fab
|
Strange European mapA strange Europe :
I recently had a discussion with my german co-worker about geography. He explained that when he was living in Germany (he is from Berlin) - he had the image that Paris was strait west from Berlin - at the exact same latitude.
When year later when he moved to Paris he firslt looked at a map and was suprised to see that Paris (which is already among the northermost regions in France) is in fact at the same level than the southernmost cities of Germany such as Munich or Vienna in Austria.
He told me that in Germany it seemed that the mental vision of France is to be just situated at west of Germany, and is not thought to be southern to it... As it can be shown of the distoted map above.
I found in his view a common vision that I felt that a lot of people had, especially among British, American or Scandinavian people (Frederik).
It seemed in many discussion in this site (or last year on antimoon) that many people thouht the Franco-german border to be very long and concerning all the east border of France, while it extend is limited to the Alsacian/moselle relatively area of the north-east French border.
I remember a few months when I ask on this forum what European cities were thought to be at the same level a lot of you were suprised to realize that Venice or Milan were at the same level than cities of central France such as Clermont-Ferrand - Other expected Paris to be at the same level of central Germany such as Frankfort, while it share the latitude of Munich, etc.
I always found very interesting to compare those mental maps to the reality. I didn't find the explanation of this very "northern" position of France in mental maps of many people, but it explain why it seemed difficult to many to understand that we don't feel to be northern Europeans.
|
KSa
|
I have always thought that Paris is located more or less at the same level as Cracow. It is actually more to the South.
|
Benjamin [inactive]
|
That's right — I always used to think of France as being kind of more south-west-west of England, rather than almost directly to the south of England.
|
KSa
|
| Benjamin wrote: | | That's right — I always used to think of France as being kind of more south-west-west of England, rather than almost directly to the south of England. |
I would even say (although it's hard to believe) it's partially south-east of England.
The map speaks for itself 
|
Benjamin [inactive]
|
Whoops, I meant east. I can never remember which way is left or right, or which way is east or west.
|
fab
|
| Quote: | I would even say (although it's hard to believe) it's partially south-east of England.
|
Although 98% of France is south of the UK (only parts of the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region (dark blue) would share the latitudes of the extreme south of England, thanks to the cornwall peninsula.
It is also true that Most of the UK is much more western than France. only the western atlantic front (dark blue) are as much west as UK. even the eastern coast of England (London for exemple) is quite west.
|
Uriel
|
I know my problem is that I'm used to correlating latitude with climate, and so for me, I've always pictured western Europe as being directly across from the US east coast, with "northern Europe", i.e the UK and Germany and France, lining up with Pennsylvania, NY, New England, maybe as far south as Virginia, and southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece) lining up with the South. Scandinavia and Russia would be along the lines of Canada.
Nope, turns out most of Europe is in Canadian latitudes, and even sunny Spain lies even with the frigid upper Midwest! Balmy Crete is no lower than Oklahoma. Key West, off the coast of Florida, lies at the same latitude as the southern end of the Persian Gulf!
Your temperatures are simply much milder than North American ones, no doubt due to your more extensive coastal contours.
|
Benjamin [inactive]
|
That's the other thing — I often think of New York as being on a similar latitude to London, but it's actually more level with Madrid. When I was in Indiana over the past two weeks, I kept forgetting that I was actually much further south than England.
|
Porthos
|
| Benjamin wrote: | | That's the other thing — I often think of New York as being on a similar latitude to London, but it's actually more level with Madrid. When I was in Indiana over the past two weeks, I kept forgetting that I was actually much further south than England. |
Oh yes, that's right. Tell us about your experience in America, and what you thought of it. What did you think about the "similar culture" Fab always talks about? After having visited the United States, has your opinion shifted more towards Fab's view, that both countries share a very similar Anglo culture, or has your visit only re-inforced your previous view?
|
Uriel
|
I think that one is more closely related, the differences actually stand out more -- because you unconsciously have more expectations of things being the same, and because you tend to fixate more on little differences that would escape people from more distant cultures.
|
fab
|
Hello, I'm back from holidays... I missed some of the disscussion here ! let's do it.
