I've always thought of punctuation rules as being fundamentally attached to the languages in which they are used, exactly like spelling. For example, I think of English punctuation, French punctuation, German punctuation, Spanish punctuation etc. — this can sometimes be further subdivided into things like British English punctuation, American English punctuation etc. Thus, when I write French, I use French punctuation as best I can.
However, I've noticed that some people don't do this. For example, although Greg writes otherwise perfect English, he always uses French-style punctuation when writing English. So, for those of you who do not use English-style punctuation when writing English, is it because you don't know English punctuation, or is it because because you see your punctuation style as being part of some sort of national identity which transcends the language in which you are writing?
(I hope that made sense).
greg in noord-frankrijk
It does. I'm attached to Francoid punctuation because I find it elegant — elegance being, in my view, rendered by the use of lengthy space.
For instance --and this is the only time you're going to see that-- I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
For instance - and this is the only time you're going to see that - I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
For instance — and this is the only time you're going to see that — I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
For instance — and this is the only time you're going to see that —, I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
For instance — and this is the only time you're going to see that —, I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
Handwriting :
For instance, and this is the only time you're going to see that, I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
For instance (and this is the only time you're going to see that), I don't like double traits and I don't like them stuck onto words.
I know English punctuation but I never use it. Likewise that my fashion of turning phrases is in reality French in disguise.
Basically I'll never write things like these : hello! really?
Sometimes you have to cut a word in two with a dash when you haven't enough space left on the right-hand side of the page. I know you can do so almost the way you want in English — like accept-ance. Not in French : ac-ceptation, accep-tation & accepta-tion only are regular. A break like *accept-ation would be considered a mistake.
Benjamin [inactive]
Presumably though, you would use correct English punctuation if you were writing a formal text in English? You might not realise this, but extra spaces before question marks, exclamation marks, colons and semicolons, as well as commas after dashes, simply look 'wrong' and 'unprofessional' to someone educated in English as their first language, and give away the fact that you are not a native speaker.
But perhaps I'm making a fundamentally incorrect assumption here. My ultimate goal for any languages I learn is to be able to emulate an educated native speaker of the language as far as possible, both in speaking and in writing — so much so that I no-longer appear 'foreign'. That is why I listen to sound recordings of French and German vowels and try to follow pronunciation instructions as best I can. I had assumed that everyone would ideally like to achieve this in the languages which they learn; perhaps I was wrong.
I might have misunderstood, but it seems to me that you believe that English punctuation is inferior to French punctuation.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Benjamin wrote:
I might have misunderstood, but it seems to me that you believe that English punctuation is inferior to French punctuation.
No, I don't find either superior or inferior : both are mere equivalent conventions. I just find the one I use — which isn't exactly French — more convenient to me.
Benjamin wrote:
Presumably though, you would use correct English punctuation if you were writing a formal text in English?
Yes, probably : formality is all about conventions.
Benjamin wrote:
You might not realise this, but extra spaces before question marks, exclamation marks, colons and semicolons, as well as commas after dashes, simply look 'wrong' and 'unprofessional' to someone educated in English as their first language, and give away the fact that you are not a native speaker.
Certainly. But I'm not a native speaker !
Benjamin wrote:
My ultimately goal for any languages I learn is to be able to emulate an educated native speaker of the language as far as possible, both in speaking and in writing — so much so that I no-longer appear 'foreign'.
That's a noble ambition that should inspire anyone desirous of acquiring a very good command of a language *and* written conventions related to it. But I'm not taking on that challenge when writing in whatever language on the internet : too lazy for that ! In addition to that, I like the punctuation I use and hope it isn't too much of a hindrance, meaningwise.
Benjamin [inactive]
Fare enuff. Its just that I sea not youzing al thee offishal wryting convenshuns as tantamownt to spelling wordz howeva I wont simpli becoz I find it eezier. Of coorse, I can wryk lyk this if it pleezes me, but if I wrowt lyk this on a job applikashun, it wood bee throne strate in tha bin.
Deborah
Benjamin wrote:
Thus, when I write French, I use French punctuation as best I can.
I use the punctuation that traditionally goes with a particular language if I know it, but I actually don't know much. I know that in Russian you're supposed to use a comma before clauses starting with что (shto = that), so I would follow that rule.
