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Porthos

The Cafe life!

The Cafe culture of places like France, Spain, and Italy sounds so appealing to me. It would make it a lot easier to ask girls to a cup of coffee if it's so common. It would sound a lot less arbitrary. But besides that, it must be nice to sit back, and lounge around in a cafe, sipping coffee at the rate of evaporation, without your boss yelling at you.

Here in the states, we work so hard and are always on the move, so that the coffee drinking experience is just a matter of quick caffeineation, while we simulatenously finish up a report on the computer, while text messaging heinas.

But, unfortunately, I heard that the cafe culture is on decline in Latin countries, because of the rapid changes which go on due to globablization. Is this so?
Tiffany

Re: The Cafe life!

Porthos wrote:
The Cafe culture of places like France, Spain, and Italy sounds so appealing to me. It would make it a lot easier to ask girls to a cup of coffee if it's so common. It would sound a lot less arbitrary. But besides that, it must be nice to sit back, and lounge around in a cafe, sipping coffee at the rate of evaporation, without your boss yelling at you.

Here in the states, we work so hard and are always on the move, so that the coffee drinking experience is just a matter of quick caffeineation, while we simulatenously finish up a report on the computer, while text messaging heinas.

But, unfortunately, I heard that the cafe culture is on decline in Latin countries, because of the rapid changes which go on due to globablization. Is this so?


Sorry, I prefer the cafe culture here in America versus in Italy. Italians usually do not sit and drink their coffee. They stand at a counter and down their caffè. You pay extra to sit at a table in most cases, and most Italians do not want to pay for that.

I also happen to love the atmosphere of Barnes and Noble, a place to sit and read which to me is cafe culture. There is nothing like this in Italy. You have a libreria, and then a caffè. When you go into Italian bookstores, you are not supposed to even take a cursory glance at the text of the book to see if you like it. If you want read it, you have to buy it.

My husband has forgotten about this several times and just casually picked up a magazine and started to read it. His dad was like, "Manu! Cosa fai?! Devi comprarlo prima di leggere." Oh yea, and food and drink are not allowed in there.

But I have to say, Italians do "prendere un caffè" a LOT in the course of a day. However, as I described, they are usually just quick jaunts where coffee is bought and consumed in ten minutes, then you're off. Most of the tables you see are occupied by tourists, ironically.
Benjamin [inactive]

Interestingly, I'd say that 'café culture' is becoming increasingly popular in England. Literally a few years ago, it would have been unheard of to sit outside at a café on the street/square or by the river/canal, but now it's very normal.

Quote:
Here in the states, we work so hard and are always on the move, so that the coffee drinking experience is just a matter of quick caffeineation, while we simulatenously finish up a report on the computer, while text messaging heinas.

So you wouldn't, for example, go to the pub and drink a few litres of beer during your lunch hour, like in Northern Europe?
Porthos

Hum, very interesting Tiffany. Evidently, the books I read about Italy are a terrible collection of lies and cliches. Or perhaps the particular cities which you have visited are only like that, while others are more traditional?

But that is one of my favorite pastimes, and one of the few occasions when I prefer solitude, that is, lounging around w/ coffee in Barnes and Nobles.
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
So you wouldn't, for example, go to the pub and drink a few litres of beer during your lunch hour, like in Northern Europe?


No, I would say most working age people go out to lunch. But, we don't usually get more than a half hour, so we eat on the go. I mean, what if you have to go to the bathroom or something? You have to allow for that. And I would say most Americans wait until after work for a beer.
Porthos

Benjamin, have you ever seen "Austin Powers 3: Goldmember"?
Tiffany

Porthos wrote:
Hum, very interesting Tiffany. Evidently, the books I read about Italy are a terrible collection of lies and cliches. Or perhaps the particular cities which you have visited are only like that, while others are more traditional?

But that is one of my favorite pastimes, and one of the few occasions when I prefer solitude, that is, lounging around w/ coffee in Barnes and Nobles.


I have been mostly around the North. Ironically, the only cities and towns that I've found caffè with tables or an outdoor seating area are those that benefit from tourism. Try going to my husband's grandparent's isolated town of Gombitelli. The most expensive caffè I ever had was in Portofino. Effing charged me 9 euros for a latte macchiato! To add insult to injury, since we were tourists, we sat down and they of course charged extra for that. And yes, you are a tourist even if you're Italian. As long as you're doing tourist-y stuff, you're a tourist. Sitting down at a caffè is a tourist thing. People who live in a place, do not usually partake like that. That's not to say they don't enjoy just getting caffè with friends. They do, standing around the bar, talking to the barista and others. It is just not exactly like you describe.

However, there is some serious dining culture there. This seems to be what people do for their outings - eat out with friends. People sit down for a meal and don't leave for hours. It's a really nice, relaxed atmosphere - good food, good friends, no rush. They don't pack people into a restaurant like sardines either (except in the tourist-y places like Venice). People are loud, laughing, having a good time. It's a real art.

PS - I'd like to add that I've sat down at a caffè many many times. Usually when Italians are on an outing, they will.
Deborah

Re: The Cafe life!

Tiffany wrote:
I also happen to love the atmosphere of Barnes and Noble, a place to sit and read which to me is cafe culture.

I don't even drink coffee, but I do like the American cafe culture, especially in bookstores -- and especially in used book stores. There's one in my neighborhood (sort of) that provides chairs and a sofa, and you're never pressured to buy anything. To top it off, they have two beautiful, friendly cats, one of whom is an Abyssinian :love4:
fab

The café culture in France and Italy is very different. Both country have in common to make cofee time something important, but while in Italy the people drink at the desk (good word for "comptoir"?) dozens of different coffeas, in France the traditional caffea taken seated outside in the street itself (even in winter thanks to heaters) - It's then time to see the people walking or going to their activities, chating with your friends or reading the newspaper with a croissant before going to work. This seems to be a bit cliché but that's really how is the urban way of life. in a general way we like very much how we could call "terrasse culture", it is not necesserally limited to coffea, but to resteurants. In Paris almost all restaurants have seats and tables in the street or in other public places, "terrasses".
André in Zuid-Afrika

Re: The Cafe life!

Deborah wrote:
Tiffany wrote:
I also happen to love the atmosphere of Barnes and Noble, a place to sit and read which to me is cafe culture.

I don't even drink coffee, but I do like the American cafe culture, especially in bookstores -- and especially in used book stores. There's one in my neighborhood (sort of) that provides chairs and a sofa, and you're never pressured to buy anything. To top it off, they have two beautiful, friendly cats, one of whom is an Abyssinian :love4:


We have that here too, in the major cities at least. In bookshops you can browse as much as you want, and many provide chairs and couches. Some bookshops include coffee shops (a cafe in South Africa is strictly a small shop where you buy milk, bread or the daily newspaper).
fab

" Interestingly, I'd say that 'café culture' is becoming increasingly popular in England "


Teatime is not a tradition anymore ?

It seems to me that since a few years there is a phenomenon in UK to leave everything typically British tending to adopt what can be seen as more "continental", and maybe specifically more "french". Caffea culture, drinking red wine, etc. Am I wrong ?

The other day I was flying on easyjet, the magazine is made for British people since the company is from There. I was astonished to see that in every page there was an advert to incite people to buy houses in Spain or southern France, articles about wines, about a idealised vision the life of southern Europe.
Now it seem that a lot of British tend to have a low image of their own culture, and have maybe a too much idealised image of southern Europe. In southern Europe it still have lot of problems such as high unemployment, in the mediterranean the climate is far to be a tropical one as the advert seem to let think. When living in a little village of provence in winter when you are a foreigner can be very hard to live. In the mountains and plateaus some villages are under snow and quite isolted to facilities... Not speaker about the rural mentality, I can be hard to deal with locals when you're not from the place (even if the place you're from is the closest city). OK there is more sun, but it is not nessecerally enough to have a good life.

I would find it sad if England was trying to be a copy of France or other country. Because the copy will always be less interesting, and the specific things that could be found only in UK would be lost... England without tea culture, withouts pubs and beer culture won't be worth to visit anymore and would have lost its soul (I think the same could apply to all European countries)
Actually what I like in Europe is that all countries are different, and in a little distance (compared to American standards) you are able to find very different foods, products, peoples, languages, etc;

Uniformation makes me afraid.
Tiffany

fab wrote:
The café culture in France and Italy is very different. Both country have in common to make coffee time something important, but while in Italy the people drink at the desk (good word for "comptoir"?) dozens of different coffeas, in France the traditional caffea taken seated outside in the street itself (even in winter thanks to heaters) - It's then time to see the people walking or going to their activities, chating with your friends or reading the newspaper with a croissant before going to work. This seems to be a bit cliché but that's really how is the urban way of life. in a general way we like very much how we could call "terrasse culture", it is not necesserally limited to coffea, but to restaurants. In Paris almost all restaurants have seats and tables in the street or in other public places, "terrasses".


I think you are looking for the word "counter", not desk, Fab. Also "terrace".

I want to say that in many instances, you will find Italians lounging around out on the terrace - but it is not a coffee shop, rather a restaurant, where you can get coffee, but also food like brioche or a pastry for breakfast or a panino for lunch. The caffè that I am talking of is strictly that - a place that sells only coffee. Some restaurants also sell caffè, but if you only buy coffee, not food, you usually stand. If you buy food, you usually do sit.

Careful that not all pasticceria (places the sell pastries) have the option to sit. Usually only full-fledged restuarants with waiters have that option. That's pretty much why you pay extra to sit - it is assumed you will use waiters and such so the surcharge is for service and use of the table itself (you also automatically get served "snacks" like peanuts when you sit). When I figured this out, the thought crossed my mind that Italians do indeed have to tip - but it's not an optional gratuity!
Tiffany

Re: The Cafe life!

fab wrote:
" Interestingly, I'd say that 'café culture' is becoming increasingly popular in England "


Teatime is not a tradition anymore ?

It seems to me that since a few years there is a phenomenon in UK to leave everything typically British tending to adopt what can be seen as more "continental", and maybe specifically more "french". Caffea culture, drinking red wine, etc. Am I wrong ?

