What languages that you do not speak, can you understand best?
If Scots is to be considered a foreign language, then I would say I understand it best, along with Italian. I'm speaking of spoken language of course, for if we include written language, then Scots is clearly on top, with Portuguese at a close second.
Liz
Re: What languages can you understand best?
Porthos wrote:
What languages that you do not speak, can you understand best?
If Scots is to be considered a foreign language, then I would say I understand it best, along with Italian. I'm speaking of spoken language of course, for if we include written language, then Scots is clearly on top, with Portuguese at a close second.
You mean Edinburghspeak or Glasgowspeak? Or Scottish Gaelic????
To me it's French. There are serious problems with my productive abilities, that is, I can't really speak or write. But I can understand it quite well, even better when reading. Once I was mailing with a guy back and forth - he wrote everything in French and I answered in German. He speaks German as well (as he has been living here for three years) and wasn't annoyed at all.
Deborah
I don't quite get the question, because I'm not sure what you mean by "languages that you do not speak". Do you mean languages that you don't speak fluently, or languages that you've never studied?
Porthos
Deborah wrote:
I don't quite get the question, because I'm not sure what you mean by "languages that you do not speak". Do you mean languages that you don't speak fluently, or languages that you've never studied?
Both. A language you don't speak and have never studied. So, knowing a few words and a couple of phrases does not mean you speak the language, in the sense that I'm using.
Deborah
Ah. I thought you might also have meant that only speaking a language at an intermediate level might not be considered speaking it.
In that case, since I don't speak any language other than English fluently and still have some problems understanding spoken Spanish, even though that's the foreign language I understand best, I suppose Portuguese would be the language that I don't speak at all, but understand best. Of course, I understand almost nothing, but I can make out words here and there.
Liz
Then I should retract what I said...it's not exactly true that I've never learnt French.
Pauline
Written because i didn't hear (all) them:
walloon, occitan, catalan, quebec, etc.... italian, portuguese, frisian, afrikaans, luxemburgisch, maybe others - I will add them if I will think of some more
Liz
I might add Dutch to my list, too.
André in Zuid-Afrika
Liz wrote:
I might add Dutch to my list, too.
In which case you could add Afrikaans too.
In welke geval jy ook Afrikaans kan byvoeg.
Porthos
Quote:
I suppose Portuguese would be the language that I don't speak at all, but understand best. Of course, I understand almost nothing, but I can make out words here and there.
This is so true. As close as Portuguese is to Spanish, due its rich phonology, I can hardly understand a word or two in spoken conversation. Although Spanish is much closer to Portuguese in terms of lexicon, I can understand a lot more spoken Italian than I can Portuguese, but when written, Portuguese is the clear winner.
fab
If you mean major national languages I will say standard Italian (maybe other Italian forms but I never really had the occasion to hear them)
If we include regional language, I will say Occitan languages, which are almost complelty intelliglble without effort for a french speaker.
all other groups outside romance langue are like chinese for me. Said that I must say English can help me quite much to understand basic things in germanic languages, but it is not "direct", since I should think using a language (english) which I don't master well and with which I must think to express myself.
Daniel
Being a native British Sign Language user, I must say I understand Spanish Sign Language best even though I've never learned it. They both are distantly related.
Australian and New Zealand Sign Languages are about 95% mutually intelligible with BSL. So much so that they all are considered dialects of the same language. I understand Deaf Australians and New Zealanders with very little difficulties, although because of a significant difference in vocabulary confusions and misunderstandings can still arise! For example, the sign for "coca cola" in Australia is the same sign meaning "sexual intercourse" here in the UK. A British friend of mine was once asked "Would you like a shag?" (supposed to be "Would you like some coke?") by an Australian, shocked, he replied "But I've only just met you!!"
Loic
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A British friend of mine was once asked "Would you like a shag?" (supposed to be "Would you like some coke?") by an Australian, shocked, he replied "But I've only just met you!!"
One of those messages that were lost in translation!
In reply to Porthos's question, I must say that I cannot understand any language which I was not exposed to. Maybe I'd understand snatches of Hakka because of similarities with Cantonese and Mandarin. Maybe not.
