Porthos
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The formal form of "you" in Romance languagesI find it rather strange that the formal form of "you" in Italian, French, and Spanish are all very different from each other, and don't appear to be related. The informal is the same, or in most grammatical scenarios, is the same, although there can be some variations depending on the sentence. The basic form is "tu".
Formal:
It - Lei
Fr - Vous
Sp - Usted
It - tu
Fr - tu
Sp- tu
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Julian
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Re: The formal form of "you" in Romance languages | Porthos wrote: | | I find it rather strange that the formal form of "you" in Italian, French, and Spanish are all very different from each other, and don't appear to be related. |
It really isn't so strange once you learn the history behind these differences.
If I may... 
The way I heard or read it was that several centuries ago, practically all the Romance languages had similar forms for the 2nd person formal: vous (Fr), voi (It), vos (Sp), vós -> você (Po), vostê (Ca), vos (Oc), etc., all stemming from the Latin 2nd person plural vos. What changed things around was the Spanish nobility.
Apparently, by the 16th and 17th centuries, the Spanish Crown was so strapped for cash, fighting wars in the Low Countries, Central and Southern Europe, and the Americas, that they began selling titles of nobility to finance their campaigns. Soon enough, everybody and their mothers had aristocratic titles and they were all being addressed as "vos". This was too much for the real nobility to bear, so they came up with a newer form of address to distinguish themselves from the bargain-basement nobility: Vuestra Merced (Your Grace), which eventually got shortened to vuested, then vusted, vsted and finally to it's present form, usted. In some remote parts of South America, vusted / vustedes are still used by the locals, or in the case of Colombia, su merced.
Around the same period, the Spanish Crown took control of much of Italy and influenced the way the Italians addressed their superiors – La Sua Signoria / La Signoria Vostra (Your Lordship / Ladyship), L'eccellenza Vostra (Your Excellency), etc. Since all these forms were feminine regardless of the person's gender, lei was the obvious pronoun to accompany them. By the early 20th century, tu, voi, and lei were all in common use; however, it is said that Mussolini considered "lei" unmanly and too foreign and tried to ban it in favor of "voi". Ultimately, when Mussolini met his end, so too did the use of "voi" (except in Southern Italy, where it is still considered the correct form of showing proper respect).
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Loic
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An illuminating explanation, Julian!
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fab
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| Quote: | | Around the same period, the Spanish Crown took control of much of Italy and influenced the way the Italians addressed their superiors – La Sua Signoria / La Signoria Vostra (Your Lordship / Ladyship), L'eccellenza Vostra (Your Excellency), etc. Since all these forms were feminine regardless of the person's gender, lei was the obvious pronoun to accompany them |
Very interesting.
I think that this fashion had also touched France for VERY important people it was in the use to call them with the 3rd person, in expression such as :
"Son Altesse, Sa seigneurie, Son excellence", etc. or
"Votre honneur, votre excellence, votre altesse, etc."
those expressions would be linked the pre-revolutionary times and it would seem like "historical" speech today.
Some people who are very proud of themselves use(d) to speak about themseves using "he/she" instead of "me".
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| fab wrote: | I think that this fashion had also touched France for VERY important people it was in the use to call them with the 3rd person, in expression such as :
"Son Altesse, Sa seigneurie, Son excellence", etc. or
"Votre honneur, votre excellence, votre altesse, etc."
those expressions would be linked the pre-revolutionary times and it would seem like "historical" speech today. |
Yes — most of those those can be translated literally into English, like 'your honour', 'your excellence', 'your grace', 'your lordship', 'sire', 'excellency' etc. — they are still used to some extent in England for addressing aristocrats and archbishops etc. The queen is addressed with 'your (royal) majesty', whilst other royalty are addressed with 'your (royal) highness'. And again, if you want to sound very very formal and old-fashioned, you could replace 'you' with 'his'/'her'.
| Quote: | | Some people who are very proud of themselves use(d) to speak about themseves using "he/she" instead of "me". |
Interestingly, my grandparents often speak about themselves in the third person when they speak to me. I've never really known why.
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Porthos
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| Quote: | | Some people who are very proud of themselves use(d) to speak about themseves using "he/she" instead of "me". |
Omg, that's hysterical!
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Porthos
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Julian, thank you very much for that excellent historical summary.
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Julian
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| Porthos wrote: | | Julian, thank you very much for that excellent historical summary. |
My pleasure.
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Loic
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I speak to my parents using the third person pronoun when I am addressing them. So for example, instead of asking my mother what she is planning to do for the day, I'd ask, 'What is mummy doing today?'
I think it stems from the fact that my parents have always referred to themselves as 'mummy' and 'daddy' when they were speaking to me when I was a kid. On hindsight, I think they still do the same.
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Fredrik
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Interesting!
I have seen the same form of adress which you describe, loic, used in old novels, one of them in a peasant setting in 19th century Germany, so I think it's an old form and probably has as much to do with affectionate "baby talk", as you rightly point out, as with politeness.
Likewise, I personally find it funny how my parents refer to each other as Far (= Dad) and Mor (= Mum) when they speak with me, but use each other's first names when speaking directly to each other.
I guess it takes some time of linguistical awareness from the moment a baby is born untill the parents have perfected such terms of adress.
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Pauline
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LOL !!
i've noticed that my parents when they talk with us say : Mummy say .... daddy think ...
except when they're angry then they say : your mother say... your father think ... (very formal and annoyed  )
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Loic
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Fredrik: Yes, it's the same situation in my family where my parents refer to each other by their parental roles when they are talking to me. So if I want a favour and I approach my mother who is always a little more obliging, she'd get around my request sometimes by saying, 'Go ask daddy'.
I wonder if anyone actually calls their parents by their first names. I think that qualifies almost as a taboo for me.
Pauline: Do you use the informal or formal second person pronoun with your parents? I once read a novel set in the 18th century where the scion of a minor aristocratic family addressed his parents always by 'vous' and never 'tu'.
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Benjamin [inactive]
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| Pauline wrote: | | i've noticed that my parents when they talk with us say : Mummy say .... daddy think ... |
That's exactly how my grandparents talk to me. They'll say things like 'nanny is tired' or 'grandad did [something] last week' when referring to themselves.
| loic wrote: | | I wonder if anyone actually calls their parents by their first names. I think that qualifies almost as a taboo for me. |
Have you ever read To Kill a Mocking-bird? I always thought it was strange that the children addressed their father by their first name in that book. But I've noticed that my uncle often addresses his mother (my grandmother) by her first name (well actually her middle name, because she doesn't use her first name).
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