What European countries have the best football teams?

Porthos · What European countries have the best football teams?

As an American, I don't know much about football (soccer). What are some of the leading national teams? And for those of you who are big football fans, could you rank the top teams in order of best to worst? Of course, I expect the unforunate but unavoidable personal biases.

Loic

There is no need to have our personal preferences mixed up in the rankings for FIFA provide us with a monthly update with respect to where a country stands.

Here are the top 20 rankings as of October 2006:

1. Brazil
2. Italy
3. France
4. Argentina
5. England
6. Germany
7. Netherlands
8. Czech Republic
9. Portugal
10. Spain
11. Nigeria
12. Camerouen
13. Ukraine
14. Greece
15. Switzerland
16. Sweden
17. Uruguay
18. Cote d'Ivoire
19. Mexico and Croatia

The newer system of ranking is deemed to be fairer as it takes into account the relative strength of the opposing team when it comes to international matches. Under the old system where a win against say, Wales is almost as valuable as victory against Brazil, countries which regularly play against vastly inferior teams stand to gain plenty of points and rise up the table.

In fact, the USA were ranked 5th prior to the start of the World Cup in June. They are now out of the top 20.

Sander

Porthos

As an American, who is not all that interested in soccer, but occasionally watches international competitions, I usually root for the following Euro teams, in order.
Spain/Wales
Ireland
England
Italy
Portugal

And then, after that, I really don't care. The top pick is basically just because that is where my ancestors are from. Sounds korny and sentimental, I know, but that's just me.

Loic

Spain are perennial under-performers at the world stage. Many pundits tipped Spain to go all the way this summer, but they fell at the knock-out stage to France. These same pundits are now beginning to wildly speculate that it is the fractious identity of Spain that is at the root of their trouble. Split Spain into different home countries à la the United Kingdom, the regionalists exhort.

So in the (unlikely) event that Spain devolves into Catalonia, Castille, Galicia, Andalusia, etc in world football, you have to actually sit down and choose a Spanish team to support now.

This means more homework for you to do - which part of Spain did your forebears actually hail from?

Porthos

Exactly. That would require effort, something I'm not willing to do.

fab

It not by chauvinism, but I'll say France. Even if we lost to Italy in the final of the world cup we played better.

fab

It not by chauvinism, but I'll say France. Even if we lost to Italy in the final of the world cup we played better. after I'll say Italy and Germany.

Loic

Which club do you support, Fab? Is it PSG?

fab

I don't support any club, since I'm not a big Football fan. I only follow the big events such as Euro and world cup.

Irrintzi

The best club is the Olympique de Marseille!
Allez l'OM!!

Akoni

Icke

Pauline

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Klasse !!

Shouga

Akoni

hehe

Liz

What European countries have the best football teams?

Not Hungary for sure.

Not any more.

Loic

I know quite a bit of Hungarian football's illustrious history and their dominance of the game especially in the 50s. It is a pity that you don't see them much in the World Cup or the European games nowadays - how the mighty have fallen.

The only Hungarian footballer I know is Ferenc Puskás and he played for Real Madrid! Is he something of a sporting icon in Hungary?

And Liz, do you support any German club since you are now based in Germany? Do you know that Franck Ribery is poised to join Bayern Munich for the next season?

I suppose Irrintz would mourn that decision since Ribery is currently at Marseille.

Loic

I know it's a bit spastic to extend my congratulations at such a late hour, but just in case you still don't know, AC Milan have won their 7th European Cup title on Wednesday evening at Athens.

I hope I wasn't the only bloke in this forum to have watched the showdown between Liverpool and Milan. Even for those who didn't watch the match in its entire 93 minutes (that includes extra time), you must have watched the highlights. Pippo Inzaghi deflecting a free kick off Pirlo that wrong-footed Pepe Reina. Kaka releasing Inzaghi from the offside trap who calmly slotted the ball past the body of the dispairing Reina.

For a man whom Sir Alex Fergueson once sniffily dismissed as "being born offside", Filippo Inzaghi did his job very well by poaching chances when they should not even had been there.

For those who remembered the final in the sultry night of Istanbul two years ago, it was the same clash but with a different outcome. In 2005, AC Milan were 3-0 up by half-time but Liverpool clawed back to a 3-3 draw in a space of 6 minutes before winning the Champions League in a penalty shootout. Jerzy Dudek was the hero of Istanbul that night when he famously saved the penalty kick of Shevchenko.