If you are talking about the reading aspect, I'd have to plumb for Dutch. But then again, I once tried to learnt it in an abortive attempt that lasted three months. So it doesn't really count.
Maybe Japanese would be a good candidate as long as they are using kanji. Kanji is simply Chinese characters with minor variations. When I was in Japan, the fact that they mostly use kanji on public signs was very helpful for me.
Of course, as Uriel can attest, most public signs are also written in English.
David
Scots, Dutch, Frisian.
Irrintzi
Occitan, Catalan, Aragonese, Asturian, Galician, Italian, Corsican, Portuguese.
Maybe Frisian, Romanian, Caucasian languages and Scot.
Didier69
I think the language which I don't speak and understand the best is Catalan. But it's difficult to choose because I speak Swedish I understand much in Norwegian bokmål.
Travis
The language I do not speak which I understand the best is German. I can write German with some effort if I have a suitable (preferably web) dictionary on hand, but I cannot speak anything beyond very basic German, so I do not say that I can really speak German. Similarly, I can generally get the gist or at least general topic of much written German by glancing over it, even if I have no dictionary on hand, and can understand bits and pieces of spoken German. However, I cannot read German without a dictionary or understand spoken German well enough to claim that I can truly read or listen to German.
André in Zuid-Afrika
I can read some German (with great difficulty), and of course understand written and spoken Dutch (if spoken slowly...)
BTW, good to see you back, Travis!
Elaine
Portuguese, when spoken by Brazilians, sounds fairly comprehensible to me. Even less so with European Portuguese.
Since I studied French in high school (but not good enough to claim I speak it), I can somewhat understand it, but only minimally.
I can usually make out written Portuguese, French, Italian, Catalan, and Occitan, and whatever other Romance languages you throw my way.
Of the Germanic languages, none of them seem intelligible to me when spoken. I can somewhat decipher German, Dutch, and Afrikaans when written.
Swede33
I can fairly understand french, german and finnish.
Have studied the first two so maybe that´s cheating but I wasn´t any good in french, so I took german instead in highschool to improve my grades.
This was a tactic from me which I regret today.
Would really have liked being able to speak french.
Another language I understand fully that I havent´t studied is, Norwegian.
This because I´m from Sweden and this language is merely a swedish dialect.
Benjamin [inactive]
Swede33 wrote:
Another language I understand fully that I havent´t studied is, Norwegian.
This because I´m from Sweden and this language is merely a swedish dialect.
Ooouh-er.
I think what you mean is that both Swedish and Norwegian (and Danish) are part of the Scandinavian dialect continuum. So if you described Norwegian as a 'Swedish dialect', then you might as well also call Swedish a 'Norwegian dialect'.
Swede33
You´re maybe right about that, but since swedish is the "head" language in Scandinavia I call norwegian and danish dialect of swedish.
But who knows, maybe swedish is a dialect of the languages above.
Ta for your comment by the way.
Regards to you. Pat xx
Benjamin [inactive]
Swede33 wrote:
You´re maybe right about that, but since swedish is the "head" language in Scandinavia I call norwegian and danish dialect of swedish.
Well that's certainly a new one on me. What do you think people from Norway or Denmark would say to that?
Swede33
They wouldn´t like it believe me
Walker
I don't think of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish as dialects of one and the same language. Despite their similarities they are different languages. That's how they're classified.
KSa
The languages I've never learnt but can understand most (when spoken slowly) are:
Slovakian
Czech
Ukrainian
Bashar
I can understand other languages a lot easier when reading than when listening. Especially if it's something I learned mostly on my own. Spanish and Arabic (as long as it's Modern Standard Arabic) I can understand well enough when I'm actually listening.
Tiffany
English <- that one's obvious.
Followed by Italian and then Spanish. I can usually read French by calling upon my knowledge of Italian and Spanish.
Deborah
Tiffany! Long time no see -- welcome back. (Or have you been back for awhile and I just haven't noticed until now?)