The other day I was flying on easyjet, the magazine is made for British people since the company is from There. I was astonished to see that in every page there was an advert to incite people to buy houses in Spain or southern France, articles about wines, about a idealised vision the life of southern Europe.
Now it seem that a lot of British tend to have a low image of their own culture, and have maybe a too much idealised image of southern Europe. In southern Europe it still have lot of problems such as high unemployment, in the mediterranean the climate is far to be a tropical one as the advert seem to let think. When living in a little village of provence in winter when you are a foreigner can be very hard to live. In the mountains and plateaus some villages are under snow and quite isolted to facilities... Not speaker about the rural mentality, I can be hard to deal with locals when you're not from the place (even if the place you're from is the closest city). OK there is more sun, but it is not nessecerally enough to have a good life.

I would find it sad if England was trying to be a copy of France or other country. Because the copy will always be less interesting, and the specific things that could be found only in UK would be lost... England without tea culture, withouts pubs and beer culture won't be worth to visit anymore and would have lost its soul (I think the same could apply to all European countries)
Actually what I like in Europe is that all countries are different, and in a little distance (compared to American standards) you are able to find very different foods, products, peoples, languages, etc;

Uniformation makes me afraid.


This really resonated with me. I actually feel many Americans have a low opinion of their own country too. How else do you explain the general notion most Americans have that people are more sophisticated in Europe? Many Americans have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to Europe. It does not help that the American media perpetuates these stereotypes. Do you know how many books Barnes and Noble has on the myriad wonders of Tuscany, the excitement and romance of Paris, the lush fields of Ireland, the sophistication of London... etc.

Yes, we have negative stereotypes too, but sometimes I really feel the positive ones outweigh the negatives for Europe and Europeans.
fab

" Many Americans have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to Europe "

That's interesting because we tend to think that it is exaclty the inverse.

In Europe we often think that we are seen as "undersdevelopped", or "unmodern/untechnological" countries to American eyes. We still have a strong complex.

This is maybe because until quite recent times Europe had an important lack of technical advance (after WW2 it was very poor). And since this time we life under the economic and cultural domination of this country.

It is especially true for France which have been before the "30 glorieuse" in its majority a very rural country made of isolated littles villages without water and comfort.
Since 1945, the USA were seen as the image of the new modernity (a bit how is seen the US today in Eastern Europe), bringing with it its fashions, movies, musics, modes, words... and companies.

We continue today to have difficulties to invent our own modernity without having the temptation to copy the US - To many young people it is as if everything very french was "uncool", and everything from the US "cool". Maybe it is changing now, maybe due to the political activities, that the image of the American dream has lost very much of its capacity to make us dreaming.
Elaine

Benjamin wrote:
So you wouldn't, for example, go to the pub and drink a few litres of beer during your lunch hour, like in Northern Europe?


For real? I wouldn't be able to sober up in the 30 minutes or less that I take for lunch. Plus, that kind of behavior could get me fired w/o notice.

Tiffany wrote:
I actually feel many Americans have a low opinion of their own country too. How else do you explain the general notion most Americans have that people are more sophisticated in Europe? Many Americans have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to Europe.


Do you really think so? I know so many people who wouldn't ever dream of taking a trip outside of the good ol' US of A because they think every place else is "substandard" or lacks the modern amenities, including Europe. Also, I have a feeling that people who tend to frequent bookstores and just might pick up a book on Tuscany or Provence are people who are more intellectually evolved than the general population.
Joanne

Benjamin wrote:

So you wouldn't, for example, go to the pub and drink a few litres of beer during your lunch hour, like in Northern Europe?

What? No! Never! What a notion, silly boy!






:confused2: What have you seen, and how much to keep you quiet? :wink:
Tiffany

Elaine wrote:
Do you really think so? I know so many people who wouldn't ever dream of taking a trip outside of the good ol' US of A because they think every place else is "substandard" or lacks the modern amenities, including Europe. Also, I have a feeling that people who tend to frequent bookstores and just might pick up a book on Tuscany or Provence are people who are more intellectually evolved than the general population.


I know some people like that too, who have never been outside the US, although I've never heard anyone call Europe substandard, though I guess you have.

If people then who hold these beliefs, that Europe is more sophisticated, are "more intellectually evolved" does that make this stereotype more acceptable? This is what I find, that many people think this stereotype is acceptable, even true. And is it any better than those who think the world outside of America is substandard? Or have you never encountered this stereotype?
Benjamin [inactive]

fab wrote:
Teatime is not a tradition anymore ?

Teatime? LOL! :D Essentially, the only people who have afternoon tea here are tourists (analogous to Tiffany's comments about outside cafés in Italy) and old ladies who live in the really la-di-da and quaint old cathedral cities like Canterbury. I went to stay with my friends in France a few weeks ago -- I thought it was really silly that they asked me whether I had teatime at 16:00 every day. The last time I had anything remotely resemling 'afternoon tea' was at a rather elaborate establishment in Germany, owned by an Indian cricket fan -- the place was still full of women aged 70+ though.

Quote:
It seems to me that since a few years there is a phenomenon in UK to leave everything typically British tending to adopt what can be seen as more "continental", and maybe specifically more "french". Caffea culture, drinking red wine, etc. Am I wrong ?

Yes, that's right. Except that the most popular food here is actually curry (Indian).

Quote:
The other day I was flying on easyjet, the magazine is made for British people since the company is from There. I was astonished to see that in every page there was an advert to incite people to buy houses in Spain or southern France, articles about wines, about a idealised vision the life of southern Europe.

Every week, or sometimes even every day, there are television programmes about buying houses in Spain or France, and sometimes also Italy, Portugal and Greece. And increasingly, places like Croatia and Bulgaria are becoming more popular, presumably because it is thought that they will join the European Union soon. I often seen statistics in the news which suggest that about 50% of British people have seriously considered leaving the UK permenantly.

Quote:
Now it seem that a lot of British tend to have a low image of their own culture,

Football, binge-drinking, Soviet Bloc style architecture all over most cities... it's not exactly very interesting, is it?

Quote:
I would find it sad if England was trying to be a copy of France or other country.

I personally don't care.

Quote:
Because the copy will always be less interesting, and the specific things that could be found only in UK would be lost... England without tea culture, withouts pubs and beer culture won't be worth to visit anymore and would have lost its soul

I'd always been under the impression that you didn't think that England was worth visiting anyway.

I've never tried beer and I don't want to either. However, I do drink red wine on a fairly regular basis. On the whole, most people do still drink beer, although it's not just British beer that is popular -- my dad drinks Belgian beer in traditional Belgian beer glasses most days.

Traditional pubs are in decline, as they have increasingly been turning into restaurants (often quite stylish ones). Smoking was banned in pubs and restaurants in Scotland last year, so people sit outside more up there than in England. However, it's going to be banned in England next year as well, so I imagine that the same will happen. I've been told that pubs have declined significantly in Ireland as well over the past few years for the same reasons.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
Benjamin, have you ever seen "Austin Powers 3: Goldmember"?

No, why?
fab

" I'd always been under the impression that you didn't think that England was worth visiting anyway. "

No, I think it seems to be your own opinion, and you may projected it on other's opinions. Actually I find London to be a very interseting place, because you find there things you don't find in Paris or any place in France - a vibrant mix of new and old in the inside city, a more dynamic city in terms of modern architecture, a plce where new musics born quikcly in inovating ways, etc.

Enven if I love my city, I would say that Paris and maybe France in general is more "fixed", we call "villes-musée", very nice cities where it is good to walk but a bit outside of the center of today's society. I personally know a lot of people who went to England for these reasons, and also because it is much easier to find a job. (but without job security)

I think both countries have their good and bad points, but I think England should stay England and France should stay France. It would be sad that England would be a bad caricature of an idealised French way of life and that France change itself of a bad copy of the US (since it is now the model for most things).

I have nothing against northern European cultures, this week end I'm going to Amsterdam... ;) walking the canals, beer, red brick Dutch architecture, Vangogh museums...
Porthos

As for this whole "Britain copying southern Europe" thing, I think we should consider a few key points. In case you have forgotten, the weather in England is absolutely horrifying. It's overcast the majority of the time, which is in itself, depressing, on a biological level. Studies show that in areas which experience frequent rain and overcast, people are more prone to be chronically depressed, and suicide rates are higher. So, it is no wonder that Britons idealize the mediterranean climate, and wish to escape there on vacation, or even retire there. Then you have the way of life in southern Europe, which is very different from the hustle and go mentality in England. I'm sure that is appealing for many.

As for Britain not being so proud of her culture, I can empathize. The food is known as one of the world's worst. Art, homes, and architecture there look dreary to me. I think it is all related to the weather. That awful weather casts a shadow over all of life in England. It is reflected by the temperment of the people and their culture, I feel.

Tiffany and Joanne,

You have both heard different stereotypes with regard to Americans and Europeans. It all boils down to this. More intellectually evolved, and usually liberal oriented Americans have a high opinion of most Europeans, and find them to be on average, more sophisticated than most Americans. The rest of America, are the church going, flag waving, America is the only place on earth, conservative oriented people, who have a very low opinion of Europe, and often refer to Europeans as "Eurotrash". I've seen both. Personally, I feel that the average European is more knowledgeable about the world, and generally more sophisticated. They tend to know a lot more about America than we do about Europe. They often speak multiple languages, and they can actually name and find many countries on the globe, whereas a suprising number of Americans are not aware of the fact that Britain is an island!

A lot of the liberal oriented, intellectual elitists are of the opinion that Europeans are less prejudicial and more modern. That, however, is not neccessarily true. They tend to be just as prejudice against minority ethnic groups as Americans are. The ones I've talked to criticize our black people here, and make fun of their big clothes, and use words like "nigger". Or they describe their disdain for the Arab and Turk immigrants in their home countries. The one people who seem to view talking about minority races as taboo are the French. They have this almost superficial outlook about racial diversity, where they hypocritically, for appearance's sake, pretend to be color blind, when really, they are no more color blind than anybody else.

A lot of Europeans have debated with on the internet, and talked to in person, seem to feel that in many ways, America is backward or barbaric. The fact that people are allowed to carry firearms here, or that we have the death penalty is seen as very backward. Or our strict laws on alcohol use for minors are mocked as "puritarian" and old fashioned. They often see us through the eyes of a cliche influenced mindset, where America is still much like the Wild West.