Deborah
greg in noord-frankrijk wrote:
Sometimes you have to cut a word in two with a dash when you haven't enough space left on the right-hand side of the page. I know you can do so almost the way you want in English — like accept-ance. Not in French : ac-ceptation, accep-tation & accepta-tion only are regular. A break like *accept-ation would be considered a mistake.
When I was taught punctuation in school, they would only have accep-ted "accep-tance", but I believe it's now accept-able to divide the suffix from the root, even if it transgresses the rule about dividing the word between two consonants.
greg in noord-frankrijk
Deborah wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Thus, when I write French, I use French punctuation as best I can.
I use the punctuation that traditionally goes with a particular language if I know it, but I actually don't know much. I know that in Russian you're supposed to use a comma before clauses starting with что (shto = that), so I would follow that rule.
C'est la même chose en allemand : « Ich weiß, daß (...) ». In such case, it's still about punctuation but it's also related to grammar. Although *« Ich weiß daß (...) » is incorrect, the meaning conveyed isn't distorted while the use of the comma remains compulsory.
En anglais, le seul usage appositif de la virgule peut impacter le sémantisme : « Her son who is 30 lives abroad » ~ « Ihr 30-jähriger Sohn lebt im Ausland» # « Her son, who is 30, lives abroad » ~ « Ihr Sohn, der 30 ist, lebt im Ausland».
Bien que ces deux exemples reflètent deux fonctions distinctes de la ponctuation — l'une obligatoire sans effet sur le sémantisme, l'autre facultative avec altération du sens —, on est dans tous les cas dans un registre différent de celui que Benjamin et moi évoquions en introduction : il s'agit à présent de règles grammaticales.
Benjamin wrote:
Fare enuff. Its just that I sea not youzing al thee offishal wryting convenshuns as tantamownt to spelling wordz howeva I wont simpli becoz I find it eezier. Of coorse, I can wryk lyk this if it pleezes me, but if I wrowt lyk this on a job applikashun, it wood bee throne strate in tha bin.
Ou pour être plus précis : tonne ègzample montrent queue las ponquetuassion est l'aurteaugraf non pa dû toux leu m'aiment statuent.
Walker
Re: Punctuation
Benjamin wrote:
I've always thought of punctuation rules as being fundamentally attached to the languages in which they are used, exactly like spelling. For example, I think of English punctuation, French punctuation, German punctuation, Spanish punctuation etc. — this can sometimes be further subdivided into things like British English punctuation, American English punctuation etc. Thus, when I write French, I use French punctuation as best I can.
However, I've noticed that some people don't do this. For example, although Greg writes otherwise perfect English, he always uses French-style punctuation when writing English. So, for those of you who do not use English-style punctuation when writing English, is it because you don't know English punctuation, or is it because because you see your punctuation style as being part of some sort of national identity which transcends the language in which you are writing?
(I hope that made sense).
If I don't it's not due to some conscious effort to put any Swedishness into my posts, so to speak. It's because I don't know English punctuation well enough, or that I'm lazy or just confused in general.
Elaine
Hmm. I like how the French use « and » when quoting. Other than that, I'm really not accustomed to spaces between ? and ! and : -- they look like a typographical errors to me.
I'm also not accustomed to the German quotation convention:
„Das ist ein Zitat”
Do other languages employ such a convention?
André in Zuid-Afrika
Elaine wrote:
I'm also not accustomed to the German quotation convention:
„Das ist ein Zitat”
Do other languages employ such a convention?
We used to have that in Afrikaans, but switched to the international convention during the seventies.
Uriel
Quote:
I know you can do so almost the way you want in English — like accept-ance. Not in French : ac-ceptation, accep-tation & accepta-tion only are regular. A break like *accept-ation would be considered a mistake.
You can't just do it anywhere you want in English -- you have to make the break between syllables. So it has to be accep-tance or ac-ceptance. (I didn't know they had changed it to dividing after the root -- accept-ance just looks wrong to me. -ance doesn't belong by itself.)
Quote:
I've always thought of punctuation rules as being fundamentally attached to the languages in which they are used, exactly like spelling.
