| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Benjamin [inactive] |
The thing is, my church does not adhere to any specific tennants and has no creed. Instead, we have three guiding principles -- Freedom, Reason and Tolerence -- and an 'object', which is as follows: To promote a free and inquiring religion through the worship of God and the celebration of life; the service of humanity and respect for all creation; and the upholding of the liberal Christian tradition. There has been much debate recently as to whether or not the reference to the 'liberal Christian tradition' should be removed, and some have even questioned the reference to God. Traditionally, we're the people who denied the Trinity and asserted the full humanity of Jesus, viewing hymn as a great, perhaps the greatest ever, religious and ethical teacher, but not uniquely God-incarnate. Probably 99% of us today would still agree with that statement, even though it is not our main preoccupation anymore. This is a wild guess, but I'd be very surprised if more than perhaps 5% of us today regarded Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour -- those of us who consider themselves Christians do so because their spiritual life is centred around Jesus and because they believe that it is acceptable and appropriate to see themselves as such.
Yes, they do. I would consider them to be Christians as well.
Absolutely.
Again, I defintely agree. Thankfully, the Church of England no-longer uses its position for selfish gains, even though it has done in the past. My church was illegal until 1813, and it's only in the past hundred years or so that we've been allowed to attend mainstream universities. |
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| KSa |
Benjamin, Which "God" are you referring to if you recognize all religions (which may equally mean you don't recognize any) and even some think there's no need to refer to God at all? PS. Do you think we may ask Andre to set up a "Religion" subforum? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
I refer to a Universal God. Not a God which is limited by any particular religious organisation or sacred text.
Sounds good! It will depend on whether or not Andrι thinks that there would be enough demand for this though. |
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| Loic |
Not a bad idea. Religion has always been fascinating fodder for discussions (or diatribes) amongst us.
Benjamin: The more you explain about your creed, the more I understand what your church actually believes in. I have been given to understand that you, as a believer, sees your church as one of the many vehicles to know and love God. You believe that no vehicle is inherently better than the other - all paths would eventually lead to Rome. This is a very inclusive concept and I have to say that I find it a very good idea. Roman Catholics since the reforms enacted by the Second Vatican Council have also adopted a similar approach albeit one which is still far more stringent than yours. To illustrate my point with a real story, I'd begin by telling you that the Virgin Mary was rumoured to have made apparitions somewhere in the now defunct Yugoslavia in the 1980s. This excited many believers worldwide and prompted a pilgrimage to the spot of the supposed apparition. Quite a few Singaporeans joined in this pilgrimage and although they did not see any apparitions of the Blessed Virgin herself, they did hear a story from a fellow traveller who claimed to have seen her. So this traveller asked her about heaven and whether God'd exclude her Muslim friends (I presume this pilgrim lived in a multicultural society) from His plans. The Virgin Mary replied otherwise, saying that God welcomes everyone who is of good heart and character. In other words, one does not need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven. This stands in stark contrast to a particular denomination I know i.e. the Baptists, who stridently maintain that Roman Catholics 'will go to hell'. |
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| KSa |
So tell me what differs Unitarianism from Pantheism. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Lovely story, loic!
Essentially yes. That's not to say though that all beliefs are equally valid and reasonable. Indeed, we may openly criticise certain beliefs. For example, many Unitarians have been and are still involved in campaigns against racism, sexism, homophobia, violence etc. indeed, Rev Gordon Oliver, the current president of the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists, and former mayor of Cape Town, was a prominent anti-apartheid campaigner. I'm actually really excited, because I'll be meeting him next month. Of course, our lack of a formal creed has left our doors open to people with a wide variety of ideas. This has led some to question exactly who should and should not consider themselves Unitarians. For example, is it necessary to see yourself as a Christian in order to be a Unitarian? To what extent do earth-centred spirituality, new age beliefs, parapsychology and atheism have a place within our movement? These are all questions which we have been dealing with. Here is a hymn, written in 1935 by John Andrew Storey, entitled The Living God, which I think sums up the ethos of Unitarianism very well. It is sung to this tune: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/mid/v/i/vienna.mid Down the ages we have trod Many paths in search of God, Seeking ever to define The Eternal and Divine. Some have seen eternal good Pictured best in Parenthood, And a Being throned above Ruling over us in love. There are others who proclaim God and Nature are the same, And the present Godhead own Where Creation's laws are known. There are eyes which best can see God within humanity, And God's countenance there trace Written in the human face. Where compassion is most found Is for some the hallowed ground, And these paths they upward plod Teaching us that love is God. Though the truth we can't perceive, This at least we must believe, What we take most earnestly Is our living Deity. Our true God we there shall find Is what claims our heart and mind, And our hidden thoughts enshrine That which for us is Divine. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Pantheism is the belief that the universe itself and everything within it is God. I think that that viewpoint is described in the third verse of the hymn which I posted above: There are others who proclaim God and Nature are the same, And the present Godhead own Where Creation's laws are known. As far as I'm concerned, one could easily be a pantheist and a Unitarian, or a Unitarian-Pantheist for those of us who like hyphenated titles. However, it is not necessary to be a pantheist in order to be a Unitarian. Equally, not all pantheists would fit into Unitarianism either. |
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| KSa |
How many Unitarians are there in the world right now? Are there any in Poland? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Although there have been non-Trinitarian Christians since the time of Jesus, the first beliefs remotely resembling modern Unitarianism arguably started in Poland. The Polish Brethren, often known as Antitrinitarians, Arians or Socinians, was a Protestant Church in 16th century Poland which rejected the Trinity, the existence of Hell and the divinity of Jesus. They were also against the death penalty, military service and private property, supported separation of the Church and State and advocated equality. They were expelled from Poland and emigrated to England, the Netherlands and East Prussia.
