| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Where we started...I thought it would be interesting for our oldtimers to revisit the very first langcafe, and perhaps for our newer members to see where we came from...http://14.freebb.com/antimoonbis/antimoonbis.html |
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Nice resurrection ! Great you managed to do it, André ! 
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Actually came across it by accident!  Pity the second version is gone forever... 
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| Uriel |
Oh, my god, I can't believe it's back up again! 
Man, I miss Yann and Losse and all the others -- but it's amazing how the rest of us -- like you, me, greg, loic, Lazar -- have kept together for years, now! We really are like a little family! And looking at that list of topics, isn't it funny how we love to rehash the same old questions time after time after time? 
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| Loic |
I can always remember the first topic I created on Langcafe and it was created to time with the ongoing Ashes frenzy which England were poised to recapture back then.
They have since lost it again. Of course, the reason why some old topics get recycled so often is because they give us so much fodder for discussion and debate. I think we all derive thrills from arguing for the sake of argument at times - finding a common platform is just not as important! |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
And I miss Snipsa as well!! |
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| Uriel |
And Joel! How could I forget my li'l kiwi buddy, Joel -- or dINZOST*R, as he was back then! 
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| Shouga |
So where did all the people from that forum go? Yann, Frances, all the others? Why didn't they sign up to this forum? | ||||||||||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Nobody knows. Yann started both the first and second versions, and then mysteriously disappeared (which is also why the second forum crashed, since that was a paid-for site). Frances and the others who are no longer around, all probably just lost interest somewhere along the line, and stopped posting even before the second forum crashed, so they are unaware of this forum.
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Yann, Travis & Kirk me manquent ! | ||||||||||||||||
| Lazar |
Yeah, there's a lot of great people that have fallen by the wayside. 
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| Deborah |
Look -- Yann and Kirk are back! 
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| Joanne |
 This exchange between André and Sander in the "Who Killed Yann?" thread made me laugh when I first read it a year and a half ago. (Geez, has it been really that long?  " alt="" border="0" /> )
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| Shouga |
lol I love that
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| Fredrik |
Although he visits occasionally, I miss Sander. He's such a study in contradictions. | ||||||||||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Ha ha ha !!!
If only... 
Mais il reste toujours les vieux de la vieille (oldtimers), comme on dit en français. Et surtout plein de nouveaux ! |
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| Deborah |
I just recalled the "hunk of langcafe" contest -- that had completely slipped my mind. In fact, I don't even remember who won it. | ||||||||||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
  How could you forget? Julian won - both times. That means he is still the official Hunk of Langcafe.
Can't remember who won "lady of Langcafe" though - wasn't it Uriel?
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| Deborah |
We held that silly contest twice?? (Oh, I'm sorry -- wasn't it you who suggested it?)
I believe it was. |
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| Loic |
It was silly, but quite fun, really!
What struck me about the old forum is the paucity of the discussion threads. It looked as bare as Old Mother Hubbard's cupboard. But at least we had plenty of bones in it. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
 Yep, that was me! We had it on the first forum, and then had another one when we moved over to the second one. I wonder, maybe I should... 
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Of course the first forum was never meant to be permanent. |
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| Uriel |
Oh, God -- I had forgotten about that Lady of Langcafe stuff! (Although the Hunk contest was where we got to see Julian's abs for the first time -- remember Julian's abs, Andre?)
Joel was a university student and kept not having money to pay for his internet connection -- I bet he doesn't even remember us anymore (also sniff -- he was my cute little gay boyfriend -- remember how we used to flirt?) Yann's probably wanted by Interpol or something. Sander I haven't seen in forever -- remember when he thought I was a guy? And a gay one, at that! (You have to post that baby picture of him playing the euphonium, Julian!)
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Of course I remember Julian's abs!! Actually that pic is still tucked away somewhere on the old forum, but I'm not telling where...
I seem to remember the first ever conversation we ever had, was about boerewors...
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| Joanne |
Yes, I found it FINALLY (and had a heart attack), and I've already gotten a PM request for its location. I wouldn't feel right telling, though. Julian's shy.
Did he ever pick up his Lycra trophy?
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| Deborah |
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| Uriel |
I found it, and the mo#$%&*fu@%)#& link didn't work! 
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| Joanne |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Yep, he came to South Africa to receive his trophy, but then he escaped agai... er, I mean, and he took it back to the USA with him. |
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| Uriel |
Good to see the old Andre back!  Your ticker may need work, but I see your, uh ...mind.... is still functioning the same as ever!
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| Julian |
Hmm ... I wonder what happened ...
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| Uriel |
You're a bastard! Ruining a poor, lonely woman's night like that.... 
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| Julian |
I'm sure you kind find other ways of entertaining yourself at night ...  like knitting or reading a book!
That was my trophy??? I thought that was just a costume you had me put on for the "Hunk of Langcafé" photo shoot. You even took some test polaroids.
But I am shy.
Yann, Joel, Kirk ... André, what have you done with them???  
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| Uriel |
Andre! You said you'd share all the test polaroids with me! As former Lady of Langcafe, I demand a contact sheet!
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| Deborah |
Sorry, Julian, but you'd be a lot more convincing had you not posted that photo in the first place. |
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| Uriel |
Abs-olutely.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
I mailed it to you, you mean you never received it??  
As for Yann, Joel and Kirk.... I have no idea where they are, why does everyone always look at me, I'm totally innocent! 