| Quote: | | I know my problem is that I'm used to correlating latitude with climate |
well, climate is, in an extend, linked to latitude, but it is only one factor contribuiting to define climate among the influence of marine air, direction of air masses, altitude, protection from cold due to mountains, etc...
| Quote: | | and so for me, I've always pictured western Europe as being directly across from the US east coast |
It is I think a usual view in most people's mind. It was my view at once when I was younger. I think it is due to the wish (more or less concious) to make a link between Europe and USA. maybe a tendency of thinking the US as an image of Europe.
the same way, this tendency push people to make think there is a geographic image of the countries on both continents, following the linguistic caracters: it is a common view to think that, as benjamin said above ("When I was in Indiana over the past two weeks, I kept forgetting that I was actually much further south than England"), that most of USA, at least in its northern parts, would more of less at the latitudes of England. A similar thinking push some people to think Spain to be situated at similar latitudes than Mexico or Cuba - Or at least assuming that they would share the same types of climates- which is of course not the case.
In the case of France, the fact that the main french speaking area in America is Quebec, may push some people to link "frenchness" with a northerner situation, in climate or ambiance- by association with Quebec. The funny thing in this, is that it is geographically true, although climatically completly wrong; France and Quebec lie at similar latitudes - more than this, a city like Montreal is in fact situated at the same level than Bordeaux, in the south of France ! It is quite hard to realize that Nice or Florence are situated at the level of Toronto, when we compare the climate! 43°N in America and in Europe ! :
43°North in America; Toronto
43°North in Europe; Nice
| Quote: | | with "northern Europe", i.e the UK and Germany and France, lining up with Pennsylvania, NY, New England, maybe as far south as Virginia, and southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece) lining up with the South. Scandinavia and Russia would be along the lines of Canada. |
I still find curious that you have always associated the latitudes of France with those of Germany and England. and curious that you called it "northern Europe" since it is mainly situated in southern half of the continent... ;) !
generally speaking, France share more similar latitudes with Italy than, say, with Germany.
The parts of France situated at similar latitudes than Italy represent about the two southern thirds of it (blue), on the other hand the northern third share the latitudes than southern Germany.
| Quote: | | Nope, turns out most of Europe is in Canadian latitudes |
Yes, at least for the part of Europe wich is northern than Rome. Canadian southernmost point is at same level than the eternal city!
| Quote: | | and even sunny Spain ... |
well not all of Spain is that sunny. I precicely come back from a few days in the Basque and Cantabrian coasts of Spain. It was beatiful, but very rainny, with cool temperatures around 18°C... but it still be Spain and lie at same latitudes than the mediterranean and dry central Italy...
the funny thing is that the weather change VERY quikly when we go from the rainny green coast to the very dry regions of Rioja and Aragon, situated about 50 kms from there !
| Quote: | | Your temperatures are simply much milder than North American ones, no doubt due to your more extensive coastal contours. |
yes, but that is mainly thanks to the gulf stream, and due to the fact that, due to eart rotation the main winds are from the west - which is for Europeans the atlantic wit its relatively warm waters brought by the gulft stream/ the fact that we have a lot of costal countours would be not be enough without the stream.
it speaks by itself. 
|
fab
|
| Quote: | I think that one is more closely related, the differences actually stand out more -- because you unconsciously have more expectations of things being the same, and because you tend to fixate more on little differences that would escape people from more distant cultures.
|
I agree. We saw this with Benjamin. He tented to see England and Scotland as two very different cultural entities - while for most people from outside the UK the differences are not, or hardly, noticeable.
|
Benjamin [inactive]
|
I've just looked at the map again — it surprises me to see that where I'm moving to in Scotland in three weeks time is actually on about the same latitude as southern Alaska.
| fab wrote: | | I agree. We saw this with Benjamin. He tented to see England and Scotland as two very different cultural entities - while for most people from outside the UK the differences are not, or hardly, noticeable. |
I actually don't see England and Scotland as 'two very different cultural entities'. However, it is my view that Scotland is clearly a 'country' — whilst, say, the West Midlands region of England clearly isn't. Despite being part of the UK, Scotland has its own parliament, its own money, its own legal system, its own education system, its own religious traditions, and its own history. I can think of a number of completely independent European countries which are arguably more similar to each-other in those respects than Scotland is to England. Scotland also has a somewhat different geopolitical outlook — are you aware, for example, of how France is typically perceived in Scotland?