I also have strong opinions of my own country. I divide America on cultural/political grounds. Red America, is politically conservative, and backward to me. I see it as hick, WASP land, where the people have ridiculous accents and sound ignorant. Us Yankees make jokes about the rural people of the deep south as being inbred. They're typically the ones who dismiss people who dare to question the government or president as "commies", "pinkos", "traitors", etc. I personally feel at home in the blue states, not just because of political reasons, but mainly because of cultural reasons. I feel like places like the West coast and the Northeast are more modern and sophisticated. I like the urban enviroments, and everthing about these regions. Sure, we're usually a bit more rude, fast paced, and internationalist, cosmopolitan, and maybe less religious, but I like it like that. So, I feel the most comfortable on the west coast and northeast, in places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, etc. I also favor my home state in California, because I have the opportunity to remain in contact with a lot of Hispanic culture, which still defines me as a person. I feel like I am the product of the blending of two cultures, two peoples, and California embodies that for me. I'm Anglo, but at my core, I'm also Hispanic, and I love being able to travel back and forth between both worlds so to speak.
Tiffany

I think you meant Elaine, Porthos.

Porthos wrote:
Personally, I feel that the average European is more knowledgeable about the world, and generally more sophisticated.


Elaine, see what I mean^
Joanne

Tiffany wrote:
I think you meant Elaine, Porthos.

Ah, okay. Porthos I was wondering why you were talking to me when I only wrote one post here, which was only tangentially related to this thread :?
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
As for Britain not being so proud of her culture, I can empathize. The food is known as one of the world's worst. Art, homes, and architecture there look dreary to me. I think it is all related to the weather. That awful weather casts a shadow over all of life in England. It is reflected by the temperment of the people and their culture, I feel.

That's probably true. Essentially, one could say that England is even more dreary than Poland. :) And that's without mentioning Scotland and Wales... ;) Today I was walking to school in the fog (I couldn't see more than perhaps about 25m) with the Polish girl I'm hosting, and she said that it was actually sunny in Poland at the moment.
Porthos

Yeah, I heard the weather was even worse in Wales, because of the Atlantic winds further west. Those poor Welsh. They sure get the short end of the stick in everything. :(
Tiffany

I think England must have its own charm and natural beauty to appeal to a nature buff like my husband. He's taken many trips to England and has fond memories of the beautiful landscapes. I think England is definitely worth a visit, and my husband (the pickiest man in the world about location) has even considered living there.
greg in noord-frankrijk

fab wrote:
I have nothing against northern European cultures, this week end I'm going to Amsterdam... ;) walking the canals, beer, red brick Dutch architecture, Vangogh museums...

Profites-en bien : c'est une ville fabuleuse !



Porthos wrote:
As for this whole "Britain copying southern Europe" thing, I think we should consider a few key points. In case you have forgotten, the weather in England is absolutely horrifying.

The weather isn't that better in Normandy or Brittany. Bretons and Normans have stuck to their own standards, though, and local tourism fares pretty well there.



Porthos wrote:
Art, homes, and architecture there look dreary to me. I think it is all related to the weather. That awful weather casts a shadow over all of life in England.

Although not your typical England-lover, I have to say English architecture is quite interesting (especially medieval castles and churches etc) — not to mention furniture and decoration. English gardens are renowned and that's only justice because traditional English style is quite inspired. OK, the weather *IS* a problem — but it did not stop English people from practicing outdoor sports and activities on a large scale.



Porthos wrote:
The one people who seem to view talking about minority races as taboo are the French. They have this almost superficial outlook about racial diversity, where they hypocritically, for appearance's sake, pretend to be color blind, when really, they are no more color blind than anybody else.

Of course they aren't ! Talking about racism is not taboo in France. It's just that the notion of "race" 1/ is not shared by all French people (whatever their "races") — 2/ does not mean the ones refusing "racialism" are self-righteous or stupid to the point of thinking Human skin has no colours...
I think the most superficial outlook on "race"-related topics is precisely to equate "race" with skin colour.
Porthos

Greg,
It's such a delight seeing you speak in English. We can communicate on a much higher level, rather than me having to try my best to interpret your French.
Benjamin [inactive]

If anyone is ever thinking about taking a group of ten Polish teenagers on a day-trip to London... don't. I went to London with them for the day yesterday, and I won't feel the need to go back for perhaps another three years.

They're in England for about five days, and although they're definitely enjoying it, they do seem somewhat disappointed. They said that photographs of England published in Poland always make it look like a perfect place where everything is wonderful. But they said that they actually found that London was just like Warsaw — a few very nice buildings in small areas (e.g. the Houses of Parliament and Westminster Abbey), but then 'dirty streets' very near by.

What's funny though is that I'd never been to Westminster Abbey, or to Whitehall, or to Piccadilly Circus, or to Trafalgar Square, or to the National Gallery until yesterday. I'd actually say that I probably know Paris and Brussels better than I know London.
fab

I just came back from Amsterdam... It is definitly one of favorite place in northern Europe. And so different from Paris in almost all ways.

As for the UK, I should admit I'm maybe not a fan of England (especially the big northern cities that I disliked), I actually liked a lot of the little towns (even if I'd like to return to see London with more mature eyes).
I liked a lot Scotland and Wales. I would say that, despite the quite depressing climate those regions (nations?), have a very strong character and charm. The same tipical charm than in Britanny or Galicia.

The climate is maybe something important to make a place very envoying to live, but it is not the only point. Paris's climate is maybe better than British's one, but it still an oceanic one, with very cloudy winters. Despite this it is a nice place.

In the Po valley, in Italy, the winters are very depressing and the architecture outside the city centers is often quite ugly.
In France it is the same, the turists have the image of the historic and charmfull city center, while a lot of people live in sad/or poor suburbs.
Porthos

Fab, in what ways was Amsterdam so very different from Paris?

And you list regions like Brittany, Galicia, and Scotland and Wales as having a certain charm. Is this because of the Celitc factor?
Benjamin [inactive]

fab wrote:
As for the UK, I should admit I'm maybe not a fan of England (especially the big northern cities that I disliked)

The 'big northern cities' (e.g. Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Nottingham etc.) are NOT holiday places. For the most part, they are relatively new (by European standards) industrial cities where people often from a very wide range of backgrounds live and work. But as far as most people are concerned, there isn't really very much of great historical interest in most of them. There are also a lot of rather ugly buildings (essentially Soviet Bloc style) because the centres were often bombed during World War II.

Ultimately, I suppose that one's overall impression of England (there is no one 'England' as such; there are several) will depend on whether one bases one's impression of the place primarily on the large cities — which is where most people live — or on the smaller historical cities (e.g. Canterbury), towns and villages — where relatively few people live but are much nicer places to visit.

This is similar to when people attempt to make generalisations about 'English people' (or whatever) in general. Should one base one's perceptions primarily on working class people (the majority of the population) or on middle class people (like me)? The lifestyle and views are often very different.

Quote:
I liked a lot Scotland and Wales. I would say that, despite the quite depressing climate those regions (nations?),

Countries.
fab

What is different beetween Paris and Amsterdam... ?

Too many things...

- The size : Paris is much bigger and crowded than Amsterdam. Paris urban area is about 10 million people, the density of population in the inner city is very high.
In Amsterdam, it seems much more "provincial".

- The urban organisation: the average building is made of 2 levels, rarely more than 3. In Paris the average is around 7 levels for each building. In Amsterdam most buildings are houses, lined-houses.
In Paris the rich disctricts generally are in the center, the popular ones at the exterior, in Amsterdam it is the inverse. The suburbs of Amsterdam are very clean and green, very peacefull and residential.

- The architecture (I speak mainly about the city center) :
In Amsterdam it is tipically a style of brick houses, with big windows with white borders, very similar to what you can find in England. In Paris most buildings are either in hone or in white/beige coating. The kind of roofs is also very different.
Amsterdam architecture reminded me very much London and English architecture in General (see photos).

- The transports : In Amsterdam bicycles are everywhere and everybody use mainly it, the second transportation is tramway. Parisians use scooters, metro, feet and cars.
The nose : Paris is much more noisy than Amsterdam, which seems very quiet and peacefull, especially around the canals.

- The language. The language canno't be more different.

- The foods : foreign favorite food in Amsterdam seems to be indonesian and indian. Those are very unusual in Paris.
The local foods are very different : The "pub culture" is very spread, and people almost drink mostly beer everywhere (it is not only a northern Europe stereotype as I was thinking). Food is heavy (potato, sausages... but also soups and fishs - not much different from the English food I found). The breakfasts are similar to the English style. The whole ambiance is very north European.

- The climate : although Paris climate is not excellent, the one in Amsterdam seems to be quite much cooler than in Paris, and quite foogy. But it does fit good with the atmosphere of the city.

- etc.


The urban ambiance is very northern European, it reminded me a lot of England.







Benjamin [inactive]

Hmmm, I've never actually been to the Netherlands. I'd always imagined that it would be very similar to Germany, but from Fab's photographs, it looks as though it might actually be a bit more like England — especially with the red bricks and sash-windows. (Of course, it is very difficult to make generalisations about entire countries — Cornwall and Brittany are quite similar, for example).

Come to think of it, I'd never really been to anywhere outside the British Isles where Germanic languages are spoken until I went to Germany for three weeks this summer, even though I'd been to most Southern European countries plus Belgium (but only Brussels, which is mainly French-speaking — a fantastic but also rather strange place, actually) and Poland.

Quote:
foreign favorite food in Amsterdam seems to be ... indian.

LOL — well that's just like in England as well.
fab

" And you list regions like Brittany, Galicia, and Scotland and Wales as having a certain charm. Is this because of the Celitc factor? "



Mmm, celtic flavour ? I don't really like the way the word "celtic" is used today, because it has only a little link with the culture of Celts.
"Celtic countries" today are considered to have common points, but I tend to think that these common points are more linked to the fact that the regions where celtic languages have survived longer are the "extreme west of Europe"; and most of their common points are due to their geographical position, climate and their very "atlantic-linked" way of life linked with (which is not specifically "celtic" in the original meaning). So if the "celtic" flavour in your mind is the oceanic climates, the wild and rocky coasts, the misty atmopheres, the specific slates-covered roofs or the bagpipe style music, yes, I can say that I like very much this "celtic" ambiance. even if it would be maybe better to call it "Atlantic-European" or "extreme west-European" flavour (we should don't forget that the original celts were not coming from those regions but from central Europe).
fab

" Hmmm, I've never actually been to the Netherlands. I'd always imagined that it would be very similar to Germany "


Actually, I found it very similar to England. And also very similar to a lot of places in North America (not only new England but also the Canadian cities and the older centers of the American cities)
Most of the time it is impossible to know if you are in England of Netherlands I though. Also everbody speak english fluently.
I don't know enough Germany to make a comparision, I know only Berlin. In a lot of ways Berlin was quite similar to English cities, and also Dutch ones.

