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| Porthos |
Rock bands from Germanic EuropeHere in America, we're not really exposed to much music from Germanic speaking Europe. For those of you from Germanic Europe, could you reccommend any good modern rock bands in your native languages? It seems like Anglophones dominate modern music in pop culture. It would be interesting to hear a Dutch rock band or something.But please, don't post any rap music. Seeing Europeans do a rap video is just too ridiculous to bear. No offense intended. 
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| Porthos |
Or Andre, if you like, you could post a link to some Afrikaaner rock music. | ||||
| fab |
If you really don't want to often the people pleas just don"t say "Europeans do rap is ridiculous", but "I don't like it". I actually generally find that the American rappers (especially the ones from california) would be more the ridiculous ones (especially in the clips in big red cars with kilos of gold on them... ) |
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| Porthos |
No, Fab, you don't understand. Rap music originated in the ghettos of America. It is traditionally associated with black people. Here, in the U.S., if a white person tries to be a rapper, or listens to rap, they are considered posers, "want-to-be's", who are trying to act "black". Most white people who try to rap and act "gangsta" are ostrocized here. Europeans don't seem to be aware of this, as they are just bombarded with American media exports, and the youth are just trying to be like Americans. So, to here Europeans rap in some Slavic language or French just sounds utterly ridiculous. | ||||
| Loic |
It might be incongruous at first, but it is definitely not ridiculous. Why don't you listen to a rap song by MC Solaar before arriving at a conclusion?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofOAdYPpz5Y As with every rap, it is useful to understand the lyrics. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Tu m'enlèves les mots de la bouche ! 
Ce qui est *VRAIMENT* ridicule c'est l'unijambisme culturel et linguistique... Un peu comme si on disait qu'écouter de la musique classique jouée aux États-Unis déclenchait automatiquement l'hilarité générale. Je suis de l'avis de loic et j'irai même plus loin : il m'est arrivé d'écouter du rap allemand sans réellement comprendre ce qui se disait mais le plaisir était intact. |
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| Icke |
In Germany, the genre „rock music“ is very mixed actually, i.e. there is rock music with either a pop, punk or metal touch to it.
The following song is sung by a band called „Juli“. I would say, it is pop-rock music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kIOkSTf1Fw „Die Toten Hosen“ is a kind of punk-rock band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppg539CkA8c The (often misunderstood) band „Böhse Onkelz“ made a mix of german metal and rock music. Last year, they ended their career after 25 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxNIZ_9lZOs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HwUGaYjlVk This is a song by Herbert Grönemeyer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJd57NIW4XM Here you can see a German hip-hop band, although I know that you asked for rock music only. I don’t think that you can compare American rap with European rap/hip-hop, because the latter developed into its own category. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1lRJneBmn0 This one is nice – it’s in English, French and German! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4ScdNBe28 |
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| Elaine |
Pardon me for saying this, Josh, but that's a very bigoted attitude you have there towards rap music. The blues, jazz, and rock & roll are universally recognized musical genres that originated in black American culture too. But back then, when white artists started appropriating these musical styles, people in mainstream culture mocked and ridiculed them for trying to act black, using black lingo, and playing "race" music. I see your attitude towards non-black, non-American rappers as being no different. |
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| Porthos |
Oh, I'm sorry Sander. Would you have preferred that I create a thread called "Rock music from the nations of Europe who speak a Germanic language"? Don't you think "Rock Music from Germanic Europe" works a lot better in this case, as it conveys the point in much fewer words? |
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| Porthos |
Come on Elaine. We're from the same city, so I don't see how our attitudes toward the matter can be that different. Rappers, or at least, true, authentic rap music, is done in the "gangsta" style, by inner-city minority guys, who dress in big baggy clothes, wear a lot of bling-bling, and talk with a "black accent". This is because they are just naturally being themselves. But when a White person, from a different socio-economic background tries to act "ghetto" like that, and wiggle his hands, and walk like a crip, he just looks like a silly poser. They're what's called a "wigger", which is a non-offensive term people use in the U.S. for a white person who tries to act like a black person. And it's even more hysterical when you see Europeans, who are completely oblivious of the cultural lines drawn in America, rap on television. They're rappers with British accents! That's ridiculous. Maybe in Europe, people can get away with it. But, all I am saying is that if they were to come to the U.S., and walk down the street, wiggling their hand, and limping their leg, and busting rhymes, then they would almost certainly be mocked as posers. |
