in reality, England's culture is much more like Dutch culture than Jamaican culture.
Liz

Porthos wrote:
But in reality, England's culture is much more like Dutch culture than Jamaican culture.

Go to Brixton (in London).
Benjamin [inactive]

I think that it is relevant to make the point here that there is no single 'English' culture as such. Many different cultures can exist in one country. So, culture in Brixton shares a lot with Jamaica, whilst Norfolk would not be very similar to Jamaica, but would be quite similar to Friesland.

Actually, if you ask people from England what comes to mind when they thing of 'English culture', they'd probably think of quite a rural image — small villages with greens, windy lanes, summer fêtes, morris dancers, country pubs, little medieval churches, afternoon teas with scones, that sort of thing. But if you asked them what comes to mind when they think of 'British culture', then they'd probably have a much more 'multicultural' image with ethnic and religious diversity, modern cities... and would probably include some reference to curry.
Uriel

fab wrote:
Quote:
I've been to both England and the Netherlands, and I didn't think they were terribly similar. And neither seemed like Germany, either. They all seemed to have a different flavor.



Uriel,


Really ?? Even an englishman like Benjamin could be confused... and you not ?

that's really surpising, since you told us a few times ago that you never felt any difference between France and Germany...

I have difficulties to understand how you couldn't notice any difference between two very different nation like those and not between very similar ones like netherlands and England...



I guess to each their own. I thought the Netherlands were a lot more like Belgium. (Of course, I was in Flanders.)

Luxembourg struck me as being more like Germany. I've never been to Austria so I can't comment on that. France even seemed more like Germany (again, I was only in the northern part of France).

Of course, all of them shared the same dismal climate and the same unsmilingness of the population. I suppose that's a similarity. Someday I'll really have to check out southern Europe and report back!

Probably we are all focusing on different qualities that happen to strike us, not the same ones.
fab

Quote:
France even seemed more like Germany (again, I was only in the northern part of France).



in what places have you been ?
What make you feel a similarity between France and Germany ? I am curious. I guess you have been to Alsace. I personally feel to be like in Germany if I am in Alsace - a region which was still German only 60 years ago.
Samwise

Quote:

I have a tendency to associate languages with the places they're spoken, the people who speak them, and the culture they represent. And due to my geographic location, I will often primarily associate a language like English with the United States, and Spanish with Mexico, whereas most Europeans would probably associate English with England, and Spanish with Spain.

I also associate English with the United States (and Canada).

Quote:


So to me, when I think of the English language, my mind sees sunny skies, sandy beaches, and palm trees of California and Florida, whereas for most Europeans, typical northern European things come to mind.


I see overcast skies, frequent rainfall, rocky beaches, and green trees.

Quote:

When I think of Dutch and German, I think of the northern European climate and landscape, a Nordic-type people, bland culture, northern European cuisine, beer, pubs, etc.


So do I.

Quote:

In my mind I also see all of the tanned skin, bikin-clad, vibrant peoples of southern California, Miami, Florida, and Hawaii, and Australia, and the warm, sub-tropical and or mediterranean climates associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that are not of northern European descent, but primarily Latin-American and Pacific Islander.


I see all the sunlight-deprived, coat-wearing vibrant peoples of Washington state, and the cool, rainy, climate associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that were born and raised in here, and the people that are from Norway, Sweden, Hong Kong, and Japan.

Quote:

Much of those things are not things which we would normally associate with Spain or Latin Europe, but most Europeans probably think of Spain in association with Spanish because of their close proximity to the country. As a Californian, a very different image comes to mind.


As a Washingtonian, I also associate Spanish with Mexico. Both seem very distant geographically.

Quote:

I have two sorts of images when I think of the English language. One is of urban US, because of where I grew up (and the beaches are foggy, not sunny)


The beaches are cloudy, foggy, cold and overcast.

Quote:

England is no less foreign to me as an American, than the Netherlands or Germany. Language is the only thing we share in common. Aside from that, England's culture is much more like the Netherlands or Germany than it is like the U.S.