I never have -- I guess because I grew up always being taught that there were two different spelling and punctuation conventions in English. (Which you should have grown up with too -- or do they not really address the American style in the UK? Except to complain about it, of course.... )
Loic
Can someone explain to me why we have to begin a question in Spanish with an inverted question mark before ending the sentence with a conventional questional mark? It really looks odd to me.
Joanne
Because it's their language and they said so.
Lazar
loic wrote:
Can someone explain to me why we have to begin a question in Spanish with an inverted question mark before ending the sentence with a conventional questional mark? It really looks odd to me.
And they do the same with exclamation marks as well. I think the reason is to make it clear, when a sentence begins, if it's interrogative or exclamatory - something which, in speech, would be expressed by tone. Sometimes if you happen upon a long sentence in English, you'll start reading it as if it were declaratory, but then you'll find out in the end that it's interrogative or exclamatory. But this problem is solved in Spanish. Spanish writes questions and exclamations with inverted marks at the beginning and uninverted marks at the end, in exactly the same way that English writes quotations with quotation marks.
Loic
Lazar: That makes sense. It's just that it looks really odd to me. Spanish must be the only language in the world with an inverted exclamation and question mark.
Joanne: Well, that makes sense too!
Liz
Oh no, punctuation... That has always been my bete noire!
Anyway, I joined today...Hello to everyone!
I think I'll be back tomorrow or some day to write something sensible, too. It's too late now... I refused to go to a very good party because I have to write an essay for uni, but I'm too tired to do it well. So, I'm not doing anything beside surfing on the internet and writing nonsense on an otherwise sensible thread.
I'm leaving now...good night! [/i]
Liz
I uploaded a bloody avatar a couple of minutes ago, didn't I???? Then where is it????
I hope it'll show up now.
Once again...good night to everyone!
Liz
My file was too big...I hope this one works...
Pauline
Hi Liz,
yes it works and it's a great avatar!!! You can put as well your location or country if you would like. It's good that you've decided to visit langcafé after i've told you about 20 times the address, link etc
Pauline
Now I've noticed that you've written those infos!!
Liz
Hello Pauline,
sorry for having been that slow and not registering earlier. I have a peculiar aversion towards the "You can't post until you register" forums. It sounds like I'm a bit trollish by nature, but I'm not! Really!
Actually, I wanted to have a cartoon image of a snail as my avatar in accordance with my real personality! Unfortunately it was too big...No probs, I reckon Mr Garfield will do a good job of it, too, being the epitome of laziness.
Cheers for now. Good night.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Welcome, Liz!! Our first Hungarian!!
Lazar
Welcome to the forum, Liz!
Liz
Does anyone know how to add a quotation? I've tried it a thousand times, but it isn't shown on the message board.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Liz wrote:
Does anyone know how to add a quotation? I've tried it a thousand times, but it isn't shown on the message board.
If you want to quote a previous message, you'll find a button with the word "quote" on top right of the message. Click on it.
If you want to add a quotation from elsewhere, open the message, Above the message you'll see a row of buttons, one of which says "quote". Click on it, paste the quotation and click on "quote" again.
Liz
I managed. Thanks, anyway.
I thought it worked the same as the avatar - it appears even if you don't post anything new.
Am I the only Hungarian around here???
/jumps with exultation /
Are you for real??? What happened to Easterner?
André in Zuid-Afrika
Liz wrote:
I managed. Thanks, anyway.
I thought it worked the same as the avatar - it appears even if you don't post anything new.
Am I the only Hungarian around here???
/jumps with exultation /
Are you for real??? What happened to Easterner?
Ah, you meant a quotation at the bottom of your messages!
Easterner? Who's that?
Liz
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Easterner? Who's that?
No idea. The only thing I know about him is that he is Hungarian and somewhat (at least a generation) older than me. He has frequently posted on Antimoon and, as far as I know, here, too. Yes, I'm sure - he was a registered member. He might have deleted his profile then.
Yes, sure...I read here first that he was Hungarian. Later he mentioned it several times, though. Otherwise I would never have guessed it as he speaks (well, at least writes) English at a native level.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Liz wrote:
André in Zuid-Afrika wrote:
Easterner? Who's that?