But alas, miracles do not happen twice and I am awfully glad that the Spanish-English outfit that is Liverpool would return back to Merseyside emptyhanded.

Forza Milan!

I am rich
I am handsome
I am the playmaker
I am Kaka

Liz

Deborah

Liz

Liz

Loic

Lol. I didn't kaka is a form of mild expletive in Hungarian.

In Malay, Kaka means sister. But well, since Malay is far from being my mother tongue, I never make such an association whenever I see him.

Do you admire him? I must admit that I am fairly indifferent to the Brazilian playmaker. The reason why I came up with that little ditty was a reflection of one of my (female) friend's opinion towards him. Whenever Kaka loses possession of the ball (pretty rare occurrence, by the way), she'd gush dreamily, 'Oh, don't worry! You're handsome.'

Of course, she had no such sympathy for Gattuso, the AC Milan winger. But she'd contradict herself by going on to state that AC Milan has the 'most handsome starting XI' in the world.

Maybe. But that's not what football is all about, isn't it? If that is so, where would the likes of Wayne Rooney stand?

Liz

Loic

According to a wholly unscientific observation, these footballers seem to be highly fancied by their female spectators. Of course, they are not purely glamour boys with long eyelashes, the male Anna Kournikovas of football. But one does get the impression that their popularity off the pitch is not commensurate with their abilities on the pitch.

1. David Beckham. Rumours have it that he's on the Queen's Honours List and who knows, the hallowed words of 'Arise, Sir David' might soon be uttered by the Queen herself.

2. Cristiano Ronaldo. I personally despise him. A show-pony and nothing more. But a very talented show-pony, I must admit.

3. Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite aka Kaká. Attacking midfielder. King playmaker. Indispensable to AC Milan. A jewel in the glittering crown of the Brazilian squad.

4. Nakata. Has hung up his boots since the last world cup. I don't really understand the attraction, but he does tend to dress in a very sharp manner. But if you consider that he spent a good bit of his footballing career with AS Roma, you might understand where his fashion sense came from.

5. Raul Gonzalez. Iconic captain of Real Madrid. Now, I can really understand why this bloke is an immensely popular figure. Girls are always gushing on how he kisses his wedding ring after scoring a goal. Awww...how sickeningly sweet.

Loic

But to me, they are the eternal heroes who would never die.

1. Zidane

2. Luis Figo

3. Robbie Fowler. Ok, so he's not exactly in the same league as the above two. But when I first started following English football at 9, he had just made his debut for Liverpool. Over the years, his reputation at Anfield has ensured that he remains 'The God' to his most ardent supporters.

And yes, I tentatively started out supporting Liverpool. I later switched allegiances, but my loyalty to Fowler has never wavered.

Liz

Wow Loic! You might as well work for those women's glossy magazines. You write rather passionately about womanisers disguised as footballers.

Your style verges on irony, which is typical of the aforementioned magazines, too. However, I think they do mean what they write, so what they write is plain kitsch as opposed to your descriptions, which clearly involve irony, I reckon.

Yes, you're right...these guys are immensely popular with women in general. I racked my brain but I couldn't really find a women's idol Hungarian footballer. However, we must have some despite our lack of football culture nowadays. But, in fact, here women tend to idolise the guys mentioned by you.

As for David Beckham, HE IS A TRAITOR!!!

Leaving Manchester United to its own devices, eh?

A music teacher in our English partner school was crazy about David Beckham. We once visited the MU stadium and we had the chance of spending some time in the dressing room as well. Of course, we couldn't take a deep breath of the sweet fragrance of perspiration left behind by those modern knights, to the greatest disappointment of many girls. One classmate of mine took a sit on the same bank where the divine David used to get rid of his seemingly superfluous clothes. When we were informed on that, the teacher (female, of course) screamed with exultation: "Don't wash your jeans anymore!" Being an ardent MU supporter, she must be rather dissapointed by Beckham now. Or has she been just a Beckham fan and is now supporting Real Madrid?

I don't know but I find this exaggerated enthusiasm sort of pathetic...

Loic

David Beckham is immensely popular in Asia and his star has yet to wane despite a noticeabe lose of speed on the pitch. Every serious football pundit (read: every other male, in other words) can tell you that Beckham is a vastly overrated footballer and it is a testimony to the superb marketing efforts of his agent that Brand Beckham is so enduring today.