Yesterday I stopped at Brussels... It is a very interesting city, and quite paradoxal, because it is situated in the Flemish part of Belgium, but its population is mainly French-speaking, while it is the capital of a country with a Flemish majority. The urban ambiance and architecture of Brussels seems to be mainly Flemish with French influences in some districts.

Actually I think Brussels is a good choice for the European capital because it seems to be really THE European city where latin and Germanic countries meet together. Although I tend to find that in a lot of points the city is very north European.
fab

" The 'big northern cities' (e.g. Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Nottingham etc.) are NOT holiday places "


Yes, of course I know this. But a lot of people come there for linguistic exchange. Almost all teenagers in France have known the "sejours linguistiques".

Personally, when teenager I have been living in families in Chester, Statford, Bath, Irvine (scotland). From there we visited London, Manchester, Liverpool, Edingurgh among other.
Benjamin [inactive]

fab wrote:
Most of the time it is impossible to know if you are in England or Netherlands I thought.

Interesting. It had never really occurred to me before that it would be so similar.

Quote:
Also everbody speak english fluently.

I personally would still insist on learning some more Dutch before I went though. I know some words, and I can understand quite a bit [at least written down], but I can't exactly speak it. Did you?

Quote:
I don't know enough Germany to make a comparision, I know only Berlin. In a lot of ways Berlin was quite similar to English cities, and also Dutch ones.

I haven't been to Berlin. When I was in Germany, I was mainly in Baden-Würtemberg and Bayern (Bavaria). I thought that it looked a bit like a fairytale land, or something from a Christmas card — presumably because most 'English' fairy stories and Christmas traditions are actually borrowed/copied/taken from Germany. In some ways, one could say that it looked a bit like an idealised England.

I also know Frankfurt am Main, which was a bit like Birmingham but with a large river, a reconstructed old square and a lot of skyscrapers. Basically like another large generic Northern European city.

Quote:
From there we visited London, Manchester, Liverpool, Edingurgh among other.

Funny, I've never actually been to Manchester or Liverpool (or Leeds). Actually, there are loads of places in England that I haven't bothered to visit — I've never been to Canterbury either (I have a somewhat idealised image of what it might be like, lol).
fab

Benjamin wrote:

I personally would still insist on learning some more Dutch before I went though. I know some words, and I can understand quite a bit [at least written down], but I can't exactly speak it. Did you?


No, I don't speak or understand Dutch at all. I think trying to speak the language is a good thing, but Dutch people seem to be Anglophiles, as soon as people see you're a foreigner, they speak to you in English, whatever your language is.

Knowing English helps a lot to understand Dutch, when reading writings or listening to people it is quite easy to catch common words and expressions. Some that I saw there :

- Hallo (hello)
- morgen (tommorow, but similar to morning)
- Dank U (thank you, very similar pronounciation)
- Ja (yes, pronounced Ya, very similar to "Yeah")
- Waar (where)
- open (open)
- uit (exit, similar to "out")
- boot (boat)
- straat (street)
- bed (bed)
- goed (good)
- water (water)
- melk (milk)
- eten (eat)
- drinken (drink)
- week (week)

etc.

I don't know how similar they are also to German. But for what I saw Dutch seemed to be a bit between German and English.



I also know Frankfurt am Main, which was a bit like Birmingham but with a large river, a reconstructed old square and a lot of skyscrapers. Basically like another large generic Northern European city.

Quote:
From there we visited London, Manchester, Liverpool, Edingurgh among other.

Funny, I've never actually been to Manchester or Liverpool (or Leeds). Actually, there are loads of places in England that I haven't bothered to visit — I've never been to Canterbury either (I have a somewhat idealised image of what it might be like, lol).[/quote]


Quote:
I thought that it looked a bit like a fairytale land, or something from a Christmas card — presumably because most 'English' fairy stories and Christmas traditions are actually borrowed/copied/taken from Germany.


Yes, it is true that most fairy tails imaginary are German, especially southern German. Disney castels also are inspired upon Bavarian romantic castles of the 19th century.

I tend to have a quite different image of Northern and southern Germany. I tend to think that Northern Germany has more similarities with Netherlands, England, and also Denmark; while southern Germany is more "central European", Alpine-like (Austria, Switzerland, maybe even Hungary and Czek republic.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
I don't know how similar they are also to German. But for what I saw Dutch seemed to be a bit between German and English.

Here are the German translations of those words to show you. Please note that in Dutch, the G is pronounced a bit like the Spanish J, and the N is not pronounced on the ends of words. Also, the W is pronounced like an English/French V, as in German.

English — Dutch — German (just like on the map, lol)

hello — hallo — hallo
morning/tomorrow — morgen — Morgen
thank you — dank U — danke
yes — ja — ja
where — waar — wo
open — open — öffnen
out — uit — aus (the Dutch pronunciation is fairly similar to the English)
boat — boot — Boot
street — straat — Straße
bed — bed — Bett
good — goed — gut
water — water — Wasser
milk — melk — Milch
eat — eten — essen
drink — drinken — trinken
week — week — Woche

You might notice some patterns of which consonants tend to change between English/Dutch and German. This is called the High German Consonant Shift.
Porthos

Benjamin,
Do you know if the Anglo-Saxons experienced the high consonant shift before their settlement in Britain, or is this something that they picked up in later centuries?
Pauline

Hello

the reason I've left antimoon, was because brennus deleted a very interesting thread which i'd created last week for discuss exactly this : Dutch : the link between English and German ?

He deleted it and told that he consider it not a good topic. But i think it's very interesting, and I absolutely agree with you, that ducth is between those languages. i can speak all three, but they aren't my mother tongue, so I think i can see it objectively. I'm not a linguist, so probably they would tell you can't view it this way, but when you look at the langauges and speak them, for sure Dutch is the link !!

We can create a new thread for this !! I will put it on the languages list, and I hope you will continue to discuss it :)
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
Benjamin,
Do you know if the Anglo-Saxons experienced the high consonant shift before their settlement in Britain, or is this something that they picked up in later centuries?

It was actually the High Germans (i.e. people from what we roughly know today as Central and Southern Germany and Austria) who experienced the High German Consonant Shift, not the Anglo-Saxons. It happened over an extended period of time in various stages, although I'm not sure exactly when. English, Scots and Frisian have not experienced the shift, and I understand that Dutch and Low Saxon have only experienced it to a very limited extent.

(Correct me if I'm wrong anyone).
Pauline

Hi Benjamin,

I've created the new thread about the three languages : is Dutch between German / English ? You can find it in the languages section. I hope that you will visit it :)

Although I can speak very well Dutch, acceptable german and a little English, I have absolutely no idea about the linguistics, for exemple Consonant Shift. I would be very interested to learn about it !!! It would be nice to understand the similarities / changes I''ve noticed because for sure there are some patterns.

I hope that we can have a great discussion, and this topic interested Aquatar and Icke also I think.
Porthos

Pauline, why do I get the idea you're going to marry a Germanic man? :lol: Did Dutch allow for an easy learning experience in English?

I still think Dutch is much closer to German than it is to English, although it is similar to English in many ways. But one must remember that only the so-called "core" vocabulary of English is similar to Dutch and German. But the majority of our vocabulary is actually of Latinate origin. So, the basic words like colors, numbers, fairwell and hellos, fire, water, wind, and other elements, etc, are very similar and easily recognizable for an English speaker. But the English pronounciation and spelling of many of even these basic words
Pauline

Porthos wrote:
Pauline, why do I get the idea you're going to marry a Germanic man? :lol:
it's possible !!

Quote:
Did Dutch allow for an easy learning experience in English?
for sure it help me - I learn English since some months, and I know my level is elementary, but it's great that so many things are parallel in Dutch. for exemple, on antimoon in a converstaion with Aquatar, I noticed that this construction is exactly the same :

would = zou / had = had

I would buy a horse if I had sufficient money
Ik zou een paard kopen als ik genoeg geld had.

Of course the word order you must adjust it, and the words you must know, but the grammatic construction is *identical*. This is completely another construction in french, and also German, so for me to learn English after Dutch and German will be the half so difficult (I anticipate )

Why we not continue this on the new thread ?It's created especially for it :flower:

but, I must sleep now, so bye.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
But the majority of our vocabulary is actually of Latinate origin.

It is true that most of the words in the dictionary may in fact be of Greco-Latinate origin. But if you think about it, I'm sure that you will find that the vast majority of the words we use every day are of Germanic origin.

^ Only about 4-7 of the words in the above paragraph are not Germanic (I'm not entirely sure for some of them).

However, many of the Greco-Latinate English words are more formal synonyms for Germanic English words. Since so many of these are also found in French, often with the same spelling, it is often easy for English speakers to recognise a lot of French words on paper — often more so than for German and possibly even also than for Dutch. But spoken language is a very different story.
Porthos

Yes, that is what I mean. I recognize a lot more words in French than I do in other W. Germanic languages. My comprehension level is also much greater.

And I don't think the vast majority of words we use are Germanic. I hate the fact that I can't think of examples when they are needed most, but a lot of even very basic words we use are of French origin. I use hundreds upon hundreds of Latin words on a daily basis. The Germanic words which we use, are so very different from their Dutch or German cognates that they are not even recognizeable to a large degree. I know knowledge of a Romance language unfarily allows a native English speaker to understand most Romance languages on a higher level than Germanic ones, but even so. I have never studies Portuguese, and I have had very little exposure to it, and yet I could understand an entire thread of Portuguese on this site! I could never dream of doing so for Dutch or German, let alone North Germanic langauges.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos:

bold = Germanic words
underlined = Greco-Latinate words found in German and/or Dutch
italics = Greco-Latinate words not found in either German or Dutch

« And I don't think the vast majority of words we use are Germanic. I hate the fact that I can't think of examples when they are needed most, but a lot of even very basic words we use are of French origin. I use hundreds upon hundreds of Latin words on a daily basis. The Germanic words which we use, are so very different from their Dutch or German cognates that they are not even recognizeable to a large degree. I know knowledge of a Romance language unfarily allows a native English speaker to understand most Romance languages on a higher level than Germanic ones, but even so. I have never studied Portuguese, and I have had very little exposure to it, and yet I could understand an entire thread of Portuguese on this site! I could never dream of doing so for Dutch or German, let alone North Germanic langauges. »

The above may not be 100% accurate, but essentially:

121 Germanic words
17 Greco-Latinate words found in German and/or Dutch
15 Greco-Latinate words not found in German or Dutch

And this is quite a technical subject.
Benjamin [inactive]

Just been looking at some more pictures of Amsterdam... some of the pictures surprise me, actually, because I thought that it would look more like Brussels.

