| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Loic |
Religion as BusinessesWell, it does not take an industry old hand to notice that the rise of mega-churches in this day and age have led to a rejeuvenation of interest in religion among certain quarters. Mega-churches are churches with congregations which number more than a few thousand and they are often housed in glitzy new buildings that sometimes do not betray their function i.e. the absence of a cross atop the spire.What I am interested to know is your take on the phenomenol success of these churches and whether any of them exist in your neighbourhood. What do you think are the factors that have contributed to its popularity? What is different about these new churches from the old ones? I know this is a very technical question and I'd not be surprised at the paucity of answers. Nonetheless, I welcome any comments and insights as I am undertaking a project to market religion. I have thought of how some of these mega-churches have taken a customer-oriented route by catering their programmes to suit the needs of the congregation instead of the usual methodology employed by the 'old churches' which is more product-oriented. For example, it is not uncommon for the preacher to incorportate self-help messages into their sermons in these 'new churches' nowadays. It is about transferring biblical insight into contemporary context. I apologise if I have been meandering and if I sound incoherent. I appreciate any thoughts about this matter. |
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| KSa |
Loic: I'm not sure if I undertood you properly. I mean, I don't know what churches you're talking about. Catholic? Protestant? Other? I don't quite understand the term "mega-church" - you mean large one? | ||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
Loic is referring to churches which have thousands of people in the congregation on an average service. They tend to be fairly new, and have a reputation for being run like businesses. There are large number of these churches in the United States, with several in South Korea and Singapore. There are only a few in Europe, mostly in North-West European countries.
I remember seeing something on the television about a megachurch in London. What struck me was that every single person in the congregation was black, and that the church seemed to be run like a business enterprise. There's apparently one in Solihull, which is near to Birmingham. I don't know of anyone who goes there though. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
We have one megachurch in South Africa, the Dutch Reformed Church in Moreleta Park, Pretoria. A church building that looks like a palace, and they offer, amongst other things, arts classes, writing classes, and so on. Their website looks like the annual report of a major company, boasting about their profits. My sister and her husband lives close to the church, and should actually be members of the congregation, but refuse to go there. One reason is that you actually have to pay for your seat! :shock: :roll: I should mention that the congregation is in the affluent eastern suburbs of Pretoria. They're also very conservative, and is currently facing a lawsuit after firing one of their organists because (note, because) he's gay. |
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| Elaine |
I think the Church of Scientology would qualify as the biggest (or at least, most notorious) "mega-church" around here. They occupy some of the most beautiful, historical buildings around Los Angeles, including the Celebrity Center on Franklin Ave in Hollywood, and their sprawling complex/campus is right smack dab in the heart of Hollywood on Sunset Blvd and L. Ron Hubbard Way. Everywhere you turn, it seems the Church has got their designer label on some beautiful, ritzy building.
The Celebrity Center 
Building on Hollywood Blvd. Church of Scientology of Los Angeles Official Site What accounts for their popularity. Well for starters, there are a lot of kooks in LA. Second, people are always looking for answers that conventional religions can't provide. Third, Scientologists are very aggressive in their recruitment tactics. And fourth, with high-profile members like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, etc. they attract a lot of attention and there are some wannabe actors who think it's their gateway into showbiz. Oh, and then there's Crystal Cathedral Ministries in Garden Grove. http://www.crystalcathedral.org/visitors/ |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Artist's impression of Moreleta Park's building...
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
In France scientology is officially considered a cult, not a "church". I consider it a (badly run) business. | ||||||
| Elaine |
Oh, and how can I forget the Kabbalah Centre over in Beverly Hills! Talk about big business! You can pick up everything from instructional books and audio tapes to Kabbalah strings to Kabbalah bottled water.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Scientology hasn't caught on in SA (thankfully!). I agree with you, it seems like a badly (but very greedy) business. :roll: |
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| Deborah |
The Celebrity Center I hate to think of scientology running rampant in this building... My father was involved in it from the beginning, after reading Dianetics -- it's one of the reasons my mother divorced him. Apparently, he was contributing all of his money to the organization, and not to his family. Once he paid for 2 tickets to a seminar (one ticket -- unsolicited -- was for my mother) when we didn't have money for groceries. My mother went to L. Ron Hubbard himself and asked that the money be returned. He refused, and she had to resort to crying hysterically, which resulted in his returning half of the money. |
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| Elaine |
Oops! I completely misspelled Celebrity CENTRE! Heaven forbid I should use the low class American spelling! Anyway, the Celebrity Centre is where celebrities not only pursue auditing and training in a private and secure environment, but they also hold acting, writing, and painting workshops for the aspiring artist and filmmaker, and host fundraising concerts, benefits, special events and movie screenings. It's also got a five-star hotel, spa, and restaurant. It's much more than a church... it's a MEGA-CHURCH! :lol:
How awful. And I bet those tickets didn't come cheap. :( |
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| Julian |
I think I mentioned before on one of the last incarnations of Langcafé how my mom got sucked (suckered?) into that whole Kabbalah Center business. But she'd since come to her senses and left because she got tired of constantly being hounded for large monetary donations. As for Scientology, I have a few clients who are Scientologists, and really it's not a bad <s>racket</s> affiliation to get into if you're an aspiring actor, writer, artist, producer, director. They really do help their own fellow Thetans. |
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| KSa |
Well, I read once an article about how significantly the number of people visiting fortune-tellers or believing in astrology has increased in the secular countries of Europe in the past decades .