Actually, Beckham is not quite a Judas. He was compelled to leave Old Trafford under inauspicious circumstances (Remember the 'Flying Boot' incident?). Sir Alex Fergueson started to take a dim view of his off pitch activities and feared that his glamorous lifestyle would soon take a toll on team morale. He promptly shipped him off to Spain at the earliest available opportunity. The original deal was for Man Utd to sell him to Barcelona; Joan Laporta, Barca's presidential candidate at that time actually made the purchase of Beckham the central theme of his campaign.

Beckham demurred and opted for Real Madrid. A spurned Barca snapped up Ronaldinho from PSG instead. The rest, as they say, is history. Real Madrid has endured one of their worst slumps in history while their Catalan rivals have won the last two Spanish league titles as well as the Champions League last season.

I wouldn't really fancy myself working for women's magazines unless I get to be the editor and I am surrounded by a bevy of women with hair as glossy as the coverpage of the magazines. I'd really love to work for the print equivalent of soccernet or cricinfo, the Internet bibles of football and cricket respectively. Imagine being asked to work for Wisden, even as a tea boy - I'd jump at such a prospect without being asked!

By the way, if there is anything I hate more than Chelsea, it is Manchester United. But I envy you nonetheless for having visited the Theatre of Dreams!

Since you're based in Germany now, what do you think of their golden boy Michael Ballack? Unfortunately, he isn't doing as well as he'd hoped at Chelsea.

Liz

Loic

Not to be unkind, but what do German women think of Oliver Kahn? Personally, I think he looks rather terrifying between the posts and any striker would have second thoughts about getting the ball past him, surely.

Liz

Loic

Deborah

Liz

Liz

Loic

I'm 23.

Well, do you also play table-tennis? There was a short phase in secondary school when I was crazy over table-tennis but my interest spluttered to a halt when I left school. It's really cool that your father played table tennis professionally.

Akido is something like Japanese fencing, isn't it? Isn't that a rather esoteric sport for a European?

So what games do you play? Personally, I like watching sports as much as playing - by watching the professionals, I sometimes get inspired to copy their moves.....to varying degrees of failure.

Currently, my attention is strictly focussed on the third Test between the West Indies and England (Did your years in England teach you anything about cricket?) as well as the French Open. Looks like another consecutive showdown between Federer and Nadal.

Liz

Deborah

Liz

Deborah

Liz

Loic

Liz:

So you probably know who's Peter Gade Christensen. You're awfully sporty, Liz. Remind me to never play badminton with you then. The last time I played badminton was when I was in primary school.

Badminton is the de facto sport here although its popularity has waned in recent years. We used to be very good although I must add that our heydays were really only during the colonial times when we had shuttlers who were able to challenge for the likes of the Thomas Cup as well as the All England.

But since you are intimately connected with the sport, do you know Taufik Hidayat? I really adore his drop shot as well as his backhand smash. Singapore hosts the Aviva Open every year and I had the opportunity to watch him duel against top seed Lin Dan and the match was as exciting as any popular football derby.

I probably didn't play as many sports as you did. Honestly speaking, I am only confident in one sport and that is squash. I fully expect to be utterly humiliated in every other sport I dabble in - tennis, golf, cricket, football, table-tennis. Like you, I am not a good short-distance hurtler but I tend to do rather well for the middle distance range (2 to 5 km) as it was my speciality in the army. Every year, we have a physical fitness test for soldiers and reservists alike in which we have to run 2.4 km as part of the test. I was pretty decent running 2.4 km back then if you wish to consider recreational running as a sort of sport. A gold timing obliges the runner to clock a timing below 9 min 45 seconds.

As for cricket's popularity in Singapore, a cursory glance at the ICC League rankings paints a fuller picture: Singapore is only ranked 30th in the world. I do not attribute the derisory ranking to a paucity of talent but rather a dearth of involvement at the grassroots level. Most cricketers here are club players and none of them are professionals. I was involved in the sport only in secondary school. Cricket is really seen as an "Indian" sport here and the more racist amongst us would not want to be seen playing this sport.