This is definitely a very 'Englishy' street, complete with an Indian restaurant:


And this is like how I imagine the cities in New England, for some reason:


Unfortunately, my attempts to persuade my parents that I should stop off in Amsterdam 'on the way' to Oberwesel in Germany next week have been unsuccessful.
fab

"And I don't think the vast majority of words we use are Germanic."

it seems that in most cases the frequency of Germanic words in English is beetween 70 an 80%. The others are not necessary "pure" latin words, but often words of Greek origins. As Benjamin rightly noticed, the romance word of English are not a speciality of English, but the other germanic languages also use some latin (and greek) words.



" a lot of even very basic words we use are of French origin. "

A lot surely, but it still is a minority.




" I use hundreds upon hundreds of Latin words on a daily basis. "

Yes, but you also use thousands of Germanic words in the same time.




" The Germanic words which we use, are so very different from their Dutch or German cognates "

This is not what I have noticed in Netherlands.




" I have never studies Portuguese, and I have had very little exposure to it, and yet I could understand an entire thread of Portuguese on this site!"

Actually, don't you think that in this case it is not the fact of speaking English that make easy to understand Portuguese, but the fact of speaking Spanish, the closest language to Portuguese among the main romance languages.



" I could never dream of doing so for Dutch or German, let alone North Germanic langauges. "

Actually, my knowledge of English helped me a lot to understand some Dutch.






Benjamin,

It is funny, because I was firtly thinking that the photos you showed were in England...


The English architecture has been a big influence of the north American architecture :











Not necessary in New england only



















Wich have have evolueted on its own path
Benjamin [inactive]

Fab — have you ever noticed that a lot of native English speakers seem to 'want' to believe that regular English is mostly Latin? I have. Actually, I used to think that as well, until I actually thought about the words that I really use every day and realised that most of it is Germanic.

Interesting photographs of buildings in North America. With the exception of the very last photo, I'd probably have believed you if you'd said that they were in England or the Netherlands (except that the buildings in some of them are maybe a bit 'big', lol).
fab

On another hand, some views in English big cities could pass quite easily from having been taken in north America or Australia.
It often lack the strait design of American blocks and huge adverts.

















two "Birghmingams", but which is the English and the American ?








"Interesting photographs of buildings in North America. With the exception of the very last photo, I'd probably have believed you if you'd said that they were in England or the Netherlands"

The firts one are in Boston, a few others are in Montreal (which has been very heavily influenced by british architesture), and some of the lasts are in California.


"except that the buildings in some of them are maybe a bit 'big', lol"

Yes :wink: in north America everything is bigger ! cars, houses, highways, food portions, coke bottles, and of course the land itself !
fab

" have you ever noticed that a lot of native English speakers seem to 'want' to believe that regular English is mostly Latin "


Yes, in antimoon I realised that. My opinion is that there is maybe a feeling of superiority among the "Anglo world" towards the other Germanic countries (maybe due to WWI and II), and so it seems that it is considered "shamefull" by some people to speak a germanic language ... :(
Porthos

Benjamin, thank you for taking the time to do that. Your effort is appreciated.

But, this is why I say I find Latin languages to be much easier to comprehend.

As you all know, there are a core group of words which we use more than any other words. Examples - I, it, they, we, do, have, etc.

All of these words in English are of Germanic origin. Yet, unlike the Romance languages, these "core vocabulary" words are not neccessarily very similar looking or sounding between English and other Germanic languages.

For instance: Sp- de, Fr - de (or "du"), It - di
Sp- el, la, lo, Fr - il, le, la, It - il, la, etc.
Sp - por, para, Fr - pour, It - per
Sp - tu, Fr - tu, It - tu
Sp - son, Fr - sont, It - son
Sp - como, Fr - comme, It - come
Sp - un, Fr - un, It - un
Sp - y, Fr - et, It - e

The above are just a few examples off the top of my head. So, because I know all of these core vocabulary words in Spanish, I'm able to understand all of these in Italian, and French, because they are so very similar to the Spanish equivalents. But this is not the case for an English speaker, with no training in other Germanic languages, even ones as similar as German and Dutch. The core words in these languages of the same origin as their English equivalents, are not even recognizable, because they are so different.

So, because the majority of our advanced level vocabulary is of French-Latinate origin, I can immediately recognize a great many words in French without even having to know a language like Spanish, especially in written form. These advanced level words comprise about 60% of the English language. The other 40%, which we use in our core vocabulary may be Germanic, but it is nearly impossible to recognize a link between these words and their Dutch or German equivalents, because they can be so drastically different, as compared to the close similarities shared by the core vocab words of the Romance languages.

So, because of my knowledge of Spanish, I can understand a great deal of core vocabulary in Portuguese, and a fair amount of the core vocab in French and Italian. And, because English is full of such an abundance of borrowed words from French, I can also understand a lot of complex vocabulary within other Romance languages, even if it might not be similar to Spanish.

I can usually recognize a Latin word right off in English, if it sounds similar to a word in Spanish. And in English, we use Latin/Germanic words interchangeably all of the time. For instance, two examples that spring to mind:
rich/wealthy (rico)
enough/sufficient (suficiente)

And because there are Latin cognates for many familiar words in English, memorizing Romance vocabulary is a lot easier because you have something to relate it to.

Now, about architecture:
I would say that there definitely is an Anglo influence in North America, as the colonial foundation was laid by British people. It's important to not exclude all of the Brits of non-English origin who were instrumental in the development of the American colonies, like some have the custom. Did you know, for example, that 1/3 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Welsh? There were many Scots and Scotch-Irish as well.

In other areas of the country, you can see a lot of Spanish influence in the architecture. In the area where I live, much of the architecture is done in the Spanish style, i.e. - Spanish tile roof, irons bars, bleached white walls, etc.

But American architecture in major cities can not really be described as being of the English style, as American architecture has undergone a completely alternate evoultionary process during its three centuries of independence from Britain, with waves of foreign immigrants from different cultures contributing to the unique artistic style.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
two "Birghmingams", but which is the English and the American ?

The first one is American; the second one is where I live.

Frankfurt am Main in Germany also has quite a similar look:







Quote:
Yes, in antimoon I realised that. My opinion is that there is maybe a feeling of superiority among the "Anglo world" towards the other Germanic countries (maybe due to WWI and II), and so it seems that it is considered "shamefull" by some people to speak a germanic language ...

I'm not really sure how much it has to do with WWI and WWII, but you're right that French tends to be perceived as being more 'sophisticated' than German (at least in England).

You're right though that one of the reasons for why there isn't really a common 'Germanic identity' as such is because the idea has racist/extremist/Nazi connotations.
Deborah



My city -- the Painted Ladies in all their fanciful glory! :love4:
Porthos

fab wrote:
Yes, in antimoon I realised that. My opinion is that there is maybe a feeling of superiority among the "Anglo world" towards the other Germanic countries (maybe due to WWI and II), and so it seems that it is considered "shamefull" by some people to speak a germanic language ... :(


No, it's not that at all. Perhaps some may wish to believe that English is a Latin language, but I don't think that's what most people are trying to say. You can think of it one of two ways. Either, English is the most screwed up language in the world (with so many borrowings from French, Greek, Norse, in addition to original Anglo-Saxon), or the most enriched language in the world. It has its "+" and "-".

But, the cultural attachment felt by continental Germanic peoples among each other, and that felt by Anglos to other Germanic speakers is not nearly as strong, so perhaps, Anglos struggle to identify with the continental Germanic peoples the same way the Dutch or Germans, or Danes might. It reminds me of the joke Benjamin told us about the Brits speaking of Britain and the British as not really being part of Europe. Historically, Britain, as an island, was more isolated from continental Germanic peoples, and underwent a seperate development, especially after the Norman conquest, where the English developed this inferiority complex about all things French, which persists to this day, in the form of their shamefulness toward their own culture, cuisine, architecture, etc. in favor of the French model, which supposedly represents sophistication. The English language evolved to become very distinct among the Germanic family, and with a very unique phonology to boot. And politically, Anglos have always been rather distant from the other Germanic peoples on the continent, largely because of geographical reasons. Even to this day, Britain remains more closely aligned with the other Anglophone commonwealth nations, and the U.S. than it is to the now, deeply integrated European continent, of which it is a part.

I tend to see Anglophones, not in the same light as Germans or Dutchmen, etc. I classify them in their own cultural branch within the Germanic cultures of Europe. Sort of alone, and isolated in a corner, having their own party, oblivious to what their Germanic cousins are doing on the other side of the room. For very good reasons, I identify both as an Anglo and as Hispanic, as I cross between both worlds on a daily basis. So, these two cultures and linguistic groups are very close to my heart. I identify with Australians, Brits, Irishmen, and Canadians, not just because of the language which we share, but also because of music I think. There is a lot of cross-cultural diffusion between national groups which speak the same language, since that is how pop culture is transmitted. So, we listen to a lot of the same music, the same rock bands, etc, and that is a major factor for myself as an American teenager. Yet, at the same time, I don't see the U.S. as being nearly as pure "Anglo" as the commonwealth countries. The U.S. culture has been enriched by a very different historical and political background, besides muliptle foriegn contributions from different ethno-cultural groups who flocked here over the centuries. Americans see pure "Anglo" culture as dry or bland, and that is generally how we steroetype the British, at least in the media. American on the other hand, is a melting pot of many different cultures, besides the Anglo-Saxon foundation.
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
[You're right though that one of the reasons for why there isn't really a common 'Germanic identity' as such is because the idea has racist/extremist/Nazi connotations.


That could be true, but there's more to it than that alone. There has never really been a common "Germanic identity" in recent memory that compares to the common identity shared by say, Latin peoples. But that is definitely a factor at play. It's just like the word 'Aryan'. Sometimes I use the word "Aryan" to describe all of the Indo-European peoples, but most associate that word with some mythical superior Germanic race. It's rather unfortunate really how certain terms become so corrupted by bad apples like Hitler.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
But, the cultural attachment felt by continental Germanic peoples among each other, and that felt by Anglos to other Germanic speakers is not nearly as strong, so perhaps, Anglos struggle to identify with the continental Germanic peoples the same way the Dutch or Germans, or Danes might.

