Very interesting to see how very distantly related languages can share features.
In Norwegian we have tones (two in our case), just like many African and Asian languages. But tonal languages are very uncommon in Europe, only found in Norwegian, Swedish, Scottish Gaelic, Lithuanian, Serbian, Croatian, and Limburgs.
The two tones often differentiates between words with different meanings:
tone 1 - fryser /'fryser/ = freezes
tone 2 - fryser /'fry-'ser/ = freezer
I have nothing against you but I think that you make a mistake, many european languages have this particularity:
Spanish with Tonic Accents:
está (to be, estar)
ésta (this one)...
Very interesting to see how very distantly related languages can share features.
In Norwegian we have tones (two in our case), just like many African and Asian languages. But tonal languages are very uncommon in Europe, only found in Norwegian, Swedish, Scottish Gaelic, Lithuanian, Serbian, Croatian, and Limburgs.
The two tones often differentiates between words with different meanings:
tone 1 - fryser /'fryser/ = freezes
tone 2 - fryser /'fry-'ser/ = freezer
I have nothing against you but I think that you make a mistake, many european languages have this particularity:
Spanish with Tonic Accents:
está (to be, estar)
ésta (this one)...
Also in Italian, Portuguese, or Occitan...
The examples you gave here, aren't they words with the stress put on different vowels?
The examples you gave here, aren't they words with the stress put on different vowels?
What are the differences between tones and "stress vowels"?
Stress is when you put stress on one of two or more syllables (if I remember correctly there's also something called secondary stress). Check out these two words in Swedish:
Anden - the [wild] duck
Anden - the spirit
The stress is put on the 'a' in both words, but the tone is different. Tone is more subtle than stress. If I said anden and anden to you, you probably wouldn't hear any difference (since you're not a native-speaker of Swedish, or a speaker of Swedish at all for that matter).
Think of tone as a musical note that can make subtle changes, and think of stress as BANG!!
The examples you gave here, aren't they words with the stress put on different vowels?
What are the differences between tones and "stress vowels"?
Stress is when you put stress on one of two or more syllables (if I remember correctly there's also something called secondary stress). Check out these two words in Swedish:
Anden - the [wild] duck
Anden - the spirit
The stress is put on the 'a' in both words, but the tone is different. Tone is more subtle than stress. If I said anden and anden to you, you probably wouldn't hear any difference (since you're not a native-speaker of Swedish, or a speaker of Swedish at all for that matter).
Think of tone as a musical note that can make subtle changes, and think of stress as BANG!!
This tone can also be known as pitch accent. A subtle change of the pitch can alter the meaning of the word. Non-native Swedish speakers find it hard to hear it since they're not attuned to this sort of thing. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
Hungarian is completely devoid of grammatical gender. What's more, there is no distinction of and he and she - the elegant and convenient umbrella term ő suffices. We use az when referring to inanimate (thus gender-neutral) beings, though. So, we have a hard time getting those gender pronouns right when speaking other languages.
Welsh has a different (from English at least) way of expressing possession. If you buy a new car, instead of saying I have a new car as you would in English, you'd say a new car is with me. When you have a headache, or are expressing the fact that you're feeling an emotion such as fear for example, you say there is a headache on me or there is fear on me instead of saying I'm afraid or I have a headache. One doesn't express it as though one is identified with the state, but that such a state is separate from you and that you are affected temporarily by it.
I was curious if there are other languages which have similar forms and which ones they are.
No, it isn't and I didn't say it was. However, what I wrote is still a peculiarity. _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
It isn't really accurate to say that English has 'no grammatical gender'. It has three grammatical genders — masculine, feminine and neuter, in the form of 'he', 'she', and 'it'. What Llatai probably means is that articles and adjectives do not change in English according to gender, and that inanimate objects are usually neuter, humans (except babies?) can only ever be either masculine or feminine, whilst other animals are masculine/feminine when the biological gender is known, but neuter when it isn't. However, there are some exceptions to this, and this is not the case in all dialects.
It isn't really accurate to say that English has 'no grammatical gender'. It has three grammatical genders — masculine, feminine and neuter, in the form of 'he', 'she', and 'it'. What Llatai probably means is that articles and adjectives do not change in English according to gender, and that inanimate objects are usually neuter, humans (except babies?) can only ever be either masculine or feminine, whilst other animals are masculine/feminine when the biological gender is known, but neuter when it isn't. However, there are some exceptions to this, and this is not the case in all dialects.