So it is really laughable when you associate cricket with middle-upper classes. In the Indian subcontinent, cricket is played everywhere. I like to relate a story of how my friend went to Mumbai for a varsity tennis competition. He was in a taxi and there was a massive jam. He asked the taxi driver about the cause of the jam and was enlightened when he replied that some boys were playing cricket in the middle of a road ahead and that was hence the reason for the gridlock.

Apart from the Indian subcontinent, cricket is also played by virtually everyone in the English-speaking Carribean. It is basically the only sport which they are good at on the international stage but petty internecine strife between the West Indian islands have resulted in a drastic decline in standards.

In Sri Lanka, the leader of the breakaway terrorist outfit, the Tamil Tigers, postponed his aeroplane raid on the seaside capital of Colombo on the eve of the cricket world cup final because he is renowned to be cricket mad.

In Australia, cricket is actually the most popular sport of choice. However, I'd say Aussie Rules football continues to define the Australian character because it is an indigeneous sport after all and almost everyone in Australia seems to have a favourite rugby or Aussie rules football club to support. Association Rules football is making inroads in Australia much to the disquiet of fans of the other football codes. Not too long ago, soccer was actually seen by many Australians as a sport for Sheilas, Wogs and Pooftas (women, European immigrants and homosexuals in Australian speak).

In NZ, cricket is the national summer sport. I am always hence constantly bemused whenever people continue to make this erroneous association of cricket as a snobbish sort of sport with highfalutin notions of fair play and gentlemanly behaviour. All very commendable indeed, but the belief that cricket is character building is only alive in the public schools all over the world modelled after the English ones. Outside of this exalted realm, it is win at all cost.

My cricket channel in Singapore is basically an Indian channel and if you were to ever watch their advertisements, you'd realise how cricket mad that country is. Many advertisements employ cricketing themes: there was a 7Up advert in which a boy frustratedly practises his tennis backhand in vain before a 7Up mascot popped out from nowhere to hand him a cricket bat.

Or a ridiculous one by Visa about Sachin Tendulkar batting with the Visa logo emblazoned on each ball.

Due to the Indian influx (the percentage of Indians in Singapore have crept up from the traditional 7% to 10% in recent years), the sport is receiving a massive fillip. The SCA (Singapore Cricket Association) aims to have our country be a Test playing nation by 2020. I am awaiting this day with bated breath.

By the way, cricket is not really a middle-class pursuit in Yorkshire. I've read the autobiography of Ian Botham, an England all-rounder from the 80s, and he wrote that cricket is as much working class in the North as rugby league and football.

Liz

Loic

I think you're self-deprecating, Liz. You might not be as fast as lightning but you would still have possessed all the neccessary attributes such as a quick reaction, superb eye-hand co-ordination, agility, nimbleness and a fair bit of switness in order to succeed at badminton.

Speaking of badminton, the sport has undergone a seachange as far as the scoring system is concerned. I remembered that it used to be server's point back when I was in primary school and matches meander interminably till 15 points. You do not watch much badminton, I take it? Taufik Hidayat is the top shuttler for Indonesia and as you are probably aware, the world powerhouses in the sport are Indonesia, China and to a lesser extent, India and Malaysia.

That is why I mentioned Peter Gade Christensen in my opening sentence. For so long, he has been the only European to successfully challenge for top honours. I remember his blonde fiancee as well who also happens to be a badminton player. A very good looking couple, if you ask me.

Playing badminton burns a lot of calories in an hour. It is a lot like squash, I suppose. Of course, there are as many differences as there are similarities. Have you tried squash, by the way? I know squash is a fairly Commonwealth sport, but if you had dabbled with badminton, you must surely have heard of squash.

I apologise if I had been a bit aggressive in defending the plebeian nature of cricket. I merely wanted to demonstrate why the notion of cricket being all about the refined sound of leather against willow is out-of-date. However, some vestiges of the earlier Victorian ethos continue to survive in the sport. For example, a player who swears in the vicinity of an umpire does so on pain of a fine. Players do not dispute the decisions of umpires even if the umpires, who are mostly old fat men anyway, are mistaken. This is totally different from football where enraged players sometimes gather around the referee in a bid to rough him up.