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
It seems some of us are missed over at Antimoon... :smt00
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t6195-0.htm
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
And speaking of Antimoon.... I wrote a few posts there tonight, the first time in about two years....eeeaaauuuwwww..... Excuse me, I have to go and have a bath....
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| Fredrik |
LOL, have you noticed that our two Beneluxians, Sander and Pauline, are the only ones who have made lists of our sexual orientations? Strange that they can't stand each other when they have this unique trait in common!!! | ||||||||||||||||
| greg in noord-frankrijk |
Us ?!? Bon débarras ! Adam has been replaced by Franco...
Me too I've resumed posting after... two weeks... I'll wash my hands... |
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| Pauline |
 I havn't nothing in common with Sander.
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| Elaine |
I paid antimoon a visit recently.  Now I need a flea dip and a shot of penicillin. Feh! More of the same nastiness, vulgarity, misogyny, homophobia, Francophobia, Ameriphobia, etc., only the names have changed. What I find most annoying is the misinformation being bandied about as truth.
I'm slightly offended that Travis prefers their company over ours.
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Despite what Travis suggested on one thread there, I actually believe that Franco is a native English speaker. He makes 'grammatical mistakes' which are very reminiscent of the grammar used in certain dialects, for example using don't in place of doesn't. It seems unlikely that a non-native speaker who had learnt standard English to a very high level would be making those sorts of 'grammatical mistakes'. (Just to be clear — I know that using don't in place of doesn't is not a 'grammatical mistake' if it is used in that way in one's native dialect). |
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| Liz |
It's interesting. I'm a non-native speaker, still, I'm prone to make such mistakes.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
I'm a non-native speaker as well, and I also make mistakes like that sometimes. I guess it proves how good our English is!
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| Liz |
LOL! Right you are.
I don't know...for some reason I've always considered you to be a native speaker.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Really? I'm not, Afrikaans is my native language.
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| Liz |
I know that Arikaans is your native language - it wasn't too hard to have an educated guess (Andre in Zuid-Afrika).
Still, I've always thought of you as a native speaker. You speak (or at least write) English considerably better than the vast majority of those who have learnt it at school or moved to an English speaking country as an adult. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Thank you. Well, I did learn it in school, but of course I also hear (and speak) it daily.
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| Loic |
Wouldn't that make you a somewhat native speaker, Andre?
Even if English wasn't your mother tongue, you must have gained native fluency in the English language. In fact, you are probably more fluent than I am as I am especially susceptible to mispronunciations at times or when I am trying to rack my brain for a term to describe a certain phenomenon only to be confronted with equivalents in other languages. |
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| Liz |
Same here. Well, not exactly the same... You (Loic) are more native-like than me as you are constantly being exposed to the English language on a daily basis (I presume). Although I was partly educated in an English-medium school and now half of my subjects at uni are in English (the other half is in German, so Hungarian is almost totally excluded ), I'm not forced to interact in English every day. Here in Germany I use German as a means of communication most of the time - I converse in English with those only who are either native English speakers or can't speak German at all. Still, I'm less proficient in German than in English and I hit a nerve every time Germans desperately want to speak English to me. (We are in Germany, for God's sake! ) I fail to see the reason for that anyway -- I'd be pleased if someone was trying to talk to me in my own mother tongue. Probably they want to practise English, which is a good thing but I don't think I'm the most suitable person for their purposes. But if they have no choice...
PS: We might as well construct a hierarchy as to who is more native-like than the other. André is more native-like than Loic, Loic is more native-like than me... That would be The Great Chain of Speaking or something like that!
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| Uriel |
Well, there are plenty of British people -- and even other Europeans (!) -- who would put us Americans a few links below all of you....
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| Loic |
Technically, I am actually an English native speaker if you define a native speaker as one whose first language learnt is English. In Singapore, I'd speak English with what we'd say a Singaporean-English accent. It is quite different from someone whose mother tongue is Chinese or Malay and they end up speaking English. Their cadence'd be slightly different from mine. But well, to non Singaporean ears anyway, the differences between the two would be likely negligible and we would all sound like non native speakers to you because nobody has ever heard of our accents before. In reality, even the most 'sinicised' person here would probably struggle if he is asked to study in Chinese. Almost all of my 'Chinese-speaking' mates overwhelmingly prefer to read in English and I can see their point. Personally, my best cure for insomnia is to read anything dull and dry in Chinese and just allow all those characters to overwhelm me and flood my vision. I'd be sailing off to slumberland in no time. All schools here are English-medium schools. The 'mother tongues' (read: second languages) are given about 3 hours of classroom exposure every week but I don't think it is enough. Some people can leave school after 10 years of study without knowing how to write a formal letter of complaint (I don't know why, but we were always writing complaint letters in our Chinese composition class). How did you end up in a school that taught partially in English? You mentioned in another column that you were from an independent school. Does this mean that such schools are given more leeway when it comes to deciding their curriculum structure, including the language of instruction?
Honestly, if all of us had not stated our locations at the side-bar, I'd had presumed that almost everyone here comes from a monolinggual English-speaking background. The trouble about English is that it is sufficiently diverse and international such that we tend to accept any quirk as a regional kind of peculiarity that does not detract from the fact that the person is still a native language speaker. |
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| Liz |
I don't think so...
