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Porthos

Should I learn Dutch or German?

After I learn French in a few years from now, I would like to learn another Germanic language, so that I speak two Germanic languages, and two Romance languages. Yet, I don't know if I should learn Dutch or German? There's roughly about 100 million Germanophones in Europe, and about 20 million Dutch speakers in Europe, so by the numbers, it would probably be more advantageous to learn German. But I know that Dutch is closer to English than German is. So, would the relative easiness of Dutch more than account for the superior number of German speakers as a factor for learning Dutch over German?
Benjamin [inactive]

If it's essentially about ease of learning and similarities with English, and your not particular bothered about which other Germanic language you speak, then you might as well go for Afrikaans instead.
Porthos

I don't plan on visiting S. African any time soon. Being that I live in the America's, most of my neighbors speak Spanish, along with some French, so these are more important languages. But, I would like to learn another Germanic language just to broaden my horizons so to speak. Dutch and German I figure would be the easiest.
Sander

When people talk about Dutch closeness to English, they always speak about grammar. It's becoming a cliché but really, if you're good at foreign grammar, learn German.

In their relation to Common West Germanic, Dutch is the closest soundwise. So if that's a pro for you ... some people get a kick out learning these kind of languages, like those scandanavians learning Icelandic. As for sounds ... Dutch truly is exotic, it's quite special. While a German accent in English, to me, comes pretty close to actual German.

On the otherhand, some people like to a "show off" with the fact that they are able to speak a grammatically complicated language ... now, the differences in grammar aren't "that" big between German and Dutch but they're definately there.

It all depends on where you' re going to use it for...
Benjamin [inactive]

Or you could always be eccentric and learn Frisian or Low Saxon instead — English is definitely closer to Frisian and probably also to Low Saxon as well than to either Dutch or German.
Pauline

Sander wrote:
As for sounds ... Dutch truly is exotic, it's quite special.
what you find so truly exotic and special about dutch ?

I think, that dutch is fun to learn, but it sound absolutley horrible, especially when spoken by people from the Randstad. The « r » they have there is like an american one, and how they talk is ugly. I think that dutch hasn't unique things at all.

I have *not* wrote this to annoy you, but because it interest me to discover why a dutchman will find his language so exotic and special.
--------------------------------------------

Hallo Porthos,

I agree with Sander :confused2: LOL !!! that German would be a good choice, if you can't decide dutch or german. Its grammar is diffcult, but for sure there are languages who have an even more compliacted grammar.
Sander

Benjamin wrote:
Or you could always be eccentric and learn Frisian or Low Saxon instead — English is definitely closer to Frisian and probably also to Low Saxon as well than to either Dutch or German.

Yeah but where does someone find a teacher for those languages? I think people living in the area itself are having trouble in finding those how would he ever find one?
Benjamin [inactive]

Sander wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Or you could always be eccentric and learn Frisian or Low Saxon instead — English is definitely closer to Frisian and probably also to Low Saxon as well than to either Dutch or German.

Yeah but where does someone find a teacher for those languages? I think people living in the area itself are having trouble in finding those how would he ever find one?

Then you learn it on your own. I've only had ten mornings of German lessons, but I'm still able to have reasonably intelligent conversations in it (spoken though, not really written) about subjects such as German linguistics and immigration to Germany, and I can follow what is said to me to a large extent as long as it is not too academic or literary.
Porthos

Yeah, you would be suprised what you can teach yourself. I've never had any foreign language lessons in my life! But in college, I'm going to take a lot of classes on Spanish and French, so I can speak Spanish on a more literary level, and become fluent in French. After that, I might learn a Germanic language, but it would definitely be a W. Germanic language for convinience sake. And it's just not practical at all for me to learn a minor language like Frisian.

If you guys had to choose, what Germanic language would you say is a central mediator between all of the Germanic languages? Would it be standard German?
Pauline

Porthos wrote:
Yeah, you would be suprised what you can teach yourself.
I think that you can teach yourself a language, but you will need to have someone who can tell you where are your mistakes. I have tought me spanish, but sometimes I would like to ask questions, so to have a teacher for some lessons is also very useful.

Porthos wrote:
And it's just not practical at all for me to learn a minor language like Frisian.
how pointless, it would be to learn frisian !!!

