I am just a little annoyed with Northern Chinese at times. Mandarin might be the official language of China, but some efforts to speak the native patois would go a long way with the locals.
I don't know about that. When I'm in the South or in New England, I don't try to fake a southern drawl or drop my R's Massachusetts-style, or start sprinkling my speech with "I'm fixin' to" or "wicked". I think it's better to be myself and not a poor parody of someone else.
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And don't you love how they have the cojones to dress up like that even after they've long since lost that girlish figure?
Or never had it -- if you don't have the figure, please, for everyone's sake, including yours, don't wear anything skintight, honey; it just makes you look like a pack of hot dogs....
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Love the new look, by the way. It's so... um, you. (kidding!)
I was feeling a little stinky... Just kidding -- I thought I'd do local wildlife for a while. Jazz up my image a little until I can get a new pic.
Yes, but in written form, Scots looks just like English with poor spelling. It's almost fully intelligable for you and I.
Well, this is because Scots used the principles of English spellings to write the Scots language except for a few things: the combined vowels for examples are written differently from English for the simple reason that they represent the vowel sounds that do not exist in English. For example 'aa', 'ai', 'ei', 'ui' 'oo'. These vowels are pronounced differently from English vowels.
If you wrote Frisian with English spellings then you would probably recognise some words. But would you say that Frisian is a dialect of English?
Scots and English both descended from Anglo-Saxon but Old Scots was spoken by the Inglis settlers not only in the Lowlands but also in the North-East (where present-day Doric dialect of Scots is incomprehensible both in writing and speaking to the standard English ears).
This is the Doric dialect of Scots: Seein aat yer forfochen an hiv tint yer maunie laat me maak denner fur ye bit ye maun eat aw tha or aal skelp yer heid ben the hoos - ye dinna greet wi eens wi me!
This is the Lallans dialect of Scots: Seein that yer sae tiret an hae tint yer monie let me mak denner for ye bit ye maun eat aw that or a'l skelp yer heid in the hoose - ye dinnae greet wi eens wi me!
Benjamin: That is because we are very much a 'model minority'. Besides, we are too small in numbers to pose any conceivable threat to the indigeneous majority. We can also assimilate very well, in fact. How many Arab immigrants have a Christian name after settling in Western societies? Oh yes, Zinedine Zidane's sons, of course. I think one of them is called Enzo.
I was once watching an "Envoye Special' programme on TV5 Monde and they did a research on the Chinese community in Paris. They entered the house of a Chinese household and everyone could speak French. The parents spoke French with an accent, though. Their little girl spoke French like a native. What is curious, though, is that the parents spoke to their daughter in Teochew while she replied only in French. It's a little strange.
I have a friend who is studying engineering in France at this moment - at Nancy, to be exact. He told me that he experienced a culture shock in Paris when the Chinese shopkeepers he approached addressed him in French. To him, it is a most peculiar situation.
I remembered once speaking to a Chinese grocer in New Zealand. I addressed him in Mandarin and was mildly chastised when he answered me in a most Kiwi accent that he couldn't understand me at all!
Uriel: This is not just a question about mere accents, but another speech altogether. When I speak Mandarin, I do not roll my r's like the Northerners nor add an annoying -er to the very end of my sentence like the natives of Beijing do. Mandarin as spoken by the North has a very sing-song melodic lilt to it. When I try to speak like that, it is exhausting. It's the same when I try to speak with an RP accent in English. It is damn tiring.
Daniel: You are really knowledgeable about various forms of Scots. Any idea what Auld Lang Syne actually means?
Fab & Greg: I was watching French news today and they were talking about a skin whitening cream that has entered the market in France that is specifically targetted at the Africans. Is it true? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Fab & Greg: I was watching French news today and they were talking about a skin whitening cream that has entered the market in France that is specifically targetted at the Africans. Is it true?
It is possible, I know such a cream is widely used in Africa since a lot of time. I tend to think it is a fashion, what is funny is that most white people tend to go in the sun to get a more strong tan as possible, and in the same time black people use "whitening" creams... We all be mulato soon.
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I was once watching an "Envoye Special' programme on TV5 Monde and they did a research on the Chinese community in Paris. They entered the house of a Chinese household and everyone could speak French. The parents spoke French with an accent, though. Their little girl spoke French like a native. What is curious, though, is that the parents spoke to their daughter in Teochew while she replied only in French. It's a little strange.