As for how many Unitarians there are in the world today, here are the estimates from the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists and a number of other books I've read for various countries: United States 160,000 Romania 80,000 Hungary 25,000 India 9,000 Britain 6,000 Canada 6,000 Germany 2,000 Philippines 2,000 Czech Republic 600 Australia 400 Denmark 300 Indonesia 250 South Africa 200 Netherlands 150 New Zealand 100 Pakistan 100 Poland 80 Spain 55 Sri Lanka 25 Finland 22 Russia 15 There are other small communities elsewhere, but I don't have the numbers for them. Their numbers wouldn't make much difference to the overall picture anyway. The number of Unitarians in the world is sometimes estimated as about 400,000, partly because significantly more Americans identify as Unitarians on the census form than the official numbers of the denomination suggest. |
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| KSa |
What struck me the most is the difference between Romania/Hungary and other European countries (excluding UK).
Yes, but according to the Polish version of Wikipedia unitarianism was brought to Poland in 16th century but started elsewhere by a Spanish doctor and theologist Michal Serwet (it's Polish spelling). |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Yes Michael Servetus. I understand that he went to live in Poland and started the first proper community which bore some resemblance to modern Unitarianism there. I'm afraid I don't know all that much about the history though. As for Romania and Hungary, you might be interested to know that essentially all Romanian Unitarians are actually ethnic Hungarians living in the mountains in Transylvania. One of the large churches in Cluj-Napoca was originally Unitarian until it was taken by the Catholics when the Unitarians were forced to leave the city. |
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| KSa |
Next set of questions if you don't mind :wink: :
Where and how often do you meet? What are you doing during such meetings/services? Do you pray? Where do you get money from for your upkeep? Thanks in advance. :) |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
My pleasure! :) I'll just mention though that I'm talking primarily about British Unitarians here because that's what I know most about. Things will be done differently elsewhere, even though we are all Unitarians. As a general rule, countries which are more similar to Britain on the whole will have Unitarians that are similar to British Unitarians so by the time you get to India, their practices will be quite different.
We usually meet in Unitarian churches, chapels and meeting houses for about an hour on Sunday, normally in the morning. In cases where there are enough Unitarians to form a congregation but no specific Unitarian building, we often borrow Quaker meeting houses or rooms in colleges etc. When there are just a few Unitarians, we meet in each-other's homes.
Generally speaking, it is quite similar to Protestant Christian services. We usually have an ordained minister (the German Unitarians don't though) or lay-pastor who leads the service and gives a sermon. The service will also include readings, hymns, and collective and silent prayers/meditations. In my church, we say the Lord's Prayer and optionally celebrate Communion once a month, although many Unitarian congregations don't do this.
Some of us would be uncomfortable with the idea of 'praying' and would prefer instead to 'meditate'. I tend to see it as essentially the same sort of thing.