Is it really though? What 'cultural attachment' do you perceive that the Dutch feel towards the Germans? :shock: In Germany, the Netherlands (like England) is apparently often perceived as quite a difficult place for Germans to live, due to an anti-German sentiment leftover from WWII.

Likewise, although the Danish would overwhelmingly feel a common identity with the Swedish and the Norwegians, I'm not so sure that they would identify so strongly with the Germans. Scandinavians tend to be Anglophiles, rather than Germanophiles. It would surprise me if the 'cultural attachment' which they feel with the Germans was particularly greater than what they feel with the British.
Porthos

Well there's more than cultural similarities than a grudge held about a 60 year old war. I'm sure it took the Spanish a long time to get over the French occupation and butchery of their land in the Napoleonic era, but they still did and do share a common cultural heritage and identity.

For me, I think of Germany and Holland, as well as the people and languages and cultures as being very similar, very "Germanic". The language is very similar sounding, the food is that same old bland, northern European meat, potatoes, boiled vegetables, lots of butter and dairy. There's Catholic Germans, but I think of Protestants. And the disposition of the people is very similar. For me, I can definiantly percieve a Pan-Germanic identity. But, I see England as being isolated from the main group of Germanic speaking peoples, and very distant compared to the rest of them. And ironically, when I think of the people themselves, the first physical stereotype which comes to mind about Scandanavians, Germans, and Dutchmen is this tall, blond haired, blue eyed look. I don't think of the stereotypical Englishmen that way.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
For me, I think of Germany and Holland, as well as the people and languages and cultures as being very similar, very "Germanic".

All I can say to that is that, from the pictures I've been looking at of the Netherlands over the past few days, it looks more like the England I know than the Germany I know (I don't know the whole of England or the whole of Germany). I'll have to go there next year to see for myself.

Quote:
The language is very similar sounding,

Personally, I don't really see German and Dutch as sounding particularly more similar to each-other than either sound to English.

Quote:
the food is that same old bland, northern European meat, potatoes, boiled vegetables, lots of butter and dairy.

Is that not exactly like traditional British food?

Quote:
But, I see England as being isolated from the main group of Germanic speaking peoples, and very distant compared to the rest of them.

What is it though that you think is so 'different'?

Quote:
And ironically, when I think of the people themselves, the first physical stereotype which comes to mind about Scandanavians, Germans, and Dutchmen is this tall, blond haired, blue eyed look. I don't think of the stereotypical Englishmen that way.

I still don't really notice much physical difference between white English people and white German people.
fab

Quote:
our core vocabulary may be Germanic, but it is nearly impossible to recognize a link between these words and their Dutch or German equivalents, because they can be so drastically different "


do you really think, I don't, let's compare English/Dutch very basic words : they are even more similar when pronounced.

hallo, hello
dag, day
morgen, morning
dank U, Thank you
open, open
is, is
denken, think
slaap, sleep
you, U
Het, it
Denkt, thing
goed, good
woorden, word
kan, can
of, of
de, the
deze, these
zo, so
drastish, drastic
hij, he
Ik eet, I eat
not old, niek oud
jong, young
maand, month
te luisteren, to listen
het is koel, it is cool
beste, best
een, one
U kunt, You can
Ik was, I was
wij waren, we were
altijd, always
dankt, thanks
voor, for (almost same pronoucation)
gewaardeerd, awarded (appraciated)
dit, this
zeg, say
te, to
mijn, my
hoofd; head
in, in
nu, now
dat, that
deur, door
water, water
koud, cold
bloed, blood
mond, mouth
land, land
koning, king
wereld, world

Etc. ...




Quote:
For me, I think of Germany and Holland, as well as the people and languages and cultures as being very similar, very "Germanic". The language is very similar sounding, the food is that same old bland, northern European meat, potatoes, boiled vegetables, lots of butter and dairy. There's Catholic Germans, but I think of Protestants. And the disposition of the people is very similar. For me, I can definiantly percieve a Pan-Germanic identity


It seems to me a very appropriate description of England.
Benjamin [inactive]

Sorry Josh, my quoting of you is all over the shop...

Porthos wrote:
Even to this day, Britain remains more closely aligned with the other Anglophone commonwealth nations, and the U.S. than it is to the now, deeply integrated European continent, of which it is a part.

I'd be a bit careful with trying to bring the European Union and the issue of European integration into this. Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are not members of the EU, and although Austria, Sweden and Denmark are members, they do have reputations for being somewhat 'half-hearted' members, rather like Britain (although interestingly not like Ireland, which is arguably the most pro-EU country in Europe).
Porthos

<<All I can say to that is that, from the pictures I've been looking at of the Netherlands over the past few days, it looks more like the England I know than the Germany I know (I don't know the whole of England or the whole of Germany). I'll have to go there next year to see for myself. >>

I've never been there, but I still think of Holland as looking more like Germany. Perhaps the weather has something do with it.

<<Is that not exactly like traditional British food? >>

Oh no, definately very much like traditional British food. I wasn't trying to say that they were different in that respect.

<<Personally, I don't really see German and Dutch as sounding particularly more similar to each-other than either sound to English.>>

I don't see how you can say that. To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English, by a long shot. And for us, it is very hard to distinguish between all of the Germanic accents. To me, a Dutch accent, a German accent, and even a Danish accent in English all sound pretty much the same. For me, English is the one with the most unique phonology within this family.

<>

This might be interesting to note. You know when you see little toy figures or cartoons or other representations of different peoples? An example that would come to mind are the animated characters at the Disneyland Amusement Park ride, called "It's a small world after all". There are singing machines that represent children from all over the world, with various cultures dress in traditional costumes, little Japanese girls dressed in kimonos, Africans dressed in traditional robe or loincloth, Mexican children with big sombreros, etc, swarthy, mustached Italians with an acordian. Get the drift? Well, in cases such as this, the Dutch, the Germans, and the Scandanavians are almost always depicted as blond haired, blue eyed, as if this is supposed to be a composite representation of what is most uniquely common to these respective peoples. But, the English people are usually depicted as having brown hair, or red hair. So, you can't really tell for certain what nationality someone belongs to, between northern Europeans, but there are certain traits which are more common in say, Norway, than England, like the rate of blond hair amongst the population.
Porthos

I don't know how the latter half of my post became italicized.
Porthos

Now, I bid you good evening gentlement. I must go do my "saxon" homework. :lol:
Porthos

And to me, ancient Anglo-Saxon looks more like Dutch than it does modern English. Perhaps it has more to do with differences in orthogrophy rathern than actual phonology and vocabulary.
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
As you all know, there are a core group of words which we use more than any other words. Examples - I, it, they, we, do, have, etc.

All of these words in English are of Germanic origin. Yet, unlike the Romance languages, these "core vocabulary" words are not neccessarily very similar looking or sounding between English and other Germanic languages.

For instance: Sp- de, Fr - de (or "du"), It - di
Sp- el, la, lo, Fr - il, le, la, It - il, la, etc.
Sp - por, para, Fr - pour, It - per
Sp - tu, Fr - tu, It - tu
Sp - son, Fr - sont, It - son
Sp - como, Fr - comme, It - come
Sp - un, Fr - un, It - un
Sp - y, Fr - et, It - e

Hmmm....

EN- from; NL- van; DE- von
EN- the; NL- de/het; DE- der/die/das
EN- for; NL- voor; DE- für
EN- you/thou; NL- jij; DE- du
EN- you; NL- u; DE- ihr/Sie
EN- as; NL- als; DE- als
EN- a(n); NL- een; DE- ein(e)
EN- and; NL- en; DE- und

(It's more important to think in terms of pronunciation, rather than the written form).

Quote:
I can usually recognize a Latin word right off in English, if it sounds similar to a word in Spanish. And in English, we use Latin/Germanic words interchangeably all of the time. For instance, two examples that spring to mind:
rich/wealthy (rico)
enough/sufficient (suficiente)

Interesting examples, actually, because...

rich (English); rijk (Dutch); reich (German)
Benjamin [inactive]

Porthos wrote:
I've never been there, but I still think of Holland as looking more like Germany.

I thought that as well until a few days ago. But now my opinion has gone the other way.

I was looking at some Dutch estate agent websites this evening, to get an idea of what the regular houses look like. Here are some typical examples of what I found:







Those all look virtually identical to English suburbs, but would look a bit out of place in Southern and Central Germany (I don't know Northern Germany).

Now, here's a question: is this house in England or the Netherlands?
fab

Quote:
I don't see the U.S. as being nearly as pure "Anglo" as the commonwealth countries. The U.S. culture has been enriched by a very different historical and political background, besides muliptle foriegn contributions from different ethno-cultural groups who flocked here over the centuries.


But it is not a US speciality, what about English canada's population ? What about Australia ? What about UK (tell benjamin that his country is made by one "etny" only!...)
The netherlands also are a mix of multiples etnic groups. (so most of Europe is).


Quote:
I've never been there, but I still think of Holland as looking more like Germany. Perhaps the weather has something do with it


actually, the climate of netherlands is more similar to English one (northern oceanic), than German one (which is mostly of continental dominant)




Quote:
I don't see how you can say that. To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English


It seems logical that you canno't confuse English as German or Dutch, since it is a language that you understand. We always tend to think that two languages we don't understand are closer to each other, because we don't know them to be able to ear the defferences (between Dutch an German for exemple)




Quote:
Well, in cases such as this, the Dutch, the Germans, and the Scandanavians are almost always depicted as blond haired, blue eyed, as if this is supposed to be a composite representation of what is most uniquely common to these respective peoples. But, the English people are usually depicted as having brown hair, or red hair.


Scandinavians are famous for having high numbers of very blond haired people. England, Netherland and Germany also, but they are much more mixed.
Actually the average tipical Englishman is rarely seen as brown haired (at least here), but more red or dark blond and blond. Actually I think you find all kinds of hair colors in England in important proportion, as well as in Germany. I don't remember having seen any difference in the physical appearance of English and German people.