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| Porthos |
Another thing is that rap is supposed to symoblize being hard core. So, for an American to hear a rap video in French (which we do not see as hardcore at all), it contradicts the whole intent of rap. | ||||
| Pauline |
Hallo porthos, 
it seems you not like it, when other people think of the « anglosphere » to be all the same, but you are thinking in a similar way : you make some judgements about the other languages, and how it's ridiculous in those languages performing certain music styles. So, for you, french people only can sing love songs, americans (only black) can sing rap, so what germans, japanese, slavic can do ? some traditional folk songs or someting ? |
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| Porthos |
No, not at all. I suppose you would have to be an American to understand my point of view. I think Europeans can sing pretty much anything except rap music, and American country music. They would just sound ridiculous if they tried any of that. But, I don't mind listening to anything else in other languages. I think rock music sounds best in Germanic languages, except that I like it in Spanish too. I know that's just a personal bias, but it's all about opinions. Hard rock doesn't sound very good in Romance languages, because it just sounds too pretty I think. If it's hard rock, it should sound hard core. If I wanted to listen to hard rock to get pumped up for something, I wouldn't want to hear it in a pretty, melodious language like French or Italian. | ||||
| Elaine |
I understand that. And I have to admit that when I see someone like Kevin Federline (aka K-Fed, aka Mr. Britney Spears)-- skinny white kid from Fresno-- wearing a doo-rag and rapping about being "America’s most hated" I just have to laugh. But other white rappers like Enimem, Everlast, Rob Sonic can pull it off. The point I was making was that rap music, like jazz and rock before it, has grown up and moved out of the ghetto. It's been embraced my mainstream American culture, Latin American culture, Caribbean culture, European culture, etc., so to consider it a black thing that only blacks can understand, appreciate, and perform is very old school, IMHO. |
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| Porthos |
How did rock music orginate Black-American culture? Almost all rock musicians have been white, with the exceptions of guys like Kravitz or Hendrix. Jimmy Hendrix was a pimp by the way. Salute to a rock legend baby! And Thin Lizzy had a black lead singer. Those guys were an Irish band, and they were pimpin too! | ||||
| fab |
I'm sorry Josh, but what you say just prouve that you are an incredibly close-minded person who can't even envisage that it can be other points of view that the Americans sterotipical ones... (which I'm sorry to say it are often close to racist attitudes) We know that in the US the people are always put in little categories in which they are supposed to not go out. You always think this this "categories" way of thinking for everything... and alway try to apply it to the realities of the rest of the world, and especially to Europe. For you Rap should be necesserally a music of the strick ethnic category of black people (maybe because it is a genetic stuff and blacks are programmed to make rap only - maybe blacks are genetically not able to understand melodies) "Whites" should listen only rock (without knowing that rock music was invented by blacks in the first half of the century, and that Elvis Presley could as the eminem of Rock - the one that wanted to be a black person) Hispanics, of course should eat tacos and only them have the genetic abilities to dance salsa or reaggeaton... Asians, I thing canno't make any of those musics, it would be too ridiculous. What could be considered ridiculous is your systemtic self confidence in subjects on which you seem not knowing much. You are American, you like rock but you ignore that rock was originally a black music, as was jazz, blues, and now rap... I understand that you are young and canno't know everything, but so you should be a bit more open minded and happy to listen and learn from other points of view, especially when they come from other countries without giving quick self-made opinions that you p^resent as absolute truths... To come back to the subject of rap, you should may understand the social situation of Europe. Maube some people made bad commercial rap that tend to make bad copies of an american fashion. But you should also understand that in Europe there are aslo gettoes, and that in these the economic situation can be very hard to live. The people who love there have the temptation to make rap music to express thair problems, because it is easy to do for those who haven't a classical musical formation. In the French poor suburbs (in France the "gettoes" are in the suburbs, and the rich disctrics in the city center, contrary of what it is generally the case in the USA) rap music is deeply implanted since more than 20 years, among those poor populations, where a big part of them are of black African or North African origins. Most of the people who make rap don't try (some do maybe) to be "black American" wanabees, but they just use rap music to express the relity of their own life, which is, like poor districts of all countries made of violence, bad relations with police and drugs. Most of these groups includes Blacks, Whites, or people of north African origins together, the "ethnicities" are not divided like in USA, and whites are not obliged to listen Rock. Since the huge development of french rap in the 90's, there have been a lot of differents kinds of french rap, some have evoluated to a rap with high quality of text, alsmot poetic in the french tradtion of "chanson à texte" (as MC Solaar) , while others have evoluated to a very politically violent hardcore rap, (such as NTM). |
