Does it ever seem to you as if Poles are Slavs who wish to be Teutons? They use a Roman script, they're Catholic, and more of them learn German than any other language.
Or perhaps it's not because they "wish to be", but more likely because of the interplay of historical developments which placed them in their current situation.
Fredrik
LOL, be prepared to be massacred by KSa!
Benjamin [inactive]
Re: Poles: "Wannabe" Teutons?
Porthos wrote:
Does it ever seem to you as if Poles are Slavs who wish to be Teutons? They use a Roman script, they're Catholic, and more of them learn German than any other language.
You could say the same about Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes and Croatians.
And it's no-longer true that more of them learn German than any other language (if it ever was). I actually know quite a lot of Polish people (I'm going to Poland to stay with Polish friends tomorrow, and there are millions of Polish people living in Britain anyway), and to be honest, the ones I know are the most anti-German people I have ever encountered in my life.
Pauline
English-speaker want to be romans, so they are Chritsians and use the roman script. It's quite a stupid theory.
i thought that before, the most of polish people leanred russian but now english then second place german.
Tiorthan
Re: Poles: "Wannabe" Teutons?
Porthos wrote:
Does it ever seem to you as if Poles are Slavs who wish to be Teutons? They use a Roman script, they're Catholic, and more of them learn German than any other language.
Roman script is not so unusual among slavonic Languages, beeing Catholic is, if anything at all, a sign of beeing more distant to Germany since those Parts of Germany that are closest to Poland are also those Areas with the highest Lutheran percantage. And for your last point ... For long years, at least on the German-Polish border speaking German was a matter of buisiness.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Porthos : this is not Antimoon.
KSa
Interesting topic, Porthos. I have no time right now but I'll answer it asap.
Porthos
I'm sorry everyone. I didn't fully consider the ramifications of such a title for a thread and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.
Allow me to clarify. I didn't mean for the title to be taken literally. I should have titled it differently. I meant to convey how in many ways, Poland is the odd man out amongst the Slavic countries, and that in some ways, it has closer ties with the west than with a country like Russia.
Benjamin [inactive]
Porthos wrote:
I meant to convey how in many ways, Poland is the odd man out amongst the Slavic countries, and that in some ways, it has closer ties with the west than with a country like Russia.
No more so than Czechia, Slovakia or Slovenia (at least).
fab
Quote:
Does it ever seem to you as if Poles are Slavs who wish to be Teutons? They use a Roman script, they're Catholic, and more of them learn German than any other language.
what do you mean by "Teutons", Germans or Germanic ?
I don't see in what sence using roman script and being catholic has something "teuton" in it. The German themselves have adopted roman script, which was once a foreign script like for poles... and catholic ? the majority of Germany is of protestant tradition.
Loic
I don't think it means anything that the Poles and the Russians are racially similar. It is just an accident of history.
In South-east Asia, the filipinos are largely of Malay stock. Yet they do not adhere to Islam. Many of them speak idiomatic English with a large proportion of them, especially in metropolitan Manila, qualifying as native speakers. Their cuisine might have Polynesian influences, but from what I see, it seemed to have been influenced by Mexican-Spanish cooking as well. Lastly, many of them have names which would be indistinguishable from that of a Latino.
Are we now going to say that the filipinos are psuedo-Hispanics?
Absolutely not!
PS: I actually find your question very interesting even though I think you probably know the answer yourself. But well, let's hear what Ksa -and hopefully Losseh- has to say on this subject!
KSa
Re: Poles: "Wannabe" Teutons?
Porthos wrote:
Does it ever seem to you as if Poles are Slavs who wish to be Teutons? They use a Roman script, they're Catholic, and more of them learn German than any other language.
Or perhaps it's not because they "wish to be", but more likely because of the interplay of historical developments which placed them in their current situation.
That Poles are Catholic is a consequence of „political” decision made by the first known ruler of Poland, Mieszko the 1st in 966. He preferred to be baptized in Roman Church so as to avoid subsequent German (sic!) domination - in case of potential invasion he was already a Christian of Roman liturgy, member of Catholic community, and this protected him against unjustified invasions.
In the next centuries Poland had been becoming more and more attached to Catholicism (Roman script is a direct consequence of having belonged to Roman Church). There is no way that we wanted to be ‘Teutons’, whatever it means, but we did want to stress our affinity to the western Europe (culture), as opposed to eastern Europe represented by orthodox Russia (another ‘foe’ over the centuries). Roman Catholicism was one of the major attribute of western culture at that time.