I've heard people frequently use "she" when referring to a ship. I've even heard men who refer to their cars (ie. "She's a real beauty"). _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
It isn't really accurate to say that English has 'no grammatical gender'.
That's true.
Daniel wrote:
I've heard people frequently use "she" when referring to a ship. I've even heard men who refer to their cars (ie. "She's a real beauty").
I find it funny when people refer to babies as "it". I've heard someone ask the newborn baby's parents: "Is it a he or a she?" _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
Welsh has a different (from English at least) way of expressing possession. If you buy a new car, instead of saying I have a new car as you would in English, you'd say a new car is with me. When you have a headache, or are expressing the fact that you're feeling an emotion such as fear for example, you say there is a headache on me or there is fear on me instead of saying I'm afraid or I have a headache. One doesn't express it as though one is identified with the state, but that such a state is separate from you and that you are affected temporarily by it.
I was curious if there are other languages which have similar forms and which ones they are.
The same in Scottish Gaelic (as well as the other two "forms" of Gaelic: Manx and Irish).
Also in Welsh, if the direct object of the verb happens to be a personal pronoun, it has to split and then wrap around the verb. That's not it. The initial consonant of the verb has to undergo mutation depending on the personal pronoun.
Maen nhw'n darllen y llyfr. - They read/are reading the book.
But: Maen nhw'n ei ddarllen e. - They read/are reading it.
Dw i'n ei gweld hi. - I see her.
Maen nhw'n fy nghlywed i. - They hear me.
Mae'r athro'n ein clywed ni. - The teacher hears us.
Scottish Gaelic basically has two verbs for "to be". A bit like Spanish, but Scottish Gaelic uses them in different ways. In addition, it uses different constructions to express sentences with the "to be" depending on whether the predicate is definite or indefinite or whether the subject is a noun or a personal pronoun. Complicated? Look:
1. Tha mi gu math. - I am fine. (lit. Am I [adv. art.] good)
2. Is mise Daniel. - I am Daniel. (lit. Am I Daniel)
3. Is mise an sgrěobhaiche. - I am the writer. (lit. Am I the writer)
4. 'S e dotair a tha annam. - I am a doctor. (lit. It is a doctor that is in me)
5. Chan e důthaich bheag a tha ann an Ruis. - Russia is not a small country. (lit. Not is a country small that is in the Russia)
6. Tha an t-acras orm. - I am hungry. (lit. There is the hunger on-me)
Notes on above:
1. The predicate is an adjective and (like Spanish "estar" it's a temporary state/condition) so the form "tha mi" is used.
2. The predicate is factual (and permanent) so "is mise" is used. (like Spanish "ser")
3. "An sgrěobhaiche" has the definite article "an" (=the) so "is mise" has to be used, regardless of whether the job is temporary or permanent.
4. Different construction: "'S e" is a form of the 'temporary state' to be verb. Because "dotair" is indefinite so this form must be used, regardless of whether it's temporary or permanent.
5. Although the temporary form of the verb is used in this type of construction, the subject is definite ("Ruis" has the definite article "an" in front).
6. Another different construction: this time "tha" form is used. Although, being hungry is a temporary state, the "tha" form is used to translate "there is" when the subject is incorporated with the preposition "air" (=on): ie. orm (on-me), ort (on-you), air (on-him), etc. to show temporary conditions! _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
I've heard people frequently use "she" when referring to a ship. I've even heard men who refer to their cars (ie. "She's a real beauty").
I find it funny when people refer to babies as "it". I've heard someone ask the newborn baby's parents: "Is it a he or a she?"
[/quote]
Yeah, quite amusing.
Actually, in my eyes, referring to babies as "it" is kind of disrespectful. I mean, I don't know. It's like we look down on them. :P
But then in my language, British Sign Language, we don't have any grammatical genders. We refer to everyone as "it" (well, not really "it": there is no translation).
It's funny, because Deaf people whose first language is BSL often mix "she" and "he" up because they're confused, even when referring to someone in their presence, where their physical genders are blindingly obvious. Even I do, sometimes.