Hmm. I've been to England. To tell you the truth, it didn't seem any more foreign than the East coast of the US. I felt perfectly at home there. It's hard to understand how you think it is a "foreign" country. Even the landscape and scenery are very similar. It's interesting. I guess it just has to do with where you're from. I've been to California, and it's just like being in another country--San Francisco, and Los Angeles. The climate, and landscape of those two cities were very different from what I'm used to. Also the sheer number of immigrants especially from Mexico--for example, all the hotel staff at several hotels that I stayed at were all Spanish speaking, presumably from Mexico. Where I live, most of the hotel staff are monolingual English speakers, born and raised in the US. Also, the fact that the second language in California would be Spanish. Where I live, the second language(s) would be Norwegian and Chinese and Korean.

Quote:

I think of English I think of America, and there is very little "Germanicness" attached to America, whereas England has a "Germanic", or "northwestern European" climate, cuisine, culture, architecture, etc.


Well, it's true the architecture sure is different. But some of the architecture is very similar to Victoria, BC just across the water. Parts of the East coast actually have similar buildings. As for the climate, London has about the same climate as Western Washington--about the same temperatures and about the same amount of rain and snowfall.

Quote:

the following imigration waves of the 19 had integrated in that cultural entity; even if they kept some etnic pride in their nation of origin and some superficial idealized characteristics.


Exactly. My grandparents were born in Scandinavia, but moved to North America soon after. They quickly assimilated into the new English American culture, and have culturally many more things in common with Britain.

Quote:

The British Isles would have a somewhat unique ambience due to the fact that they're ... foggy, damp, green, cold, English speaking, beer-binge-drinking


Hmm. Sounds just like here.
Walker

Samwise wrote:
I see all the sunlight-deprived, coat-wearing vibrant peoples of Washington state, and the cool, rainy, climate associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that were born and raised in here, and the people that are from Norway, Sweden, Hong Kong, and Japan.


There are that many people from Norway and Sweden where you live?

Samwise wrote:
Where I live, the second language(s) would be Norwegian and Chinese and Korean.


I guess there are many Norwegians where you live... they must be many.

Samwise wrote:
Exactly. My grandparents were born in Scandinavia, but moved to North America soon after. They quickly assimilated into the new English American culture, and have culturally many more things in common with Britain.


Where in Scandinavia did they come from?
Walker

Samwise wrote:
I see all the sunlight-deprived, coat-wearing vibrant peoples of Washington state, and the cool, rainy, climate associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that were born and raised in here, and the people that are from Norway, Sweden, Hong Kong, and Japan.


There are that many people from Norway and Sweden where you live?

Samwise wrote:
Where I live, the second language(s) would be Norwegian and Chinese and Korean.


I guess there are many Norwegians where you live... they must be many.

Samwise wrote:
Exactly. My grandparents were born in Scandinavia, but moved to North America soon after. They quickly assimilated into the new English American culture, and have culturally many more things in common with Britain.


Where in Scandinavia did they come from?
Elaine

Walker wrote:
Samwise wrote:
I see all the sunlight-deprived, coat-wearing vibrant peoples of Washington state, and the cool, rainy, climate associated with such places, and the multitudes of people in these places that were born and raised in here, and the people that are from Norway, Sweden, Hong Kong, and Japan.


There are that many people from Norway and Sweden where you live?


Very interesting. I never knew Washington was such a Scandinavian-heavy place. Minnesota, yes, but Washington, no.

Some interesting stats I pulled up:

Quote:
As of the 2000 census, the state population was approximately 5.9 million and the state work force numbered about 3.1 million.

As of 2004, Washington's population included 631,500 foreign-born (10.3% of the state population), and an estimated 100,000 illegal aliens (1.6% of state population).

The six largest reported ancestries in Washington are: German (18.7%), English (12%), Irish (11.4%), Norwegian (6.2%), Mexican (5.6%) and Filipino (3.7%).

There are many migrant Mexican farm workers living in the southeast-central part of the state, though the population is also increasing as laborers in Western Washington. Wahkiakum County, as well as most counties in the state, has many residents of Scandinavian origin.

Washington has the fifth largest Asian population of any state. The Filipino community is the largest Asian American subgroup in the state.

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