I think that these "mega churches" play a similar role, I mean they fill in the vacuum produced by the disappearance of "traditional religions". |
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| Deborah |
I recall my mother saying they cost $25 each. Using the formula found at this website http://minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/hist1800.cfm I was able to ascertain that $25 in 1953 (approximately when this happened) would be about the equivalent of $190 today. |
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| Loic |
Interesting. I totally neglected the existence of the Scientology Church in my preliminary analysis. I am not sure if Scientology aims to be a complement to mainstream faiths because I read that Mrs Tom Cruise still claims to be a Catholic despite having embraced her husband's faith.
I suppose the majority of the black congregation in the UK are of West Indian stock and the West Indies appear to have a very lively musical scene. Megachurches, in my understanding, have a very well established music ministry and they often have drums in their music. I can't recall singing liturgial hymns to the accompaniment of drums before, to tell you the truth. But there you go - megachurches probably recognise the supposed deficiency in other churches when it comes to singing in praise of the Lord.
I am surprised. I'd have thought that mega-churches peddle a very watered down version of Christianity that makes no references to heaven, hell, eternal salvation, etc. Having a conservative (read: prejudiced) outlook in a mega-church sounds so incongruous to me. Or maybe my understanding of how they work is more imperfect than I originally thought.
Gracias, Elaine! Aggressive recruitment tactics is part of an effective set of promotion package which mega-churches often employ. I suppose the Scientology Church falls under this category. Deborah: Now, my opinion of that church has deteriorated further. This begs the question of why it continues to enjoy a disproportionately high profile despite its largely negative reputation. I am largely suspicious of any organisation which enforces tithing. Donating is a very personal and voluntary thing and making it compulsory takes a lot of goodwill out of an act that is supposed to be spontaneous and generous. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
At the present time, Evangelical Christianity, which tends to be conservative or even fundamentalist, is enjoying success over more liberal forms. This is the type of faith which provides clear answers to life's main questions, and certainly suits some people very well. This is the type of Christianity found in most mega-churches, as it's what draws greater numbers of people in, even if they don't always stay for very long. Another thing I feel might be worth mentioning in this thread is the Alpha Course. I don't know to what extent it operates outside of the UK, but I'd definitely be inclined to consider it for the 'religion as business' category. |
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| Uriel |
Interesting to hear you say that. The Catholic Church is a huge business (it was once even a monopoly!), and my first thought on reading this thread about "megachurches" was Hey -- wasn't that what cathedrals originally were?
Cologne cathedral As for tithing being enforced, my (mainly Catholic) friends tell me that around here, if you don't tithe regularly to the church, it won't help you out either -- one girl said that a relative of hers who hadn't gone to church much died, and the particular church that he was nominally a part of refused to do his funeral mass -- they had to search and search to find a church that would (for a fee, of course -- whether you want to call it a donation or not, it's mandatory that you pay the priest). |
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| Loic |
It seems that the Catholic hierarchy in America comes from a different planet. | ||||||
| Deborah |
Just like the thetans in Scientology's mythology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_scripture http://www.skeptictank.org/gen3/gen01985.htm |
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| Loic |
A bit off-topic here, but what's the chance a Scientiologist or a Mormon can ever be voted as President?
