Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: In the Shadow of WWII
I suppose everyone has a personal anecdote to relate from WWII. It could be an oral tradition in your family. It could also be how the effects of the last Great War have influenced your perception of other races or countries. You could also write about characters from WWII whom you admire.
I was told that when Singapore fell in 1942, our family tried to board a ship to flee the so-called "Impregnable Fortress" (Churchill's words). We failed as we did not belong to the upper caste of the Asiatic community. One of my great-grandfathers was hauled away by the Japanese in the course of the Occupation for alleged resistance activities, something that was patently untrue. On my mother's side, they tried to conceal their Catholic religion as the Japanese were avowedly anti-Western and hence by default, anti-Christian.
If you were to ask a military historian about the worst military defeat ever suffered by the United Kingdom, he would not talk about the conquest of England by the Normans (the UK as an entity had yet to exist) nor would he also speak of the humiliating defeat suffered by the British at the hands of the Zulus. It would have to be the fall of Singapore - 220,000 British and Commonwealth troops fell to slightly over 100,000 Japanese soldiers.
The conquest of Malaya and Singapore reminded me of the Battle of France. Both countries fell in a month. In France, the only notable victory against Germans was chalked up under the watch of then Colonel de Gaulle when an armoured regiment manage to drive back the German advance to a certain village whose name eludes me for the moment.
In Malaya, the only notable victory happened when the Australian Division lured the Japanese onto a bridge and blowing them up as they were trooping merrily across it.
Otherwise, the British and Commonwealth troops were only good in beating a hasty retreat.
As WWII recedes from public memory, its significance is lessened with the passage of time. I am sure nobody here has personally experienced the travails of WWII. But you surely know somebody who has. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Many people speak of how cruel and inhumane Hiroshima and Nagasaki was. But my grandfather was scheduled to storm the beaches of the Japanese mainland, until the order came for the bombs to be dropped. Had he followed through with his previously determined mission, there was a very strong chance that he would die. Had that been the case, I would not exist today. Not only did the bombs save possibly hundreds of thousands of American lives, but it no doubt saved many hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives as well. More people were killed in other cities in Japan merely due to standard air raids. Imagine if that would have persisted for another year or two throughout Japan. By that time, nearly all of the cities would have been leveled, and the civilian death toll would have been many times higher than even the combined sum of the two atomic bombs. The Japanese were planning on fighting to the death, to the last man, woman, and child. They were training even women and children how to combat the American troops on the beaches with sticks! How many Japanese would have died in defense of their homeland? How many more kamikazes would there have been(in the form of small boats or bonzai charges)? I am willing to bet that in the long run, millions of Japanese lives were saved as a result of the decision to drop the bombs.
I still however, think that the bombs would not have been dropped on a German city, given the same situation. The fact is, America was racist against the "yellow Japs", and this influenced American leaders's decision. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
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One thing that I really admire about the Imperial Japanese Forces was the absence of the word 'surrender' in their dictionary. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Being Swedish I don't have many tales to tell. Fortunately, Sweden managed to keep out of the war. Both my grandparents did their service, one as a regular soldier and the other as a medic - he didn't want to carry a weapon. The former grandfather was in the Home Guard for a number of years after the war where he advanced to the rank of 1st Lieutenant, at least that's what my dad seems ro recall.
Did you know that Frida's (ABBA) father was a German soldier stationed in Norway?
I suppose that some of our neighbors think that Sweden was a sell-out, letting German soldiers on leave travel through Sweden and exporting iron ore to Germany. Some might say that Sweden wasn't really neutral, but more like "neutral". But I'm glad my country didn't get involved in the war.
200-300 Swedish volunteers served in the Waffen-SS, none of which I'm related to, fortunately. But I think there were even more Danes in said combat arm. It's tragic, but lost people can be found everywhere.
Well ... the Netherlands have been named the Poland of Western Europe, little foreigners know it but the German occupation was truly brutal.
Family stories include those of my grandfathers who remember the brutal and unannounced German invasion. Apparantly a close friend of my great grandfather saw how Dutch soldiers clubbed two German paratroopers to death when their transportplane crashed in a field.
During the liberation of my grandfathers city by the Canadians, a German corporal (drunk) killed 2 POWs with his Luger. When the Canadians found their bodies they were furious. When the Germans surrendered the town the Canadians took the corporal and drove a sherman tank over him on the towns marketsquare. My grandfathers brother saw it happen and said he 'd never seen hate more pure than in the eyes of the canadian soldier who draged the German infront of the tank.
