Private gun ownership

Uriel

Well, I've certainly seen plenty of people take the laws as more of a suggestion than an obligation....

Alcohol, drugs, guns, traffic laws -- my, my!

I'm a little hazy on what constitutes an illegal concealed weapon in my state, but I know at least one nurse who is pretty nonchalant about keeping a gun in her glove compartment, which probably qualifies, since it's both hidden and accessible to the driver (she's a country girl, and for them that's a little like American Express -- you just don't leave home without it!)

Drinking and driving -- we used to be #1 in the US for that crime. Seen plenty of people do it. Even drinking while a passenger is illegal in NM -- I"ve been guilty of that. Cohabitating with an unmarried partner is on the books as illegal here -- guilty again! (Repeat offender, even...

) I've certainly done things at work that would have gotten me fired if the right people knew about them, and since it's tax season, I'll just keep my mouth shut in case Uncle Sam's listening....

It's good to see you back, Walker, and I'm doing fine -- just got another promotion, and now I'm a department head at my work, which is amusing because basically ... I'm the whole department. There are no other employees under me, and I report to only one man. (Well, two, if you count the CEO.)

Walker

Elaine

Porthos

Screw Tio Samuel! I would rather give all my tax dollars to charity.

André in Zuid-Afrika

Deborah

Elaine

Elaine

Uriel

I liked Texas's theory on concealed weapons permits: if you could get yourself a driver's license, you also qualified for a concealed carry license. Basically, if you can drive, you can shoot.

I forget if they actually made that into law, but I remember it being talked about.

I think NM is a little more strict. Here we also require that you be 21.

Joanne

Deborah

Loic

I think the right to private gun ownership is a mark of a very mature society. The state trusts the individual to not use his firearm for malicious purpose. I find this a very admirable quality.

In Switzerland, reservists are allowed to bring their service rifles home. God knows the number of security barriers I had to go through just to enter the armskote of my camp to draw live rounds.

André in Zuid-Afrika

It is a sign of an immature society if there is a need at all for the state to allow private citizens to own guns (apart from those who practice shooting as a sport, and properly trained, registered hunters).

And any government/state that "trusts the individual to not use his firearm for malicious purpose", most probably believes in the tooth fairy as well.

Walker

Joanne

Hmmm.... from shoes to guns. A very natural course for a conversation to take, of course! Hell, I know I've always wanted to take a feckin' loaded gun with me whenever there was a shoe sale at Neiman Marcus!

I have a feeling the gun issue would've probably taken over the clothing thread, so I'm giving it its own.

Joanne

Walker

OK! I'm not against guns as such. In fact, I'd be fun to have one or two or more. I've been to a firing range once and it was fun and I performed pretty well. However, I don't think I'd be very comfortable with having them in my home; I'd rather keep them at the shooting club.

Loic

I still think gun ownership is a sign of a mature society that takes the concept of self-responsibility seriously. Of course, whether a society is mature enough to accept private gun ownership depends heavily on its stage of maturity.

I mentioned that Swiss reservists all bring home their rifles after their compulsory military training stint and keep the rifles with them as long as they are still liable for mobilisation. Do you see reports of gangland style murders in Switzerland with army issued rifles?

What is worse would be for the government to ban or severely restrict the guns industry and forcing the dealers to go underground to trade in the black market. People'd buy guns on the sly and they would not be regulated by the government. It's far better to legalise them so that they can be controlled with strict rules and regulations about gun ownership.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Loic

Au contraire, I am just placing my trust in the free market.

I hold a similar position towards prostitution. Legalise it, monitor it and tax it.

Joanne

Joanne

Oops. Forgot the link: Safest city, September 2006

Uriel

Fredrik

I agree with loic that there is something appealing in the idea of a free and armed rustic yeomanry, guarding their ancient freedoms from the days of Wilhelm Tell. At least when they do it as civilized as the Swiss and not end up as madmen.

I for my part, advocate banning guns in urban areas and leave gun ownership to the rural yeomanry, who know these things better. Just as I would like to ban all large dogs from urban areas.

André in Zuid-Afrika

KSa

Walker

Joanne, it seems a bit contradictory to me that people living in the "safest city" should feel the need to be armed to the teeth.

KSa

Walker

Uriel

Deborah

Uriel

No, no -- you're thinking of alien abductions!

From my research into such sources as Dawn of the Dead, 28 Days Later, and Shaun of the Dead, the zombification process works better in high-density areas. And dogs are immune to the bites -- well, except in Resident Evil.

greg in noord-frankrijk

Benjamin [inactive]

Uriel

Usually in your own home, you can use deadly force against an assailant. I can't imagine the rationale behind NOT letting you do so. But then, I'm a product of my culture -- the right to self-defense is something I would take for granted, as a law of nature, if nothing else!

