| Archive for langcafe2.myfreeforum.org Come in and have your daily cup of languages! |
| Porthos |
Your Ancestral SurnamesFor those of us who live in former colonies, our ancestors were obviously not native to our current lands. It's interesting to know the origins of your family surnames, because it gives you an idea where your family came from.Here are some of mine: Valenzuela - (Spanish) Owens - (Welsh) Villagran - (Spanish) Mitchell - (Scottish) Davis - (Welsh) Teran - (Spanish) Colbert - (French) Lujan - (Spanish) What are yours? |
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| Deborah |
Brooks – England (I’ve also found one source that says it derived from a name that came over with William the Conqueror, hence from France)
Thompson – England, Scotland Bentley – England Hubble – England MacFaddon (not sure about spelling) – Ireland Dwyer – Ireland Rose – England (but this ancestor was Jewish, so it could have been a shortening of something Germanic-Jewish, such as Rosenberg) I also have a Native American ancestor, but I don't recall his name. |
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| Lazar |
Dovaston: Wales (possibly derived from the name of a Norman count)
Pryce: Wales Roberts: Wales (a Welsh Gypsy surname in this case) Gangursky: Jewish (Bessarabia) Shulman: Jewish (Ukraine) Manning: Ireland Brown: Scotland |
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| Porthos |
The name "Brown" is an example of many overlapping Scottish-English names, that can be either a lowland Scots name, or an English name. Many names of northern English origin and southern Scottish origin share the same etymology as both these peoples, from the 13th century onward spoke descendants of Northumbrian English, which itself evolved from a northern Anglic variety, whereas southern Englishmen spoke something more similar to a Mercian variety. |
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| Uriel |
Cabral -- Portuguese
Medeiros -- Portuguese Alvernaz -- Portuguese Silva -- Portuguese (but also occurs in Spanish and Italian) Hirsch -- German Hatcher -- Scottish Pace -- Scottish (?) -- some kind of British, anyway Supposedly there's some Irish in the woodpile, too, but I don't know the names associated. |
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| fab |
As far I know (I had to ask my parents for some), these are the name of my ancestors.
Le Moigne (France - Brittany) Lopes (Portugal) Duchamp (France ) Graff (Alsace or Germany) Delmas (France - Toulouse region) Bertereau (France - Loire valley) Besson (France - Lyon region) |
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| Deborah |
Are the regions listed simply because they are where your ancestors are from or are these names also associated with those regions? I once saw a website where you could look up an English surname and see its distribution on a map of England. |
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| fab |
both, at least in some case. I'm not sure for Duchamp if it is tipical from a particular region.
We have a site where you can see the distribution of family names following the location: http://nom-de-famille.linternaute.com/ "Le Moigne" is very tipically a name from Britanny (names with "LE XXX", are a trademark of Britanny origin) "Delmas" is a tipical name from the center-south. "Graff" is a German name. I'm not sure about the origin of that great-grand-father, he was french-born, in Paris - my familiy suppose he would have origins in Alsace, but maybe Germany (at that time Alsace was not definitly part of france). nowoday most names in Alsace still are German names. "besson" i discover from this site that it was more spread in central-eastern regions - where my grandmother is actually originary (macon regions, close to Lyon) |
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| Daniel |
Ondiz (Basque, by way of the Philippines and Mexico)
McManus (Irish) Docherty (Irish) Old (English?) Binarao (indigenous Filipino) more... |
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| André in Zuid-Afrika |
Interesting, didn't know that. We have a town called Delmas. |
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| Uriel |
I didn't know that. I always think of any thing with "Le ____" as French, of course, but I never narrowed it down to a particular region. There's a Macon, Georgia -- that seems like a typically southern name, to me, but that's probably just from association. (And with all the Lafayettes sprinkled across the south, plus all the place-names in Louisiana, French and the south go pretty hand-in-hand for me. As well as in parts of the northeast and upper midwest, where you also see a lot of French names.) |
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| Joanne |
Canoy (English, by way of the Philippines. Weird...)