When the Germans invaded Stavanger (first city taken by parachute troopers in history, I think) my grandfather was summoned to the Norwegian Army, which retired into the mountains. There was some shooting and some people died, I think, but they had to surrender at last. He was then interned in a POW camp, where his fiancé (my grandmother) visited him and brought him food untill he was released.
Later during the war his sister (my grand-aunt) was killed by a German driver, but apparently it was an obvious traffic accident.
A distant relative of my mother joined the Norwegian Nazi party. Of course the rest of the family cut him off. And my grandmother's brother, a sailor, was torpedoed in the Atlantic and died.
Otherwise it was just a period of illegal newspapers, radios hidden in the hayloft and hardships for those of my family that lived in the city. My farmer grandparents didn't suffer much and like many Norwegians they went on biking summer holidays during WW2, as there was no gas for leisure purposes.
On a more abstract level:
I heard that in Denmark the prime minister recently said that Denmark had failed during WW2, by falling to the Germans within hours. But they managed to save most of their Jews, by transporting them over to Sweden. (Most of Norway's Jews were deported to the concentration camps.) The intriguing question is of course: What is most worth? Brave resistance but unable to save the Jews or surrendering like cowards but saving the Jews in secret?
About Japan's no-surrender policy:
I have heard that Switzerland had planned the same tactic. Early on in the war the authorities sent out a radio message saying that there would be no surrender and that this was the final message no matter what would come. If the Germans came the Swiss were to blow up all bridges and retire into the Alps.
War is a bitch, but the collapse of France in a month was a complete debacle. At least we can conclude that the Germans made outstanding fighters. If war were a gentlemanly duel where numerical parity was maintained on both sides, the Germans would have reigned supreme.
This brings me to a figure whom I used to hero-worship: General Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox. My CO lionised him as well and used to disarm us with one of his many quotes when we were pleading for slacker training: The best form of welfare is 110% training or Sweat more in training, Bleed less in war, etc.
Sander, did your grandparents have their bikes niked? Did you also have any relatives who were interned by the Japanese in the former Dutch East Indies during WWII? I remembered you reserving special contempt for Soeharto (or Suharto according to modern spelling conventions) so I used to wonder if any of your family was caught up in that country. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Sander, did your grandparents have their bikes niked? Did you also have any relatives who were interned by the Japanese in the former Dutch East Indies during WWII? I remembered you reserving special contempt for Soeharto (or Suharto according to modern spelling conventions) so I used to wonder if any of your family was caught up in that country.
Yes, like all Dutch people their bikes were stolen ("confiscated") by the Germans. In fact, from 1944 onwards the Germans stole practically everything of worth in the Netherlands and sent in to Germany. At the end of the war there were only 45 churches who still had their bells, because the bells were stolen by the Germans to make tanks.
A great grand uncle was stationed in the Dutch East indies. He was later sent to a POW camp, and even latter he was forced to build bridges in Birma.
He always tolled us that even though we only see japs abusing whites in the movies, most deaths were among the malays.
When the Japanese surrendered he remembers that a cart full with fruit and rice was sent to the camp by the red cross or something and that the japanese destroyed it infront of them. He really hated the Japanese, I mean he REALLY hated them, he's always been disappointed Japan never thoroughly appologized to its victims.
War is a bitch, but the collapse of France in a month was a complete debacle. At least we can conclude that the Germans made outstanding fighters. If war were a gentlemanly duel where numerical parity was maintained on both sides, the Germans would have reigned supreme.
The Battle of France was a shame. France and Britain outnumbered Germany in both tanks, aircraft and even infantry. The French and British just were really, really stupid and never expected a push through the ardennes and still used tanks as infantry support rather than separate units.
War is a bitch, but the collapse of France in a month was a complete debacle. At least we can conclude that the Germans made outstanding fighters. If war were a gentlemanly duel where numerical parity was maintained on both sides, the Germans would have reigned supreme.
The Battle of France was a shame. France and Britain outnumbered Germany in both tanks, aircraft and even infantry. The French and British just were really, really stupid and never expected a push through the ardennes and still used tanks as infantry support rather than separate units.
I think it is truly pathetic that France surrendered so quickly, when supposedly, they were one of the 'great' powers of the world. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
Till today, I do not have a great liking for the Japanese. In fact, I try to a make a conscious decision not to buy Japanese products, if possible. Of course, we must make an exception for their cars and their Playstations. But I have never owned a Casio digital watch in my life.
