langcafe2.myfreeforum.org

Fredrik · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject:

Benjamin wrote:

Porthos · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject:

Fredric,
Once again, I could't agree with you more. You always seem to share a similar opinion with me.

<<But don't tell me that Britons and Danes look the same, because they don't. Britons look like a nation of swarthy dwarfs compared to the Danes>>

Here's my take on the matter, and it is just a generalization, so don't read into it further than that, as if I'm trying to say all of these people fit perfectly into this profile. But, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish people do generally look different from say, Danes. They're not called "silkies' for no reason. Think of same famous Celtic people you know. Sean Connery, Clive Owen, Collin Farrel, Ioan Gruffud, Catherine Zeta-Jones, etc. I don't think any of them could pass for a Scandanavian, and if they did, they would be a rare find in a place like Denmark. Also, blond hair is extremely common among the Dutch and Scandanavians, but not nearly as much as among the English, and especially, those of the Celtic fringe. On the other hand, brown hair and red hair is a lot more common in Britain than it is in Scandanavia.

Benjamin,
Honestly, from your pic, you look like a stereotypical Briton. If I saw you on the street, and I had to guess what your nationality was, I would bank on the British Isles, not Germany, because the milky white complexion, and red hair is totally stereotypical British look.

The reason I take such an interest in the subject is mainly for historical purposes. I like to know where people came from, and how things got the way they did, so population movements are important to me. I'm trying to determine how many Anglo-Saxons actually arrived in Britain, and how many there were compared to remaining Celts in modern England.

I think the western, and especially, the south western part of modern England is predominantly inhabited by people of Celtic origin, because the Saxons made rapid progress in conquering these regions around the 700s. In this region, at that time in history, they claimed too much land at such a quick pace, that there is no way their settlers ending up outnumbering and displacing the people of this region.

If I had to guess, I would say the English look like a mix of Saxon and Celtic, but I have never actually been to England, so I can't say that for a certainty. There are some English like Keira Knightley who I might assume to be Celtic. I've met a couple of English families from the north of England, who almost talked with a brogue, and had Celtic features (dark hair, dark eyes, light skin).

Could you help me out with that Fredric? Do you think that Englishmen look more like continental Germanic people (Dutch, north Germans, Scandanavians) or more like Celtic peoples?

I know that historically, the English were supposedly taller than the Welsh, and that the Celts had dark features. The "black Irish", the "dark Welsh", the "silkies" etc. But, English are a little shorter than most Germanic speaking nations, and blondism is not as common either I don't think.
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Benjamin [inactive] · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:09 am Post subject:

Just of interest, Josh, what nationalities would you guess that the people in these photographs are? (Without looking at the web addresses).

1.

2.

Porthos · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:37 am Post subject:

I would say the first picture would be from the British Isles. Maybe Scottish or Irish. Perhaps, but less likely, English.

The second one is tough to say, because a lot of Germanic speaking peoples look so alike, but if I had to guess, I would say northern German or Dutch maybe? And "Dutch" also applies to Flemings, since they're basically the same. That would be my primary guess, but I'm probably wrong. Where are they from?
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Porthos · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:44 am Post subject:

I could very easily be wrong about the second pic, but the first one has definitely got to be from the Celtic Fringe (Ireland, Scotland, Wales), or they could possbibly be English. I say this because there is not one blond in the whole group, dark hair, and dark eyes predominate, and light complexions and northern European facial features. That is *classic* British Isles right there.

The second one is anybody's guess, but I'm sticking with Dutch/North German.
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Benjamin [inactive] · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:26 am Post subject:

You're more or less right. The first group are English, whilst the second are German.

I should say though that I don't remember noticing a higher percentage of people with blonde hair than in England when I was there earlier this year. The other difficulty, of course, is that so many people dye their hair blonde. The stereotypical 'German' look only really applies to a minority there.

You keep mentioning red-hair, but it's only a very small minority in England (5-10%, maybe). I remember noticing a similar percentage in Germany.