It's interesting. However, it seems natural in your country as English is an official language there. (Is it? ). Although you might sound foreign to non-Singaporean ears, your English is in fact at a native level, with the occassional regional differences, of course. As opposed to you, English is merely a foreign language to us, Hungarians. As a result of this, most people are too lazy to read in English. Even at our university, where we have to read all the English books in English, the vast majority of students refuse to do so and read the Hungarian translation instead. They claim to have no time and energy to do so as they read much faster in Hungarian than in English. I get quizzical looks when I admit to reading everything in English -- they can't believe how I have so much time to do so. I don't have so much time, I do it for the simple reason that I enjoy reading in foreign languages, especially in English. I love reading in Hungarian as well, but only Hungarian books or other literary works that were written in languages that I don't understand at all. Besides, I'm accustomed to reading in English as I've been doing that for about ten years or more. Unfortunately, reading in German is much more time-consuming an activity for me as I'm not so skilled in reading German books. However, I keep on practising and try not to avoid reading them in the original.
Complaint letters seem to be immensely popular worldwide. We had to write heaps of them in both languages (Hungarian and English) to the point that we felt like throwing up. Personally, I hated it because the reasons for complaint were always ever so trivial. However, I'm not sure if I was able to write a proper complaint letter now.
Actually, my decision was based on general consensus -- it was my parents' and my decision. I might as well have continued my studies in an art school but I changed my mind. You don't only need talent but good luck as well to gain admittance to the College of Arts. If I had continued my studies in an art school, I would have had to devote those four years to preparation for the College of Arts, most probably in vain. If I hadn't gain admittance to the College of Arts, I wouldn't have had other possibilities as basic subjects, which are essential for a successful entrance exam at other universities, are woefully ignored at art schools. So, I decided to go to a school, more precisely a class specialised in English, which means that half of the lessons were English-speaking. This school was one of the most prestigeous secondary schools in town or even in the whole country. (Note that "prestigeous" doeasn't mean "expensive" in Hungary. We didn't have to pay for it, apart from books and "class money" which we spent on class trips.) I've heard a lot of "Singlish". How often is it used in Singapore? Is it stigmatised? Based on the fact that you write very eloquently but "Singlish" seems to be some sort of a pidgin, I presume that speaking Standard Singaporean English isn't tantamount to using "Singlish". |
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| Loic |
Yes, it is one of the four official languages and the de facto language of administration and of all official spheres of life. However, Malay is the national language.
I empathise with your peers. It is so much easier to mentally process and assimilate the information when it is written in a language which the reader is most accustomed to. Inwardly, I have a lot of admiration for the many people of this forum who are comfortably participating in an exchange of ideas in this forum through the medium of the English language. If Langcafe were a solely French language forum, I doubt if I'd have lasted long here. It'd seem too much like homework for me.
Actually, it is statements like these which made me wonder if English is still a foreign language to you. It might have once been alien but from the looks of it, English is certainly no longer a distant relative whom you'd meet once in a blue moon. If Hungarian is considered to be your right hand (I am assuming a right-handed bias here), would you consider English to be your metaphorical left hand? When I listened to your audio recordings, I must say that you do sound pretty English to me. Very native-like, if I may say so.
I seriously think that there is a worldwide conspiracy in educational circles to take the mickey out of us students by forcing us to write complaint letters on the most trivial of grounds. I once remember writing a complaint letter in class because my hypothetical neighbour was playing mahjong and hence creating a racket till the wee hours of the morning.
It's basically the same here in the sense that the good schools are also subsidised by the Government. I went to an independent school and our school fees, while high if you pause to consider that education is virtually free in government-funded schools, are still not extravagently prohibitive. This is why I am a firm believer in the system of meritocracy: equal opportunities must be given to men (and women) of talent. People from less advantaged backgrounds would not be discriminated against when there are bursaries and scholarship awards for the deserving.
Very often. Actually, I don't really speak much Singlish but there are times when I'd oblige myself to in order to ingratiate myself with a certain circle of friends. Speaking standard English all the time can be a trying affair: you'd get ridiculed with horrible epithets such as 'jiak kantang' or someone who eats potatoes, meaning someone trying to be a psuedo-Westerner and who, by default, places himself on a higher station than the rest. Despite English being the sole language of education, many people here have a lot of trouble in stringing together words to form a grammar-free sentence. This is why I cringe whenever people talk about the benefits of code-switching. Maybe they come from different backgrounds where people who code-switch are still perfectly able to write like Shakespeare and Cervantes. Because of the prevalence of code-switching here, I estimate that our general language abilities are actually quite poor despite the much touted fact that Singapore is an 'English-speaking city': the average Joe's level of English is probably only 75% of his monolinggual English speaking peer while his Chinese abilities are probably only 50% of his counterpart in China.
It depends. Some people are inordinately proud of it and they tend to be those who already have a very firm grasp of the English language. Many playwrights, for example, relish peppering their dialogue with Singlish phrases in order to exhibit a perceived solidarity with the working classes. In contrast, it is the Singlish speakers themselves who are a little embarrassed by this 'mongrel tongue'.