As for German language, it’s quite complex. In 1795 Poland underwent partitions by German-spoken Prussia and Austria (today’s western and southern part of Poland) as well as Russia (eastern Poland). So for many Polish people living more to the West and South, German was the official language until 1918 (when Poland regained independence).
After WWII the only desirable foreign languages Poles could learn (except for Russian, of course) were languages of the communist satellite countries (Hungarian, Bulgarian, Slovakian, etc.) . Poles’ strong affinity to western Europe remained, and the only western language they could learn without any restrictions was German (eastern Germany was within the same political system!), and they used to choose German very often.
Now, I should stress that I observe there has always been a clear division – people living in western, northern and southern Poland have been choosing German much more often. I, for example, live in eastern Poland and never spoke a single word in German. I also know relatively few people in my region who learn(t) German at school and fewer with active knowledge of this language. In Wrocław, Gdańsk or Szczecin situation is different.
To conclude, we (Poles) have never tried to be “Teutons” (“Germanic”) but rather “western Europeans” although we have been proud of our Slavic roots as well!
PS: Fredrik, Loic : I remember to answer you questions on other threads as quickly as possible.
Fredrik
Yes, Poland is such a big and distinct nation that I can't really see how one can feel it's "Teutonic" in any way.
But a nation which shares many characteristics with Germany and Austria, is Czechia, Porthos. In my experience, it has a lot of the quaint "toy ambience" that you find elsewhere in Central Europe too. The people are jolly, beer-drinking, bourgeois not very eager Catholics and the landscape is very much that of fairytales and miniature model railways with wooded hills, meandering rivers and bucolic villages and towns.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Re: Poles: "Wannabe" Teutons?
KSa wrote:
To conclude, we (Poles) have never tried to be “Teutons” (“Germanic”) but rather “western Europeans” although we have been proud of our Slavic roots as well!
Concur. Poles do have cultural affinities with French and Italians, for instance. Not to mention Wilhelm Apolinaris Kostrowicki (Guillaume Apolinaire), Fryderyk Chopin (Frédéric Chopin), Maria Skłodowska (Marie Curie) & Balthasar Klossowski de Rola (Balthus).
Porthos
Quote:
To conclude, we (Poles) have never tried to be “Teutons” (“Germanic”) but rather “western Europeans” although we have been proud of our Slavic roots as well!
Yes, well I guess "western European" would have been just as appropriate, although I chose "Germanic" or "Teutonic" because Poland is situated in the north of Europe, and because of the historical importance of German in Poland.
Benjamin [inactive]
Fredrik wrote:
Yes, Poland is such a big and distinct nation that I can't really see how one can feel it's "Teutonic" in any way.
But a nation which shares many characteristics with Germany and Austria, is Czechia, Porthos. In my experience, it has a lot of the quaint "toy ambience" that you find elsewhere in Central Europe too. The people are jolly, beer-drinking, bourgeois not very eager Catholics and the landscape is very much that of fairytales and miniature model railways with wooded hills, meandering rivers and bucolic villages and towns.
That's interesting, actually. Yes -- there are actually many surprising differences between Poland and Czechia which many Western Europeans probably don't realise. For example, Poland is arguably the most religious country in Europe, whilst Czechia is arguably the least.
Fredrik
Many Norwegians are actually quite Bohemophile for other reasons than Prague, as the Norwegian State Broadcasting NRK has shown a lot of Czech animations series for children: The little mole Krtek and the two good neighbours Pat a Mat. And of course the magical ČSSR-DDR co-production Tři oříšky pro Popelku! (It takes two Communist regimes to make a really good, feudal version of the fairytale of Cinderella!) We also got the lovely DDR Sandmann animation series. Can't remember any Polish ones, though.
Lazar
Benjamin wrote:
For example, Poland is arguably the most religious country in Europe, whilst Czechia is arguably the least.
Yeah, I had noticed that as well. It's weird that they're right next to each other, they both speak West Slavic languages, and they both experienced German occupation and Soviet domination, but they went in completely different directions when it comes to religion.
Fredrik
Probably because anti-Catholicism became linked to Czezh patriotism through the figure of Jan Hus, who was burnt at the stake at the Council of Constance in 1415.
Uriel
I had always thought Poles tended to learn a lot of French, not German. But then, I don't know where I came up with that idea, and I have to admit that Poland is not a subject that I'm particularly familiar with. I do remember reading that French was quite fashionable in czarist Russia, especially in the court, and that their interest in those fancy eggs (Faberge?) was in part attributable to a passion for all things French (plus I would assume that it fit in nicely with native Slavic traditions involving eggs, like pysanky).
