Yes, but the problem is that "natively English-speaking" is a bit long expression, even if it has the positive point to be conceptually quite clear and quite unambiguous.
That's true; if we defined "Anglophony" in the same way they define "Francophony", then it would include India and Britain's former African colonies. The "Anglosphere" or "Anglo world" concept would be more restricted - basically the US, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand.
Then the Anglosphere, so defined (minus Québec of course), would exactly be what we call le monde anglo-saxon.
Anglosphere doesn't bother me any, and I think it's been in use for a lot longer than this book you're talking about, Benjamin -- which I've never even heard of. Anglosphere seems like a perfectly good decriptor to me -- I have no idea why people would be all touchy about it. _________________ An apple a day....
At least according to Wikipedia, which isn't necessarily reliable, but I've been unable to find any other reference for this...
Apparently, the term 'Anglosphere' is usually attributed to the science fiction author Neal Stephenson in his novel The Diamond Age, which was published in 1995. The novel is apparently about education, social class, cultural tribalism and artificial intelligence.
And then, the first time which the term 'Anglosphere' was published after this use was in 2000, in an article called 'Canada's World Advantage', by James C. Bennett (author of that book I mentioned above), in the Canadian newspaper The National Post.
I agree that the term 'Anglosphere' could be used simply to refer to any predominantly English-speaking society. Unfortunately, I feel that the term usually carries certain geopolitical and economic agendas with it, because most of the time when I've seen it used, it has been used in that context.
Another reason for why I do not feel able to use it is that it is not a sufficiently common word, at least where I live. No BBC reporter would use the term 'Anglosphere' without further explanation, and I would not expect most people here to immediately understand exactly what I meant if I were to use it in regular conversation.
Prior to perusing this thread, I must confess to an ignorance of 'Anglosphere' as a word. It seems to be of a rather dubious coinage to me.
However, I think most people would readily understand what it means even if they have never come across the word before. Benjamin, you might be deprecating the intelligence of your peers when you said, 'and I would not expect most people here to immediately understand exactly what I meant if I were to use it in regular conversation.'
Unless the people whom you come into regular contact with are really stupid.
The author of this word implies that a fully-fledged 'Anglosphere' country must necessarily be of British stock or possess ethnic elements which hail from the British Isles. Hence only the usual suspects need apply: the USA, UK, NZ (strictly pronounced as N-Zed), SA, Aus, etc.
On the other end of the spectrum, I always have to suppress a hollow laughter whenever I look at maps of La Francophonie in French language classrooms where the whole stretch of Canada is shaded as well as wide swarthes of Africa and the whole of Indochina.
I've visited Vietnam before and I think the percentage of French speakers in Britain would probably be highter than in Vietnam. On the other hand, Vietnam is still the only country in East Asia where one has the best chance of encountering a French speaker - this is not saying much, by the way.
However, Benjamin is wrong when he states that only a tiny percentage of Indians speak English natively. This is untrue: English is actually the dominant social as well as home language among upper-class Indians. In fact, anglicisation was even starker during the colonial period. The first Prime Minister of India spoke much better English than Hindustani.
I read a book about India where the author pointed out that the Indian lifestyle is actually superficially anglicised in many ways. They cling on to many British Empire comfort food such as Horlicks and Milo (which, incidentally, are Singaporean products, by the way) as well as Marmite (I never knew it was British as we also eat it here). They consume tea vociferously and play cricket as impeccably as the consummate English gentleman (This is rubbish as bribery has reared its ugly head in Indian cricket recently).
Based on the lifestyle of upper-class Indians, they make a strong case for inclusion in this cultural concept called the Anglosphere. In fact, I also read that an Indian officers' mess in a regiment nowadays is sometimes more British than the British itself. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
However, I think most people would readily understand what it means even if they have never come across the word before. Benjamin, you might be deprecating the intelligence of your peers when you said, 'and I would not expect most people here to immediately understand exactly what I meant if I were to use it in regular conversation.'
Unless the people whom you come into regular contact with are really stupid.
I don't think I'm deprecating their intelligence at all. I did not immediately understand what the term 'Anglosphere' meant when I first heard it out of the blue — I had seek further clarification. I did not know if it simply meant anywhere that is mainly English-speaking, or anywhere where most people are mainly of English/British descent, or anywhere that is believed to have certain similarities to England, or a combination of these. It certainly was not obvious to me whether or not the United States ought to be included, because I knew that most Americans are not primarily of English (or any kind of British Isles) descent.
loic wrote:
However, Benjamin is wrong when he states that only a tiny percentage of Indians speak English natively. This is untrue: English is actually the dominant social as well as home language among upper-class Indians. In fact, anglicisation was even starker during the colonial period. The first Prime Minister of India spoke much better English than Hindustani.
...
Based on the lifestyle of upper-class Indians, they make a strong case for inclusion in this cultural concept called the Anglosphere.