Definitely not. They are as different as chalk and cheese - okay, I exaggerate. However, standard Singapore English is no different from one of those bland uniform clones of standard British English that you'd find in most British Commonwealth countries everywhere. It also doesn't help that most of our textbooks here are imported directly from Britain or if written by locals, are invariably written by people who have studied in Britain. In fact, our GCE O and A levels are set and graded directly by the University of Cambridge. We always joke as to what'd happen if our papers on board a ship sink en route from Singapore to Britain. Just to show you that the Government is often a prisoner to the nanny state mentality, we have an annual campaign here called the Speak Good English campaign in which people are exhorted to speak in the 'Queen's English'. We also have a Speak Mandarin Campaign here. And also a Stop Smoking Campaign. And plenty of other campaigns that dare not speak its name. It's really anal sometimes. PS: I am trying to remember if we once had a Flush your Toilet Bowls After Use Campaign. Such a campaign rings a bell. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Well, it depends on your definition of a native speaker. I don't consider myself to be one, but yes, I am fluent in English. But Afrikaans is the language I think in, that I dream in. Language plays no part in my choice of music, movies, TV programmes, books and so on. But I would rather buy an Afrikaans newspaper or magazine than an English one (when I have to choose, I do read some English magazines because I like them, and English newspapers because it's part of my job). Basically, when I have a choice, Afrikaans is the natural choice. |
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| Liz |
Your French seems pretty good to me, though...as far as I can judge. I'd rather not qualify my productive skills in French.
Well said. Although it isn't my native language, it is the least "foreign" of all the foreign languages I speak, and as a result of this, I'm more closely related to it than to other foreign languages. Not that I find English more beautiful than other languages -- it's no judgement on the aesthetics of the language on my part. It's not like, say, preferring French to German. I wouldn't say I love English and hate German as I like both of them. English just happens to be the language I've grown accustomed to the most, apart from my mother tongue.
Thank you. I'd like to hear you speak, too. I've never heard Singaporean English. Do you have a British-type accent or is it something totally different? You mentioned somewhere that your cadence sounds strange to non-Singaporean ears.
Whom did you have to write the complaint letter -- your neighbour or some kind of authority, the police etc.?
My most memorable complaint letter was written about the following problem: Yesterday I bought a china dinner set. Every single piece of it was supposed to be ornamented by light blue flowers but after I had opened the box, the flowers turned out to be a shade darker, and I find it utterly disgraceful.
So your educational system is basically the same as that of Britain, isn't it?
I like your abundance of unrealistic if not surrealistic campaigns. The last one (Toilet Bowls) is my personal favourite. It reminds me of my bygone time in an extremely worn-down dormitory in Hungary, nevertheless, nowhere near as grotty as the one I currently have in Germany. There used to be a so-called fox hunting campaign. Of course, no real foxes were involved -- the Hungarian word for fox is colloquially used as a synonym for vomit. So, some students had a disgusting habit of finishing the night off with a pavement pizza, most preferably as close to the toilet bowl as possible but never completely into it. Needless to say that it was almost always a near miss as they were too wasted to aim perfectly. Our resident master wanted to make an end of it, and threatened all the students that any time the same thing happens there'll be a fox hunting, i.e. they'll try to find the fox's owner.
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| Loic |
To me, it is simply one who has achieved native-like fluency in a language. If you were to go overseas to teach English, you'd probably be classifed as a native teacher and you wouldn't quibble with that tag either once you learn that native English language teachers are usually paid a higher premium than those who have learnt it as a second language.
Thanks. It should be better though if you consider that I actually took French for my A levels. But the way French is taught here is seriously screwed up. Way too much emphasis on grammar and a myriad of conjugaisons. We were taught how to pass the exams and not to speak the language. As a result, I consider myself to be deficient in the oral component of the language.
No. If I must pinpoint an accent as a point of reference, I realise that some people here speak English with an accent that sounds alarmingly close to the Australian one. People who usually speak English with such an accent can usually be relied upon to flunk their Chinese exams back in school. I think the Singaporean and Malaysian accents are very alike, much like General American and Canadian accents. Generally, the pronunciation here adheres to RP and I'd give you some examples which I have often quoted here: 'Lieutenant' is pronounced as left-tuh-nant. In Malay, lieutenant is actually spelled as leftenant. 'Medicine' is pronounced with two syllables. But some people do pronounce with three but they are usually the Chinese-speaking types who have to break up every syllable of a word in order to know how to spell it. We do not make "can" and "can't" sound like homonyms like the North Americans do. The letter Z is a 'Zed'. Et cetera.
I think I was once asked to write a complaint letter to the MP. It is as if the MP already doesn't have enough to do day in, day out!
Not really. The English educational system has changed quite a bit since the late 80s, I think. For example, they no longer have GCE 'O' levels but GCSEs. We still stick with the GCEs. What is the difference? Personally, I think the GCSEs are easier. It is more theoretical and many physics problems simply require a substitution of the values into the revelant formula without much critical thinking involved. Even our 'A' levels are slightly different. They have AS levels; we don't. They used to have Further Mathematics as a paper and no longer do; we still have F Maths. I remember once looking at a F Maths mechanics problem of my mate's and I nearly fainted in horror. It was so complex and his foolscap paper was filled with doodles (sketches, he call it) of free body diagrams that are supposed to help solve for the resultant force. But our syllabuses are still broadly similar, if you ask me. Lately, there has been a move to ditch the GCEs in favour of the International Baccaleureat (IB) programme, but I vehemently disagree with such a move. I know that the IB promotes a more holistic approach to education by obliging their candidates to take an eclectic range of subjects. However, width comes often at the expense of depth and I can only foresee a decline in maths and physics standards if students are obliged to cram more subjects into their timetable. To give you an example of the level of maths here, we are often given the choice of being exempted from first year mathematical modules when we go overseas to study. I have a friend at UC Berkeley who was given a free pass for his calculus as well as mechanics modules when he was in his first year there. He's doing electrical engineering by the way. In Britain, the students aren't even taught imaginary numbers until they enter university! I can only blame this decline in mathematical ability on the introduction of the AS levels.