No idea. The only thing I know about him is that he is Hungarian and somewhat (at least a generation) older than me. He has frequently posted on Antimoon and, as far as I know, here, too. Yes, I'm sure - he was a registered member. He might have deleted his profile then.
Yes, sure...I read here first that he was Hungarian. Later he mentioned it several times, though. Otherwise I would never have guessed it as he speaks (well, at least writes) English at a native level.
Ah yes, I remember him now. He was a member at the very first version of this forum (this one's the third) if I remember correctly.
Liz
I don't know exactly, but it was quite a long time ago.
By the way, are you an Afrikaans speaker? Just out of curiosity.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Liz wrote:
I don't know exactly, but it was quite a long time ago.
By the way, are you an Afrikaans speaker? Just out of curiosity.
I am, yes.
Yelina
Io Napot Liz!
Where are you from in Hungary? I went to Pécs 2 years ago and I also went for a day to Budapest.
Liz
Szia, Yelina!
I am from Székesfehérvár, but my family is scattered everywhere in Hungary and around the world.
Pécs is a beautiful town, too. Budapest is amazing as well, but I think it goes without saying.
Yelina
Liz wrote:
Szia, Yelina!
I am from Székesfehérvár, but my family is scattered everywhere in Hungary and around the world.
Pécs is a beautiful town, too. Budapest is amazing as well, but I think it goes without saying.
Well, I don't know your city. Indeed, Pécs is a beautiful town. However, I've been disappointed by Budapest. I thought it was a more pleasant and beautiful capital, but I haven't seen these aspects. One of my friends came back later to Budapest and told me we missed something the first time because she visited other parts of the city and she thought it was indeed a beautiful city. Then, I just didn't have chance when I visited it!
Liz
Sorry then.
Which parts of the city did you visit?
Yelina
We just spent a day there, so we didn't visit lots of things. We went to the Parliament in the morning. Then, we wandered in the streets to watch the buildings, the architectures. We walked along the Danube and it was amazing how dirty it was! It was full wastes, pieces of woods and it looked more like mud than water. In the afternoon, we visited the House of Terror. I really enjoyed this visit. That's all we did. We went to Pécs in the evening.
Liz
Yelina wrote:
We just spent a day there, so we didn't visit lots of things. We went to the Parliament in the morning. Then, we wandered in the streets to watch the buildings, the architectures. We walked along the Danube and it was amazing how dirty it was! It was full wastes, pieces of woods and it looked more like mud than water. In the afternoon, we visited the House of Terror. I really enjoyed this visit. That's all we did. We went to Pécs in the evening.
Hmmm...there you go! The "Blue Danube" is more of a myth than reality. However, I don't think the Thames or any other long rivers located in or nearby a large city are any better. What's more, Hungary isn't famous for being a particularly environment-friendly country, mildly speaking. That's a pity as there are so many beautiful places in this country but a considerable number of them is destroyed by careless Hungarians and sometimes by the even more careless tourists.
The Parliament is undoubtedly one of world's most beautiful architectural accomplishments. (Am I a little biased?) I don't think the ones who work there (I don't name names) are worthy of it!, though. What a waste of art!
The House of Terror...isn't the most pleasant place to visit by any stretch of the imagination but it is without a doubt interesting and exciting. I don't have a first-hand experience of it as I have never visited the museum. I hope no-one from my country will recognise me in this forum --- I don't want to lose my Hungarian citizenship! I'm exaggerating slightly but visiting the House of Terror is almost obligatory for all Hungarians. So, it's well shameful that I have never been there. But it's never too late...
Pécs in the evening??? Like black velvet...must be beautiful. Look at this:
Originally it's Budapest by night, but in this case it's Pécs by night:
Cheers
Deborah
Liz wrote:
I am from Székesfehérvár, but my family is scattered everywhere in Hungary and around the world.
Doesn't "fehér" mean "white"? Can the name of your town/city be broken down into meaningful pieces?
Quote:
Pécs is a beautiful town, too. Budapest is amazing as well, but I think it goes without saying.
I thought Budapest was beautiful when I was there in 1970. The most beautiful thing was seeing it at night from the river.
As for the brown color of the Danube, is it due to chemical pollution? I figured it must be one of those rivers like the Mississippi that simply carries a lot of silt.