Porthos wrote:
If you guys had to choose, what Germanic language would you say is a central mediator between all of the Germanic languages? Would it be standard German?
I can't say, what is a central mediator because I haven't any idea, but German is useful in Europe : it's the mother tongue of people in several countries, and spoken by even many more. Standard German is the best to learn, and then you can look at dialects etc... if those interest you.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
If you guys had to choose, what Germanic language would you say is a central mediator between all of the Germanic languages? Would it be standard German?

No. If I really had to choose one language as a central mediator between West Germanic languages, I'd probably go with Low Saxon. It is the South-West Germanic language which is usually considered the most similar to the Anglo-Frisian Languages (English, Scots, Frisian), but can also seem like a sort of 'intermediary' (in layman's terms) between Standard German and Dutch, which are the two largest South-West Germanic languages.

It's rather more difficult to include North Germanic languages in this though, but perhaps Low Saxon might still fit the best (I can't think what else might).
Pauline

Hi Benjamin,

I thought, that the link between german and dutch can be found in some limburg dialects, and ones of west germany for exemple cologne.

I have heared, that in cologne, the dialect is the same (more or less) than in south east limburg in the Netherlands. In the Euregio, the borders area Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, there are dialects in those countries who people can understand each other better, than if they would converse in the official languages, especially when those would not be the same official one i.e. german not dutch and vice versa.

But, I'm not a linguist, and I know nothing about linguistic.

What exactly is Low Saxon ? It's a dialect of standard german ? Sorry that I'm ignorant of this things.
Losseh

It can be said, that low saxon known as Plattdüütsch is a link between German and Dutch. Actually, it is German language with influence of Scandinavian languages (snacken - to speak, from snakken (scand.) not from sprechen (germ. of course)) and without the Great vowel shift. Many words look like Dutch - Ik, dat, wat, drinken etc. There are many Low Saxon varieties, some are more similar to Standard Deutsch, some are more similar to Dutch. It can be written using German spelling or ANS one. Some more information you can get on:

http://www.plattmaster.de/startenglish.htm
André in Zuid-Afrika

Pauline wrote:
Sander wrote:
As for sounds ... Dutch truly is exotic, it's quite special.
what you find so truly exotic and special about dutch ?

I think, that dutch is fun to learn, but it sound absolutley horrible, especially when spoken by people from the Randstad. The « r » they have there is like an american one, and how they talk is ugly. I think that dutch hasn't unique things at all.

I have *not* wrote this to annoy you, but because it interest me to discover why a dutchman will find his language so exotic and special.
--------------------------------------------


I may be prejudiced, but I agree with Sander that Dutch sounds beautiful. Ever heard Queen Beatrix speak it? Like any other language, it can sound ugly coming out of some people's mouths, but generally I find it beautiful.
Porthos

Compared to Spanish, or Italian, or even French? No way Jose. The latter three are what I call beautiful.
Pauline

Hallo Losseh, :)
Losseh wrote:
It can be said, that low saxon known as Plattdüütsch is a link between German and Dutch.
I think it's also called Plattdeutsch the dialects I meaned, but I suppose a different variation.

Losseh wrote:
without the Great vowel shift.

what's the great vowel shift ?


losseh wrote:
http://www.plattmaster.de/startenglish.htm

thanks for this interesting link :)
Pauline

Maybe dutch will sound beautiful to dutch people and afrikaan speakers, but I think for the speakers of the other languages, it's very ugly. Our perception must differ then, and possibly it depend of our mother tongue. It's arrogant to say that your own language is exotic and special, no ?

I thought exotic will be something from very far away and not connected. I think my language is beautiful ( sorry if this is arrogant LOL !) but it's not exotic or special, just an european language spoken in some parts of the world.

When the Queen Beatrix is speaking dutch, for sure it's not as ugly than when the randstad people talk, but it's not an elegant language. But, I didn't put that I don't like it- it's fun.
André in Zuid-Afrika

Porthos wrote:
Compared to Spanish, or Italian, or even French? No way Jose. The latter three are what I call beautiful.


