Benjamin [inactive]
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Romania and Bulgaria have joined the European UnionLet us welcome Romania and Bulgaria unto the European Union, who have officially joined today. I was reminded of this this morning as I was watching the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra on the television, when the conductor mentioned it at the end and addressed the audience in Romanian and Bulgarian.
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André in Zuid-Afrika
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The Bulgarians and Romanians are obviously very excited about it, judging by the celebrations. How does the rest of the EU feel about it (not a rhetorical question, just wondering)?
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Benjamin [inactive]
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Apparently not quite so excited, lol. It has been played down a lot here anyway — nothing like the major headlines that I had expected. If I hadn't been watching the Vienna Philharmonic on New Years Day, I would probably have forgotten all about it. Realistically, I suppose something about Romania and Bulgaria is never going to sound too exciting to most Western Europeans, LOL. Although I'm sure that the property abroad enthusiasts will benefit.
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André in Zuid-Afrika
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| Benjamin wrote: | | Apparently not quite so excited, lol. It has been played down a lot here anyway — nothing like the major headlines that I had expected. If I hadn't been watching the Vienna Philharmonic on New Years Day, I would probably have forgotten all about it. Realistically, I suppose something about Romania and Bulgaria is never going to sound too exciting to most Western Europeans, LOL. Although I'm sure that the property abroad enthusiasts will benefit. |
Interesting. It received quite a bit of media interest here.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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Perhaps part of the problem here was that there was another major news item on the same day — a very young girl was killed by her drug-dealing father's dog on New Years Day, and this has been the focus of almost everything so far this week. Stories like that always seem to attract considerable more attention, public interest and emotional response than political news.
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André in Zuid-Afrika
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| Benjamin wrote: | | Perhaps part of the problem here was that there was another major news item on the same day — a very young girl was killed by her drug-dealing father's dog on New Years Day, and this has been the focus of almost everything so far this week. Stories like that always seem to attract considerable more attention, public interest and emotional response than political news. |
That's a fact. Human interest sells, politics doesn't.
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Loic
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This comes at a time when further expansion has not been universally greeted with the same ardour as the previous time. Expansion fatigue, they say. Besides, the economic challenges which the two new entrants face are herculean, to say the least.
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Pauline
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The most of criminals here are romanian illegal immigrants. They have gangs who go to houses and steal things. Romania is terrible for human rights and it's a bad thing that it is in the UE. I don't know about Bulgaria.
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greg in noord-frankrijk
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| Pauline wrote: | | The most of criminals here are romanian illegal immigrants. They have gangs who go to houses and steal things. Romania is terrible for human rights and it's a bad thing that it is in the UE. I don't know about Bulgaria. |
That some among the immigrants who left home with the goal of getting better-off in life elsewhere end up in thievery or crime in general isn't that surprising. No society is ideal enough to welcome the needy and provide them with all they want at once — even more so when those people can neither speak the language nor follow the local social codes used by the natives, whose own economic condition can, moreover, already be affected by unemployment or precariousness for instance.
I don't know what Romania's credentials regarding human rights are. However, expecting them to catch up with those of the EU anytime soon is perhaps not too optimistic a consideration ?
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Pauline
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| greg in noord-frankrijk wrote: | | That some among the immigrants who left home with the goal of getting better-off in life elsewhere end up in thievery or crime in general isn't that surprising. |
Yes, I agree but the balance is different. For exemple the immigrants from other countries mostly they're working or if they don't have work they don't end up in crime but the romanians want to be in crime it's their profession. The other profession of them is begging and they put their children to look dirty on the street then asking for money also when they're receiving money from the belgian state. The other immigrants didn't never did this - people from Congo, Poland etc.. There's a problem also with russian immigrants because they've a mafia but it's other crime.