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| Porthos |
Fab,
You make the mistake of assuming that what I say is trying to be past on as fact. It's not. I am only speaking of my opinion. I shouldn't have to waste time by stating emphatically "From my perspective", or "the way I see things" or "my opinion" every time I want to make a statement! You don't expect others to speak that way, so why do you hold me to a different standard? I'm sorry if I don't cater to your sensitivities, by phrasing everything I say in some elitist politically correct fashion. I was just speaking from an American perspective. And yes, Americans, at least ones my age, make fun of European rap, and dismiss them all as posers, because the whole idea or conception of "rap" is completely different in the U.S. and Europe. So, I will not use perfect termonology just to appease you. You're going to have to learn to deal with it. I find it ludicrous that you think I should start off each sentence with a "This is just my personal opinion, and in no way is it endorsed by the people of the world", as if I'm writing some copyright! When I write things, you should see it as my personal opinion. I don't know why you persist in assuming that I am claiming that my view is the only correct one. I am only speaking of how I see things. And sure, I will debate in favor of my opinion, but that is what everyone does here, including yourself! But to call me close minded and racist is just taking it too far. I don't ever see you concede a point. You can see me say that "I'm sorry", or "I was wrong", or "I see what you are saying now" all of the time. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
This is actually very interesting, because I have frequently got into disputes with Americans on this internet over this issue. I have come to the following conclusion: Where I come from, people really do say 'I personally think that', 'I believe', 'in my opinion', 'in my view' all the time. This is because it is assumed that you are claiming something as absolute fact if you don't. However, in the United States, people tend not to say such things, because it is assumed that something is merely a personal opinion unless it is made very clear otherwise. Am I right, perhaps? |
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| Porthos |
Perhaps you are right. It could be, yet again, a cultural misunderstanding. If I say something like, "European rap is ridiculous", I don't mean in the sense that that is an uncontested fact. It's just an opinion, since all taste is subjective. Or if I say that Dutch is not a pretty language, but that Spanish, Italian, and French are, then I am merely stating my opinion. We know that there is no way to clearly define what a pretty language is, since beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if I were to say that, it should be assumed to be an opinion. If I were to say that the sky is blue, and that for every action in physics, there is a reaction, then that would be a fact. But if we're talking about things which are debatable, and a person makes a statment with regard to that subject, then it is assumed that it is an opinion. "European rap is ridiculous" is a subjective statement, and in no way, does this constitute close-mindedness, or an attempt to try to pass it off as fact.
But maybe you're right Benjamin. Maybe Europeans and Americans just look at that differently. If that's the case, then Fab should learn to see what my actual intent is in writing. |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Anglophony, or at least, true, authentic English language, is done in the "RP" style, by upper-class southeastern English élite, who dress in suit and tie, wear a bowler hat, and talk with an "aristocratic accent". This is because they are just naturally being themselves. But when a person from the US, from a different socio-economic background tries to act "posh" like that, and have tea at five o'clock, and tries to speak English, he just looks like a silly poser. They're what's called an "Amerenglish", which is a non-offensive term people use in the UK for a person from the US who tries to speak English. And it's even more hysterical when you see Californians, who are completely oblivious of the cultural lines drawn in the UK, speak English on television. They're pseudo-Anglophones with Irish accents! That's ridiculous. Maybe in Ireland, people can get away with it. But, all I am saying is that if they were to come to the UK, and walk down the street, with their bowler hats on their heads, and saying « Oh dear ! » every minute, and speaking English, then they would almost certainly be mocked as posers. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
LOL!  Very true, Greg.