Exactly, Porthos, the latter three are what you call beautiful... :wink: It's perception, not fact. No language is more beautiful or ugly than any other as such, but some will sound more beautiful to you, other languages will sound more beautiful to others. I find French beautiful, but while Spanish and Italian don't sound ugly to me, they don't sound particularly beautiful either - to me. Perception, merely perception... :wink:
Benjamin [inactive]

Josh,

When you first started this thread, I thought that you just wanted to learn any Germanic language other than English for your own interest and enjoyment. However, it now seems that you believe that your decision ought to have some pragmatic basis (as you said that you didn't think you should learn Afrikaans because you didn't really intend to go to South Africa). For this reason, I should recommend that you learn Standard German, unless you have a specific interest in either the Low Countries or Scandinavia.
Loic

I must say that to me, I find Dutch to be prettier than German. That is not to say that I dislike how German sounds like - it has its own charm and it grows on me. There are many Dutch loan words in the Malay language and it is for this reason that I am partial towards Nederlands. When I was in the army, there was an abortive attempt on my part to learn Dutch through what it is probably known as zelfstudie. I spent 6 long months practising every exercise in my Teach Yourself Dutch in 3 months book and I have forgotten almost all that I have learnt.

Since there are well-founded travel experiences of foreign tourists being always invariably addressed in English while holidaying in the country, I wonder if I would be the exception if I were to visit the Netherlands. I presume that only tourists from Western countries would be spoken to in English. I am from the east and I have passed off as an Indonesian under many circumstances. Since there is a large Indonesian community in the Netherlands, who knows?
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
Josh,

When you first started this thread, I thought that you just wanted to learn any Germanic language other than English for your own interest and enjoyment. However, it now seems that you believe that your decision ought to have some pragmatic basis (as you said that you didn't think you should learn Afrikaans because you didn't really intend to go to South Africa). For this reason, I should recommend that you learn Standard German, unless you have a specific interest in either the Low Countries or Scandinavia.


Yeah, there's always the pragmatic factor to consider when learning a foreign language. If you not going to come into contact with anyone who speaks the language, what's the point of knowing it? German is much more widely spoken than say, Norweigan, so it would make more sense to learn German. But to me, Dutch seems closer to English than German, so the relative easiness of learning Dutch might more than compensate for the practicality of learning German. I don't find either of the languages particularly atttractive, but it would still be nice to speak another Germanic language, especially if by the time I'm done with university, I will be fluent in two romance languages. But, I am interested in going to the low countries. I would also go to Germany however.

Where I live, I use Spanish every day. Other than that, any other language is not that useful. But, the opposite sex seems to find French to be very romantic, so the little I know is put to good use. :wink:

And I agree Andre, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, my mother tounge is English, and I still find Romance languages to be many times more attractive than other Germanic languages. English is very different from other Germanic languages in terms of how it sounds, at least in my opinion, so, we see other Germanic languages as being very harsh, and almost barbaric sounding, wheras Latin languages seem musical to our ears. It seems like most Germanic speakers that I come in contact with, other than English speakers, find Spanish and Italian to sound very strange and alien, while they seem to like French. I figure it's because French has the same uvular 'r', and flat endings, which might make it sound less alien to a Germanic ear.

Benjamin,
If the practical aspect of language selection was thrown at the window, I would be learning Italian and Occitan right now. But instead, my next language is going to be French, as there are simply many more French speakers worldwide. French is also very different from Spanish, as oppossed to Portuguese. So, I want a greater variety, which is why I'm going to learn French next. Again, I would want to learn Italian after that, but instead, I'm opting for another Germanic language. That way I will know two of each, and have greater variety. I am not at all interested in Slavic languages, or anything else for that matter, because they all seem so foreign to me.

And ironically, Latin languages seem less alien to me than do other Germanic languages, despite the fact that I'm a native English speaker. Other Germanic languages seem very foreign and alien to my ears, and on paper, while Romance tounges don't. Perhaps that is why I have a hard time grouping English along with continental Germanic languages in my head.
Porthos

The only Romance tounge which I think sounds strange (out of the major ones that is), is Portuguese, and maybe Romanian. Spanish and Italian are by far my favorite. They're also the easiest to pronounce, and to read. I like French quite a bit too, but not quite as much as Spanish and Italian. For me, the only good thing about Portuguese is that I can understand a lot of in written form.

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