However, the relatively superficial stuff aside, there is enough diversity within Scotland (arguably even more so than within England) before we start looking at its overall similarities and differences with England. Ultimately, people from Scotland's Central Belt (essentially Edinburgh and Glasgow) on the whole have a lot more in common with people from cities in England than with people from the isolated and predominantly Gaelic-speaking Western Isles. Heck, I'd even say that life in Edinburgh resembles life in somewhere like Copenhagen far more than it resembles life on the Isle of Lewis.
You're right though that the more similar you (collectively) are to the people that you don't want to be associated with for whatever reason, the more you will emphasise and exaggerate small differences. We can see this with Canada and the United States, with Ireland/Scotland/Wales and England, with Austria and Germany, with Portugal and Spain, and with New Zealand and Australia. And perhaps even with Europe and the United States in some ways as well.
It's essentially all about politics. A lot of Scottish people don't want to be associated with England (and the 'British' concept) for political reasons — namely because of things like Margaret Thatcher, the Iraq, nuclear weapons, and the perception that England is 'too right-wing'. Admittedly, part of my motivation for moving to Scotland is political — I'll be able to blame anything the British government does that I don't like on England, and feel better as a result.  If I'd wanted to move to a very different country, then I probably could've done — but ultimately, I don't.
|
Uriel
|
Yeah, the Gulf Stream is the main reason why western Europe enjoys such (comparatively) balmy weather -- and it's the North American constinent that deflects it your way. If that landmass did not exist, it would not flow in such a diagonal direction.
One of the projections of global climate change is that such major sea currents could be altered, which would in turn probably have a far more drastic impact on land temperatures than simply atmospheric heating. The oceans are the engine that maintains and drives world climate.
| Quote: | | In the case of France, the fact that the main french speaking area in America is Quebec, may push some people to link "frenchness" with a northerner situation, in climate or ambiance- by association with Quebec. The funny thing in this, is that it is geographically true, although climatically completly wrong; France and Quebec lie at similar latitudes - more than this, a city like Montreal is in fact situated at the same level than Bordeaux, in the south of France ! |
That IS funny. However, since Quebec is such an isolated anomaly (in so many ways) I don't think it does much to color our view of France itself. I think the reason that I tend to lump France in with Germany and the UK and the Low Countries is because although I can recognize its shape on a map, my mental picture of it is pretty hazy, and mainly includes such northern cities as Paris. I know the names Bordeaux, Cote d'Azur, Provence, etc., but I would never be able to place them on a map. I guess that would be like quizzing a Frenchman on where Delaware, Iowa, and Idaho are. Normandy I only know from history classes!
|
fab
|
| Quote: | | I've just looked at the map again — it surprises me to see that where I'm moving to in Scotland in three weeks time is actually on about the same latitude as southern Alaska. |
It actually won't surprise me so much. I think most of us would see Scotland as one of the northermost extremities of Europe. In reality while it is not completly, most of Scandinavia is more northern than Scotland (said that, the populated regions of Scandinavia are about at similar level with Scotland, the northern part is more empty)
| Quote: | | Scotland also has a somewhat different geopolitical outlook |
Maybe, but since Scotland is part of UK, and that the UK is a démocratic nation, it means that UK leaders are as much elected by Scottish than by any other British person - the UK politics inlcude of course Scotland. isn't your prime minister a Scottish ?
| Quote: | | are you aware, for example, of how France is typically perceived in Scotland? |
No, but I suppose better than in England, no ? or worse ?