Icke · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:44 am Post subject:

Loic · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:

If I am not wrong, Roy Makaay, Robin van Persie, Giovanni van Bronckhorst as well as Johnny Heitinga all have Indonesian blood in them. Same goes for Danny Landzaat.

In Giovanni and Danny's case, though, they have Moluccan antecedents which is culturally as well as racially removed from the maintream Indonesian population with their large liquid eyes, copper skin and small frame. Moluccus was Dutch until the early 1970s when Indonesia forcibly annexed it as Irian Jaya.

That can well explain why some of the players you mentioned above have dark features.

Look at Rafael van der Vaart. I remembered seeing him blond before although his hair becomes progressively dark as winter approaches. But then again, he's not an archetypal Dutchman as his mum is a Spaniard.
_________________
Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.

Pauline · Guest

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Joris_Mathijsen.JPG

Porthos · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject:

Benjamin,

See! You can tell the differences between nationalities a lot of times. At least I can.

But, I'm begginning to think that the English look more like Celtic populations of the British Isles, than they do Germanic. Besides Keira Knightley, other famous English celebs like the Beatles, Orlando Bloom, etc. A lot of those people look very *Celtic*, and red hair is also more common in England than in any country in the world. Among Celtic populations red hair tends to be more common than blond hair, whereas in places like the Netherlands or Scandanavia blond hair is very common.
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

David · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject:

Benjamin [inactive] · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject:

Porthos · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:21 am Post subject:

I always thought that too, but according to some sources I read, England has the highest rate of red hair actually.

Actually, I looked up on Wiki, and it says the Scots have the highest rate of red hair. So, obviously one of the sources is wrong. Would you say that ginger hair is a lot more common in the Celtic fringe than in England?
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

fab · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:34 am Post subject:

Britanny or Galicia are consider to be "celtic countries", but actually red hair is very rare in these regions. I've been in Britanny a lot of times I have never seen a red-haired person there.

Josh, I think you make a wrong way to assume that "Celtic" relate to a specific physical description of people. 'Celtic' relates a a former group of various peoples who were living in most places of western Europe and were united by the fact of speaking related languages, that's all. People of Britanny and Scotland may be both considered as "celtic" and feel a same "atlantic cultural connexion", they mostly don't necesary look the same (they don't due to my experience in these places)

Porthos · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:55 am Post subject:

When I use "Celtic" as a general physical description, I'm only referring to the people of the British Isles, who generally share high rates of red hair, or dark features and light skin.
_________________
Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch

Benjamin [inactive] · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:51 am Post subject:

fab · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject:

I may be wrong but I think that red-hair id a genetic characteristic that have been developping in the north of the british isles more specificly, due maybe to the lack of sun, the natural skin protection was not necessary and has had tended to disappear.

I tend to think that Irish and Scotish may have a big proportion of red -hair people, and England, wales and cornwall a less since they are situated more southern.

I think that it has nothing with any "celtic" origins. Britain is not the most "celtic" place in a pure "historic/genetic" point of view. We have to remember that the celtic culture in Britain has foreign origins since it was coming from the continent.

Pauline · Guest

Sometimes you can find red-haired people in belgium, in wallonie and flanders. There's a family in my village who have red-hair, but it's unusual i think. I thought, that there was a connection between red-hair, very sun-sensitive-skin and celtic, but I'm not sure. Also, I thought, that the celtic people lived in all europe, before they have been forced to go (escape) to the extreme west.

fab · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject:

" Also, I thought, that the celtic people lived in all europe, before they have been forced to go (escape) to the extreme west. "

Yes, but the question can be "have celts relay escaped to the extreme west", or is it only the celtic languages that have survived to Romanic and germanic influences due to the geographical isolation of the extreme western Europe peninsulas that we consider today to be Celtic ? without huge and complete move of populations ? Or both phenomenons combined ?