I know they have a surreal quality to it, but the pathetic truth is that they exist and that they continue to be vigilantly promoted by the relevant authorities. The Speak Mandarin Campaign was initially launched to promote the usage of Mandarin at the expense of the Chinese dialects and it has succeeded so well that the campaign is now desperately trying to reposition itself by appealing to English-speakers (like me) to speak Mandarin in place of English at work and at play. The Speak Good English Campaign was launched in response to perceived declines in English language ability here. In the 1980s, there was a Great Marriage Campaign in which graduate mothers were encouraged to marry and to give birth. This policy was promoted by some wag in the government who believed that educated mothers give birth to intelligent children. As a result, mothers who did not have a university degree were subtly discriminated against: their children were not given priority when it comes to primary school placings, etc. The Government was given a lot of flake over this policy and was walloped in the General Elections. They hastily withdrew the policy. The Flush Your Toilets After Use Campaign, I just confirmed, is still alive and kicking. Apparently, this only applies to public toilets. In fact, it is an offence not to flush the toilet bowls after use here and you'd ignore this rule on peril of a $500 fine. I once had a friend from overseas who anxiously rushed out of his cubicle after a visit. He worriedly said that the cistern flush wasn't working properly and if he'd hence be penalised for failing to observe the law. He also wondered aloud if there were CTV cameras installed in every cubicle to monitor the toilet habits of every toilet user on the island. I have to reassure him that the law exists more as a reminder and as a guideline rather than a sanctionary device.
I know the feeling. It sucks, right? But at least you do not have clean the toilets, do you? When I was undergoing basic military training, I was given the job of toilet I/C, meaning I was in charge of cleaning the toilets. There was this time when some bugger puked all over the place in the middle of the night. I was not aware of it until the next morning when the damage was already largely done. So while everyone was having their breakfast, my motley crew and I (the toilet detail) were busily mopping the floor. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
OK, I can accept that. I suppose then I do qualify (at least for South African English).
Right!!
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| Uriel |
Well, as you know, we're required to take a smorgasbord of subjects all the way from elementary school through a bachelor's degree, and I was taught imaginary numbers somewhere in late elementary school or middle school. I've never heard of being assigned to write a complaint letter as an exercise! That's pretty darn funny.
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| Loic |
I am genuinely surprised that you learnt about this abstract concept at such a young age. But then again, academic standards tend to be more rigorous in the past than they are now. I wonder if you have heard of a sort of internet-based game called MUD (Multi-User Domain) where players interact in a virtual world through mediums such as telnet or Zmud. Well, I used to engage in ooc (Out of Character) chat with many american players there who were around my age and I remember the engineering students amongst them who used to express surprise that I was learning imaginary numbers at pre-university level. I am not against a wide curriculum as a holistic education is one of the hallmarks of refined upbringing. However, I decry the lack of depth in many of the subjects. Take language learning, for example. How good is the second language skills of a reasonable American after he graduates from high school at 18? Was depth sacrificed for width in this case? This is not to say that the Singapore system focuses on depth. By obliging us to take at least 7 subjects for our GCE 'O' levels, we could not explore many of the subject themes in detail. But well, I am dangerously veering away into another pet topic altogether: education! So I'll stop. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
We get taught how to do that in school, in both languages. Which is probably why nobody ever does it after leaving school. Which is probably why we get terrible service.... |
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| Liz |
Really? Although being taught by a native speaker has several advantages, I fail to see the reason for the overall obsession with native speakers. I've met lots of native speakers who were hopelessly bad teachers or weren't teachers at all -- you know, those who are employed based on a false supposition that the mere fact of being a native speaker automatically entitles a person to teach the language. Sometimes a higly qualified non-native speaker does a far better job of it.
I pronounce it this way, too. I usually get quizzical looks for it in Hungary and Germany...my peers assume that I either have some rare kind of speech impediment or I simply failed to acquire the basics of standard English pronunciation. However, to me, both the British and the American pronunciation of this word seem pretty odd and illogical as I would expect it to be pronounced roughly in the French way.
Me, too -- with three syllables. It's probably the vestige of the "let's pronounce the way we spell" style Hungarian attitude towards language. For this reason, I've always had a peculiar aversion towards saying "medsin".
I just love it when some learners pronounce "can't" as "cunt"!  Does anyone tend to do it in Singapore, too?
I see. But unlike you, the "A" level thing and the BA/MA system is all Greek to most Hungarian people except for those who are Greek (there are lots of them): to them, it's double Dutch. Our secondary education is, of course, totally different from that of the UK but quite similar to that of other European countries. Higher education used to be different but from 2007 onwards we are in the Bologna system. Although I have a vague notion of how this system works, I'm not deeply involved in it. I count as a fossil with my solid 22 (going on 23!) years as I'm in the old "five years of study makes a university degree" system. At least, if you are a double major in philology -- it's only four years if you are a single major in philology except when you are studying archeology or sociology in which case it's five years. There are three years' subjects as well (marketing, human resources and other Mickey Mouse majors). Other "normal" subjects normally take five years.
Funnily enough, I don't. Okay, you don't usually find puke in the toilet bowls but our toilet is in a dismal condition. Moreover, it's a full-fledged "In-Yer-Face Theatre" as it's a toilet for boys and girls only...very exclusive. Of course, boys are always using the urinals instead of cubicles and aren't bothered by the sight of blushing girls. 
You must have had a good time there... 