Upper-class Indians, yes. They constitute only a small minority of people in India (as in most countries). I accept that a small minority of Indians do have rather British-like lifestyles, but I still don't think that the entire country should be viewed in that way (which is arguably at least as diverse as the whole of Europe).
I don't think I'm deprecating their intelligence at all. I did not immediately understand what the term 'Anglosphere' meant when I first heard it out of the blue — I had seek further clarification. I did not know if it simply meant anywhere that is mainly English-speaking, or anywhere where most people are mainly of English/British descent, or anywhere that is believed to have certain similarities to England, or a combination of these. It certainly was not obvious to me whether or not the United States ought to be included, because I knew that most Americans are not primarily of English (or any kind of British Isles) descent.
I knew what it meant. The first time I encountered the word I immediately pictured a map in my mind, and saw the "Anglosphere" in its full vividity, encompassing the U.K., Anglo-Canada, the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand. And believe it or not, a very significant portion of the white population here are of at least partial British descent (of the British Isles). English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish names are some of the most common surnames in the U.S., especially outside major metropolitan areas like New York city which recieved the lion's share of immigration. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I knew what it meant. The first time I encountered the word I immediately pictured a map in my mind, and saw the "Anglosphere" in its full vividity, encompassing the U.K., Anglo-Canada, the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand.
And not Ireland? And this isn't meant as a racist statement, but I would actually say that I feel 'closer' to a black person from Barbados than to a black person from the United States — does that make sense?
I knew what it meant. The first time I encountered the word I immediately pictured a map in my mind, and saw the "Anglosphere" in its full vividity, encompassing the U.K., Anglo-Canada, the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand.
And not Ireland? And this isn't meant as a racist statement, but I would actually say that I feel 'closer' to a black person from Barbados than to a black person from the United States — does that make sense?
Yes that makes sense I guess. But it is interesting I didn't mention Ireland, although I thought about it. I intentionally ommited Ireland because as an American, I often think of Ireland as being seperate from the U.K. To me they are this underdog, a Catholic-Celtic nation that lived under English-Protestant tyranny and as such, should not be grouped in with England. And I know there is a lot of animosity toward the English in Ireland, so for some reason, I tend to categorize them differently, and I often don't think of Ireland when I think of the Anglo countries, even though English is now the first language of most Irish people. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I always lump Ireland in with the UK -- England, Ireland, Scotland: they're all the same to me. I grasp that politically there are differences, but I still think of them as fundamentally one people.
But like you, when I hear Anglosphere, I automatically think of all the predominately English-speaking countries -- actually ethnicity has nothing to do with it -- only language. I had never heard of any of these books before now, so it has no other (or negative) connotations for me. _________________ An apple a day....
Yes that makes sense I guess. But it is interesting I didn't mention Ireland, although I thought about it. I intentionally ommited Ireland because as an American, I often think of Ireland as being seperate from the U.K. To me they are this underdog, a Catholic-Celtic nation that lived under English-Protestant tyranny and as such, should not be grouped in with England. And I know there is a lot of animosity toward the English in Ireland, so for some reason, I tend to categorize them differently, and I often don't think of Ireland when I think of the Anglo countries, even though English is now the first language of most Irish people.
So do you actually think that England is more similar to California than to Ireland? As far as I'm concerned, to suggest that Ireland would not be part of the 'Anglosphere' is ridiculous.
Seriously, for me, being in Ireland is basically just like being in another part of Britain. I do not find Irish people and their lifestyle to be significantly different from British people on the whole — or rather, the differences I find are no more significant than between English and Scottish people. I cannot say the same about Americans compared to British people, however. There are many Irish people living in Britain, and there are many British people living in Ireland — although this has not always been the case, these days they integrate seamlessly and straight away.
As for there being a lot of animosity towards the English in the Republic of Ireland... times have changed. (Ireland has changed a lot in the past 20 years, actually). Although there may be a minority of (Republican) Irish people who hate the English (as in Scotland and Wales), a recent survey revealed that about 75% of people in the Republic of Ireland had a positive attitude towards the United Kingdom. Things are obviously rather different in Northern Ireland, however, but that issue is just one great big yawn for many people both in mainland Britain and in the Republic of Ireland these days.
But like you, when I hear Anglosphere, I automatically think of all the predominately English-speaking countries -- actually ethnicity has nothing to do with it -- only language
I have to say that I myself tend to strongly be opposed to the use of Anglo or Anglo-Saxon to refer to much of the white population in the US simply because the only thing that much of such has to do with England at all compared to much of the rest of western Europe is that they speak English and live in a society which developed outside much of the events in continental Europe since the French Revolution. This is particularly true here in the Midwest, where there really have never been any historical ties with England, unlike areas like New England and the South; from the perspective of here, England is really no less foreign than any other part of western Europe aside from language. Much of the population here is descended from immigrants from continental Europe who learnt English as Americans not as Anglo-Saxons, and thus really absorbed practically no actual English culture despite their speaking English and things related to such (such as common literature and media). Hence there is little identification with terms like Anglo or Anglo-Saxon and little feeling of any real sort of affinity with England compared to the rest of western Europe here.