As for the allegedly snobbish nature of golf, I think this must be a European thing. Golf must be expensive in Europe. Over here, it is not. I am not going so far as to say golf is dirt cheap in Singapore, but let's just say that it is a myth that one needs thousands of dollars to play the sport. I seldom go to the golf course, preferring to perfect my shots in the driving range. When I do play on the course, I'd choose off-peak hours where demand for tee time is not as ferocious. Besides, I have a tendency to melt down whenever I am teeing off in front of strangers. Playing before others always seem to bring out the worst in me.

Maybe the only 'snobbish' aspect of golf is the sport's strict adherence to correct attire. However, I've played golf in bermudas before so I do not think the dress code is very severe. The club managers are just obsessed with a collar t-shirt; they are allergic to t-shirts, it seems.

I still remember one particularly memorable golfing experience. I chose an executive golf course which was definitely cheaper for me. I sliced the ball into the trees adjacent to the rough and a monkey actually scampered across the fairway moments later with my ball in its hands.

Suffice to say, I took a mulligan, meaning I teed off again without a penalty stroke.

Liz

Deborah

Loic

Unfortunately, that course is infested with our simian cousins. They are not even scared of golf balls. Nor would they shriek from them even if you were to shout 'Fore!' as manly as possible.

Liz, I am not too sure about badminton channels. Over here, they are shown on terrestrial channels and they are often given a delayed telecast past the witching hour. Badminton can be a little monotoneous if the quality of play on offer is uninspiring. Watching women's badminton used to be a pain in the neck, but the prospects are looking much brighter especially since they have started wearing cute skirts and tighter tops.

As for golfing attire, I think many golfers are actually quite boring in their fashion sense. No sartorical value at all. There are a few snappy dressers on the PGA tour, but most simply stick to the boring polo shirt-trousers routine. Here is one golfer I used to lionise because I thought he looks so cool with shades:

Former world number 1, David Duval. Nowadays, he actually struggles to make the cut in the more prominent Opens but still gets invited to Masters by virtue of his former greatness.

As you have noticed, he dresses in drab liveless colours. Most male golfers are very uncreative in the wardrobe department - displaying their sponsor logos are more important than power dressing.

I would like all golfers to rever back to the dressing of yore:

This is Harry Vardon whose eponymous grip is my grip of choice. By the way, I doubt the likes of Jim Furyk, Phil Mikelson or Tiger Woods are going to make a creditable challenge for any Opens or Masters if they were to dress like that.

Needless to say, golf is not the sport to play if you want to look preppy. Golf somehow makes you look patrician irrespective of your age.

Play tennis instead!

Damn! Why does my cricket sweater not fit me as snugly as that? Courtesy of Ralph Polo Lauren, by the way.

Yelina

Damn! Why does my cricket sweater not fit me as snugly as that? Courtesy of Ralph Polo Lauren, by the way.[/quote]
That's right! It'd be interesting to see you in such a sweater. Or well, just if it could fit you as well as it fits this model!

Liz

Loic

Liz:

I beg to differ, really. Tennis has very attractive attire if the players respect the spirit of the game. No Rafeal Nadal style singlets for me. More Andy Roddick Lacoste polo shirts, please.

Besides, women's tennis is the only women sport I watch for obvious reasons!

In the early 2000s, an English squash player proposed this as the new attire for women:

Miss Vicky Botwright had her request turned down by the reactionary squash association, much to my dismay!

As for golfing attire, I think Jesper Parvenik has an innate sense of style - or has a girlfriend who tells him what to wear.

Liz

LOIC:

You are right...generally, they have very attractive attire. Only some of the guys look like metrosexuals.

However, I've never been enthusiastic about Lacoste poloshirts with a lizard on them.

Okay, it's a crocodile...

The new attire proposed for female squash players would do just fine if a new branch of squash were proposed, too: water quash! I'd propose speedos for male squash players:

I have a better idea, though...what about G-Strings? Wearing them is not only our privilege, as shown in this picture:

As for Jesper Parvenik, I think I'd go for your second alternative...a girlfriend who has got taste among many other positive qualities always comes in handy...not just in the figurative sense.

By the way, hasn't he got a stylist? You didn't list this option, did you?

Loic

Goodness! Male squash players would be hounded into extinction the moment they step inside the courts wearing that tiny piece of garment. Besides, we are also painfully alive to the existence of nationwide scrutiny the moment Wispa (the international squash body) mandates such attire for all players.