| Quote: | | No society is ideal enough to welcome the needy and provide them with all they want at once — even more so when those people can neither speak the language nor follow the local social codes used by the natives, whose own economic condition can, moreover, already be affected by unemployment or precariousness for instance. |
Yes, it's true : I think the same. But (legal) immigrants here can have free lessons for learn french and all the people go there but the romanians don't despite for them learn french would be easy because their language isn't so different like polish or other ones.
| Quote: | | I don't know what Romania's credentials regarding human rights are. However, expecting them to catch up with those of the EU anytime soon is perhaps not too optimistic a consideration ? |
Romania's credentials regarding human rights are truly terrible, especially for children. There are many who live on the street and other ones who are in orphanages where they are tied on their bed and not ever get some attention. After Ceaucescu it was the opportunity for improve this but the romanian poeple don't care at all so it continue. They don't want catch up about human rights they want only catch up economic. I can undertsand that they want more wealth : this is for every country the same, but romanians are cruel.
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Loic
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| Quote: | | this is for every country the same, but romanians are cruel. |
Of course. Peril lies in wait for unwary visitors if they happen to bump into a certain bloodthirsty count called Dracula, arguably the most famous Romanian of all.
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Pauline
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| loic wrote: | | Quote: | | this is for every country the same, but romanians are cruel. |
Of course. Peril lies in wait for unwary visitors if they happen to bump into a certain bloodthirsty count called Dracula, arguably the most famous Romanian of all. |
Loic,
Your message, it's a joke or sarcasme ? You know that Dracula don't anymore live.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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I will always have a certain attachment to Romania for reasons completely unconnected to this discussion, however I do think that it is possible for Romania to catch up:
When I first went to Dublin about 11 years ago, Ireland was essentially still the poorest country in Western Europe. There were beggars everywhere — including children, disabled people, and even disabled children. And these were not immigrants, they were Irish people. Although the centre of Dublin was reasonably nice, many of the areas the bus went through to the airport were dreadful. Healthcare in Ireland was still substandard at that time as well.
Today, everything has changed. In terms of GDP per-capita, Ireland is now the fourth richest country in the world. I haven't been there for several years, but people who have been there recently say that it is very different from how it used to be — you see a lot of people in expensive clothes, driving fancy cars etc.
So yes, I'm sure that is perfectly possible for Romania to catch up, considering that its current state is comparable to that of Ireland 10 or 15 years ago.
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Pauline
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Benjamin,
It's great that Ireland don't anymore have those terrible problems and that it did catch up, but I don't see the parallel with Romania. You have looked only to the economic position of wealth in the world, but there are more things.
The thing most evident is the recent history and the effect on present social values and morals. Religion, of course can be a big part of this, but I think that the dictatorship of Ceaucescu had an enormous infuence on the social attitudes of romanians. Ireland as far as I know had already good eductaed people, but Romania don't have.
I suppose that Romania will catch up economic and be more wealthy. This is a good thing because wealth is very unjust distributed in the world, also in Europe and Romania is an exemple of it. But, human rights and attitudes are other things.
I've thought before, that for be member of the UE a country must have a sufficiently well record of human rights (one reason why not Turkey can't join) but now suddenly it's appear to be not important. In truth it's because politicians can make personal gain from Romania and Bulgaria in the UE : they can invest / buy business with cheap labour but UE labour so therefore without permits required etc.. they can buy cheap real estate and without doubt many more financial benefits. This isn't cynical but realsim : there is very much corruption in the governments and there's reason why don't they telling us more about Romania and Bulgaria but maintain extremely low profile.
For Poland, Baltic States, Hungary, Czech Republic etc... it's not a problem. Economic differences between there and western countries are big but they will catch up. The difference critical between this new UE countries and Romania is the eductaion of the population, social attiudes and human rights. This is my opinion and it will change only if Romania will truly respect its citizens and especially the people who live on the streets and orphanages. They can becoem the most richest country in the world but if the human rights don't be respected I don't resepct the country. If the US would not have Guantanamo or capital punishment then I would have more respect for the US - I don't just find bad Romania for this, but Romania is a terrible cruel place.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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You're right, economics is a relatively minor factor in this. I must confess that I don't really know very much about Romania. All I really know about as far as Romania is concerned are the Unitarians in rural Transylvania, all of whom are ethnic Hungarians.