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| Porthos |
You still don't get it Greg. I suppose you would have to be an American to understand. Europe has been thinking one way with regard to rap for over two decades now. So, my perspective is not going to uproot your well ingranined opinion. | ||||
| Tiffany |
Let's not try to make this an us vs them thing, Benjamin, Josh. I certainly say "I believe", "in my opinion" etc a lot when it is my opinion. On the other hand, "The sky is blue." is said in this statement form because it is an absolute fact to me. I'm sure there are other people, in other countries, like Josh though, who think everything they say should be taken as personal opinion. As for rap, it may have started in the ghettos of America, but I think it foolish to try to appropriate a musical style. Listen to the words. Of course Kevin Federline sounds like an idiot when he talks about America's most hated as he hasn't got the first clue about the lifestyle that he "raps" about. When Eminem raps about it, he has credibility because he indeed had a hard life - he's not making that up, unlike Mr Britney Spears. But not all rap is about how hard you've got it in life. Many others use this style to talk about other things. I don't think they are not "posers", nor do I think are they trying to be "black". There are of course, "posers" as you say, but my point is I don't think you can equate just "rapping" (musical style) to "trying to be black". There's a lot more to it than that. The history of rock n' roll: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_n_roll. I've actually studied this in detail and it did indeed originate from black culture in America. |
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| Harrenys Targaryen |
Re: Rock bands from Germanic Europe
Kashmir and Saybia are two of Denmark's most famous, but they sing entirely in English. I still admire their songs, though it would be nice to hear a little dansk here and there. |
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| Deborah |
These days, the term "rock" seems to encompass a lot more than it did when it was first used. Fab, I assume you're referring to rhythm & blues and early rock 'n' roll when you say that rock music was invented by blacks. However, I was a teenager in the mid-'60s, when people started using the word "rock" (without the "n roll") to describe musical trends that were developing in primarily British and American white bands. Rock was not considered the same as rock 'n' roll. So even though rock had its roots in black music, the movement itself was primarily a white one. But, as I said, there seems to be a different meaning today (although I think Josh is using the one I'm used to). |
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| Porthos |
Yeah, I am. These days, nobody calls modern rock music "rock n roll". Since its adoption by mainstream America, rock has become an almost exclusively non-black movement, with the only exceptions being guys like Jimi Hendrix. Starting from the '60s, most black people have listened to R&B, Motown, funk, etc., and starting with the 1980s, rap and hip hob, along with R&B has been the predominant genre among black sub culture. Dave Chappelle even did a skit on the differences between music tastes in America, according to ethnic background. It was very funny, and although purely stereotypical, it was in a way, representative of America as a whole. | ||||
| Fredrik |
Yes. In Norway rap is nearly always made with an ironic twist, as both rappers and audience are very conscious of the gap between real rap culture and wholesome Norway. Rappers who try to imitate the black, US style without any irony are usually ridiculed in Norway, unless they are immigrants from the ghetto-like immigrant quarters of Oslo. In that case they have a little street cred. But Norwegians mostly dislike rap about guns and drugs and bitches. We like wholesome, ironic rap, like the one from the rural Norwegian dialect rap band Side Brok (= sagging pants); here performing "Din likkje drit" (= "You little shit") from the album "Kar Me Kjøme Frå" (Where We Come From). They just have fun with the language and the music and rap about their idyllic little village in the fjords: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltCPsp3Ia4 But even rappers with some street cred, like the hottest Norwegian rap group today, Karpe Diem, an Egyptian-Norwegian and Indian-Norwegian rapper, tend to play with the rap clichées, in Norwegian, of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayfg0oSrkEI |
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| fab |
It is true that today rock is generally not associated too much with black people. Times changes. It is the good exemple to show that music genres that are seen in the US such as rap as purely "black" may become a "white" music. In France, for instance, most rappers are of arab ancestry. This would seem strange for Americans, but the association with restricted racial groups is not the same in Europe and US.
The distinction beetween "Rock" and "rock'n'roll" has no racial conotations in Europe (at least in France). Here Rock'n Roll is just see as the rock of the 50's and 60's. Elvis Presley or the Rolling stones are considerd to be Rock'n Roll. |
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| Porthos |
See, in America, "Rock n Roll" was early rock from the '50s and and '60s. Anything later than that is usually just called "Rock". The Rolling Stones, in their earlier days were "Rock n Roll", but in their later years, their music was just known as "Rock", classic Rock. For instance, "Beast of Burden" sounds nothing like "Rock n roll". | ||||
| Deborah |
I reiterate: It wasn't any sort of rock at all! People may have said about it that "it rocks," but the genre wasn't called rock. |
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| Porthos |
It was "rock". It was just an early version of "rock". As rock developed, the name was abbreviated. | ||||