Tiffany
Nothing gets past you Deborah. I literally JUST posted ;) Thanks, it's good to see you're still here. Email from Andre did me in.
But seriously, Josh, a MODERATOR?! DAMN. (J/K Josh)
Loic
I once had the opportunity to hear Chtmi being spoken by two fifty something year old men in Tourcoing and I must say that I could understand snatches of it. Initially, I even thought that they were speaking French with a rustic provincial accent before my friend -a mate doing his classe prepa in Lille - told me otherwise.
This was the only French Romance language I encountered. I wish I had the chance to hear Nissart or Mentonais, but never did. Breton was miles away from standard French and what little I heard was naturally a complete mystery to me.
fab
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I wish I had the chance to hear Nissart or Mentonais, but never did.
no surprise, almost no people speak them. I've been living years in that region and never have heard nobody speaking them. The only opportunity I had to hear occitan (not nissart or mentonese) is on the local france3 TV in a little daily news program.
Said that you can often see nissart writted in street names in the old Nice - but that more a folkloric thing than a real linguitic fact.
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Breton was miles away from standard French and what little I heard was naturally a complete mystery to me.
Breton is a total mystery for everyone non-breton speaking french people since it part of a complete different linguistic group. For me, even if I have some Breton ancestors it is like chinese...
Benjamin [inactive]
Breton is a Brythonic language, most closely related to Welsh and Cornish. The Brythonic languages form one of the two main living branches of the Celtic language family — the other is the Goidelic languages, which includes Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Manx. However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
Loic
Well, I did pick up a few Breton words like "kenavo" for hello or goodbye as well as "mad" which more or less corresponds to "bien" in French.
Since we're on the subject of languages which we are most able to understand without formal schooling, I'd like to know if Fab has ever heard picard spoken when he is in Picardy and whether he is able to fully understand a conversation conducted either in picard or cht'mi.
Benjamin wrote:
Breton is a Brythonic language, most closely related to Welsh and Cornish. The Brythonic languages form one of the two main living branches of the Celtic language family — the other is the Goidelic languages, which includes Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Manx. However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
I have been given to understand that many Bretons have a sense of solidarity with other Celtic countries and fringe regions which even extend to Asturia and Galicia in Spain. Apparently, there is a Festival Celtique de Lorient that takes place every summer in the eponymous city. In fact, there was a Breton parade that took place at the Champs-Elysees last autumn and participating groups include kilt-wearing bagpipe-playing representatives from Scotland.
fab
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However, since both Romance languages and Celtic languages are both Indo-European, French is still far more closely related to Breton than to Chinese.
I know this, it hasn't to be taken literally. "c'est du Chinois" in french is just an expression that means we don't understand it...
That said, the indo-European relation is not really obvious for the everyday speaker of a language, it is something that only linguists or people with linguistic knoledges can notice most of the time.
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I'd like to know if Fab has ever heard picard spoken when he is in Picardy and whether he is able to fully understand a conversation conducted either in picard or cht'mi.
I actually never been in Picardy, and only once in Nord-Pas-de-Calais (not taking in count the times I crossed it to go to England Belgium or Netherlands.), so I'm not a specialist of the question or accents of these regions. I never had the opportunity to hear a conversation in "Chti' ".
The only time I've been in Lille and Dunquerke I haven't heard speaking "Chti", but standard french without, or with a light accent depending of the people.
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I have been given to understand that many Bretons have a sense of solidarity with other Celtic countries and fringe regions which even extend to Asturia and Galicia in Spain. Apparently, there is a Festival Celtique de Lorient that takes place every summer in the eponymous city.
the festival interceltique de Lorient is very famous and is a major attraction in that region in summer.
"celtic" is generally thought as quite wide concept, even including some places like Astralia or new Zealand among the traditional "celtic nations".
although many bretons identify with that concept I personally would have some reserves. I tend to think that the name "celtic" doesn't really well apply to them, because most are not speaking a celtic language anymore, nor are having a specific "celtic" culture or religion, and are part of quite different states. Etnically speaking it would be difficult to assume today, after the so many migrations that they would have a common "celtic" origin - essentially because the "original" celts were not originary from these regions but more from the inside of continental Europe.