KSa
Benjamin wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Yes, Poland is such a big and distinct nation that I can't really see how one can feel it's "Teutonic" in any way.
But a nation which shares many characteristics with Germany and Austria, is Czechia, Porthos. In my experience, it has a lot of the quaint "toy ambience" that you find elsewhere in Central Europe too. The people are jolly, beer-drinking, bourgeois not very eager Catholics and the landscape is very much that of fairytales and miniature model railways with wooded hills, meandering rivers and bucolic villages and towns.
That's interesting, actually. Yes -- there are actually many surprising differences between Poland and Czechia which many Western Europeans probably don't realise. For example, Poland is arguably the most religious country in Europe, whilst Czechia is arguably the least.
We are not the most religious nation in Europe any more! I just read that according to Eurobarometer survey Poland has been overtaken by Malta (88% Maltans admit that religion is important part of their lives). In Poland this percentage is... 87% but still it’s 1 % less!
As expected, Czechs are on the very bottom of the list with only 28% of the citizens admiting religiousness.
Mind that these are only declarations. For example in Poland only 45% of the population attend the holy mass on a regular basis in comparison to 50% in 1991 and 65% in the 80s.
Uriel
Those fanatical Maltese!
KSa
Uriel wrote:
Those fanatical Maltese!
So it's "Maltese", not "Maltans"... Good to know!
Fredrik
Aha. Because you call this:
krzyż maltański, I guess.
Even in distant Norway it's called malteserkors. Notwithstanding the fact that it's actually called croix de Malte in French, Norwegian, like English and German, seems to have gone rather Gallic in the case of Maltese vocabulary.
Uriel
The Maltese cross, the Maltese Falcon (book by Dashiell Hammett, film starring Humphrey Bogart) -- there's even a dog called the Maltese!
Losseh
Coming back to Teutonism and being the Pole... I can say that I don't know anyone who had ever wanted to be a Teuton (or just German). I can even say that I don't know any person who shows a shadow of sympathy to Germans (except teachers of German langauge :) ). In Poland, there is tendency not to like our western neighbours. Of course it's because WW II and our wars with people talking German language practically from the very beginning... Firstly - crusades against Slavs on teritories on today eastern Germany (yes, Slavs were there!). After the Polish had become christians - our main enemy was Holy Roman Empire, later Hospitallers Order (Krzyżacy) and after they stopped to be religious state, they became Prussians... Later occupation - 1795 - 1918 - We have got no reason to sympathize with Germans.
However on High Silessia (Katowice) there was a tendency of those people to pose as Germans. In fact, they speak Silessian, which is hmm, rather mix of German, Polish and some vocabulary from old Polish (sometimes it's treated like a dialect of Polish). During WW II being a German on occupied territories by fascists was an advantage. I find it to be a reason for this tendency. On a large scale it appeared only there, they had an asset and they effectively used it.
Uriel
Hey, Losse -- nice to see you back!
So, our two resident Poles say no to the German theory (except for Silesia).
How is Russian viewed in Poland, given recent history? My stepmother had to take Russian in school as a child in Hungary, and hated it (for personal reasons -- her father had been in the failed Hungarian uprising and it ruined his life). She also had a deep fear of communism -- mostly in the form of secret police knocking on the door at night, which happened a lot where she lived.
Losseh
Quote:
Hey, Losse -- nice to see you back!
So, our two resident Poles say no to the German theory (except for Silesia).
How is Russian viewed in Poland, given recent history? My stepmother had to take Russian in school as a child in Hungary, and hated it (for personal reasons -- her father had been in the failed Hungarian uprising and it ruined his life). She also had a deep fear of communism -- mostly in the form of secret police knocking on the door at night, which happened a lot where she lived.
Russians are like Germans in Poland - most people dislike them. And it is also not surprising. The era of communism in Poland lasted 36 years (1945 - 1989). At the beggining we looked at Russians as the liberators from the fascisct occupation... In fact, we got "from rain under the gutter" (Polish proverb ). Russians wasn't better from Germans - They didn't want to annihilate Slavs (because they are also Slavs ), but they brought political system, that noone enjoyed. Everyone had to work - unemployment was 0%. Proverb from these times - "Czy się stoi, czy się leży, dwa tysiące się należy" - "No matter if you stand or lie, but 2 thousands one must get" - Everyone got money for "being employed". There are much more things that communists introduced in Poland, in fact - they brought Polish economy to ruin - in 80' - inflation reached 600%!!!! Only by reforms of Leszek Balcerowicz we could rebuild our economy.