Yes, that's what happens with the first generation born in France, their first language is generally French, they could understand their family but not really are able to speak their parents language well.
Actually, in the Asian restaurant I use to go the parents speak always in Vietnamese and the girl anwser to them only in French.
It is the same with my colombian neighbours.
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Their little girl spoke French like a native
She may probably be native french speaker.
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How many Arab immigrants have a Christian name after settling in Western societies
Very few. and that's a difference with people of Asian origins, who, if they are born in France have generally a French name.
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He told me that he experienced a culture shock in Paris when the Chinese shopkeepers he approached addressed him in French. To him, it is a most peculiar situation.
Yes, it is normal, being Asian looking in France is not an unusual think, people won't think you don't speak french just because you look Asian. And inversely the huge majority of people with Asian look don't speak a word of any asian language. So in Paris when meeting someone, whatever his color or look we would think firstly that the person is French.
Fab & Greg: I was watching French news today and they were talking about a skin whitening cream that has entered the market in France that is specifically targetted at the Africans. Is it true?
Oui, c'est malheureusement vrai. I said unfortunately not because people want their skins clearer, rather because this cream is carcinogenic although product tags issued by cream makers inavariably read (even swear) it isn't.
Daniel: You are really knowledgeable about various forms of Scots. Any idea what Auld Lang Syne actually means?
Difficult to translate as it is an idiomatic expression in Scots but in the literal sense it means "Old Long Since" and means roughly "A long time ago (since)".
Just for a little cross-North Sea-ish comparison which might shed some light on the issue:
Norwegian "lenge siden" ("lenge si´" in colloquial speech) = long since = long time ago
Norwegian "old-" (Pronounced /old/, just like "auld", I guess) = ancient (e.g. oldsaker = ancient things = archeological remains)[/i] _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Hmm...Old Long Since. That makes sense. Now I wonder what the hell I am singing come this year's new year eve bash.
Anyway, after such a long spell of animated debates regarding the identity of France, what is your conclusion? Is France a Northern or Southern European country?
I'd say, mostly Southern. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Hmm...Old Long Since. That makes sense. Now I wonder what the hell I am singing come this year's new year eve bash.
Anyway, after such a long spell of animated debates regarding the identity of France, what is your conclusion? Is France a Northern or Southern European country?
I'd say, mostly Southern.
That was long?? Are you kidding????? We had several of those debates on antimoon, and they extended for over 20 web pages! Everyone has learned to be very delicate when speaking of this issue, because Fab and Greg are particularly sensitive to any viewpoint which does not fit that of their own on this issue. It is difficult to say. So, I will break it up.
Linguistically - southern European
Geographically - in between north and south, with some parts clearly in the south, such as Provence
Culturally - southern European, although maybe less so than some other obvious mediterranean countries _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Everyone has learned to be very delicate when speaking of this issue, because Fab and Greg are particularly sensitive to any viewpoint which does not fit that of their own on this issue.
I don't know for fab, but the only thing I hold for certain is that France is a Western European country — even the heart of Western Europe. If Northern is to mean Scotland or Estonia primarily, then France isn't in the North. If Southern is to mean Andalucia or Greece primarily, then France isn't in the South. As you see, this is une réponse de Normand — which basically means I have no viewpoint regarding North-South.
France, *as a whole* (a composite of everything from Nice to Calais), is definitely not as "southern" culturally or geographically as Sicily or Andalucia, but, for the most part, it is culturally and geographically more southern than England or Holland, for sure. And, it is a Latin country. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I also see France as being closely related to Belgium and Luxembourg -- which are definitely in Northern Europe. And Switzerland. And Germany, through the Alsace-Lorraine. Nobody's addressed that relationship yet, though -- everyone keeps focusing on Spain and Italy.
But I never thought of Northern Europe as a single homogenous entity, either, you know -- I would divide it up into Scandinavia as a region unto itself, Germany and Austria and Switzerland, the Low Countries, the British Isles off by themselves, and -- sorry -- France. Many of these countries bleed into their neighbors at the edges by reason of shared languages or groups (Switzerland has four languages, Belgium two, France and Spain share the Basques, things like that), so even these regional groupings aren't completely without some ambiguity. But nothing's ever cut and dried, is it?
If I remember correctly, Greg is Parisien by way of Marseille.