1. Investment in land and other property 2. Large donations from wealthy members 3. Money left by dead people in their will 4. Collections in services 5. Sale of Unitarian books and magazines 6. Fees paid by members of the General Assembly 7. Probably a number of other things I don't know about Essentially, I think that that list above would be similar to that of many larger independent denominations, such as Methodists and Baptists. Any other questions? :) |
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| KSa |
Now some personal questions :wink: . If you find them too personal you don't need to answer. 1.Do you believe in God? (someone can say Im asking nonsense but since youve mentioned that some Unitarians doubt it so I want to make sure) 2.Do you believe God interfere with our life? 3.Do you believe in eternal life? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Yes, but you're right that not all people who consider themselves Unitarians do (some Unitarians would argue that atheists cannot really be Unitarians though). Essentially, I'd agree with all the lines from the hymn which I posted above, except for these two in the second verse: And a being throned above Ruling over us in love. However, I accept that that view of God is perfectly valid for some people.
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. I don't believe that there is an external being that plans my daily life for me, but I accept that I could be wrong.
I believe that we go on living in the minds of those who remember us. I don't believe in a literal Heaven or Hell, if that's what you mean. I suppose I sort of believe in reincarnation somewhat, mainly because I was sort of brought up to believe in it to some extent (a lot of British people seem to believe in reincarnation). However, Unitarians tend not to think too much about what might happen when we die. Instead, we generally view conduct during this life as the most important. Any more? :) |
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| Loic |
I am given to understand that Unitarianism is more of a philosophy than a religion.
But then, religion doesn't necessarily have to incorporate a Higher Being. Football is religion to some and of course, die-hard supporters would argue that football has a pantheon of deities that had achieved legendary statuses. Conclusion: Unitarianism has many overlapping shades of grey with an esoteric and mystical branch of Buddhism. |
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| KSa |
It happened in Medjugorje, a small village in what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina. Needless to say what happened in this very region of Yugoslavia a couple of years later. I'm not saying that the two things have anything in common but it's strange anyway. |
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| KSa |
Regarding reincarnation, this is a concept completely unfamiliar to me taking into account my religious and cultural backround. Whatever reasons lay behind it, I think it's also sort of longing for eternity. |
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| KSa |
I also have this sort of feeling. |
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| Porthos |
Benjamin,
How does your church stand on homosexual marriage and abortion? I recognize Jesus as God's son. I don't believe in the trinity, but I believe that Jesus was sent by his father, God, to fulfill a purpose on earth, which was to sacrifice his life that all men may gain everlasting life, and to preach the news of God's kingdom. I say Jesus was definitely of divine origin, just not God himself. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
In the United States, Unitarians are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage and the denomination often gets involved in campaigns which support its legalisation. In fact, a few years ago two Unitarian ministers in the US were arrested and prosecuted for attempting to marry gay couples. Likewise, I would suspect that Unitarians in the United States would largely take a pro-choice stance on abortion. In Britain, gay marriage and abortion are not such high-profile socio-political issues like they are in the US, so churches often don't really feel the need to take such an obvious stance on them. However, I know that many of our ministers are openly gay. Actually, when I was at the denomination's annual meetings earlier this year, my friends and I were looking at photographs of a trip that some of them (not me) had been on to a conference in the US the previous year. They'd been swimming outside whilst they were there, and there was a picture of a young man that they'd met in his swimming costume. As we were looking at it, one of the (male) ministers came in, saw the picture and said 'wooah, he's fit!' in a Northern Irish accent. I thought that was rather amusing. So, it would appear that the general consensus here would be 'yes' as well. As for abortion here, I'd imagine that a majority of Unitarians would not personally like abortions, but would not wish to ban them or impose that view on others, as we tend to be socially liberal people.
You sound like you could be a 'classical' Unitarian. This is still the main form of Unitarianism in Eastern Europe and India, and was the main form of Unitarianism in Western Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa until about 40 years ago. Unitarian congregations and individual Unitarians of that persuasion definitely still exist in both Britain and the US and there's nothing wrong with that! but they'd definitely be a minority in the US and probably also in Britain today as well. But as they say everyone is a minority within a Unitarian congregation! ;) |
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| Porthos |
Well, then, Unitarians don't view the bible as the foundation of their faith then? The bible is not their guideline? Being totally accepting of gay ministers sounds a little contradictory to the bible. What about the scripture which lists men who lay with men, among other sinners, which also states that they will not inherit God's kingdom? | ||||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
I'll just stress that whenever I talk about 'Unitarians', I am essentially talking about Unitarians in Britain, Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. As I've said, there are quite a lot of Unitarians in Romania, but there a bit different, and I know very little about them so I can't really comment on what their views might typically be.
Simple answer no. Not since the 19th century. However, we do still read the Bible in our services.
