Interesting to consider the Anglophone ratio of the list. Perhaps I too would have been there if my English vocabulary had been larger, as I often experience that certain Anglophones have written a handful of posts while I have been busy looking up a single word!
Wow, I'm really surprised, Fredrik. Your English always comes across as superb and completely fluent -- I've never noticed a single error or deficiency in your vocabulary at all!.
Oh, thanks. But that's because I use the German - English web dictionary all the time. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
I would say I am equally fluid or more fluid in English, but when it comes to abstract vocabulary, my German is better, because the Danish-Norwegian words usually correspond very neatly with the German ones (of which they usually are direct translations), whereas the English ones are much harder for me, as they come from the Romance sphere.
BTW loic: How many languages do you actually speak and for which purposes do you actually use them? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Interesting question. To be perfectly honest, I only consider myself bilingual in English and Mandarin. According to my definition, I am ready to pick up the gauntlet when it comes to making a speech, participating in formal debates and moots or making medical inquiries. Obviously, I'd prefer the doctor to explain to me complicated and potentially life-threatening surgical invasions in English.
I only use Teochew and Malay as a 'kitchen tongue'. It is peculiar for me to speak Teochew in a formal setting such as the school. If I do speak Teochew in public, it is used to exclude others who do not know the language. If I do speak Malay, it is usually employed with the intention to ingratiate myself with a social group.
I can speak French, but I do not have the confidence to make a speech, participate in a formal debate and moot or make medical inquiries in the language. I cannot be witty in French and I notice that most jokes I try to crack in French always fall flat on my audiences. Nor am I able to make a spontaneous and sardonic comeback when verbally challenged in French. I sometimes help out my uncle when he has French-speaking tourists so I get to make mistakes and learn them, so to speak. He is a tour guide, by the way. Most French tourists who need a guide are invariably old and a little hard on hearing. It is a challenge to make myself understood at times.
As for Cantonese, Hainanese and Taiwanese, I can understand the speech better than I speak them. Cantonese is a marvellously complicated language: I always invite lots of mirth when I try to speak it. People'd be hooting in laughter and say that I've confused the tones or I've used the wrong sort of slang. It gets a little depressing and discouraging, I must say.
You may be wondering about the lexical similarities or differences amongst the various Chinese speeches. I'll give you an example. Here's how we'd say one, two, three in the Chinese dialects I know:
Mandarin - yi, er, san
Teochew - jit, noh, saa
Cantonese - yat, yee, sam
Hainanese - jiak, noh, taa
Taiwanese - jit, noh, saa
I do not know a single word of a Scandivanian tongue, with the possible exception of Tack! that I see in Ikea. But I sometimes wonder if Danish, Swedish and Norwegein are more alike than the various Chinese speech communities.
I'll throw back the same question to you, Fredrik: How many languages do you speak and under what circumstances do you use them? Do you adhere to the philosophy of your namesake Frederik IV by using Spanish with God, French with philosophes, Italian with women and German with your horses? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Wow, loic, you certainly are our most multilingual member!
Being bilingual in both the world languages of English and Chinese must be a great asset, carreer-wise!
Did you learn both English, Mandarin and Malay at home?
You are probably right about the Scandinavian languages being more similar than the different varities of Chinese, and the example you give confirms it. I have seen the Chinese speech community compared to the Germanic language community. If the situation between Cantonese and Mandarin is like Norwegian and German, i.e. you won't understand it without education, but then it's easy; then that seems correct.
Although my namesake Frederik IV was a bilingual Danish-Norwegian king (who spoke German to his courtiers and Danish to his horses), I think you had Emperor Charles V in mind.
I'm a long step away from being as multilingual as you and Keizer Karel. I am only truly fluent in Norwegian, orally in my southwestern dialect and literally in Danish-influenced Bokmål. (Though learning the other literary variety, Nynorsk, is compulsory in school and I have a fairly good grip on it. I don't use it often, but recently I have written two exams in Nynorsk.)
I have passive competence in Danish and Swedish and a fairly good command of English and German. (But, as mentioned, my abstract English is not that good. Did you notice my mistake in the post above; I used "fluid" instead of "fluent" about my English skills! )
English I use for international contacts (e.g. today i called the airline KLM and was forwarded to a (probably Indian) call centre where they spoke English), except for my contacts with Germans, with whom I can practize my German. (I plan to become a high school teacher of German, history and Norwegian).