Une réponse de Normand is an idiomatic expression meaning "an ambiguous or evasive answer" (faire des réponses de Normand à qn is roughly equivalent to giving someone the runaround.) I don't know how this expression came about. Perhaps people from Normandy are known for being vague.
Linguistically - southern European
Geographically - in between north and south, with some parts clearly in the south, such as Provence
Culturally - southern European, although maybe less so than some other obvious mediterranean countries
Josh, this the way I see things. Excepted that I see only the northern half as being geographically in-between.
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Perhaps people from Normandy are known for being vague.
Yes, the tipical normand answer to every question would be :
"p'tet ben qu'oui, p'tet ben qu'non"
(peut-être bien que oui, peut être bien que non / maybe yes, maybe no )
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also see France as being closely related to Belgium and Luxembourg -- which are definitely in Northern Europe. And Switzerland. And Germany, through the Alsace-Lorraine. Nobody's addressed that relationship yet, though -- everyone keeps focusing on Spain and Italy.
France is not closely related to all Belgium as a whole, but to french speaking parts for linguistic links (that's funny you say this because I thought that most anglophones didn't linked countries with linguistic links, because they thougt that it wasn't important...).
The majority of the Belgium population is actually Flemish, wallons are minoritary. What give a french speaking impression in belgium is that the capital is majoritary french-speaking. Belgium share northern European characteristics such as architecture, beer culture, etc. The same could be said for Luxembourg, where French is just one of the languages, with German and the local german dialect.
As for the relation with switzerland, It can hardly be considered as geographically northern European country; France has links with the neihbouring regions of Geneva and Vaud canton where french is spoken, but not much with the Allemanic parts (which reprensents about 60%). Not to forget that there is Ticino, the Italian switzerland. Switezralnd is clearly on the dividing line between northern and southern Europe.
The swiss character has been forged mainly by protestantism.
France been geographically at crossroads it is not suprising that its language influence exist in other borders areas such as Belgium or luxemburg, it also exist in mediterranean countries such as monaco, Andorra and in north Africa. Algiers ia a bilingual as Brussels.
For Alsace-lorraine, those regions are since centuries switching between the two countries, so they are having both German and French characteristics.
That's could be said also about some Italian regions such as Italian tyrol, which is having both Italian and Austrian influences (and where a lot of people speak German). Anyway, the neigbouring regions of Alsace-Loraine are of southern Germany, to me they are not northern European regions but central, in the same way than Austria and German switzerland.
Of course they are intermediary regions between northern and southern Europe, in my mind Belgium, Luxembourg, Alsace-lorraine, Switzerland, Italian Tyrol, etc. Not surprinsing that France (or Italy) share common points with them, as well as Netherlands or Germany would.
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But I never thought of Northern Europe as a single homogenous entity, either, you know
The same for me with southern Europe. In southern Europe you have mediterranean regions (Italian peninsula, Southern coast of France, southern and eastern coasts of Spain).
You have atlantic regions such as Portugal, northern Spain, Western France.
You have continental regions, such as in central France, central Spain and northern Italy. You have mountainous regions such as in Alps, massif central, pyrenees, sierra nevada, sierra de Guadarama etc.
Each of those zones have its own climate and the adapted architectural ambiance, which may seem different to the stereotypical image some of you seem to have of southern Europe brought by medias.
I remember having met a group of Americans in Madrid in February a few years ago at youth hostel, they talked to how much they were suprised that Spanish capital was as it was (it was minus 5 and covered by snow), they also thought the architectural ambiance, economic and social context was not what they seem to expect of a southern European capital.
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I don't know for fab, but the only thing I hold for certain is that France is a Western European country
Yes, even if it doesn't means much since the end of the cold war. geographically and culturally speaking (from Portugal to Norway... quite worlds appart!)
What is sure is that France is a European country, and as a European country it share things with other European countries, not only with "western" European countries.
On this subject we could speak also a long time of which countries are "western" or "eastern". Greece ? germany ? Austria ? Poland ?, etc.
that's funny you say this because I thought that most anglophones didn't linked countries with linguistic links, because they thougt that it wasn't important...
No, no.
If two countries speak the SAME language and they're right next door, it would be foolish to think they have nothing in common -- like France and Belgium, Germany and Austria, or the US and Canada.
If they speak the SAME language and they're far apart, the link is a little more tenuous, as for Australia and Ireland, or Portugal and Brazil.