1. As I say, a majority of Unitarians today would view that as somewhat irrelevant. 2. The passages which you've mentioned can be interpreted in a number of different ways. Many Biblical scholars do not jump to the same conclusions about these passages as your average Evangelical preacher might. 3. There are openly gay priests in the Church of England anyway, although it is a more controversial issue for them. Of course, like in most denominations, one can sometimes find that there is a gap between those who are heavily involved within the denomination and those who simply attend on Sundays. Our congregations are not filled with gay couples and I'd imagine (for a variety of reasons) that the members of my congregation would actually have mixed attitudes towards gay relationships. A majority of Unitarian ministers here would be prepared to bless same sex unions though, I'm sure. |
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| Porthos |
Well, how is it a Christian religion then, if you don't even care what the bible says anymore? If you don't believe that the bible is God's word, then how do you put faith in something that you don't beleive, or question. Are unitarians of the belief that you are "once saved, always saved", and that our actions or sins do not matter, so long as we ask God for forgiveness? | ||||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
I don't think I actually said that Unitarians were Christians. Our roots lie firmly within Protestant Christianity, but the question of how 'Christian' we actually are now is rather controversial at the moment. There was a survey in the US a few years ago which revealed that only about 10% of Unitarians there considered themselves Christians, and the received wisdom is that the equivalent figure for Unitarians in Britain might be about 50%. In Romania, however, it would be more like 99%.
It isn't so much that we don't care 'what the Bible says'. It's more that we no-longer view the Bible as a source of authority, even though we accept that we can learn a lot from it.
I'm not quite sure that I understand this question. What is the something which you think we put faith in but neither believe in nor question?
I'm afraid that this isn't really applicable. Unitarians don't get 'saved' as such. I tend to think that most of us would not put much emphasis on the afterlife anyway. |
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| Porthos |
What I meant is that the bible is the foundation for the Christian faith. That is where all of christian history is documented. That is where christian teachings originate. If it weren't for the bible, there would be no religious guidelines, no religious structure, and no religious doctrine within Christianity. It's supposed to be the basis of all Christian belief. Simply put, without the bible, there would be no Christianity. I'm glad most unitarians don't identify as Christians, when they don't even regard the bible as a moral authority in most cases. I just don't know how a Christian denomination could evolve to such an extent. I am confused as to what Unitarians actually believe then. Do they just congregate together, and talk about their problems amongst each other in a form of comfort? Do they just encourage others to be good neighbors, and call it a day? Because from what I've heard so far, it seems like there are no established right or wrongs in Unitarianism, nor is there any international standard structure and norms. And there seems to be a lot of disunity within the church on an international level, since you describe such extreme differences in stances on moral issues between unitarians of different countries. It seems to have evolved out of a very liberal philosophy. In fact, it seems like it is just that, a philosophy, and not a religion in the true sense of the word. Somewhat similar to Budhism. | ||||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
All of those above points are debatable, but that's really for another thread. I'll just say that it's important to remember that Christians existed before much of the New Testament was written, and long before what we now call 'The Bible' was compiled.
It seems that you associate 'Christian' very strongly with 'Bible-believing'. Personally, I associate 'Christian' with 'disciple of Christ', which in itself could have many interpretations.
I suppose we just gradually became more and more liberal. Although traditionally a very rationalist and intellectual church, there has recently been a movement towards non-propositional spirituality and even mysticism. You could say similar things about Quakers, at least in Britain.
So are most Unitarians. ;)
Our religion is based upon the principles of Freedom, Reason and Tolerance. We affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person. We have a free and enquiring religion in which people are encouraged to make up their own minds about spiritual and ethical issues, providing that they accept that others will do the same and may not necessarily reach the same conclusions. For us, the ultimate source of authority is the Conscience. Some Unitarians have suggested the following for understanding our faith. Although some Unitarians would be uncomfortable with the terminology used, the essence of it largely applies: Whilst other Protestants often emphasised the priesthood of all believers, we took it a step further and emphasised the prophethood of all believers. That is to say that all of us can be inspired by something greater than ourselves. No individuals represent unique authority within Unitarianism.
I don't think I described 'extreme differences' in moral issues between Unitarians in different countries. But it is important to remember that the various Unitarian groups throughout the world all have their own histories and are in different social contexts. Having said that, most of us are united by the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists, of which the Rev Gordon Oliver from South Africa, former mayor of Cape Town and anti-apartheid campaigner who welcomed Nelson Mandela when he was released from prison, is the president. (I'm meeting him later this month at a conference in Germany).
It has become increasingly liberal over time.