Some people, somehow don't mind communists.. hmm.. they even want the communism to come back how it's possible? I don't know. These people are mostly the elder (not all the elder, one part... fortunately - minority).
As you probably know, diplomatic relations between Russia and Poland aren't good. Russia wants to check our meat... I don't know what for, anyway it's a political thing. The same with gas... And at the end mr Putin - don't you think his ideas are a bit totalitarian? The Polish feel just small fear and respect to Russia. I think Russians can't agree they are not a great empire any more... But it's my opinion
with regards Losseh
André in Zuid-Afrika
Losseh wrote:
Some people, somehow don't mind communists.. hmm.. they even want the communism to come back how it's possible? I don't know. These people are mostly the elder (not all the elder, one part... fortunately - minority).
People often feel safe with what they're familiar with, even if it's a bad thing. These older people never kwew anything but Communism, so they're struggling to adapt to a new system.
Quote:
As you probably know, diplomatic relations between Russia and Poland aren't good. Russia wants to check our meat... I don't know what for, anyway it's a political thing. The same with gas... And at the end mr Putin - don't you think his ideas are a bit totalitarian? The Polish feel just small fear and respect to Russia. I think Russians can't agree they are not a great empire any more... But it's my opinion
with regards Losseh
I think you're right!
KSa
Losseh wrote:
Only by reforms of Leszek Balcerowicz we could rebuild our economy.
Yes, but at the cost of 20% of unemployment and millions of people living below poverty line. I'm extremely anti-communist but on the other hand I cannot understand this unlimited reverence given to Leszek Balcerowicz in our country.
He deserves respect: he actually reduced inflation from 500% to 1-2%year, made Polish złoty a strong currency and created conditions for investments and development.
But his liberal economical policy led in many cases to dissapointment and poverty.
KSa
Uriel wrote:
Hey, Losse -- nice to see you back!
So, our two resident Poles say no to the German theory (except for Silesia).
How is Russian viewed in Poland, given recent history? My stepmother had to take Russian in school as a child in Hungary, and hated it (for personal reasons -- her father had been in the failed Hungarian uprising and it ruined his life). She also had a deep fear of communism -- mostly in the form of secret police knocking on the door at night, which happened a lot where she lived.
Despite all my caution towards Russia caused by historical burden of the last centuries my attitude towards Russian language and culture is quite different. I learnt Russian in my primary school because I had to and now I regret I didn't put more efforts to learn it comprehensively. I like Russian culture and literature - especially Chekhov - and would like to read his books in Russian.
Uriel
Re: missing communism -- I think people sometimes don't realize that building a country is just hard work, plain and simple. And it comes from the ground up, not from the top down -- no flourishes of the pen are going to solve all your problems...in any country. And the early days are the hardest. But you have to slog on.
Daniel
loic wrote:
I don't think it means anything that the Poles and the Russians are racially similar. It is just an accident of history.
In South-east Asia, the filipinos are largely of Malay stock. Yet they do not adhere to Islam. Many of them speak idiomatic English with a large proportion of them, especially in metropolitan Manila, qualifying as native speakers. Their cuisine might have Polynesian influences, but from what I see, it seemed to have been influenced by Mexican-Spanish cooking as well. Lastly, many of them have names which would be indistinguishable from that of a Latino.
Are we now going to say that the filipinos are psuedo-Hispanics?
Absolutely not!
PS: I actually find your question very interesting even though I think you probably know the answer yourself. But well, let's hear what Ksa -and hopefully Losseh- has to say on this subject!
*gasp*
After reading the original post, I was going to say exactly THAT! You've read my mind. " alt="" border="0" />
), but they brought political system, that noone enjoyed. Everyone had to work - unemployment was 0%. Proverb from these times - "Czy się stoi, czy się leży, dwa tysiące się należy" - "No matter if you stand or lie, but 2 thousands one must get" - Everyone got money for "being employed". There are much more things that communists introduced in Poland, in fact - they brought Polish economy to ruin - in 80' - inflation reached 600%!!!! Only by reforms of Leszek Balcerowicz we could rebuild our economy.
how it's possible? I don't know. These people are mostly the elder (not all the elder, one part... fortunately - minority).
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