But for female squash players, it is different! Haha. I cannot say why the same rules do not apply. I'd just like to reiterate my disappointment when Vicky Botwright's request to play in a thong was turned down. In fact, I was ribbing my female squash mates about the possibility of having to turn out for competition in that attire and it thrilled me to no end to listen to their lame excuses of how they would wear no such thing - at least, in public.

Liz

Well, Loic, if you have anything against those tiny pieces of clothing, what about reviving old trends? One piece swimsuits for men, too:

Loic

Not too bad. Very Roaring 20s!

But a bit of Edwardian chic would not be too bad either.

The famous Eton suit

Liz

Oh Dear...we are going to descend (LOL!) or ascend (?) into a fashion thread...

Edwardian chic is very elegant, I feel. However, those cylinders come accross as slightly comical through my "21st century modernised, deprived of the last vestiges of aesthetic flair" eyes. The guy in the middle seems to be too young to wear such a hat.

Let's not carry on with our conversation within the narrow confines of tennis attire. Here is a nice picture of a pretty woman from the Victorian era, playing golf:

Although this woman is undoubtedly well-dressed, I don't think male adorers of women's golf (if there is such a thing) would be particularly overjoyed to see those ladies in clothes like this. All the interesting and exciting parts of her body is covered, to the greatest disappointment of male viewers who have a burning desire for seeing those women in a swimsuit. C'est la vie.

Loic

I suppose our merry diversion into fashion is inevitable, given that there is only so much we can talk about national football teams from Europe.

Speaking of football, have you read about Thierry Henry moving to Barcelona? What a shock. My heart skipped a beat when I read it. But maybe it would not be a catastrophe for all Gunners out there. Our future lies in Arsene Wenger and Cesc Fabregas and while I would love to see our captain serving out his final years at the Emirates, it is received wisdom that our former linchpin has left his best years behind.

I was skimming the sport pages today and I saw a few photos from the Royal Ascot which instantly made me think of this thread, seeing how we have been discussing about the merits and demerits of being dressed to please in a sport.

I would not say that the jockeys are at the epitome of sartorial elegance. I think the horses are more majestic than their lilliputian riders. But the trouble which all the guests take to getting into the spirit of the occasion simply blows me away.

It seems that a morning frock and a top hat are de riguer for men, especially if they are visiting the Royal Enclosure.

By the way, that lady dresses like a tart. A high-class callgirl, maybe.

PS: I hope she is not some obscure duchess here whom I have inadvertently offended. But I doubt it.

Liz

Like an inappropriately dressed bride!

She reminds me of Tara Palmer-Tomkinson. She (in the picture) isn't as skinny as her but just as much as vulgar. I guess she isn't a high class call-girl but some obscure duchess whom you have inadvertently offended. Are you sure you were to use the word "inadvertently" in this context? LOL!

Nowadays you can't really tell a duchess from a tart...Sloane Ranger style...Yuck.

PS: A tart can be very delicious...a strawberry tart, for instance.

Pauline

She is a like too fat bride, and her dress is too small so she must cut it

Liz

Pauline

Liz,

Can you visit the hidden adult thread here? i discovered that it exist, but until today I didn't know. I fidn it very nasty and unjust, as it's possible to tell that you're 18 also when you're 15, but I was honest.

If i tell them for example I'm 20, how they knwo I'm not?

Liz

Pauline

It's absolutly nasty to have some secret, hiddne threads where some poepl can visit but the other people don't knwo abotu them.

Pauline

Porhtos isn't 18 but he can vsiit there.

Liz

Yelina

I thought he was 18 or 19.

Don't be disappointed Pauline, this hidden thread may not please you as we talk about things young people would consider as disgusting!

Pauline

He's 17 I think.

How you knwo what i consider as disgusting?

Liz

Pauline

You deliberatly change the subject.

Who other can't vsiit the hidden threads as well? Lazar and David? I think that they're younger than 18.

Liz

Pauline

How can you find it? I don't knwo much about computers or technical things like hacking or how you can find hidden things. I wil ask Tiorthan.

Yelina

Pauline

So about 2 or 3 years of age are such a difference? Why it's hidden? It can be for exmaple on the list but you can read it only when you're 18 or older. I don't like things what are deliberatly secret and hidden.

Anyway now I will make some nice labels fr the jam I've amde with the reaspberries from my gardn. Goodbye.

Palomino

I'm 35 (horse's years)