My haltering comprehension of written French and Dutch is very negligible, but speaking of Dutch: You use the phrase "kitchen tongue", but I searched for it on Google, and in English it seems to be only some sort of kitchen equipment, not a linguistic expression. But Dutch has the expression "keukentaal", or often the phrase "huis-tuin-en-keukentaal" (= house, garden and kitchen language). Could Sander elaborate on what this exactly means? Perhaps it was here on Langcafé that we introduced this Dutch word into English? _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
My haltering comprehension of written French and Dutch is very negligible, but speaking of Dutch: You use the phrase "kitchen tongue", but I searched for it on Google, and in English it seems to be only some sort of kitchen equipment, not a linguistic expression. But Dutch has the expression "keukentaal", or often the phrase "huis-tuin-en-keukentaal" (= house, garden and kitchen language). Could Sander elaborate on what this exactly means? Perhaps it was here on Langcafé that we introduced this Dutch word into English?
My guess would be that refers to more informal language/slang. Afrikaans in its early years was mockingly referred to as a "kombuistaal" (kitchen language), meaning it was an inferior language meant only to be spoken at home. _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You use the phrase "kitchen tongue", but I searched for it on Google, and in English it seems to be only some sort of kitchen equipment, not a linguistic expression.
Kitchen tongs?
I hope you don't mind my pointing out a misuse (I think!) of a word:
Fredrik wrote:
My haltering comprehension of written French and Dutch is very negligible....
"Haltering" means putting a halter on something or somebody. This is a halter:
I figure the word you wanted was "halting", but maybe you meant something I didn't get.
Thanks, Deborah! I meant "halting", but as it was a Germanic word I didn't bother to check it in the dictionary.
And what poor animal do you put that strange halter on?
Aha, so that's kitchen tongs. The Google hits for "kitchen tongues" must be misspellings, then.
So "kombuis" is the Afrikaans word for "kitchen", andré? Where did that strange word come from and why did you abandon the lovely Dutch word "keuken"? As Dutch and Afrikaans" seem to be the only languages with a word for "kitchen tongue", then surely keuken/kombuis must be the epitome of them! (Sander is going to protest, I guess..... ) _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:28 am Post subject:
Fredrik wrote:
Thanks, Deborah! I meant "halting", but as it was a Germanic word I didn't bother to check it in the dictionary.
And what poor animal do you put that strange halter on?
Thanks, Deborah! I meant "halting", but as it was a Germanic word I didn't bother to check it in the dictionary.
And what poor animal do you put that strange halter on?
Aha, so that's kitchen tongs. The Google hits for "kitchen tongues" must be misspellings, then.
So "kombuis" is the Afrikaans word for "kitchen", andré? Where did that strange word come from and why did you abandon the lovely Dutch word "keuken"? As Dutch and Afrikaans" seem to be the only languages with a word for "kitchen tongue", then surely keuken/kombuis must be the epitome of them! (Sander is going to protest, I guess..... )
In 17th century Dutch, "keuken" was the word for a kitchen on land, "kombuis" the word for a kitchen on a ship... The Dutch settlers, having spent months on a ship before arriving in the Cape, had probably forgotten all about "keuken" by that time! The word doesn't exist at all in Afrikaans. _________________ Toe ek jonk was, het ek al die antwoorde geken. Nou verstaan ek nie eens die vrae nie.
I suppose a kitchen tongue is only spoken at home and rarely beyond the hearth. I did remember reading a history of Afrikaans and how it started off as a kitchen tongue before evolving into a language of prestige.
Actually, since we are in a multilinggual forum, I am flattered that you consider me multilinggual. But I must say that you have forgotten quite a number of other participants whose fluent command of national tongues come to mind. Greg has this unusual ability to bandy about in English, Spanish and German apart from this native tongue. The UN recognises only 5 official languages and Greg already knows 3 of them. In contrast, I only know two (I would not have the gall to use my French in the UN).
How did you know that the call centre which KLM forwarded your call to was in India? Was the accent really that peculiar? _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
I see, Elaine! I didn't recognize the halter without the horse.
That kombuis story is really funny, andré! I recognized the word, as a ship kitchen is called "bysse" in Norwegian.
I have done some research and although "keukentaal" doesn't appear in the Dutch dictionaries I checked, it gets lots of Google hits. German "Küchensprache" seems to be strictly gastronomical, but German has the expressions "Küchenlatein" for bad Latin. So "keukentaal" seems to be a true Batavism/Africanism that we have translated into English here on Langcafé!
loic:
Yes, there are several members who know several languages, but you seem to be the one that uses most languages in your local environment, even operating with a patois keukentaal!
I'm not sure about the call centre being in India, I just assumed, as the person sounded Asian. _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
And here's a perfect example of why we don't get the warm and fuzzies when we think of our germanic cousins:
"Silent Night" in Norwegian:
Glade jul, hellige jul!
Engler daler ned i skjul.