It seems that there is prejudice against them from both sides of the spectrum - right and left. |
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| Shouga |
Pretty slim. But I think a Scientiologist candidate would get a lot more stick than a Mormon would - the general consensus of Scientology is 'completely crazy', whereas thoughts on Mormons are generally more 'so what do you believe in, anyway? Polygamy?'. From far off, Mormonism is probably more plausible than Scientology is. |
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| Uriel |
Ooh, you don't want to get into a polygamy discussion with an actual Mormon -- like we had the other night with one of our doctors, who's a stereotypical straight-up Mormon (from Utah and everything!). It seems the Mormon church itself outlawed polygamy long, long ago, back in the 1800's, and the only polygamists still around are actually heretic outcasts that the church neither condones nor accepts. (Many of them fled to Mexico, where one of our nurses grew up -- she's actually known polygamist families there. Which is how the topic came up.)
By the way, we have two Mormons working with us -- this doctor and our CFO -- and both of them are about the coolest, nicest, funniest, most laidback people you could ever meet. Mitt Romney, the Mormon who is currently running for President, is considered a dark horse contender with a shot at actually garnering some significant votes, because he is appealing to the socially-conservative constituency. I really don't know that his religion will make much difference on that level. |
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| Uriel |
Or the Singapore church does -- because tithing has always been a part of the Catholic Church as a whole. (Protestant churches also encourage it.) |
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| Shouga |
Yup. After polygamy became illegal, they issued two manifestos to the church, stating that they could not be polygamous (the reason for why there are many LDS 'denominations' these days, such as the Fundamentalist LDS church, which split from the main LDS church after the manifesto was made). But I know Mormons who still support it. I can remember an interesting RE lesson at school when my Mormon friend talked about how, although polygamy was a 'banned practice', that God still endorsed it and that there would be 'plural marriage', as she called it, in Heaven. Let me tell you that she got into a LOT of religious debate in that lesson! But yeah, Mormons are nice people. 
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| Deborah |
Since polygamy is no longer practiced by mainstream LDS and a "revelation" in 1978 admitted black (men) to the priesthood, the church is probably considered more acceptable by many Americans. However, women are still not allowed to have priest status, and they are still urged to make having a lot of children their main priority. | ||||||
| Uriel |
Well, the same goes for Catholic women, Hell, the same goes for Southern Baptist women! | ||||||
| Loic |
Tithing is encouraged, but not compulsory. I believe that the reforms of the Second Vatican have perfectly elucidated the position of tithing. |
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| Loic |
I hope you know and understand why women cannot be ordained as priests. As the former Archbishop of Paris once said, there is faith and there are opinions and we are obliged to encourage the latter while standing by the former. |
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| Fredrik |
Norway most popular Catholic priest, pater Pollestad, says it like this: Women are the stronger sex and they are especially good at inter-human relationships. If the priesthood was opened to them, they would take complete control and turn the church into an eternal coffee party, thereby alienting those believers who view the church as the last bastion of male compassion and caring in a society where all emotional functions have been taken over by women.
His words, not mine! 
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| Uriel |
Women can't be priests because the Catholic church says they can't be. That's all.
As an atheist, I really can't bring myself to care much -- just makes it another religion I wouldn't want to join. |
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| Loic |
I actually wanted to explain why women aren't ordained as priests, but I suddenly realised that I'd be a lonely preacher at the pulpit. I'd like to say that I deeply appreciate the point you made about tithing and how the Roman Catholic church was actually one of the world's first monopoly. From a business point of view, you are definitely right. It is also said that the Roman Catholic church was also one of the pioneers of globalisation. With respect to the ordination of women, I beseech all parties to not criticise something which they barely know about. I must say that I am not capable of defending the church's position in this matter as my facts are rather wonky and dare I say it, unconvincing. It'd be better to leave such debates to theological heavyweights who actually know what they say and say what they know. |
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| Uriel |
I just heard a funny story the other day that made me think of you, loic -- and your comment that the US Catholic Church may just be a wee bit different in some ways: one of the nurses I work with -- and picture this tale in a hand-waving, loud-talking New York-style accent if you really want the full effect -- told me without batting an eye that when she was a girl (this would put the time frame about 25-30 years ago), she and her friends used to buy their pot from the priests -- because it was the purest and highest quality marijuana available. Of course it was -- who would dare cut a priests's weed with something crappy or dangerous? You'd go straight to hell!
I couldn't believe it! 
But I know that when I went to Santa Clara U., a Jesuit University in California, the Jesuits there used to bottle their own wine on the premises -- they had their own label and everything. And despite that vow of poverty they have to take, they certainly seemed to know how to live the good life! |
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| Loic |
Always need a ready stock of wine to celebrate mass, Uriel! But I am struggling to find a justifiable reason for priests to smoke pot, not to mention selling them on the sly. Maybe they thought that marijuana elevates them to a higher sense of consciousness that brings them closer to God. |
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| Uriel |
You got me -- that one floored me, too! 
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