As for the Anglosphere, the concept of such seems more applicable from a cultural standpoint to some parts of the US than others. Such seems applicable to much of the eastern US, particularly New England and the coastal South, as such actually had historical cultural contact with England itself and continuing affinities with England long after (to the point that the upper classes in the Northeast often modelled themselves after their English counterparts until the end of WW2). At the same time, in areas like here in the Midwest the population really seems to have no more cultural affinity with England than, say, Afrikaners, having a common language aside. Hence the idea of a cultural Anglosphere really does not seem applicable here unless one really wants to stretch things. From the perspective here the notion of an Anglosphere beyond having a shared language, literature, and media seems to be primarily political in nature, which in the end feels somewhat empty and artificial.
That's true; if we defined "Anglophony" in the same way they define "Francophony", then it would include India and Britain's former African colonies.
One thing, however : /lafʁɑ̃kofoni/ = /lafRÃkofoni/ is either written <la francophonie> or <la Francophonie>. The first one is a geolinguistic concept : the set of people able to speak French, natively or not → francophonie maternelle, francophonie non-maternelle. The second one is a political entity based on the first one, though not restricted to it : l'Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, including countries such as Albania, Armenia, Austria, Bulgaria, Cape Verde, Egypt, Georgia, Ghana, Greece, Hungary, Moçambique, Poland, Serbia, Slovenia, Ukraine etc.
Well since is the first time I have read this particular topic I will tell you about my background.
my mom:
Brazilian (this being a broad term that could include many different things primarily being Portuguese, Moroccan, and German but there could be others because folks honestly... she is Brazilian.)
my dad:
German-Canadian
Panamanian of Italian decent (meaning his mom was raised in Panama but her parents immigrated from Italy a very long time ago).
on terms of race:
I do not like to label myself racially because I look very ethnic (I'll post a new photo soon). To united states standards my characteristics would exclude me out of the white column since most typical Northern European stereotypically Caucasian people look at ethnicity or the ethnic look being something exotic or other than White. I get asked so many times Where are you from? In the back of my head thinking Oh, your obviously not American you just look too ethnic. It changes where they think I am from very often especially now since I lost 75 pounds. When I was fat they always thought I was Polynesian or Hawaiian now it seems to be Turkish?? Middle Eastern?? Afghanistani?? (yes I was recently mistaken for an exchange student from that country). Ahhh....American Ignorant bliss.........
Hey, what part of Brazil? My great-grandmother was born on a coffee plantation near Sao Paolo. Of course, she was completely Azorean, as is the rest of my dad's family, and moved back to the Azores as a child, and then on to Massachusetts right after WWI.
Even though I'm half Portuguese, I got all the recessive genes, and so I look very white, and not ethnic at all -- when people hear my last name they look for a ring. Nope, it's mine, guys.....
Congratulations on the weight loss -- that's pretty impressive. Even if now you can't play "Kiss Me, I'm Samoan" on St. Paddy's day. _________________ An apple a day....
Well from what I no about my mom's side which I must is very complicated. Both her parents were also born in the South of Brazil near Florianopolis in the state of Santa Catarina. I also have family in the Rio Grande de Sul state some live in Porto Alegre most on the borber with Uruguay. My mom's grandfathers family is of Azoran and Medeiran decent my mom's mother is much more tricky and would be a topic in itself. I understand the feeling of not looking like the family around you. My father is very caucasian looking and mother is in the other spectrum even darker than I am. All of my fathers family has your typical northern European look and I mean everybody. Part of my mothers family and my two oldest sisters also would pass for white. Usually when I am with them people they know usually assume I'm there boyfriend or something yuck! When it is revealed I'm their full blooded brother the strange looks proceed until we reveal who are mother is and father is and get an oh....ok. This was repeated time and time again when I first met both of my sisters in laws. They both married white guys and their families couldn't get over on that on how ethnic I looked. They both have kids now and all my neices and nephews have definately lost all their ethnicity. It feels weird the way that I am and having a bunch of blond hair and blue eyed neices and nephews.
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As far as I'm concerned, to suggest that Ireland would not be part of the 'Anglosphere' is ridiculous.
yuck! When it is revealed I'm their full blooded brother the strange looks proceed until we reveal who are mother is and father is and get an oh....ok. This was repeated time and time again when I first met both of my sisters in laws. They both married white guys and their families couldn't get over on that on how ethnic I looked. They both have kids now and all my neices and nephews have definately lost all their ethnicity. It feels weird the way that I am and having a bunch of blond hair and blue eyed neices and nephews.