Liz
Deborah wrote:
Liz wrote:
I am from Székesfehérvár, but my family is scattered everywhere in Hungary and around the world.
Doesn't "fehér" mean "white"? Can the name of your town/city be broken down into meaningful pieces?
You are right - fehér means white.
Well, meaningful or not, you can do it most of the times, nevertheless, not always. In this case you can, but it's a bit difficult to translate into English. So: "Székes"= has something to do with "chair" but in this context "chair" doesn't mean a piece of furniture. It refers to a place where kings usually stayed. Székesfehérvár was a regal town, hence the name. Last but not least..."vár" means "castle". It sounds incredibly stupid when it is literally translated into German: "Stulweißenburg". First, no-one can understand it. Second, it hardly ever expresses the intended meaning.
As for cutting place names into pieces, what about Liverpool? Liver + pool! I usually take the piss out of my English friends by translating "Liverpool" literally into Hungarian. You can imagine how much they enjoy it...especially the ones who actually hail from there.
Quote:
I thought Budapest was beautiful when I was there in 1970. The most beautiful thing was seeing it at night from the river.
As for the brown color of the Danube, is it due to chemical pollution? I figured it must be one of those rivers like the Mississippi that simply carries a lot of silt.
The Danube contains carries a lot of silt, too, but it has definitely got much more to do with chemical pollution. Not to mention the rubbish people throw into it. That's utterly disgraceful.
Liz
Hey, my post looks like a quotation! What happened?
Loic
My guess is that you probably made your reply within the confines of the quotation box.
Speaking of Easterner, he was an old veteran back in the previous forum. A very erudite fellow, it is a pleasure that we finally have another Hungarian to fill in the big shoes he left behind!
Since Hungary was once part of the famed dual monarchy of Austro-Hungary, how prevalent is German in the country? This is something which I've ruminated about sometimes.
Deborah
Liz wrote:
Hey, my post looks like a quotation! What happened?
Loic is right. To rectify the situation, you can insert "[/quote]" after my "fehér means white." Then insert "[quote]" in front of my "I thought Budapest..." and it should all look correct.
Liz
Oh...then that was the problem...Thank you very much!
Most definitely agreed...Easterner was (and hopefully is) an erudite bloke. I'm pleased to read some encouraging words from you, Loic, but I don't feel entitled to follow Easterner's footsteps, considering the huge gap between our age, experience and knowledge.
As for the prevalence of German in Hungary, that's a difficult question to answer. There are plenty people of German ancestry in Hungary, especially in the Transdanubian region, where I hail from. (I have no German ancestry, as far I know.) Although they have distinctly German family names, the vast majority of them don't speak German anymore. I find it slightly odd, though, that several people, whose knowledge of the German language is less than nought, claim to be German (according to the census).
The older generation of these people usually CAN speak German, but not necessarily the way that you would consider to be quintessentially German. The majority speaks in a Swabian dialect. However, I don't know whether it's the same as the dialect spoken in Baden-Würtenberg, Germany as I don't speak Swabian at all.
What I wrote about the Hungarian German identity could be somewhat misleading as there are even more people in Hungary who hate the German language and everything in connection with the Germans in general. It's really funny hearing someone with a blatantly German name say that he hates Germans with a vengeance! I think this peculiar aversion towards Germans is due to the sounding of the language itself (which most Hungarian don't find "soft" and "pleasant" enough), some historical facts (the short but harmful Nazi leadership in Hungary) and the loud and rather uncultivated tourists from the then GDR.
On the whole, I think Hungarians have a better relationship with Austrians than Germans. However, as usual, it depends always on the individual.
Liz
Correction:
plenty OF people
most HungarianS
Liz
RATHER: with Austrians than with Germans -- The way I put this in my message is rather ambiguous: it looks as if I was implying that Hungarians had a better relationship with Austrians than Germans do!
In addition to that, I like the punctuation I use and hope it isn't too much of a hindrance, meaningwise.
)
[/i]
/
Indeed, Pécs is a beautiful town. However, I've been disappointed by Budapest. I thought it was a more pleasant and beautiful capital, but I haven't seen these aspects. One of my friends came back later to Budapest and told me we missed something the first time because she visited other parts of the city and she thought it was indeed a beautiful city. Then, I just didn't have chance when I visited it! 