For example, my male friend would be standing next to me and someone talking to me would ask something like "How's Jamie?" and I would accidentally say "Oh, she's fine. Oh, I mean... HE!" then I'd turn to Jamie and say "Sorry, Jamie..." but I'd get embarrassed for failing to distinguish "she" and "he". It's simply because the concept of gender just doesn't exist in BSL. _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
I refer to ships, countries and of course, cars as a "she". If you read motorcar magazines and pay attention to the description of the latest product line, you'd notice that the language evoked is necessarily one that is used to describe a woman.
Liz:
Well, that means there is prima facie evidence of me being interested in Hungarian. I'd never discount the impossibility of learning it as I am the sort who would make an effort to learn the local lingo when I am in a foreign land. Even if the lingo happens to be Hungarian with its impossible consonants and vowels. _________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
Well, that means there is prima facie evidence of me being interested in Hungarian.
Oh, I see...
Loic wrote:
I'd never discount the impossibility of learning it as I am the sort who would make an effort to learn the local lingo when I am in a foreign land. Even if the lingo happens to be Hungarian with its impossible consonants and vowels.
Impossible? They seem sort of simple to me. All the other sounds, which aren't present in Hungarian, *are* definitely impossible... _________________ Az alvástól megéhezem. Az evéstől elálmosodom. Az élet szép.
It isn't really accurate to say that English has 'no grammatical gender'. It has three grammatical genders — masculine, feminine and neuter, in the form of 'he', 'she', and 'it'. What Llatai probably means is that articles and adjectives do not change in English according to gender, and that inanimate objects are usually neuter, humans (except babies?) can only ever be either masculine or feminine, whilst other animals are masculine/feminine when the biological gender is known, but neuter when it isn't. However, there are some exceptions to this, and this is not the case in all dialects.
Thanks for the clarification Benjamin. Yeah, I meant that there's no gender ascribed for nouns, adjectives etc.
Liz, I only said that because I'd been referring to IE languages. Sorry for the confusion.
Hungarian is completely devoid of grammatical gender. What's more, there is no distinction of and he and she - the elegant and convenient umbrella term ő suffices. We use az when referring to inanimate (thus gender-neutral) beings, though. So, we have a hard time getting those gender pronouns right when speaking other languages.
It's a little similar in Basque.
There're not grammatical genders, no distinction of he and she, but distinction on the 3rd 'to be' (izan's 3rdPS) and 'to have' (ukan's 3rdPS) personal subjects
(HURA(izan)=HARK(ukan)= he, she, it)
see my article at:
http://langcafe2.myfreeforum.org/about338.html
A sentence:
affirmative form : subject + complement(s) + Verb + auxilliar.
Ex : Nik (I) merkatuan (at market) sei (six) zakur (dog) xuriak (whites)erosi (Bought) ditut (have).
In Basque you have usually periphrastic verbs i.e. you have one part of the verb that is the lexical part (the meaning) and one part with the inflected form - past, present, conditional etc.
Another thing you must remember - Basque language is an ergative language, putting it in a simpler way, it has no conventional (as in European languages and Semitic languages) passive. Thus - "The boy saw the dog" would be a little bit different - the dog would have the nominative (absolutive) case and the child the ergative case (involved).
An example from a basque learning site:
Mirenek Patxi ikus d-eza-ke
Miren-E Patxi-A see him-root-mod
'Miren can see Patxi'
Now, the verb is conjugated as I mentioned (the inflected part) in accordance with the ergative + absolutive + dative (if there is) + the verb root + plural (if there is) all in one package!!!!
The problem is the apparent inconsistancy that exists in the inflection: past and present have different roots and different prefexes and suffixes and infixes!!!
zuk guri lore bat ekarri d-i-gu-zu
you-E we-D flower one brought it-have-us-you
'you have brought us one flower'
zuk guri lore bat ekarri z-en-i-gu-n
you-E we-D flower one brought you-have-us-past
'you brought us one flower'
bildu (to store)
Type: Transitive
Perifrastic forms:
Present perfect
nik bildu dut
hik (m.) bildu duk
hik (f.) bildu dun
hark bildu du
guk bildu dugu
zuk bildu duzu
zuek bildu duzue
haiek bildu dute
Past perfect
nik bildu nuen
hik bildu huen
hark bildu zuen
guk bildu genuen
zuk bildu zenuen
zuek bildu zenuten
haiek bildu zuten
Present imperfect
nik biltzen dut
hik (m.) biltzen duk
hik (f.) biltzen dun
hark biltzen du
guk biltzen dugu
zuk biltzen duzu
zuek biltzen duzue
haiek biltzen dute
Past imperfect
nik biltzen nuen
hik biltzen huen
hark biltzen zuen
guk biltzen genuen
zuk biltzen zenuen
zuek biltzen zenuten
haiek biltzen zuten
Future
nik bilduko dut
hik (m.) bilduko duk
hik (f.) bilduko dun
hark bilduko du
guk bilduko dugu
zuk bilduko duzu
zuek bilduko duzue
haiek bilduko dute
I agree to say that most hard in Basque, it's the grammar, the pronunciation and the spelling are very simple besides, the words are spelled phonetically.