I read that Dutch POWs in the East Indies did not receive plenty of sympathy when they went back home. "It was at least warm there," they were told. Their travails were forgotten. Or so I read.
The Japanese code of conduct during the war was appalling. They signed the Geneva convention and proceeded to blatantly flout every rule. Many of the Allied soldiers were sent to the border between Thailand and Burma to build the 'Death Railway'. If you ever find yourself in a province called Kanchanaburi, you should go take a look at it. It is still in working condition and trains apparently still run on it. There is even a museum erected on the spot to cash in on burgeoning tourist interest.
I suppose your great-uncle was pretty unfortunate to be sent to Burma. On the other hand, he is rather fortunate to have survived the ordeal. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
St. Andrew's Cathedrale turned into a CCP (Casualty Collection Point).
General AE Percival leading the senior officers to sign the surrender treaty.
Victorious Japanese troops marching through the city centre _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I read that Dutch POWs in the East Indies did not receive plenty of sympathy when they went back home. "It was at least warm there," they were told. Their travails were forgotten. Or so I read.
Yes that's true. The motherland was was in complete ruines, over 250,000 people had died and nothing of value remained. In the eyes of the Dutch living in the Netherlands the "Indos" should'nt complain, they'd only have stay in a camp for 2,5 years. How wrong they were.
Note that this behaviour is typically Dutch. It isn't socially accepted to talk about your personal hardships in the compagny of someone who (supposably) has it worse.
The Dutch in the South and East experienced the same as they didn't experienced the Hongerwinter.
Poland was the first target, unfortunately invaded from both sides: on 1st September from Germany and seventeen days later from the Soviet Union (officially called "the liberation of western Belarus and Ukraine"). Although some people mocked that it had taken only 30 days for the Germans to totally occupy Poland it wasn't really bad result considering what happened in the next months in other European countries (excluding GB). Moreover, we had to fight alone - to our great disappointment Great Britain and France didn't take military actions despite earlier agreements and war declaration on 3rd of September.
My grandfather took part in the September 39 campaign and then he joined "Armia Krajowa", ("Home Army"), the largest underground movement during WWII (more than 300 000 members) and spent 2 years fighting against Germans in the forests in terrible conditions what resulted in the subsequent stomach illness and death in 1947. His brother died in Auschwitz in 1942.
May 1945, for many Europeans the month of victory, was the beginning of Soviet domination in Poland and other eastern countries.
The outcome of war: 6 millions casualties (including 3 millions Polish Jews).
I remember I mentioned it on the former Langcafe, but what makes us really angry is media references to concentration camps as "Polish concentration camps". The irony and ingratitude of history together with ignorance of manipulated folk have transformed victims into oppressors. This prompted our authorities to turn to Unesco to change the official name of Ausschwitz concentration camp into "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau". Built and operated by NAZI GERMANS on the POLISH OCCUPIED TERRITORY.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject:
KSa wrote:
I remember I mentioned it on the former Langcafe, but what makes us really angry is media references to concentration camps as "Polish concentration camps".
Is that a frequent occurrence these days? I learned about the concentration camps in school in the early '60s, or maybe even the late '50s, and they were always referred to as Nazi concentration camps. I was actually surprised when I realized, later, that Auschwitz-Birkenau was in Poland. I'm not sure where I thought it was, and it must have been mentioned, but the Nazi part was what stuck in my mind.
I remember I mentioned it on the former Langcafe, but what makes us really angry is media references to concentration camps as "Polish concentration camps".
Is that a frequent occurrence these days? I learned about the concentration camps in school in the early '60s, or maybe even the late '50s, and they were always referred to as Nazi concentration camps. I was actually surprised when I realized, later, that Auschwitz-Birkenau was in Poland. I'm not sure where I thought it was, and it must have been mentioned, but the Nazi part was what stuck in my mind.
Yes: this is how it was in the '50s or '60s.
But recently in the European media it has become quite frequent to refer to concentration camps as "Polish", especially in January last year (60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau camp) when it was very common. A number of concentration and death camps were located in German-occupied Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno...
Poland lost rather quickly to the Germans in WWII, but they had a long and glorious resistance against the Tuetonic Knights of the Holy Roman Empire for centuries during the Middle Ages. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
I sympathised with Poland's plight at the eve of the war. I did read that the Polish army led a cavalry charge against the Nazi panzers. If that were true, it was really suicidal.
Is Aushwitz located in what was then part of Germany?
_________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
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