I think that in the modern meaning, celtic is mainly a "new" identity for the people of the fringes of western Europe caused more about similar landscapes and climates (so of habitats too), and an identification with a sortt of way of life linked with that ambiance, with the wild ocean, etc. but finally not really a "celt" thing - even in music, the bagpipes which have became a sort of icone of "celticness" are not of celtic origin but were widely used in all Europe at a certain time, even in north Africa.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
I think that in the modern meaning, celtic is mainly a "new" identity for the people of the fringes of western Europe caused more about similar landscapes and climates (so of habitats too), and an identification with a sortt of way of life linked with that ambiance, with the wild ocean, etc. but finally not really a "celt" thing - even in music, the bagpipes which have became a sort of icone of "celticness" are not of celtic origin but were widely used in all Europe at a certain time, even in north Africa.
I think it's fairly obvious that the main motivation behind the 'Celtic identity' is to exclude England, and by extension most of France and most of Spain — probably for political reasons. Or at least, I think that's certainly the motivation behind the people who produced that map you posted above, especially as large areas of Australia seem to have been included. Fundamentally, I completely fail to see how Lowland Scotland is any more 'Celtic' than England — like England, Lowland Scotland has been predominantly Germanic-speaking for well over a thousand years. But ultimately, 'Celticness' isn't something you hear about a huge amount in Scotland, to be honest. (There's also the viewpoint that 'traditional Scottish culture' was largely invented by English aristocrats in the 19th century anyway).
fab
Quote:
Fundamentally, I completely fail to see how Lowland Scotland is any more 'Celtic' than England — like England, Lowland Scotland has been predominantly Germanic-speaking for well over a thousand years.
I agree with you. Actually about 80% of Britanny wasn't celtic speaking (unless we come back to the times when all western Europe was). But, some people still consider Britanny as a whole to be "celtic" without really knowing was it could mean. Rennes has nothing more "celtic" than Tours, angers or any other north-western french city, which all look pretty similar with similar kind of people. for me calling Britanny a "celtic nation" is not something to take seriously, and most people doesn't. Said that, some young politized young people can fell in a sort of independantist extremism, often of extreme-left in the case of Britanny, which them thinking they are supposed to be part of a different nation than the rest of the country, supposed to be "celtic", in opposition of the rest.
Benjamin [inactive]
I'm not opposed to Breton independence, and I would say that I feel a certain affinity with the Union Démocratique Bretonne (even though they don't actually advocate Breton independence in the short term). I essentially view the UDB as a relatively left-wing party allied with the Greens which is committed to the preservation of the Breton language and devolution for Brittany.
Having said that, as far as the pro-independence movement is concerned, Britanny is decades behind Scotland or even Wales.
fab
Quote:
Having said that, as far as the pro-independence movement is concerned, Britanny is decades behind Scotland or even Wales.
It seems you mean that it has to go in that direction, or it would be a good thing? why it should?
Quote:
I'm not opposed to Breton independence,
Does it mean you are in favour of it? that's how I feel to understand it.
Loic
fab wrote:
Actually about 80% of Britanny wasn't celtic speaking (unless we come back to the times when all western Europe was). But, some people still consider Britanny as a whole to be "celtic" without really knowing was it could mean. Rennes has nothing more "celtic" than Tours, angers or any other north-western french city, which all look pretty similar with similar kind of people.
Is the proportation really that high? In my understanding, Basse-Bretagne or the departments of Finistere and Morbihan had traditionally been bretonnat with the line dividing Breton and Gallo cutting through Cote d'Armor and Ille-et-Vilaine.
From what I know though, Breton is indeed a language in imminent extinction. There are scores of people in their 50s who grew up hearing Breton being spoken, but who are now unable to speak more than a few cursory words. I befriended a couple of Bretons at Essec and most of them only know a few words like "kenavo" (read: salut) or "demat" (read: bonjour).