Farrell (Irish) Hayashi (Japanese) Llanto (Spanish, by way of the Philippines) Proulx (French, by way of Louisiana) Trahan (Ditto) Wyatt (English) Yu (Chinese, by way of the Philippines) None of these are my surname, by the way 
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Re: Your Ancestral Surnames
This is also true for a very large percentage of Europeans. Bridgman — English (variant of 'Bridgeman') White — English/Scottish/Irish Holland — Irish (from 'Ó hÓileáin', meaning 'wolf') or English/Scottish/German/Dutch/Danish/Jewish (referring to the Dutch province) True — English (varient of 'Trow') Pinnock — English Harris — English/Welsh or Irish (from 'Ó hEarchadha') Schlork — German |
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| fab |
" For those of us who live in former colonies "
a lot of countries in the world were former colonies of other countries/kingdoms/empires, not just the American countries. " our ancestors were obviously not native to our current lands. " As Benjamin said, it is also the case of a lot of Europeans. The question is mainly in "from when you consider a person to be 'native' ?". After how generations are we considered to be "native" ? One generation, one century, 5 centuries, one millenium ? ... generally speaking I hate the expression "français de souche" (native french), since it not means much... all the different people that melted to form the country were not "native". |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Indeed. There is also the problem that, in Europe, these sorts of things are often emphasised by the far-right. For example, the British National Party, which is the main far-right political party in the UK, believe that they are the 'native population of the British Isles', which they believe (erronously, in my view) that their ancestors have inhabited for the past 40,000 years. As a result, they want to deport all non-white people from Britain back to their 'homelands', and enforce an immediate end to all non-white immigration into the UK. Of course, what they forget is that they speak the language that they speak essentially because 'Germans' migrated here about 1,500 years ago. Seriously though, I doubt that there is anyone in England who can honestly say that all their ancestors over the past, say, 300 years were also from England. I can't even say that for the past 80 years, neither can most people I know. And actually, my mother wasn't born in England (or anywhere in Europe) either. |
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| Uriel |
Nowhere did he restrict that statement to the Americas. It would apply equally to Andre's country or to our long-lost Antipodean (ex-) posters, as well as to many other countries. It just tends to be more glaringly obvious in those places than it is in places like Europe. Don't know much about Europe, but here you can be American born and bred, but you will never be a native unless you are wearing that indian blanket. No matter how long your family has been here, you are always conscious of your foreign origins. That's why we tend to have layered identities (country/race/ethnicity). THere are those who eschew their roots and put down "American" as their ethnicity, but no one really takes them seriously -- or we assume they simply may not know much about their ancestry.
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| Julian |
France:
Allègre, Arnaud, Bérenguier, Bousquet, Carbonnel, Gaillard Italy: Bacigalupi, Giannascoli, Rossi England: Parker, Simons, Smith Scotland: Auchinleck, Hawick, Reid |
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| Julian |
A bit of trivia: Delmas - Occitan del, "of the" + mas, smallholding, tenant-farm, farmhouse, hamlet. Variants Daumas, Doumas, Dumas. |
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| Daniel |
The same goes for the Philippines.
Although my mum's Filipino side of the family have been in the Philippines for a long time they're not native to that archipelago because they are Malay in origin! The languages they speak are evidently Malay (I mean they belong to the same linguistic family as Malay and Indonesian). The ancestors of modern Philippine people came from either China or the Malaysian peninsula. The original inhabitants of the Philippines before the arrival of the Malays were indigenous pygmy Aborigines (of which there are now around 50,000 remaining). I wonder if the word "native" means anyone who FIRST got a piece of land? If we go by that definition then the pygmy Aborigines would be the native of the Philippines and my mum's Filipino ancestors would be simply Malay immigrants. The rest of the Philippine people are either Chinese, Mexican, and Spanish. Or mestizos (Chinese-Filipinos, or Mexican-Filipinos and Spanish-Filipinos). Apparently, sexy Enrique Iglesias's mother is a Spanish-Filipino mestizo. Like my Mum! |
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| Deborah |
I've always liked the name Bacigalupi (and its spelling variations). |
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| Porthos |
Once again, Uriel darling, you get me!
What she said. ^ |
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| fab |
what bother me in the "USA ethnicity thinking" is when it is applied to Europe (and it is often since most Americans have ancestors there).
The wrong thinking of a lot of Americans is to assume that European peoples are perfect/pure "ethnicities" - all thought to have all their ancestors in the place since ever... I discover that a lot of Americans have difficulties to understand that a country like France for example has been (and was always in the past) being formed by metissage of diverses non-native people. America doesn't have this specificity. I remember when I was in student exchange in USA, we were a group of french people, one of the girls was asian-looking french and a guy was a black-skinned french. the American students seemed suprised and had difficulties to recognise them as french. |
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| Joanne |
That's not just Americans, Fab. Whenever I leave the US, people are always surprised when I first tell them I'm American. When I ask them why, they say because I'm not white or black, like the Americans they see on television and in the movies.
And because I'm not fat, like their newspapers insist all Americans are....
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| Uriel |
We all have our cherished preconceptions, right?
I think I remember reading some Asian-American's account of being in Australia, and having people tell her they had never heard an American accent come out of an Asian before -- that concept just blew them away. But I think you're right -- people forget we have them, too. |
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| Julian |
You've heard of Bacigalupi before? I thought it was pretty rare outside of Liguria and Southeastern France. Or are you a connoisseur of fine wines?