All religions have an underlying philosophy. When we add specific rituals, like building churches, ordaining ministers, singing hymns, praying/meditating and lighting chalice candles, it becomes religion. Let's have a look what dictionary.com has to say: 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 7. religions, Archaic. religious rites. 8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow. I'd say that 6 definitely applies. I'd personally say that 2 and 3 apply as well, although I accept that not everyone would necessarily agree. |
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| Porthos |
Well, I don't want to get in a long endless debate with you Benjamin, but, there is one fundemental flaw in this form of philosophy. Men are imperfect, and sometimes, inherently evil. Our conscience is a trained guide. It can be molded and shaped, it can be strengthened, or it can atrophy, like anything else. You don't use it, you lose it. So for those who are influenced by unfavorable circumstances and surroundings, and who commit terrible acts repeatedly, their conscience graduallys grows numb to what is wrong, until eventually, they feel no remorse in commiting such heinous crimes as murder, or rape. So, if what is right or wrong is left entirely to the viewpoint of an individual, who knows what people would be capable of? The Bible was written for a reason. It is "beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting things straight". It was written aforetime with examples and lessons of right and wrong. The latter half of the bible, the new testament, was completed by Jesus' very apostles, within one lifespan of his death, in the 1st century A.D. And most christians believe that these were divinely inspired. It doesn't take a great leap of faith to believe that the new testament was of divine origin, if one already believes that Jesus was of divine origin, and therefore that his teachings were also. Under your philosophy, I can go out and rape girls, kill some people for their trendy shoes, and live a life of debauchery, all without consequences, simply because I am my own judge of right and wrong. There is a problem with such a belief. But by removing the bible (God's message to mankind), in one swift act, you have erased all accountability to God and his laws. That's what it all boils down to. The vast majority of people, do not want to be accountable for their actions. They want to be able to do whatever they want, and still feel like they have a positive relationship with God. | ||||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
Imperfect, yes. I understand that the idea that people are 'inherently evil' is taught by some Christian groups, although that is not a view which I can accept, as the belief that humans are hopelessly doomed would not 'affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person'.
It is certainly true that one's behaviour can be influenced by one's surroundings. However, we could argue endlessly to what extent we actually behave according to our 'Conscience'. But I probably didn't make myself entirely clear. The notion of the Conscience alone as the ultimate authority applies mainly to matters of theology. For ethical issues and behaviour, we tend to go by what we believe 'affirms and promotes the inherent worth and dignity of every person'. Which in itself is ultimately decided by the Conscience, but then again, so is someone's decision to ascribe authority to a sacred text such as the Bible.
I know. I fully accept that the Bible is an amazing collection of documents, which are definitely worth reading.
I would definitely agree that much of the Bible is divinely inspired.
No, because it wouldn't affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person.
I think that the reason why you have this opinion is because you seem to be of the view that traditional Christianity is the default mode for all people. I would argue that wanting to 'escape accountability to God's laws' is an entirely irrelevant (and also rather bizarre) concept for Unitarians. |
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| Porthos |
Born again Christians have this, once saved always saved outlook, whereby they can do whatever they want, so long as they pray and ask God for forgiveness. I don't believe you can have your cake and eat it too. Catholics go to confession, say a few hail marys and our fathers and call it a day. A lot of mainstream Christians feel that way about accountability. It just seems that Unitarians have taken it one step further. | ||||||||||||||||
| Shouga |
Would you say that Unitarianism is, in general, more about learning how to live in this world and how to be a good person, rather than concentrating on what there is beyond this world and how the world is created? Do you think that you place more importance in the acceptance of all faiths than on professing to believe a single faith? If so, could you really conclude that Unitarianism is, in fact, a religion, and not just an ethical system to determine a way of living, much in the same way that something such as Confucianism was in ancient China? | ||||||||||||||||
| Benjamin [inactive] |
To some extent, yes. There is no one accepted 'Unitarian view' of the nature of God(s) or how the universe came to being, and although many Unitarians would have some sort of individual opinion on this, they would accept that there is quite a high possibility that they were wrong. Equally, we tend to place most importance on conduct during life, and tend not to focus on what might happen when we die at all. I suspect that a majority of us would generally take the view that death is probably the end of our lives.
We are committed to the values of the Unitarian movement, although you're right that we'd place more importance on the acceptance of many different religious beliefs, rather than encouraging people to subscribe to specific religious ideas.
I tend to think of Unitarianism as a way of being religious without being pressured by others to accept anything as the absolute truth simply because they say it is. |
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