If they speak DIFFERENT languages that just happen to come from the same linguistic family (e.g. Spanish and Romanian or English and Norwegian), then I'm not buying major cultural link based on that relationship. I think proximity starts to play more of a part in any similarities than simply having a few word roots in common that take a dictionary to puzzle out.
Uriel has explained that very well — I agree with her.
For me, the similarities between Scotland and Norway are not because English/Scots and Norwegian are Germanic languages, but because Scotland and Norway have a similar North Sea location. Likewise, the similarities between England (especially East Anglia) and the Netherlands (something which Fab has pointed out many times) is not because English and Dutch are Germanic languages, but because of a similar location, resulting in influence both ways, and perhaps a certain amount of coincidence.
If two countries speak the SAME language and they're right next door, it would be foolish to think they have nothing in common -- like France and Belgium, Germany and Austria, or the US and Canada.
Yes, or France with Monaco, Andorra, Val d'Aoste (french speaking region of Italy)... or Algeria (which is just over the sea). which obviously are not northern European, don't they ?
And in this case the most related country to Italy would be switzerland (a northern European country to American eyes) since it is right next door to Italy and it speaks the same language.
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If they speak the SAME language and they're far apart, the link is a little more tenuous, as for Australia and Ireland, or Portugal and Brazil.
of course, identities are made by history AND geography, both at the same time, interacting to each other. If a country speak the same language of another, it is not an arbitrary thing, but due to an historical subordination. It is very rare that the only thing that would have been heritated would be the language only.
This historico-cultural link doesn't help that geographical specificities and isolation gave a different evolution to both countries.
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If they speak DIFFERENT languages that just happen to come from the same linguistic family (e.g. Spanish and Romanian or English and Norwegian), then I'm not buying major cultural link based on that relationship.
In the case of France, we have as much geographical proximity with Spain, Italy, Monaco or Andorra than with Germany, Belgium, luxembourg or Switzerland.
(Spain/Andorra(700km of border) at south; Italy and Monaco (515 km) at south-east, Germany(450 km) at north-east and Belgium and Luxembourg at north border (620 km), Switzerland at east border (572 km).
The regions that borders those countries often have of course transborder relations with its neibouring countries:
Latin arch, a Euroregion grouping the mediterranean areas of italy, Spain and France:
with some of them (Spain, Italy, Monaco), added to the common borders we share similar languages, shores on the mediterranean sea, traditionally catholic based society, food traditions such as wine culture, specific dense urbanity, etc.
Uriel, If France (or other country) speak a romance language it is not for an arbitrary reason, but because the country have been situated under Roman conolisation for 5 centuries at a major croassroad of the empire. With language they brought other cultural traits (and even populations from other places of the empire). (but you're right to notice that it may be a bit difference for Romania, which have been in part re-Romanized long time after).
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I think proximity starts to play more of a part in any similarities than simply having a few word roots in common that take a dictionary to puzzle out.
I understand that English speakers may feel that way towards other Germanic languages, that's basically not the case for Romance languages.
I understand that English speakers may feel that way towards other Germanic languages, that's basically not the case for Romance languages
There's more to it than just that. Remember, we are Americans. There is only a very little connection between Britain and the U.S. There are so many differences between Mexico and Spain and Britain and the U.S., that one does not feel a sense of connection going any further beyond the language. The two countries I identify most with in Europe are Britain and Spain, because of the linguistic-cultural factor and the ancestral factor. But I certainly would not feel at home in Spain or Britain. They would feel like a completely foreign place to me. I identify most with Anglo-Canadians and Mexicans. Other than language, Britain has much more in common with northwestern Europe than it does the U.S. The shared connection between myself and Britons and Spaniards is very little as it is, so furthermore, I wouldn't feel a close relationship with the nations who share a similar culture with Britain and Spain, such as Portugal, Italy and France for Spain, or Ireland, the Netherlands, and Germany for Britain, at all.
I think proximity starts to play more of a part in any similarities than simply having a few word roots in common that take a dictionary to puzzle out.
I understand that English speakers may feel that way towards other Germanic languages, that's basically not the case for Romance languages.
Well to be honest, what does Germany really share with Jamaica, other than characteristics which can be attributed to 'The West' in its broadest sense?
Porthos wrote:
We're North Americans, not Europeans.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Some people like to see people from the United States as essentially just Northern Europeans who live on the other side of the Atlantic — I always feel that this is a mistake.
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Just kidding -- I thought I'd do local wildlife for a while. Jazz up my image a little until I can get a new pic.