I think what gives Britanny its lasting Celtic character has to be the convoluted place names which defy pronunciation - at least for the visitor who is more accustomed to Gallic vowels. Some of the places which I sensibly did not attempt to pronounce include Plougoumelen, Plobannalec-Lesconil, Ploudalmézeau as well as Bannalec. These names seem to be a world apart from places such as Cergy, Neuville, Conflans – Fin d'Oise or Houilles – Carrières-sur-Seine (all train stops of the RER A line).
Of course, place names aside, I'd consider the Catholic traditions of the region to be a strong part of its Celtic heritage. Where else in France can you find calvaries dotting the sides of the road or young people attending mass?
fab
Quote:
Is the proportation really that high?
well, it probably depends where you put the border of Britanny - the historic britanny doesn't fit exactly with the actual administrative entity. Nantes and its region for exemple was part of it Britanny but is now in "pays de la Loire" administrative region.
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From what I know though, Breton is indeed a language in imminent extinction. There are scores of people in their 50s who grew up hearing Breton being spoken, but who are now unable to speak more than a few cursory words. I befriended a couple of Bretons at Essec and most of them only know a few words like "kenavo" (read: salut) or "demat" (read: bonjour).
I actually never have met Bretons able to speak more than those few words.
[quote]I think what gives Britanny its lasting Celtic character has to be the convoluted place names which defy pronunciation - at least for the visitor who is more accustomed to Gallic vowels.
Quote:
It is interesting is the word "gallic" you used to describe french in opposition to Breton, while "gallic" originally relates to a celtic former entity.
But you're right that some Breton names can seem quite difficult to pronounce. But you also find in Britanny a lot of french names (particulary in the outside the "bretonnante" part but not only).
(Is the proportation really that high? In my understanding, Basse-Bretagne or the departments of Finistere and Morbihan had traditionally been bretonnat with the line dividing Breton and Gallo cutting through Cote d'Armor and Ille-et-Vilaine.
From what I know though, Breton is indeed a language in imminent extinction. There are scores of people in their 50s who grew up hearing Breton being spoken, but who are now unable to speak more than a few cursory words. I befriended a couple of Bretons at Essec and most of them only know a few words like "kenavo" (read: salut) or "demat" (read: bonjour).
I think what gives Britanny its lasting Celtic character has to be the convoluted place names which defy pronunciation - at least for the visitor who is more accustomed to Gallic vowels. Some of the places which I sensibly did not attempt to pronounce include Plougoumelen, Plobannalec-Lesconil, Ploudalmézeau as well as Bannalec. These names seem to be a world apart from places such as Cergy, Neuville, Conflans – Fin d'Oise or Houilles – Carrières-sur-Seine (all train stops of the RER A line).
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Of course, place names aside, I'd consider the Catholic traditions of the region to be a strong part of its Celtic heritage.
It is interesting that you associate catholicism with celticness - some regions that claim to be celtic are not all majoritary catholic; Scotland, Wales are not. In my opinion the strong catholic traditions in Britanny are more linked with the isolation of the region that endured the place during centuries . Corsica is probably even more.
Benjamin [inactive]
fab wrote:
Quote:
Having said that, as far as the pro-independence movement is concerned, Britanny is decades behind Scotland or even Wales.
It seems you mean that it has to go in that direction, or it would be a good thing? why it should?
I mean that the state of the Breton independence movement is roughly comparable to where Scotland was about 40 years ago. It may or may not go in that direction.
fab wrote:
Quote:
I'm not opposed to Breton independence,
Does it mean you are in favour of it? that's how I feel to understand it.
Ultimately, yes — because I am generally sympathetic to all non-violent 'separatist' movements as a means to create more locally-based democratic societies. I would be happy to see an independent Brittany, but I'm not so bothered about it that I would actually go there and start campaigning for it though.
Deborah
fab wrote:
I actually never have met Bretons able to speak more than those few words.
I met one in NY in the early 1980s, at which time he was in his 20s. My brother was tutoring him in math. He was fluent in Breton -- not that I know anything about Breton, but he did demonstrate his ability to speak a language that he said was Breton, and I had no reason to doubt that it was Breton.
What do you think people from Norway or Denmark would say to that?