Quote:
But, the cultural attachment felt by continental Germanic peoples among each other


I tend to think that, among germanic people, the ones that are isolated would be more the germans than the English.
I think for different reasons :
- politic herency of WWII
- geographical situation more in the south than all other germanic countries (especiall concerning southern Germany, to which we could associate Austria and Alemanic Switzerland.
Germany/ Autria are often condiered as central Europeans more than north Europeans as English, Dutchs and scandinavians are (ealthough northern Germany is much more north European than central European in my opinion).
- Scandinavians, Dutchs and Scandinavians are Anglophiles, English is used as a second language there. In the same time they tend to dislike German culture.


" English is the most screwed up language in the world "

how can you be so sure about that ?
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
I tend to think that, among germanic people, the ones that are isolated would be more the germans than the English.

Although I hadn't considered this question before, I think I'd actually agree.
fab

Northern Germany doesn't have really a distinctive house architecture, but it would be mostly those kinds :

http://www.euratlas.com/Atlas/germany_north/fr_index.html

http://travel.webshots.com/album/257468720clvomX




Hello André, thanks for the advice ! :P
André in Zuid-Afrika

Hi Fab!

Seems your links are too long! Also, stick to five or six images per post. The best is to find shorter links. :wink:
Deborah

Fab pix, fab!
Benjamin [inactive]

Hmm...





So the Northern German style appears to be rather like the English/Dutch style then. Southern Germany looks a bit different.
Icke

Hi guys :D

fab wrote:

I don't see how you can say that. To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English


Well, as a German I tend to think the same actually. I've never learnt Dutch, but except for a few words it's possible to understand written Dutch (but maybe also with the help of my knowledge of English). The grammar/ syntax is more similar to the German than the English one, of course.


Quote:
I tend to think that, among germanic people, the ones that are isolated would be more the germans than the English.
I think for different reasons :
- politic herency of WWII
- geographical situation more in the south than all other germanic countries (especiall concerning southern Germany, to which we could associate Austria and Alemanic Switzerland.
Germany/ Autria are often condiered as central Europeans more than north Europeans as English, Dutchs and scandinavians are (ealthough northern Germany is much more north European than central European in my opinion).
- Scandinavians, Dutchs and Scandinavians are Anglophiles, English is used as a second language there. In the same time they tend to dislike German culture.


I've never been to the Netherlands yet nor to the North Germanic countries, i.e. Scandinavia. It's possibly true that most of them still feel like that in the Netherlands because of WW II, but this is just a personal, and thus a subjective matter, but does this change the fact that there is a cultural or linguistical similiarity?
Icke

Oops, I made a quoting mistake. This wasn't fab's quote but Porthos one...

Quote:

I don't see how you can say that. To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English
Benjamin [inactive]

Icke wrote:
Hi guys :D

Porthos wrote:

I don't see how you can say that. To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English


Well, as a German I tend to think the same actually. I've never learnt Dutch, but except for a few words it's possible to understand written Dutch (but maybe also with the help of my knowledge of English). The grammar/ syntax is more similar to the German than the English one, of course.

I do accept that the German and Dutch languages are on the whole more similar to each-other than either are to English, especially on paper. However, Porthos' initial comment was that he found that German and Dutch sound very similar to each-other overall, whilst the overall sound of English is very different. This is what I do not find to be the case, particularly. (I might actually suggest though that the overall sound of English is more similar to that of German than to that of Dutch -- there are very few sounds in German which don't exist in English, for example).


Quote:
I've never been to the Netherlands yet nor to the North Germanic countries, i.e. Scandinavia. It's possibly true that most of them still feel like that in the Netherlands because of WW II, but this is just a personal, and thus a subjective matter, but does this change the fact that there is a cultural or linguistical similiarity?

You're right, it doesn't. I think that that Fab's comment here was mainly in response to Porthos' claim that Germanic language speakers in Mainland Europe (including Scandinavia, which incidentally is not always seen as part of 'Mainland' or 'Continental' Europe as such) experience some sort of common identity of 'togetherness' which excludes the English/British. In my experience, this is not particularly the case.
Pauline

Benjamin wrote:

Now, here's a question: is this house in England or the Netherlands?


I wanted to say, that I think it's in England. Now, that I've quoted it, I can see the website address is in the uk. The house look english because of the chimney and the drainpipes. It's correct ?

Porthos wrote:
To my ears, and I think the average American would agree, German and Dutch sound very similar to each other, and look more similar on paper than either do to English, by a long shot. And for us, it is very hard to distinguish between all of the Germanic accents. To me, a Dutch accent, a German accent, and even a Danish accent in English all sound pretty much the same. For me, English is the one with the most unique phonology within this family.
sometimes, when I not concentrate, dutch sound like american english for me. I think that spoken dutch is more similar to english than to german, especially in some parts of the Netherlands. In flanders, it's different because of the r, and it's gentler pronounced in general. The only dutch what can sound a little like german for me, is the southeast limburg dutch, and this is like the german plattdeutsch of cologne, aachen etc...

When a dutch is speaking french, he/she has another accent that a german. I didn't listened a Danish speaking french.
fab

Quote:
Now, here's a question: is this house in England or the Netherlands?


England




Quote:
It's possibly true that most of them still feel like that in the Netherlands because of WW II, but does this change the fact that there is a cultural or linguistical similiarity


No, the fact of liking a culture or not has nothing to see with the cultural or linguistical similarity. for exemple a lot of Portuguese don't like so much Spanish but are very close to them culturally.

As for Germany, I tend to think that it depends of which germany you are speaking : the north-western, the south-western or northestern ? And to which point of view we are talking; language, general ambiance, city center architecture, suburbs architecture, climate, etc.

Generally speaking I think that Germany is culturally and geographically is part of two "different Europes" in the same time (not talking in count the East-West opposition which is due to recent political events and not of deep-rooted cultural differences)
the south (and maybe center also) is traditionally seen as part of central Europe - with a specific architecture, dominant catholic religion, and maybe an history with more contacts with other "civilisations", especially the roman one (northern Germany have never been part of the Roman empire). In southern Germany wine stand alongside with beer (which remain the most popular, see the beer festivals). The geographical position of southern Germany place it at the same latitudes than northern France or Czeck Republic, which is difficult to consider as northern Europe.
On the other way, northern germany is widely open on the north sea and baltic sea (the two main seas of northern Europe), has borders with Denmark and Netherlands. These lands are of protestant tradition, and show a tipical northern European ambiance (in both geography, architecture and climate).[/quote]
Benjamin [inactive]

You're both right -- it's in England because it's my house. :) Everyone always comments on the chimney, lol.

Quote:
I can see the website address is in the uk.

How observant! :) However, it's actually hosted on my own website, and I have pictures from many countries on there.
Icke

Benjamin wrote:

some sort of common identity of 'togetherness' which excludes the English/British. In my experience, this is not particularly the case.


Yes, I agree with you Benjamin. This kind of togetherness may be true among the Scandinavian countries, but there isn't really the same sort of common identity among the other germanic countries despite cultural similiarities.
I think the reason why most people tend to exclude England, is that English people exclude themselves somehow and they feel more cultural attached to their neighbors, namely the Celtic countries, than to the other West Germanic countries. So, it seems that this is actually only a linguistic matter, since there are more similiarities among the North Germanic languages than among the West Germanic languages.

Pauline wrote:

I think that spoken dutch is more similar to english than to german, especially in some parts of the Netherlands.


When I hear spoken Dutch it sounds something in between German and English for me, but actually I feel that I can't really comment on that. You are probably right though :)

fab wrote:

Generally speaking I think that Germany is culturally and geographically is part of two "different Europes" in the same time.
the south (and maybe center also) is traditionally seen as part of central Europe - with a specific architecture, dominant catholic religion, and maybe an history with more contacts with other "civilisations", especially the roman one


Politically speaking, (the whole of) Germany belongs to Central Europe. Of course, in a geographical and cultural sense the south (especially Bavaria) is not only different from the north, but also a bit from Central Germany. I live in the Central part and I feel that a lot of things in Bavaria are alien to me :shock:

fab wrote:

northern Germany have never been part of the Roman empire


Well, this is somehow misleading. Those germanic tribes who are the ancestors of the Bavarians or Swabians, have also never been part of the Roman Empire (unless you don't mean the 'Holy Roman Empire of the German nation'), but yes, they were more in contact with the Romans.
fab

guess the country

a little game, from where do you think these pictures are taken ?
(they are from different places of different European countries)
(say it sponteanously without thinking or trying to find clues, such as the website from which it is taken...)
There are some traps...


1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.


12.

13.

14.
fab

Quote:
When I hear spoken Dutch it sounds something in between German and English for me, but actually I feel that I can't really comment on that. You are probably right though


In netherlands I found the language soundng, excepted for the "r" sounds which are very very hard sounding in Dutch. But I think if we change the "r" of Dutch by the english ones, it would be very close.
Loic

Are all the photos taken in the southern part of France? To me, it has a Mediterranean feel to it.
Elaine

Benjamin wrote:
You're both right -- it's in England because it's my house. :) Everyone always comments on the chimney, lol.


And what a lovely home at that! It's what I'd imagine an English country/suburban home to look like.
Elaine

Re: guess the country

fab wrote:
a little game, from where do you think these pictures are taken ?


I'm guessing Germany, Switzerland, and Austria as some of those locations, although don't ask me which ones. :?

The towers in #4 look Italianate, however the cathedral looks to me like buildings I've seen in pictures of Switzerland. #13 looks like a village in Spain, #s 11 & 14 don't show up for me at all.
Benjamin [inactive]

Fab's pictures...

1. France
2. France
3. Scotland
4. Norway
5. Czechia
6. Italy
7. Italy
8. France
9. France
10. Austria
11. doesn't work
12. Germany
13. Croatia
14. doesn't work
Pauline

Benjamin wrote:
You're both right -- it's in England because it's my house. :) Everyone always comments on the chimney, lol.

It's a wonderful house ! There must be rooms who have all different shapes and windows :)
-----------------------------------------------
Pauline wrote:

I think that spoken dutch is more similar to english than to german, especially in some parts of the Netherlands.

Icke wrote:
When I hear spoken Dutch it sounds something in between German and English for me, but actually I feel that I can't really comment on that. You are probably right though :)

Why can't you comment on that - because german is your mother tongue ? I think I didn't clearly wrote what I meaned : dutch is between english and german, and it seems this in all thinsg (pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary etc..) but, where the grammar maybe is some more german, then the pronunciation is more between or nearer english. This is because of the vowels, r in some areas and the intonation (sometimes intonation, not always).But I think there's some pronunciations nearer english and other ones nearer german, depending of the region I suppose.