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| Uriel |
[quote="Porthos"][quote="Uriel"]
What's always funny is we're usually the only two on our wavelength! 
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| Deborah |
In the 1950s, there were still a fair amount of Italians immigrating to San Francisco, and I lived in a neighborhood that was still largely Italian. |
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| Porthos |
[quote="Uriel"][quote="Porthos"]
Lol. It does seem that way doesn't it? |
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| Elaine |
Montalvo - Spanish (but also can be Portuguese or Italian)
Echeverría - Spanish (of Basque origin - Etxeberria) Bustos - Spanish Quiñones - Spanish Pereira - Galician-Portuguese Klee - German Müller/Molnár - German/Hungarian |
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| Uriel |
Like Molinar, in Spanish? | ||||||
| Elaine |
Isn't that something? I used to think that "Molnár" was some regional variant of the Spanish Molinar (Molina, Molinera, Molineda, etc.) But turns out it's Hungarian! |
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| Liz |
Yeah, it's a relatively common Hungarian name. No-one's called Molnár in my family but I know quite a few Molnárs.
The Hungarian word "molnár", which means "miller", is taken from Slavic languages, but it's a loanword in Slavic languages, too, being originally a word of Latinate origin (molinarus). So, your presumtion that it is some regional variant of the Spanish "molinar" isn't that far from truth. By the way, does anyone know anything about the origin of the name "Tima"? That's my mother's family name. All I know about this part of my family that they are of Spanish ancestry and were settled in Transilvania a long time ago. |
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| fab |
The list of the most common names of french people
1. Martin 235846 31. Legrand 49455 2. Bernard 105132 32. Garnier 48973 3. Dubois 95998 33. Faure 48699 4. Thomas 95387 34. Rousseau 48698 5. Robert 91393 35. Blanc 48108 6. Richard 90689 36. Guerin 47981 7. Petit 88318 37. Muller 46841 8. Durand 84252 38. Henry 46229 9. Leroy 78868 39. Roussel 45771 10. Moreau 78177 40. Nicolas 45351 11. Simon 76655 41. Perrin 44900 12. Laurent 75307 42. Morin 44585 13. Lefebvre 74564 43. Mathieu 43850 14. Michel 74318 44. Clement 43725 15. Garcia 68720 45. Gauthier 42516 16. David 61762 46. Dumont 42396 17. Bertrand 59817 47. Lopez 42214 18. Roux 59440 48. Fontaine 41763 19. Vincent 57351 49. Chevalier 41021 20. Fournier 57047 50. Robin 41002 21. Morel 56760 51. Masson 40750 22. Girard 55642 52. Sanchez 40680 23. Andre 55228 53. Gerard 40467 24. Lefevre 53670 54. Nguyen 40100 25. Mercier 53622 55. Boyer 39907 26. Dupont 53405 56. Denis 39671 27. Lambert 51543 57. Lemaire 39538 28. Bonnet 50999 58. Duval 39267 29. Francois 50612 59. Joly 38731 30. Martinez 49762 60. Gautier 38162 among those most common names we notice names of non-french origin : Garcia is the 15th most common name in France - which means that there are more "Garcia" than "Legrand", "Mercier", "Gauthier", "Lambert", "Rousseau", etc. the following names of non-french origin are Martinez (30th), Muller(37th) thanks to Alsace, Lopez (47th), Sanchez (52th), NGuyen(54th). concerning our new president, he also have a non-french name. I'm asking myself is it is something that happened in other democraties to have leaders with "foreign" names, or names in minoritary languages ? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Benjamin Disraeli (originally Benjamin d'Israeli, actually) was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom first in 1868, and then from 1874 to 1880. However, I'd argue that it wasn't really a 'democracy' then, because women could not vote. He was of Italian Jewish descent, although he was actually baptised in the Church of England. And actually, Michael Howard, leader of the Conservative Party from 2003 to 2005, was originally called Michael Hecht, as he is Jewish of Romanian descent. However, he changed his name. |
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| Joanne |
The current president of Mexico, Vicente Fox Quesada comes to mind...  I think some of his grandparents were from the US and were of German and Irish descent.
Another recent one is Alberto Fujimori, president of Peru from 1990 - 2000. His parents were Japanese, but they emigrated to Peru in the 1930s before he was born. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
Another example would be Néstor Kirchner, the current President of Argentina. | ||||||
| Uriel |
The only Argentinean I know is named Fiszbein -- they tend to have a lot of Italians and Germans, and not be nearly as ethnically hispanic as other South Americans.