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
You did???!!! " alt="" border="0" /> Is it still compulsary in Hungary? We didn't even have that in the apartheid years! " alt="" border="0" />
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| Liz |
NO, IT'S NOT ME!!!! It was Loic. I got the quotation wrong!!!!!!!!!! Aaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
It used to be compulsory and it's only a couple of years since it isn't. It has never been compulsory for women...I think.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Ah OK. I just wondered, we were told about you reddies... er, I mean... communists.... er, I mean, you people who had communist governments... and how your only purpose in life was to take over South Africa.... at least, that's what the apartheid government told us, and they couldn't possibly have lied... could they?
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| Uriel |
Well, as you know, loic, there is no universal standard of education across the country in the US, and there are some variations from one school district to another. I moved every few years as a child, so I found that out firsthand -- I would have already learned in one school what was taught later in another, or not at all in a third. As for imaginary numbers, I remember being taught what they were, having to do a few week's worth of problems, and then moving on -- the smorgasbord effect. No, I don't remember much about them now. I also don't remember how to factor a trinomial, although that, too, was drilled into my head at one point. But use it or lose it .... Trig and physics were also taught in my high school, but they were electives -- you had satisfied your scholastic requirements once you had taken geometry and two years of algebra. I liked math, but was never deeply interested in it. Same with languages. I really didn't like history much at all and took very little interest in it even at the college level. The sciences always fascinated me, and I took away a lot more from those classes than most students -- not because they didn't get the same textbooks and lectures that I did, but because I simply invested myself in reading and understanding them and working out the relationships. While most students get out of high school language classes with only a smattering of working knowledge, as you say, I also had friends who adored Spanish or French and took advanced classes in them, could speak them well, and went on to major in them in college. So the advantage of the smorgasbord system is that it allows you to be exposed to a wide variety of subjects so that you can figure out which ones you personally like; the drawback is that if you want in-depth knowledge, you have to take that initiative to learn yourself. Teachers will be happy to give you supplementary materials or assign you more advanced (or different) reading or projects if they know you like it and show the interest.
Andre, I have a feeling that our consumer system tends to simply sidestep the issue of complaint letters, since it's so common to offer "satisfaction guaranteed" -- as long as you have your sales receipt, many items can be returned for money back with no questions asked -- they don't even care why you didn't like it! |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Which is why the USA is great! Here, you basically have to kill the managing director to return any item.... The motto here seems to be: The customer is always wrong....
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| Liz |
Interesting...then it must have been some sort of a subconscious aspiration on the part of our then government. The plebs weren't informed on that. The government weren't, either. They didn't even waste a single word on South Africa. They just went on and on with the "rotting" imperial states ad nauseam, who allegedly lived in squalor, filth and horror.
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
You see how evil they were? Trying to take over South Africa, and not even knowing it! Mpphhhffff, ignoring us like that!  You mean while we considered countries like Poland and Hungary as enemies, you were hardly aware of us? So how are we supposed to feel about that, jeez....
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Just in case you misunderstand me... I'm joking... During the apartheid years, all communist states were portrayed here as enemies of SA. That was all part of the propaganda of the apartheid govt to ensure they retain power. The message was - black government = communist government = disaster for all Afrikaners/white people. Long story....
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| Liz |
Did you consider us enemies??? I didn't know that. I think the communist block were so much preoccupied with the US that they didn't have enough time and energy to cherish powerful affections like hatred for a small country off the beaten track.
Of course, you are joking. I'm joking, too. However, SA wasn't mentioned among the great enemies that time, as far as I'm aware. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Hmmppphhh... Actually, on a more serious note, we were a target of the Soviet block, because of our mineral wealth. The USSR gave a lot of help (financial and otherwise) to the SA Communist Party and the ANC to ensure a communist government in SA. The apartheid government used this to their benefit, but there was some truth to their propaganda about this. And yes, we did consider all communist countries as enemies.
I'm glad those days are over...
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| Liz |
A useful and interesting piece of information, André. I didn't know that. I have to ask someone from the older generation if they were aware of that but I assume this issue didn't get much publicity over here. |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
I would guess all of this would have received little (public) attention over there, but here it received a lot of attention. Even when you consider what was probably lies by a government which was evil as such, there was still more than enough proof that the communist block was planning a communist takeover of South Africa. |
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| Deborah |
We don't. We don't pronounce "can't" the way non-North Americans do, but we don't say it just like "can." If we did, we'd constantly have to stop each other and ask "Did you say "can" or "can't?" And even that question wouldn't make sense if we pronounced them the same. |
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| Pauline |
LOL!!!!!!!!! it would be extremely funny and an unanswerable question.
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| Loic |
Yes, I am aware of that, Uriel. But still, wouldn't the syllabus be broadly similar across the country? After all, every student is trained to sit for the SATs and standards should not diverge wildly.
It is fairly obvious that the natural sciences are your forte. However, I feel that the hallmark of an all-rounded education should encompass a broad range of subjects that should also include a musical education and sport for character development. Using the teaching of foreign languages as an example, I think it is pointless if they are teaching it without producing students who turn out to be reasonably competent speakers. In my view, one either does something well or not attempt to do it at all. What is the point of sitting through a few years of Spanish or French class and not knowing pretty much beyond counting 1 to 10 at the end of high school? I can make the same argument for mathematics. It always pisses me off when people moan about how 'useless' mathematics is. Literacy should not just be about letters; there is also something called numerical literacy.