I admit, that pronunciation is absolutely my worst thing in languages. I can read and write them much better that understand spoken or speak, so in a converstaion about pronunciation I better not comment LOL !
Pauline

My guesses of fab's pictures :

1. no idea
2. Britain
3. france
4. Hungary
5. Holland
6. Italy
7. Italy
8. Austria
9. Italy or croatia
10. Germany
11. Czech republic
12. scotland
13. Bulgaria
14. Bulgaria or croatia
fab

Loic,

No, all the picture are not from southern France, but some of them yes.


Elaine,

number 4 is absolutly not Italian.
number 13 is in spain, could you guess in which part of it ?



Benjamin,

1&2 are not France
3 is not Scotland
4 is not norway, but could be.
5 is not Czechia
6&7 are not Italy
10 is not Austria
13 is not crotia but Spain, Elaine guessed it

You guessed well 8&9, which are in France. could you guess in which part of it (both are in the same region, 30km of distance)?




Pauline, I'm sorry, only one good answer

2 is not Britain
4 is not Hungary
5 is not Holland
6 & 7 are not Italy
8 is not Austria, it is in France. In which region ?
9 is not in Italy or croatia but in France, in the same region than 8.
10 is not Germany
11 is not Czech republic
12 is not Scotland
13 is not Bulgaria but Spain
14 is not Bulgaria or croatia

3 is in France, could you guess in which part ?




To resume, numbers 3, 8, 9 and 13 have been guessed. If anyone have more precise idea of the regions ?
Porthos

[quote="fab"][quote]But it is not a US speciality, what about English canada's population ? What about Australia ? What about UK (tell benjamin that his country is made by one "etny" only!...)
The netherlands also are a mix of multiples etnic groups. (so most of Europe is).

Not nearly as much as the U.S. And unlike the commonwealth countries, the U.S. has experienced massive immigration from countries outside of the British Isles, unlike the commwealth, who were mainly subjected to further protestant British colonization, along with some Irish settlers. The U.S. has recieved multitudes of immigrants from cultures which are very different from the Anglo model. We had limitless Italians, Eastern Europeans, Germans, and Scandanavians flock to our shores over the last few centuries, and more recently, a tidal wave of immigrants from Latin America, along with three hundred years of trying to be different from the British, due to our political history.








Quote:
It seems logical that you canno't confuse English as German or Dutch, since it is a language that you understand. We always tend to think that two languages we don't understand are closer to each other, because we don't know them to be able to ear the defferences (between Dutch an German for exemple)


If that were the case, then why can I instantly recognize the differences between Italian and Spanish, or Italian and Portuguese, or French and Italian? I have never studied any of these languages, and I only took an avid interest in languages in the last couple of months. But I can easily tell all of these languages apart. Not only that, but I can also easily decipher different accents in English among Romance speakers. I can immediately tell whether a person's accent is French, Spanish, Italian, etc. But, I have to ask Germanic speakers what their mother tounge is, everytime, without fail.


[quote] Scandinavians are famous for having high numbers of very blond haired people. England, Netherland and Germany also, but they are much more mixed.
Actually the average tipical Englishman is rarely seen as brown haired (at least here), but more red or dark blond and blond. Actually I think you find all kinds of hair colors in England in important proportion, as well as in Germany. I don't remember having seen any difference in the physical appearance of English and German people. [quote]

Well, that is not the case here. Whenever there are little toy figures or pictures of Dutch people, or an actress playing the part of a Dutch person, the people portrayed are usually Dutch. I used to work for a Dutch immigrant here who owned a chain of pizza houses. And, I knew his extended family quite well. I would even go over to their house on the weekends for a Dutch breakfast. And, at least one in three of everyone in his extended family had very light blond hair, and blue eyes. They were very light complected, and *very* tall. Even the women were as tall as I am. And, at my stay at the hotel, I encountered a couple hundred Dutch people, and they looked like stereotypical vikings to me. It seemed like almost everyone of them was tall, with blond hair, or some had red hair, and it was not unusual for me to see men that were 6'5 or taller. So, from my perspective, it seems like Scandanavians and Dutchmen have the highest rates of blondism. Germans, it seems like, have a lower rate of blondism, and I would say there are more brown haired persons in Germany than there are in Holland or Scandanavia. I think this is because Germany is a large country, and much of it extends into Central Europe, so that many southern and central Germans might have mixed more with Alpine peoples, and Celts, etc. Again, from my perspective, I think of Celtic peoples from the British Isles (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) as either having the mark of the Celts, flaming red hair, or dark hair, like the "silky" stereotype the English gave them. With the English, they seem to be a bit smaller than continental Germanic peoples, and with higher rates of red hair and brown hair, somewhat similar to the Celtic peoples. We usually think of the Brits as being very pale too. A perfect stereotypical example of an Englishman would be Benjamin. He looks like the stereotypical Englishman to me. We often make jokes too, about Germanic women (other than English women) as being mannish in a way, as if they have deep voices, and are masculine.


Quote:
I tend to think that, among germanic people, the ones that are isolated would be more the germans than the English.
I think for different reasons :
- politic herency of WWII
- geographical situation more in the south than all other germanic countries (especiall concerning southern Germany, to which we could associate Austria and Alemanic Switzerland.
Germany/ Autria are often condiered as central Europeans more than north Europeans as English, Dutchs and scandinavians are (ealthough northern Germany is much more north European than central European in my opinion).
- Scandinavians, Dutchs and Scandinavians are Anglophiles, English is used as a second language there. In the same time they tend to dislike German culture.


Oh, I think just the opposite. I see Germany as the central point for the Germanic world, whereas to me, I compartmentalize the English in a distinct, isolated branch, apart from continental Germanic peoples.
Porthos

Error: <<Whenever there are little toy figures or pictures of Dutch people, or an actress playing the part of a Dutch person, the people portrayed are usually *Dutch*.>>
Substitute "blond" for "Dutch" there.
Benjamin [inactive]

Quote:
I see Germany as the central point for the Germanic world

To a large extent though, this is probably because the English word 'Germanic' strongly implies 'Germany'. I see absolutely no reason at all for why the deutsche Vaterland should be considered the centre of the germanische Welt.
Porthos

Benjamin wrote:
Quote:

To a large extent though, this is probably because the English word 'Germanic' strongly implies 'Germany'. I see absolutely no reason at all for why the deutsche Vaterland should be considered the centre of the germanische Welt.


Well, it's the biggest, and most populated Germanic country for one. But you're right, about it's name in English. That could be what is influencing my opinion.

But this is honestly how I group the cultural/lingustic groups of Pan-Germania. I group the countries, languages, and peoples in these categories. And this is just how my brain identifies them.

Mainland Europe:
Germany
Netherlands
Flanders

Central Europe:
Austria
Switzerland (parts of it)

Norse:
Denmark
Sweden
Norway
Iceland

British Isles:
England

I think of southern Germany as being a lot like Austria, while northern Germany seems a lot like Holland. To me, German and Dutch sound and look very similar, and I generally think of their languages, country, people, and culture as being as similar as say, Spain and Portugal. The Norse countries have really similar languages, which sound like martian to me. They share that Viking heritage, and similar geography. And England, which includes its culture, history, language, people, etc., just seems like its in its own category.

I suppose Fab would call me Germanic, although, I don't really think of international Anglophones as Germanic, but very distinct. To me, I'm a Hispano-Anglophone. That's how I identify myself, because that's the subculture that I belong to. Even during the olympics, aside from the U.S., I always root for Hispanophone and Anglophone countries, or even in the world cup. The music I listen to is almost always English or Spanish...... etc, etc.
fab

" The music I listen to is almost always English or Spanish "

What kind of spanish (or mexican) music did you like ? What are the best mexican singers or bands for you ? I asked you the question in the "music forum", maybe you could post some exemples in this music forum to have an idea of what music mexican people listen.



I tend to agree with benjamin. The fact that the English language call "germany", "germany", provokes an association of Germany as the "center of the germanic world". In reality the germanic countries did not get thair name or their culture from the "german" influence, but the inverse, "Germany" got its name because the country have been "germanized" by some germanic tribes.

If I had to classify the germanic countries I maybe would do as this:
- Scandinavia, for geographical reasons, but also linguistic, cultural and climatic. it would be the "northern germanics"
- North Germany, Netherlands and England, would be "central germanics"
- South Germany, Austria and Switezrland, would be "southern germanics"
Benjamin [inactive]

fab wrote:
If I had to classify the germanic countries I maybe would do as this:
- Scandinavia, for geographical reasons, but also linguistic, cultural and climatic. it would be the "northern germanics"
- North Germany, Netherlands and England, would be "central germanics"
- South Germany, Austria and Switezrland, would be "southern germanics"

Sounds reasonable to me! Of course, Scotland, Wales and Ireland have a somewhat ambiguous position in all of this (à la does being 'Celtic' prevent them from being 'Germanic', especially when the vast majority of the people there speak English as their native language and they're not all that different from England anyway).
Porthos

I listen to all different kinds. You probably won't like Ranchero music, which is like Mexican cowboy music. That's what the older generations listen to.

But my cousins say this song is really popular in Mexico right now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW...sg4Y&mode=related&search=

One of the all time famous Mexican-American songs is "La Bamba", that was really popular in the '60s at the start of the Chicano movement.
http://www.anos60.com/grandes_exitos/home.htm

Here's a video from a movie about Richy Valens (Ricardo Valenzuela)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OAUWaWxFSQ

Mexican-Americans listen to a lot of Chicano music, but also mainstream American music, or if their primary language is Spansih, they will listen to a lot of Spanish language music. In Mexico, there are famous pop stars from all over the Hispanic world, including Spain.

Here's a really popular Chicano rock/punk/reagge band called Sublime. They sing in both English and Spanish, and they're from my home town. My brother actually knew them, and they also became very popular in all of the U.S. You might not understand the Spanish because there is a lot of Mexican slang.
http://profile.myspace.com/index....iewprofile&friendID=117081538
Benjamin [inactive]

Okay, how about this:

1. Portugal
2. Ireland
3. France (Bretagne?)
4. Sweden
5. Slovakia
6. France (there's a church in Clermont-Ferrand which looks rather like that)
7. Spain
8. France (Lyon?)
9. France (somewhere near Lyon?)
10. Switzerland
11. Poland
12. France
13. Spain
14. Montenegro

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