I'm surprised that the most popular surname in France is Martin, of all things! Of course, that name is found in so many languages, with occasional variations in pronunciation.... |
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| Elaine |
Well, we've had quite a few Presidents with Scottish, Irish, or Scots-Irish names-- Buchanan, Polk, McKinley, Kennedy, Reagan-- but I don't know whether we can consider those foreign or minority languages. We've had three with Dutch names: Van Buren, Roosevelt, and Roosevelt. And one German name: Eisenhower (originally Eisenhauer). On the Vice Presidential front, there's the Scottish Calhoun and the Greek Spiros Anagnostopoulos, otherwise known as Spiro Agnew. If Barack Obama were to be elected President, now that would be the most foreign sounding presidential name to date! |
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| Porthos |
The Scots-Irish in America have been here since before the revolution, and they're about as American as Apple Pie. So, I wouldn't include them as foreign, just because they're not English names. If you combined all of the Scots-Irish, Scots, Welsh, and Germans in the country in 1776, you would find that their combined numbers come very close to that of the total English-American population. Besides, America is a nation of immigrants, and has historically absorbed immigrants from much more diverse backgrounds then say, Mexico. |
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| fab |
I don't think so. I don't see how you could be of more diverse backgrounds than Spaniards and the indegenous amerindians from Mexico. to which we should had various other European and middle eastern people, some africans, a few Asians... you make a mestizaje of todos, And there are "la raza" called Mexicans. |
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| Porthos |
The overwhleming majority of Mexicans are of some sort of combination of Spanish and native Amerindian. The vast majority of immigrants from around the world came from Spain, where only a small minority came from anywhere else, so that the ethnic diversity among immigrants is very little. Compare that to the U.S., where we have a fair share of immigrants from many different countries. Rather than something like 95% of our immigrants coming from one country like Spain, there is something closer to an equal distribution of immigrants from a wide range of countries, including England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Ulster, Germany, Poland, Italy, Scandanavia, Russia, Japan, China, Africa, and Latin America. There is only a very, very small minority of Asians and Blacks in Mexico. There is a small minority of Europeans of another ancestry other than Spanish. In Mexico, nearly everyone you meet will have a Spanish surname, whereas in the U.S., surnames abound from nearly every origin, with no single nationality or ethnic group laying claim to the majority of surnames in the nation. |
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| Elaine |
Top 100 Most Common Surnames in the U.S. (per 1990 census, sorry couldn't find a more recent list):
Rank Name Population 1. Smith - 2,772,200 2. Johnson - 2,232,100 3. Williams - 1,926,200 4. Jones - 1,711,200 5. Brown - 1,711,200 6. Davis - 1,322,700 7. Miller - 1,168,400 8. Wilson - 934,200 9. Moore - 859,800 10. Taylor - 857,000 11. Anderson - 857,000 12. Thomas - 857,000 13. Jackson - 854,200 14. White - 768,800 15. Harris - 757,800 16. Martin - 752,300 17. Thompson - 741,300 18. Garcia - 699,900 19. Martinez - 644,800 20. Robinson - 642,100 21. Clark - 636,500 22. Rodriguez - 631,000 23. Lewis - 622,800 24. Lee - 606,200 25. Walker - 603,500 26. Hall - 551,100 27. Allen - 548,400 28. Young - 531,800 29. Hernandez - 529,100 30. King - 523,600 31. Wright - 520,800 32. Lopez - 515,300 33. Hill - 515,300 34. Scott - 509,800 35. Green - 504,300 36. Adams - 479,500 37. Baker - 471,200 38. Gonzalez - 457,400 39. Nelson - 446,400 40. Carter - 446,400 41. Mitchell - 440,900 42. Perez - 427,100 43. Roberts - 421,600 44. Turner - 418,900 45. Phillips - 410,600 46. Campbell - 410,600 47. Parker - 402,300 48. Evans - 388,500 49. Edwards - 377,500 50. Collins - 369,300 51. Stewart - 366,500 52. Sanchez - 358,200 53. Morris - 344,500 54. Rogers - 338,900 55. Reed - 336,200 56. Cook - 330,700 57. Morgan - 325,200 58. Bell - 322,400 59. Murphy - 322,400 60. Bailey - 316,900 61. Rivera - 311,400 62. Cooper - 311,400 63. Richardson - 308,600 64. Cox - 303,100 65. Howard - 303,100 66. Ward - 297,600 67. Torres - 297,600 68. Peterson - 294,900 69. Gray - 292,100 70. Ramirez - 289,300 71. James - 289,300 72. Watson - 283,800 73. Brooks - 283,800 74. Kelly - 281,100 75. Sanders - 275,600 76. Price - 272,800 77. Bennett - 272,800 78. Wood - 270,100 79. Barnes - 267,300 80. Ross - 264,500 81. Henderson - 261,800 82. Coleman - 261,800 83. Jenkins - 261,800 84. Perry - 259,000 85. Powell - 256,300 86. Long - 253,500 87. Patterson - 253,500 88. Hughes - 253,500 89. Flores - 253,500 90. Washington - 253,500 91. Butler - 250,800 92. Simmons - 250,800 93. Foster - 250,800 94. Gonzales - 239,700 95. Bryant - 239,700 96. Alexander - 234,200 97. Russell - 234,200 98. Griffin - 231,500 99. Diaz - 231,500 100. Hayes - 228,700 |
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| Daniel |
I'm aware of the fact that there's a significant number of Filipinos living in Mexico. And I mean the ones that have been in Mexico since the start of the Spanish control of the archipelago. | ||||||
| Elaine |
Yes of course, but I wasn't talking about ethnicity or national origin, I was talking about language. Since English is the dominant language of the US, I was questioning whether we would even consider such non-English names to be "foreign". If not, then what about the Spanish, the French, the Italians, and other non-Anglo Saxons who were also here since before the revolution? Do you consider such names as García, Lefebvre, and Berlusconi foreign or are they "as American as Apple Pie"? |
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| Loic |
With respect to people with 'foreign names' becoming head of governments of their respective countries, I feel that Nicolas Sarkozy, Nestor Kirchner, etc do not really count if you consider that their Christian names are perfectly typical of their countrymen.