I suppose it is because a language is not just a dull colourless programming language like QBasic or C++ but rather a medium by which culture and literature are also transmitted. I'd go out on a limb here and say that most second language learners of English are not familiar with many of the culturally-specific English phrases such as 'being in a sticky wicket' or 'being bowled over' or 'scoring an own goal'.
Kirk, an old hand in this forum, once dispassionately and rationally explained to me the origins of the word 'lieutenant'. Apparently, it was once spelled as lefttenant before fashionable French spellings replaced the original ones. While the spelling might have evolved, the pronunciation has not kept pace with the change and how we continue to pronounce this subaltern rank is something like a linguistic fossil. Personally, I like how we in Singapore pronounce many of our words. English is not a phonetic tongue; we do not pronounce the 's' in island or isle, do we? I always cringe when people pronounce 'medicine' with three syllables. But it's a sociocultural thing: as I've explained, it's usually those who are less adept with the English language here who tend to pronounce it phonetically.
Er....I think I pronounce 'can't in that way.
I like how you derisively painted those 3 year degree courses as Mickey Mouse majors. Some degrees cannot be taken too seriously such as a Bachelor in Leisure Studies or a Bachelor in Football Management or something along those lines. Incidentally, shouldn't female undergraduates be awarded a Spinster degree upon graduation? A Bachelor is a strictly masculine title. So imagine the academic credentials of a certain female graduate who had read history in university: SA (Spinster of Arts) 1-1 (First Class Honours).
Not that you'd blush, I suppose. You must be pretty blase by now. |
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| Loic |
But still, the differences between your "can" and "can't" are not as stark as how I pronounce mine. When Jack Nicholson's character famously spat out the "You can't handle the truth" line in A Few Good Men, I initially thought he was assuring Tom Cruise, albeit in a venemous fashion, that he is able to handle the truth. |
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| Julian |
That must be a British or Commonwealth thing because I've always heard it pronounced with 3 syllables, like this fellow: medicine dictionary.com: medicine |
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| Loic |
That, I am not sure. I am just aware of the local situation. But maybe it is more of a RP thing? I haven't the foggiest. |
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| Deborah |
Julian, in your second example of the pronunciation, it was explained:
But I think "especially Brit." should be "only Brit." because I've never heard a Western Hemispherical anglophone pronounce it with only 2 syllables. |
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| Uriel |
Yes, they are broadly similar. But they differ in the details, which is how I learned about imaginary numbers in grade school and your friends didn't get them until college.
Sure. We had physical education classes all through school, as well as art, music, home economics, shop class, etc. Team sports and band were available as well, although those were electives. (I have no talent for or interest in either.)
I would certainly agree. |
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| Loic |
My Organisational Behaviour tutor who's from NZ also pronounces 'medicine' with two syllables.
What I had in mind are compulsory games that culminate in inter-house competitions. I am a little prejudiced here as I feel that games for girls can be a purely optional thing. After all, what would they play but netball or hockey anyway? I have nothing against netball, though. In some ways, I think it can be more challenging than basketball. Saying that someone is not athletically inclined is a poor excuse for apathy towards games. Some people are not academically gifted as well, but they are still obliged to go through 10 years of formal schooling. An education should not just play to the strengths of the individual; it should also do a good job in exposing his weaknesses, if any. |
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| Deborah |
Yes, I knew I was leaving the door open for something like that, but I didn't have the energy at the moment to come up with a word that covered all of the non-Western-hemispherical accents of English, so I just used "Brit." because all of those accents sound more related to Brit. than Canadian and United Statesian do. |
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| Liz |
I agree. However, I can assure you that most learners having been or being taught by native speakers don't know these words, either. Some native teachers only teach idioms at a very advanced level, whereas others think that learners/non-native speakers shouldn't use culturally specific idioms as they don't belong to that culture, and should therefore stick to a sort of sterile neutral variety/style. I find it nonsensical because, as you put it quite rightly, language isn't a programming language and as such isn't normally used under laboratory conditions. As far as native speakers are concerned, I don't cast doubt on the efficacy of these teachers in general. I just wanted to point out that being a native speaker is no guarantee of being a good teacher as well, and that teachers shouldn't be payed on the basis of their native language but rather in accordance with their teaching skills.
An interesting piece of information...thanks, Loic. I have to admit that I didn't know that, which is a shame. Now I'm happy that I pronounce it in the *original* way.  (Not that the other pronunciation is less "correct".) By the way, what happened to Kirk? He isn't on Antimoon anymore, either.
Of course we don't. I wasn't implying that, either.
I usually don't cringe when people don't pronounce words the way I'm used to. The only exception is that when I hear the unpalatalised pronunciation of the word "issue" on the BBC. It makes me hit the ceiling for some reason. I know it's a perfectly normal and valid, nevertheless, slightly old-fashioned kind of pronunciation, but... It's not a value judgement, just entirely subjective. I assume your aversion towards pronouncing "medicine" with three syllables is an RP thing. Most RP/near-RP speakers pronounce it with two syllables as this is considered the "standard" way but I've heard plenty of British speakers pronounce it with three syllables, too. In American English, the three syllables way is the norm, as far as I'm aware.
Do you???