I think this article kind of touches on some of the ideological differences we've been discussing here, and breaks down how Americans tend to see things (not all -- you will find Americans who run the gamut between say, my mother, who deeply opposes gun ownership; myself, who is moderate on the subject; and my grandfather, who had the bumpersticker "They'll take my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers." And that's just in one family!

Wednesday, April 26, 2006
More states sanction deadly force
By Kavan Peterson, Stateline.org Staff Writer

http://www.stateline.org/live/Vie...languageId=1&contentId=107276

A year-old Florida law sanctioning the use of deadly force to defend against muggers, carjackers or other assailants outside the home is rapidly being adopted by other states and already is being raised as a defense in at least three shootings in Florida.

Six states -- Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi and South Dakota --- already have followed Florida’s lead in enacting the controversial "stand your ground" laws, and Arizona and Idaho have adopted slightly less strict versions of the law.

Similar bills are pending in 16 other states, including in Michigan, where the state House on a 91-to-15 vote on April 25 sent a measure to the Republican-controlled state Senate.

"I expect this to pass the Senate equally as overwhelmingly because everybody understands this is a bill that protects the victims of crimes from being victimized a second time by civil lawsuits or criminal prosecutions," said Michigan state Rep. Rick Jones (R), who sponsored the bill.

The “stand your ground” measures, being pushed by the National Rifle Association (NRA), have been rejected in a handful of states, including gun-friendly Wyoming and Virginia. (So you never can assume...)

But the NRA has had other pro-gun victories this year. Nebraska and Kansas (over a governor's veto), became the 47th and 48th states to legalize carrying concealed weapon. Now only Illinois and Wisconsin forbid concealed weapons. In addition, Idaho and Virginia adopted new statutes prompted by the chaos after Hurricane Katrina that strip authority from law enforcement to confiscate firearms during states of emergency. (Here you see the American idea that private citizens are responsible for their own safety -- that is not just the purview of the police -- in fact, the popular conception is that the police CANNOT be relied upon to do that in all individual cases, and no one expects them to -- or wants to relinquish the ability to do so themselves.)

While it already is legal in most cases to use deadly force against an attacker in your home, (there you go, Benjamin) the new self-defense laws allow victims to retaliate against an attacker in public. The laws grant immunity from criminal prosecution or civil lawsuits for actions of self-defense. Arizona's new self-defense bill is more limited, extending the right to use deadly force only to cars and businesses, and Idaho's new law only deals with blocking civil lawsuits filed in cases of self-defense.

The NRA and other supporters say the new self-defense laws are needed to counteract so-called "duty to retreat" laws, which require that people attempt to flee an attacker before retaliating and which only allow deadly force as a last resort if it's clear a life is in danger. About half of states have such statutes or legal precedents, according to the NRA.

(I would actually tend to agree that the right to kill in self-defense should be only used as a last resort -- I think the NRA goes way too far most of the time.)

"It goes on common sense that the law ought to be on the side of the victim," whether they're inside or outside their home, said NRA spokesperson Andrew Arulanandam.

Critics, such as the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, have dubbed the new measures “shoot-first” laws and argue they would make it more likely that confrontations turn deadly and will make it harder to prosecute people who commit acts of violence.

"Unfortunately, the law has had precisely the effect we thought it would. A handful of overly aggressive individuals are using it as a defense for actions that appear to go beyond the pale of self-defense," said Peter Hamm, spokesperson for the Brady Campaign.

Since the law was adopted by Florida, it has been cited as a defense in at least three cases, Hamm said. The cases include a tow-truck operator who shot and killed an unarmed man who tried to drive his car from the tow lot without paying the towing fees; a man who got in a fight and then shot his opponent; and several individuals accused in a gang shooting that resulted in two deaths.

The "stand your ground" measures are among the most popular ever pushed by the NRA, Arulanandam said. In several states that have voted on the measures, at least one branch of the legislature approved them with near unanimous support, including in Alabama, Florida, Kentucky and Idaho.

Alabama state Sen. Larry Means (R) introduced a "stand your ground" bill after reading about Florida's law in an NRA magazine. Means said that he received an "unbelievable" response from his constituents in favor of the bill and that passing it was the highlight of his eight-year legislative career.

"I have received more calls in favor of this bill than any other legislation," Means said.

The only member of the Kentucky Senate to vote against his state’s new self-defense law was state Sen. Ernesto Scorsone (D), a Lexington, Ky., criminal defense attorney for more than 30 years. He said the statute would only make it more difficult to prosecute people who use inappropriate force.

"It's perfectly clear in Kentucky that you have a right to self-defense. The purpose of this bill was to sanction the use of firearms in all kinds of disputes, and that does not further public safety," Scorsone said.