I do not even consider Alberto Fujimori to be particularly foreign for Peru. Which Japanese statesman would be such a git by calling himself Alberto on the world stage? Even if I was unaware of his background, I'd have guessed that he was from a Spanish-speaking country. The true test would be to pose this question to someone without any knowledge of world politics and ask him to guess the nationality of that politician. Barack Obama, if elected, would be a particularly good candidate: he'd stump many people if they do not know better. Does anyone know where these politicians come from? 1. Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen 2. Estanislau da Silva 3. Jose dos Santos |
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| fab |
In the new governement 7 members (over 2O) have non-"french sounding" names
Borloo Darcos Rachida Dati Hirsch Karoutchi Kouchner Woerth Concerning the most common American names I must say that they are about what I expected - to me "very American" names. I notice that the first "non-Anglo" name is Garcia (17th), that funny because in France the first non-french name is also Garcia (12th). Maybe that now the hispanic names are more at the top of the list I think.
yes, but "native Amerindians" were not one unique people but probably as diverse as Europeans. I think this is probable that first immigrants form Europe changed their names to Spanish names, as it has been at some time in the US - so now it is difficult to know were they are from.
yes, but globally speaking, most mexican are born from a meet of two very different "etnic groups", coming from two different continents, while the US have been for a long time a majoritary "European" country, maybe it still be today (I don't know the numbers). to my opinion Mexico is more ethnically mixed than US, but the main difference is you don't notice it because the different populations have known deep mestisaje in Mexico (which give us now the impressinon that Mexican are a relatively homogenous people, while in the US the different "ethnicities" have largely survived as appart entities.
this is not at all what says the list. To my experience when meetiing American people (we have also afew of them at my work), they all have very English/british sounding names. When I think of famous American people, the huge majority of them have English/British names. if we had other names of Germanic origins (which to us seem similar to English ones) I think that it is really a majority. having immigrants from all over the world is not an American specificity - but is the reality of all developed nations. If I give you the list of the neigbours who live in my building you'll realize it. |
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| Daniel |
Yes, just like the Philippines. At first impression, the Filipinos all look alike because they have dark hair, dark skin and dark eyes. However, they are much more mixed ethnically than you think. Many of them are of Malay origin with some Chinese ancestry and to a lesser extent, Mexican and Spanish, too. The majority of them have mixed native ethnic blood. For example, my Mother is mixed Tagalog and Bicolano (two of the native Philippine ethnic groups) and her friend is Kapampangan, Ilocano and Cebuano (three more Philippine ethnic groups). The differences between these ethnic groups are usually apparent in their appearance. For example, Bicolanos are said to look slightly more Chinese, with a rounder face and a smaller nose, than Tagalogs, who have broader facial features. This is because the ancestors of modern Bicolanos were said to originally come from China (although they speak a Malayo-Polynesian language, and not a Sino-Tibetan one!) whereas the Tagalog ancestors were said to be from the Malaysian Peninsula. Then there's the several Negrito tribes (often known as Agta, Aeta, Ita, Ayta, etc.) who look more African in appearance (although they are not related to the Africans) but much, much shorter and have very short, crinkly hair. Their origin remains unknown and is often disputed by anthropologists because they have abandoned their own indigenous languages and adopted the Philippine languages (like Tagalog, Cebuano, Waray-Waray, Hiligaynon, etc.). They are considered to be the Aborigines of the Philippines. |
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| Uriel |
Fab, you can't always go by last names as a good indicator of ethnicity in the US, because people are of such mixed ancestries, yet only get one last name. Our governor is as Mexican as the next guy, but his name is Bill Richardson. One of Las Cruces's recent mayors was a Smith -- but his first name was Ruben. And he was always sure to include the accent over the E. I have noticeably hispanic friends inexplicably stuck with last names like Prislan and Clark. (On the flip side, I'm pretty white-looking and white-acting, but my last name looks completely hispanic! And my completely white mother still goes by it, too.)