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Pauline
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Hungarians are completely different that romanians. I think that it's very good that Hungary has joined the union. For the hungarian minoriyt in Romania life must be very difficult.
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greg in noord-frankrijk
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Pauline : tu as un préjugé négatif à l'égard de la Roumanie. Non pas que ce pays soit le paradis sur Terre ; mais tu risques d'être (agréablement) surprise.
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Loic
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Yes, I was being a tad sarcastic, Pauline. You're apparently not a connoisseur of sarcasm. But maybe you were being sarcastic yourself when you made a sweeping generalisation that all Romanians are cruel.
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Pauline
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| loic wrote: | | Yes, I was being a tad sarcastic, Pauline. You're apparently not a connoisseur of sarcasm. But maybe you were being sarcastic yourself when you made a sweeping generalisation that all Romanians are cruel. |
No, I weren't being sarcastic. Never I'm being sarcastic. I'm not so clever to know when someone is sarcastic or seriously telling their opinion or make a joke. It's why I've asked you. Sometimes it's evident to me that it's a joke but your message I wasn't certain how it was meaned.
I find that romanians are cruel : this is my opinion based on what I know of how they treat the children in the orphanages.
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Daniel
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| Pauline wrote: | | loic wrote: | | Yes, I was being a tad sarcastic, Pauline. You're apparently not a connoisseur of sarcasm. But maybe you were being sarcastic yourself when you made a sweeping generalisation that all Romanians are cruel. |
No, I weren't being sarcastic. Never I'm being sarcastic. I'm not so clever to know when someone is sarcastic or seriously telling their opinion or make a joke. It's why I've asked you. Sometimes it's evident to me that it's a joke but your message I wasn't certain how it was meaned.
I find that romanians are cruel : this is my opinion based on what I know of how they treat the children in the orphanages. |
But surely, not all Romanians are cruel just because of how they treat the children in orphanages?
Isn't that an unfair stereotype?
This is also the case in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Are you then saying that all Slovaks and Czechs are cruel?
And you mustn't like Chinese people either because they also put away female babies in orphanages and pretend they don't exist so that they are neglected and then starve to death with their hands and feet tied together... all because the innocent babies were female and were first-born.
Or you mustn't like Filipinos either because police in the Philippines grab children as young as 5 doing petty crime and throw them in jail (mixing with adults) without trial or even informing their parents at all.
Ever since Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU, illegal immigrants come here and use their children to go and steal people's properties as they sit and relax in coffee bars. Yet, that still doesn't change my opinion of the Bulgarians and Romanians being generally hard-working and honest people who just want the best out of their lives.
My point is that you can't slap the label "CRUEL" on the whole population within an ethnic group just because of the action of a few people...
After all, regardless of creed, religion, sexuality, ethnic group, etc. everybody is an individual with a unique personality.
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Fredrik
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True, but when Pauline says "Romanians are cruel" I interpret it as meaning Romanians as a body politic, as a national collective. Everybody knows that most people are OK on an individual basis, it's the collective that can be very fascist if some negative influences prevail!
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Pauline
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I find that the romanians are cruel. It's my opinion and it will not chnage before the romanians will change the orphanages. Unfortunatly it's not few people, like you wrote, but all the country and since *very* many years the same.
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Pauline
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| Fredrik wrote: | | True, but when Pauline says "Romanians are cruel" I interpret it as meaning Romanians as a body politic, as a national collective. Everybody knows that most people are OK on an individual basis, it's the collective that can be very fascist if some negative influences prevail! |
Yes, a national collective, the culture, the predominant values etc..
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Daniel
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Well, I can only hope that you'll meet a decent Romanian and change your mind. 
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