Hit de flyver med paradis-grønt,
hvor de ser hva for Gud er skjønt.
Lønnlig i blant oss de går.
Lønnlig i blant oss de går.
This would be titled "WTF?" in English!
I found an interesting site that translates "Silent Night" into about every language you've ever heard of (and a few that I hadn't):
Even the Frisian and Afrikaans versions were pure gibberish to me -- and they're supposed to be the closest to English!
The Frisian version:
Stille nacht, hillige nacht
kom yn glâns, kom mei macht;
nim oer de ieuwen yn dreamen ús mei,
doe't in Bern yn 'e earmoede lei
fan in skuldige wrâld,
fan in skuldige wrâld.
Upon the veldt around a braai:
Stille nag, heilige nag
Jesus kind lank verwag
Lig uit lig uit die Vader se ryk
word uit liefde aan mense gelyk
Loof die hemelse Kind !
Loof die hemelse Kind !
Around a big ol' wheel of smoked Gouda:
Stille nacht, Heilige nacht,
David's zoon lang verwacht.
Die miljoenen eens zaligen zal,
Wordt geboren in Bethlehems stal.
Hij, der schepselen heer,
Hij, der schepselen heer.
In the original German:
Stille Nacht! Heil'ge Nacht!
Alles schläft; einsam wacht
Nur das traute hoch heilige Paar.
Holder Knab' im lockigen Haar,
|: Schlafe in himmlischer Ruh! :|
And on a certain small island off the east coast of Greenland (ooh, forget it!)
Hljóða nótt, heilaga nótt.
Hvílir barn vært og rótt.
Betlehemsstjarnan með blikinu, skær,
boðar um jörðina tíðindin kær.
:,: Mikil er himinsins náð.:,:
I would have gone with "glad yule, hellish yule" at first glance.
All I can tell, from comparing lines, is that I think they've tweaked the lyrics in most cases -- they aren't quite the same from one language to the next.
Correct! (Or even "hallow yule", if we want to make it 100 % clear for Uriel that there is nothing hellish about it, because that would be helvetes in Norwegian. )
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
And here's a perfect example of why we don't get the warm and fuzzies when we think of our germanic cousins:
You don't know what you are missing, or rather now you'll know:
Glade jul, hellige jul! = Glad Yule, hallow Yule!
Engler daler ned i skjul. = Angels descend into hiding
Hit de flyver med paradis-grønt, = Here-to they fly with paradise-green
hvor de ser hva for Gud er skjønt. = where they see what for God is fair
Lønnlig i blant oss de går. = Secretly among us they go
Lønnlig i blant oss de går. = Secretly among us they go
Unlike you guys, we Norwegians (and Danes; as many Norwegian Christmas carols it came from/was imported via Denmark) understand the words, but not much more of that text. A famous topic of religious speculation for Norwegian children is: Where-to do the angels descend? (Perhaps Uriel's hellish guess was not that wild...?)
I liked the Frisian version real good:
Stille nacht, hillige nacht = Still night, hallow night
kom yn glâns, kom mei macht; = come in splendour, come with might
nim oer de ieuwen yn dreamen ús mei, = take over the ages in dreams us with (you)
doe't in Bern yn 'e earmoede lei = (to) where the Child in squalor lay
fan in skuldige wrâld, = for a guilty world
fan in skuldige wrâld. = for a guilty world
And the Icelandic is nice to:
Hljóða nótt, heilaga nótt. = Soundless night, hallow night
Hvílir barn vært og rótt. = (there) rests (a) child wary? and red
Betlehemsstjarnan með blikinu, skær, = the Bethlehem star with the winks, bright
boðar um jörðina tíðindin kær. = bids around the world tidings dear
:,: Mikil er himinsins náð.:,: = great is heaven's grace _________________ Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen. = Those who don't know foreign languages, know nothing of their own. (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
Glade jul, hellige jul! = Glad Yule, hallow Yule!
Engler daler ned i skjul. = Angels descend into hiding
Hit de flyver med paradis-grønt, = Here-to they fly with paradise-green
hvor de ser hva for Gud er skjønt. = where they see what for God is fair
Lønnlig i blant oss de går. = Secretly among us they go
Lønnlig i blant oss de går. = Secretly among us they go
Wow, it's actually really similar when you put it like that!
Hmm -- Helvetes ... Helvetica ... isn't that Switzerland?
You both definitely have an edge on me -- I barely see any cognates that I can get a hold on. Of course, since the lyrics are nothing at all like the English lyrics, I don't even have the luxury of being able to compare words side-by-side ... unfair!
Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
'Round yon virgin, mother and child
Holy infant, so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace.
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