A lot of people also modified or anglicized their names in the past -- our head cook at work (another Mexican with a funny name) is named King -- but it was originally Konig (his father was German and Polish). It was changed during WWII. I had a half-Russian, half-Japanese friend whose name was Nikolan -- that was simply cut down from a much longer Russian name (probably ending in -ovitch -- Just like singer Ritchie "Valens" was really a Valenzuela.) Others simply translated what their names meant into a convenient English equivalent -- Goldwasser became Goldwater, Schwartz became Black, Kovacs became Smith, Szabo became Taylor (tailor). Many Pueblo Indians have Spanish names now, and most blacks have English names -- despite having little ethnic connection. I have a Filipino friend named Villanueva and another named Blume. As you can imagine, most of my half-Asian schoolmates had boring English last names, although their first names were often Taeko or Kenji or Hiroshi. So it does get more complicated than the actual names might suggest.... |
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| Deborah |
And some people's names were anglicized or outright changed by the immigration officials during the massive immigrations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. An example is the last name of one of my former roommates, who was Canadian. Her last name is Smith, and when I asked her whether she was of English ancestry on both sides of her family, she replied that she wasn't English on either side of the family. The "Smith" side was something like "Olchomski" when they came from Poland, but her ancestor didn't know how to spell it in English, and the person who processed his papers just wrote "Smith". |
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| Deborah |
Garcia is the most common Spanish name in France and the US; not surprisingly, the most common surname in Spain is Garcia. As for the most common surname in the world, some sources I came across say it's Li, and others say it's Chang or Zhang. In any case, it's Chinese.
I was surprised to see that my surname (Brooks) was #73 on Elaine's list of U.S. names, because I was in my 50s before I met another person (outside of my family) with that name, and even then, it was spelled "Brookes". |
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| Loic |
Since the French Open is in full swing now, Michael Chang springs to mind! 
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| Porthos |
True, for instance, my friend's last name is "Ball", and you would assume it's English, but her name was originally spelled "Bahl", and is actually a German name.
As of 1776, the ethnic composition of whites in America was something close to this, although the figures are subject to debate: 1.2 million English 300,000 Scots-Irish 250,000 Germans 250,000 Welsh, Scots, and Irish Over the next 225 years, America received more global immigration than any other country in the modern world. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
According to the 2000 census, the most commonly stated primary ancestries amongst white people in the United States were:
15.2% — German 12.3% — Irish or Scots-Irish _8.7% — English _7.2% — American _5.6% — Italian _3.2% — Polish _3.0% — French _1.7% — Scottish _1.6% — Dutch _1.6% — Norwegian _1.4% — Swedish _0.9% — Russian _0.8% — French Canadian So essentially, I think it's a bit of a myth that most 'white' people in the United States are mainly of British descent. Looking at the list of the top ten most common surnames in the United States, many can also be anglicised versions of German surnames, since many German immigrants anglicised their names. For example: 1. Smith — Schmidt 2. Johnson — Johansohn 3. Williams — Willheims 4. Jones — Johannes 5. Brown — Braun 6. Davis — ? 7. Miller — Müller 8. Wilson — Willsohn 9. Moore — Moor? 10. Taylor — Schneider |
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| Uriel |
Well, WE knew it was a myth all along.