The Kentucky Senate did vote down a separate NRA-backed bill passed by the House that would have shielded people from prosecution for bringing guns into schools that do not have signs posted at every school entrance declaring it a felony to carry guns on school property.

(See what I mean about the NRA? They get a little nutty.)

The conservative gun-friendly state of Wyoming this year rejected both a bill to allow deadly force as a first resort in public as well as a bill that would have allowed any eligible citizen to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. (And Wyoming is the Cowboy State!)

Wyoming state Rep. Stephen Watt, (R), a police officer for 27 years, said he was shocked that the House Judiciary Committee rejected his "stand your ground" measure. The House committee voted 6 to 3 against the measure after the Wyoming Sheriff's Association and state trial lawyers association testified against it.

Watt said that some law enforcers don't want people to have the right to defend themselves because that takes away from police authority. He called their opposition to his bill a "load of bull."

"Cops can't be everywhere all the time. By the time they get to the scene of a crime, the crime is already done and you're dead," he said. (Again -- the idea that you must defend yourself.)

Legal experts say that "duty to retreat" statutes requiring people to avoid potentially deadly confrontations are based on English common law dating back to the reign of King Henry VIII. The idea that "duty to retreat" doesn't apply in a person's home is based on another common law principle often called the "Castle Doctrine," which established the right to use deadly force against intruders in your home

So here we see that both national attitudes -- the one Benjamin describes and the one I describe -- actually have their roots in English common law. It's just that one country has gone one way, and one has gone the other.)

KSa

Deborah

Deborah

So in countries where you can be prosecuted for harming someone who has broken into your home, your filmmakers don't get to use a much-used situation in American movies: someone's been stalking or persecuting you and always managing to avoid being caught at it, so the victim manages to lure the bad guy into her home and -- surprise! shoots him, because she has the right to, since he was in her home uninvited.

André in Zuid-Afrika

Fredrik

Uriel

In my experience, it's the small dogs who tend to be ill-behaved, bad-tempered, and prone to biting. Bigger dogs are usually mellower and better-trained -- their owners can't afford to let them get away with being rotten and disobedient. I have a miniature dachsund, and she has been a growler and a snapper since she was 4 weeks old; my big 85-pound (40 kilo?) red dog is the most mellow and polite of the bunch.

KSa

Uriel

I think Randy Newman has a song about that -- "Short People Got No Reason To Live"....

Fredrik

Hmmm, don't some of these miniature dogs suffer from genetic (mental) problems because they've been bred just for size?

It's strange, everybody has always been telling me how good it's for me to be so tall (187 cm), but it wasn't that much fun to be the tall, heavy, red-handed boor at school. It could of course have been great if I was of the fighting type, as I probably could have beaten all my classmates to the ground, but I was an intellectual (albeit the only one who did farmwork in the weekends) who just wanted to be small and petit.

Uriel

Lazar

One good thing about smaller dogs is that they have a longer lifespan.

Uriel

True. But they don't always age gracefully....

Lazar

That's true. My neighbor used to have two tiny little dogs (I forget what breed they were), and it was just horrible when they got older - diapers, blindness, arthritis, diabetes, etc. She said that they go from infants to geriatrics. Around then we were considering getting a small dog, but she advised us to get a cat instead (which we did).

Walker

I went to the shooting range with a co-worker today. It was the second time for me. The first time, which was about two years ago, we fired .22 cal pistols, but this time it was a 9 mm. I fired 25 rounds and I tell you, the recoil was a bit more noticeable with the 9 mm. It was fun, but the weather wasn't too great today. It was windy and rainy and my fingers almost went numb.

Elaine, do you still practice shooting?

I learned today that in Sweden you must have been a member of a shooting club for three years before you may apply for a permit to purchase a pistol or a revolver. Also, the minimum age is 18. And of course, there are strict rules about how you store your gun.

Loic

Walker, are most men in Sweden familiar with guns since many of them have served as conscripts in the army?

I was in the cadet corps back in secondary school and I remembered participating in a shooting competition when I was 14. I couldn't remember the calibre of the rounds but it was an old Smith & Wesson revolver. I remembered being a flop, though as I took too long to reload after the chamber was emptied.

Over here, illegal possession of firearms is punishable by death. We do have a revolver at home though, but it is a service revolver and not a personal one.

Walker

Uriel

You just hope those Finns keep behaving themselves!

Walker

Uriel

I thought both of you were big fans of letting your winters fight your wars for you!

Walker

Uriel

Hellooooo....mukluks....

André in Zuid-Afrika

Walker

Oh, my God! Those are so...

Uriel

I don't know ... I kind of dig the pom-poms.