Note that not all three year degree courses are mickey mouse, however, the vast majority of them, including the most popular courses, definitely are. I had the chance of having a couple of Mickey Mouse majors as roommates. Their lifestyles were *slightly* different from mine...I daresay they spent more time at parties than at uni. It wasn't a problem as long as they stayed away anywhere else but later they developed the habit of staying in our room and listening to extremely loud music from dawn to dusk, to my greatest horror. Are Bachelor Leisure Studies and suchlike are real majors or just hypothetical ones? I like the idea of Spinster Degree. I've also thought of it as a good solution for eliminating inequality among men and women. I don't know why it hasn't been proposed by feminist activists yet. However, I must say that "spinster" is not too flattering an adjective to fling at young women (not to mention middle-aged or elderly ladies) as it, unlike "bachelor", has some negative connotations. Spinsters are nowadays called singles, rather elegantly if not euphemistically, so I would suggest that bachelor degrees obtained by women should be called "Single Degrees"...No, it sounds awkward...not to mention that the term "single" applies to both men and women. Therefore, say, BA and SA (Spinster of Arts - for the uninitiated) should unanimously renamed as "Single of Arts". That's horrible - what about married people then?
That said, I still don't possess the slightest desire to see how they are extracting poison from their cobras.
Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is "shop class"? Did you learn shopping skills? That one is a total stranger to me.
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| Deborah |
"Shop" classes teach skills that would be emphasized in vocational schools. In my junior high school days (the early '60s), shop courses were metal shop, wood shop and mechanical drawing. I imagine there are much more high-tech shop courses these days. In my day, boys in the 7th and 8th grades were required to take a shop course each semester, while girls were required to take 2 years of "Home Ec"(onomics), which consisted primarily of cooking and sewing. When I was in the 8th grade, a girl in my class made waves when when she insisted that she should be allowed to take mechanical drawing. It's hard to believe now, but she really had to fight for it, and became the first girl in the school's history to take a shop class. As the '60s progressed, gender role-bending became much more common. |
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| Liz |
Oh...I see. We had similar classes, too, both gender bending and gender specific. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
I'm not sure what 'being in a sticky wicket' or 'being bowled over' mean either. And for some reason, I always used to think that 'scoring an own goal' was 'scoring a home goal', partly because for many people there would be very little difference in pronunciation between those two phrases. And for the record, I pronounce 'medicine' with three syllables. |
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| Liz |
A kindred spirit! 
Besides, I also thought it was "scoring a home goal". |
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| Loic |
STICKY WICKET OED definition: A situation that is hard to deal with Eg. We're on a sticky wicket with these negotiations - they could easily fail. Another example as found in the Jamaican newspaper The Gleaner, April 1930: "Your Excellency, Sir William Morrison, and gentlemen. I am afraid tonight, owing to the rain we have had in this island of Springs, I am batting on rather a sticky wicket. We have just heard Sir William Morrison make, in my opinion, a magnificent speech. I do not hope or think of living up to that." BOWLED OVER OED definition: Phrv V: 1) to knock somebody down 2) to surprise/astonish someone greatly Eg. We were bowled over by the news of her sudden marriage. OWN GOAL OED definition: 1) a goal scored accidentally by a member of a team against his or her own side 2) a silly mistake made against one's own interests, which embarrasses one but amuses other people Eg. The proposals threatened their own jobs and were seen as a spectacular own goal. I hope you weren't taking the mickey out of me, Benjamin. For a wild moment, I thought that I have been speaking wrongly all these years. But then again, such expressions are in such common currency, at least in Singapore. So even if those expressions are only peculiar to my country, they are at least worthy of a mention in the OED. |
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| Deborah |
We use "bowled over" in the US. | ||||||||||||||||
| Uriel |
Oh, you HAVE to be kidding! Let's see -- we had basketball, volleyball, soccer, softball, baseball, track, swimming, equitation. Ever seen barrel racing? That's considered a "girl's rodeo sport". One of my friend's daughters has been in competitive shooting sports (yes, with a gun) since middle school. Title 9 requires that all universities offer the same number of sports to women that they do to men, and put their female athletes through the same grueling practice-and-game regimen as their males (I worked at my university's basketball arena, and watched those girls limp around after practice swaddled in ace wrap with icebags tied to every joint -- they work 'em just as hard!). My mother's university has one of the top three gymnastics teams in the US -- ex-Olympians join that team. In grade school and high school I had to play baseball, soccer, basketball, hockey (considered a guy's sport here -- I don't think there are any chicks in the the Edmonton Oilers), do situps, pushups, run laps, etc. -- whether I liked it or not! My favorite game was dodgeball -- not really a sport, more just trying not to get hit. But we only got to play that when it rained. The goal is to take that ball and whip it as hard as you can at someone else. Preferably hitting them in the face or the stomach. And by the time I got to school, we were all required to take shop and home ec -- boy or girl. 
Barrel racing 
Basketball 
Gymnastics 
Okay, I think it's a stupid game, but some people like it. 
I'm guessing this is a fastpitch wind-up. They always look silly. 
(Sigh) Texas Tech beating NMSU in English equitation.... |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Sadly, it would seem the original site has been overrun by trolls...
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| greg in noord-frankrijk |
And porn ads... | ||||||||||||||||
| André in Zuid-Afrika |
I so miss the original forum...
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| KSa |
Honestly, I don't really understand what was the reason for setting up the first langcafe forum while the "very first" langcafe was still existing? What's more, it is still existing, as opposed to the previous langcafe, the license for which expired last year.
And by the way - do you realize, Andre, that the fist birthday of Langcafe2 is coming soon? |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
The idea was to create a more sophisticated, and more permanent, forum. Boy, were we wrong on that second reason... Actually, that first one did disappear for a while, and then suddenly resurfaced.
Hehe, yeh, I've got langcafe2's birthday up on the birthday thread...
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
It seems the first forum had died finally...
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