Kind of surprised to think that other people might take it seriously, since our massive waves of immigration are no big secret.... |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
The most common surnames in England and Wales are:
1. Smith 2. Jones 3. Williams 4. Taylor 5. Brown 6. Davies 7. Evans 8. Wilson 9. Thomas 10. Johnson And in Scotland: 1. Smith 2. Brown 3. Wilson 4. Campbell 5. Stewart 6. Thomson 7. Robertson 8. Anderson 9. MacDonald 10. Scott And in Ireland: 1. Murphy 2. Kelly 3. O'Sullivan 4. Walsh 5. Smith 6. O'Brien 7. Byrne 8. Ryan 9. O'Connor 10. O'Neil And in Germany: 1. Müller ('miller') 2. Schmidt ('smith') 3. Schneider ('taylor') 4. Fischer ('fisher') 5. Meyer ('major') 6. Weber ('weaver') 7. Schulz ('mayor') 8. Wagner ('builder of wagons') 9. Becker ('baker') 10. Hoffmann ('farmer') And in the Netherlands: 1. De Jong ('the young') 2. De Vries ('the Frisian') 3. Jansen 4. Van den Berg / Van der Berg / Van de Berg 5. Bakker ('baker') 6. Van Dijk ('from Dijk', i.e. VanDyke) 7. Visser ('fisher') 8. Janssen 9. Smit ('smith') 10. Meijer / Meyer ('major') |
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| Deborah |
I don't know who you mean by "we" (Americans? langcafeinos? well-read people?), but I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who still believe that Americans of British extraction are the largest group. |
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| Pauline |
And in the Netherlands
1. De Jong ('the young') 2. De Vries ('the Frisian') 3. Jansen 4. Van den Berg / Van der Berg / Van de Berg oxymoron LOL!!! "from the mountain" in the Netherlands ; this person definitly was immigrant
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| fab |
of course, this is also the same in France. Having a french name does'nt mean that all the ancestor's of the person were french - or inversely. My own name is portuguese, but most of my ancestors are french.
Mmm... I'll say more tha he would be an American who happened to have Mexican ancestors. To a Mexican from Mexico your governor would be seen as a "gringo". the names doesn't say always much about "ancestry", but generally say quite much to the actual pertenancy. actually, concerning Mexicans, most of them have Spanish names, even those who have not (or few) Spanish ancestry. Concerning the anglicization of names that is not a American specificity, a lot of famous french celebrities, with very french names are actually of foreign origins : for exemple the actor Yves Montand was born Italian Edith Piaf's mother was of Italian and Algerian origins. [/quote] |
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| Porthos |
I think she is at least referring to her and I, who have been claiming that Fab's perception is wrong all along. |
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| Elaine |
I was wondering... (and this question goes out to my fellow Americans), are there some Anglo-Saxon-origin surnames that when you read or hear that name before you associate it with a face, you immediately picture someone who's black? For instance, when I come across the names Washington, King, Jackson, and Jenkins I think of those names as stereotypically African-American.
And apparently, I'm not the only one: http://www.iht.com/articles/1998/02/19/topics.t_15.php |
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| Elaine |
How interesting that in the most populous Spanish-speaking country in the world García only ranks second.
1. Hernandez - 5,526,929 2. García - 4,129,360 3. Martinez - 3,886,887 4. Gonzalez - 3,188,693 5. López - 3,148,024 6. Rodriguez - 2,744,179 7. Pérez - 2,746,468 8. Sánchez - 2,234,625 9. Ramirez - 2,070,723 10. Flores - 1,392,707 |
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| Porthos |
No, I agree. For instance, for every one white person I meet with my father's surname, I meet 5 black people with the same name. We must remember that as of 1776, there were 570,000 Blacks in America, almost all of whom had Anglo, or more precisely, British surnames. They also play a key role in distorting the figures for the most common surnames in the U.S., as out of 2.5 million Americans, over 500,000 were black, and all of their descendants carry Anglo names, although they're obviously not of British descent. |
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| Porthos |
Based on current population trends, in 50 years, Hispanic/Latino ethnic group will constitute over 50% of the U.S. population, with blacks remaining at about 12%, and Asians gaining little ground. | ||||||
| Deborah |
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| Porthos |
Read this article. Very informative - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immi...tion_and_immigration_1600-1790_AD | ||||||
| Uriel |
By "we" I meant Americans in general, since most of them would not themselves be of British ancestry. Although I think every citizen is at least 1/64th Irish.  (Just kidding. Only maybe not!)
Well, sure. Europe's a small place. I would imagine that every now and then somebody sneaks off with the neighbors! My last name is also Portuguese, but refers to place in France -- so there you go! Regarding the black thing, I meant to point out earlier that on Benjamin's list of most common stated US ethnicities, neither "black" not "hispanic" appear, even though both currently make up about 1/12 of the population -- probably because they get their own census categories. But if you were to insert them into that list, they'd be in the top five. (IF I'm doing my math right.) Our governor is as Mexican as the next guy, but his name is Bill Richardson.
Of course. Again with that "inaccurate" American shorthand -- we take Mexican-American as a given, and just shorten it to "Mexican". (In fact, around here, sometimes to talk about a REAL citizen of our good neighbor, we have to say, "He's a Mexican Mexican.")
(Those of you who have giggled through the Latin Kings of Comedy may see the parallel with "Oh, you mean right now right now?"  )
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| Joanne |
You know, I think you're right! And their surnames have incredible staying power, even when their descendants don't look anything Irish!