Another thing you must remember - Basque language is an ergative language, putting it in a simpler way, it has no conventional (as in European languages and Semitic languages) passive. Thus - "The boy saw the dog" would be a little bit different - the dog would have the nominative (absolutive) case and the child the ergative case (involved).
Tagalog has that feature since it, too, is an ergative language. Now, I love ergative languages.
Natutulog ka. = You sleep. (lit. Sleep you) [ma- * verbal prefix agreeing that the actor should be in the absolutive case since it's an intransitive verb + reduplicated syllable of root to convey present tense (tu-) + tulog (root) + absolutive pronoun]
Nakikita mo ang aso. = You see the dog. (lit. See you the dog) [ma- * agreeing that the direct object should in the ergative case since it's a transitive verb + reduplicated syllable of root to convey present tense (ki-) + kita (root) + ergative pronoun + absolutive marker + noun]
As you can see, there are two words for "you" in Tagalog (ka (absolutive) and mo (ergative)).
* The ma- verbal prefix changes to na- in certain conjugations. For example, when conveying the present tense, it changes to na- before reduplicating the initial syllable of the root. Most Indo-European languages conjugate their verbs by changing the endings but in Tagalog, the verbal conjugation is done initially instead of finally.
In Tagalog, there are the absolutive, the ergative and the oblique (for locations or directions). I think Basque only has two (absolutive and ergative).
But the strange thing is that not all Tagalog verbs take ma-. Some take maka-, others take one or two or even three of the over 200 different verbal affixes (prefixes, infixes, suffixes and circumfixes) depending on their/its relationship(s) with various elements in a sentence. Sometimes, the Tagalog verb can appear very long and agglutinative - in fact, all the information about the relationship is entirely incorporated within the verb only!
The Basque conjugation looks frightening... _________________ Zoriona tximelata bat bezalakoa da: bilatzen baduzu, hegaldatuko besterik ez da, baina gelditzen bazara, dator eta zure sorbaldan jartzen da.
Hmm....Tagalog is an Austronesian language, but the examples you gave are so radically different from her Austronesian cousins -viz Malay.
Daniel wrote:
Natutulog ka.
Malay: Anda tidur.
Daniel wrote:
Nakikita mo ang aso
Malay: Anda tengoh anjing.
Malay is far from being my native language. It is however my country's national language and I volunteered to study it for 1 year back in school (It is not compulsory to learn it and as such, most people don't know much about it). One peculiar aspect of Malay might be the t-v distinction it makes with the first person pronoun.
I (informal, intimate) = Aku
I (formal, slightly casual) = Saya (pronounced as 'sah-yer')
I (formal, standard) = Saya ('sah-yah')
Another peculiar aspect of Malay would be its fondness for assimilating foreign loan words and making them sound as indigeneous as possible. I think the Indonesians are especially talented in this and they have refined it into an art. Words like 'reformasi' or 'korrupsi' have percolated our vocabulary in the past decade thanks to the sloppy vigilance by the custodians of the Indonesian language.
I am also not sure if this would count as peculiar, but learners of Malay would often realise that there is a plethora of synonyms at their disposal, all of them being loan words. For example, if you wish to say, 'I am going to the office', you have the following options on hand:
Indonesian:
Saya/Aku pergi ke kantor (from Dutch kantoor).
Malay:
Saya/Aku pergi ke opis(from office)/pejabat (from Sanskrit).
My Malay teacher once told me than possibly less than 50 words in contemporary Malay today are derived from autochtonous sources. If this is true, this would make Malay one of the most bastardised tongues in the world.
_________________ Hillary Clinton is an acquired taste which I have clearly yet to acquire.
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All the other sounds, which aren't present in Hungarian, *are* definitely impossible... 