| Quote: | | Ultimately, people from Scotland's Central Belt (essentially Edinburgh and Glasgow) on the whole have a lot more in common with people from cities in England than with people from the isolated and predominantly Gaelic-speaking Western Isles. Heck, I'd even say that life in Edinburgh resembles life in somewhere like Copenhagen far more than it resembles life on the Isle of Lewis. |
Yes, those regions are precisely the populated ones, wiith the two big cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
That what I think, nowadays most of Scotland is more or less of English culture, even if they won't like to recognise it: the "real" scottich scottish, which could be continued to be qualified as "celtic", is quite minoritary.
| Quote: | | You're right though that the more similar you (collectively) are to the people that you don't want to be associated with for whatever reason, the more you will emphasise and exaggerate small differences. We can see this with... even with Europe and the United States in some ways as well. |
you could have precised between UK and United States... ;)
| Quote: | A lot of Scottish people don't want to be associated with England (and the 'British' concept) for political reasons — namely because of things like Margaret Thatcher, the Iraq, nuclear weapons, and the perception that England is 'too right-wing'. Admittedly, part of my motivation for moving to Scotland is political — I'll be able to blame anything the British government does that I don't like on England, and feel better as a result. If I'd wanted to move to a very different country, then I probably could've done — but ultimately, I don't.
|
aren't the travaillist been at power during long times, especially nowadays? isn't the atcual prime minister Scottish ?
|
Benjamin [inactive]
|
| fab wrote: | | Quote: | | Scotland also has a somewhat different geopolitical outlook |
Maybe, but since Scotland is part of UK, and that the UK is a démocratic nation, it means that UK leaders are as much elected by Scottish than by any other British person - the UK politics inlcude of course Scotland. |
Yes — but ultimately, if England votes Conservative, then Scotland will probably have to put up with a Conservative government, even though very few Scottish people would have voted for it.
Equally, the vast majority of legislation passed in the UK Parliament in London does not directly affect Scotland anyway, since most of the day-to-day running of Scotland is controlled by the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh. (Which is a fascinating building, by the way — have you ever seen it?)
| fab wrote: | | isn't your prime minister a Scottish ? |
Yes. So is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It's a bizarre situation really, since most of Gordon Brown's policy's affect only England, even though he represents a Scottish constituency. Equally, the former Home Secretary is Scottish, as are both the present leader and the previous leader of the Liberal Democrats.
So yes, it's certainly true that Scottish politicians have traditionally played and continue to play a disproportionately large role in the UK government. How these people are viewed in Scotland, however, is rather more ambiguous. It's certainly ironic that Scotland elected a Nationalist government this year just a few weeks before Gordon Brown became Prime Minister — and that although opinion polls indicate that Labour have grown a lot in popularity in England since Brown took over, this has not been the case in Scotland at all.
| fab wrote: | | Quote: | | are you aware, for example, of how France is typically perceived in Scotland? |
No, but I suppose better than in England, no ? |
That's right. In Scotland, France is essentially perceived as an 'old friend' rather than an 'old enemy', because of the Auld Alliance — something which still gets talked about quite a lot in Scotland, even if no-one cares about it in France anymore.
| fab wrote: | | That what I think, nowadays most of Scotland is more or less of English culture, even if they won't like to recognise it: the "real" scottich scottish, which could be continued to be qualified as "celtic", is quite minoritary. |
It's essentially been like that for over a thousand years. The 'core' Scottish culture is essentially that of Edinburgh, Glasgow and the rest of the Lowlands, where Germanic languages have been predominant for a very long time, whilst the Highlands is historically a rather different region. But even the Lowlands doesn't really represent a single entity — Edinburgh is socially rather different from Glasgow, before we bring places like Aberdeen into the equation. And then Glasgow itself is a very divided city — it's roughly half Protestant and half Catholic — they send their children to separate schools, support separate football teams, and form rival gangs which go around attacking each-other.
| fab wrote: | | aren't the travaillist been at power during long times, especially nowadays? |
Yes. (It's actually called the Labour Party). Doesn't make a lot of difference though, since the differences in policy between Labour and the Conservatives is extremely superficial these days, at least as far as the UK Parliament is concerned. Things are a bit different in the Scottish Parliament though (and don't forget that Labour is actually no-longer in power in Scotland, for the first time in 50 years).
|
|
|
|