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| Loic |
A Washington would strike me as being someone of African descent. I suppose Denzel Washington has coloured my perception of this surname, notwithstanding that a more famous George Washington was of British extraction.
If I see a Mr Jackson on a census form, I'd probably prematurely conclude him as being another Afro-American as well. Think of Samuel L Jackson and of course, Michael Jackson (who is maybe neither black nor white at any rate). Jenkins has no such connotations for me. I suppose it has a lot to do with the late Roy Jenkins who was a former European Commissioner for Britain. He was Welsh. In Singapore, there are also many surnames which we would associate with a certain ethnicity. I would not talk of the patently obvious here; rather, I'd mention surnames of Iberian extraction who almost invariably would belong to members of a community that look as unIberian as possible. There are many Pereiras here and in my mind, a Pereira is invariably a bony-faced matron who is a dark-skinned Indian and who probably wears a rosary around her neck. Ditto for the D'Cruz, the de Souzas, the Gomez, the da Silvas, the Conceicaos, the Monteiros as well as the Enriquez. All of them are probably racially Indian, but due to a quirk of history, they are racially classified as Eurasians. Benjamin mentioned the Meyers as a rather common German surname. In Singapore, the Meyers family are a prominent cricketing family: the poor man's Pollocks if you consider that the Pollocks are an illustrious cricketing family in South Africa. I distantly know a Meyer in Singapore who is an opening batsman for the national side's starting IX. His father also played state cricket for Singapore. Those of Portuguese surnames here can pass off as Indians. Those of Dutch or British surnames are a slightly different case: often, people of Dutch descent here can still look rather Caucasian despite generations of inter-marriage. The Dutch-Eurasians are not as numerous as their Portuguese counterparts, but they are prominent enough to punch above their weight. For the moment, the only relatively common Dutch surnames here that spring to mind are the van Cuylenbergs as well as the Koekmans. British Eurasians can usually pass off as Chinese except that they tend to have pink skin tones and maybe somewhat rounder eyes. I personally know a McIntyre and a Shepherdson back at school who were always being teased for their surnames ("Why do Chinese have Western surnames," we'd jeer). Unlike the Portuguese or Dutch Eurasians, they are usually not Catholic but Anglicans. No doubt, these chaps probably led a privileged existence back during colonial times. As for the most common surname here, it is actually mine (read: Tan). I once read that one out of every 10 Chinese here is a Tan. This is not counting related surnames which use the same Chinese character but are romanised differently because of different dialectal pronunciations of what is essentially the same word e.g. Chan, Chin, Chen, Tang. |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
I'm not surprised — I used to have fairly regular contact with a number of people from Singapore (and also Hong Kong, and to some extent Malaysia, Taiwan and Macau) when I was more into collecting Sylvanian Families. Many of them had the surname 'Tan', often with a somewhat old-fashioned-sounding English or other Western name first name. |
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| Elaine |
Sure. Bobo Jenkins, Leroy Jenkins, Horace Jenkins (Detroit Pistons), and Lester, Mary, and Brenda Jenkins. 
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| Loic |
Lol. I remember. They are all called 'James', right? |
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| Benjamin [inactive] |
About half the boys of Chinese descent in England that I know are called James. Actually, I know about five people called either James Li or James Lee. There's website (hasn't been updated for years, but still exists) that's owned by two woman from Macau — called Sylvia and Pricilla. Or at least I assume that they were two people, because they essentially seemed to operate as a single unit. Unfortunately, I lost contact with most of those people when the internet Sylvanian collecting community became more 'regionalised'. This was essentially because what was the most popular English language site at the time was actually based in Hong Kong, and without much warning, it suddenly went Chinese almost overnight. I think the original plan was for it to be a bilingual website, but the English section was gradually removed/neglected, so the non Chinese speakers left the forum there in favour of the one on my (now closed) website. It was mostly fun... well sort of. |
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| Uriel |
Ben, if you're a Christian and you ain't Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, you're Protestant. It's sort of a catch-all term. That said, yeah, there's a lot of diversity between the different denominations, and even denominations that aren't strictly accepted by other Protestants, like the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witness -- there is even debate over whether or not they can even be considered Christian.
I think you have a pretty good handle on things, Fab. I agree with all of your points. I know one indicator of pre-census European intra-migration was simply the use of place-names as surnames, to indicate origin. Since surnames were mostly designed to be descriptive AND tell people apart, you usually only adopted a place-name if it set you apart. In other words, people in London didn't normally name themselves "John (of) London", since every other John for miles would have the same name. You only took a name like that if you were far, far away from London, and your origin became a unique identifying characteristic. Think of all those people named Lunden, York, Gallegos, Madrid, Ireland, Lombardi -- I bet a lot of them were displaced! |
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