No, definitely not. To us, we think of Switzerland as being first and foremost a German speaking country. Most Americans are probably not even aware of the existance of the francophone or Italian enclaves in Switzerland. Whenever somebody does a Swiss accent it is usually a German one and for us a typical Swiss last name would be something like "Zimmerman".
That's interesting, I wonder why is Belgium seen as more francophone... maybe because of Brussels. But Geneva is aslo a internationally worldwide french-swiss city (a lot of world orgnaisations are there).
I have remarqued that a lot of Americans tend to think that Germany and german-speaking cultures been more "alpine" country than "northern European/baltic". Actually when searching on wikipedia, Germany is grouped with Switezrland and Austria under the classification "alpine countries".
It is very strange since Italy and France, which are alpine countries also are not included, and while only a very small portion of pre-alps are lying on a small portion of the extreme south of Germany.
Is the "alpine thing" seen as something predominatly German-speaking in the US ?
I persnally tend to see the alps as a montain chain which lies more on the southern half of Europe, and which concerns central and southern Europe more than Germany.
In winter, in Antibes you often have a nice view of the white Alps over the sea.
Fab, to answer your question, when I think of Alpine Europe I think of places like Switzerland, Austria, and southern Germany, but definitely not Italy or France. In English, "alpine" has a terrestial/geographical, cultural, and ethnic connotation. So, we don't normally associate Italy and France with "Alpine" Europe, even though small areas within their borders are technically in the Alpine region. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
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Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:52 am Post subject:
Porthos wrote:
Fab, to answer your question, when I think of Alpine Europe I think of places like Switzerland, Austria, and southern Germany, but definitely not Italy or France. In English, "alpine" has a terrestial/geographical, cultural, and ethnic connotation. So, we don't normally associate Italy and France with "Alpine" Europe, even though small areas within their borders are technically in the Alpine region.
Since I was aware of France's and Italy's rather large portions of the Alps, I had to check a map or two or five. They all show France and Italy as having much larger areas of land designated as Alps than Germany has, which surprised me.
Almost none of Germany of Germany is in the alps. Actually, I was surprised to discover quite recently that there aren't really very many mountains in Germany at all, and that the countryside landscape looks almost exactly like England.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:55 am Post subject:
Benjamin wrote:
Almost none of Germany of Germany is in the alps. Actually, I was surprised to discover quite recently that there aren't really very many mountains in Germany at all, and that the countryside landscape looks almost exactly like England.
But the small bit of the Alps there is in Germany is beautiful and impressive.
Fab, to answer your question, when I think of Alpine Europe I think of places like Switzerland, Austria, and southern Germany, but definitely not Italy or France
This is really surprising for me that you associate the Alps almost only with German-speaking nations. Since Italy and France are, with Switzerland and Austria the main alpine countries. Why does the usage in English seem to have taken acount only of the northern side of the range... that's strange.
Basically the Alps were formed by the crash of the Italian tectonic with the mainland European one.
In Italy the regions concerned by the alps (Piemonte, Lombardia, Venetia, etc) are very densely populated and are the economic core of the country with such cities as Torino or Milano, (Venezia been very close to the alps too).
The dolomites regions should be really beautiful, I'd like to go there and then continue the trip to Vienna... maybe my next trip !
I'm now planning also to go to Italian switzerland just after Christmas.
In France the Alps concern two very populated regions of the south-east, "Rhone-Alpes" (Lyon, Grenoble), along the Italian border, and "Provence-Alpes-Cote-d'azur" (Marseille, Toulon, Nice), where the Alps finish in the sea.
On the other side the Alpine part of Germany is very very small, just some hills along the Austrian border.
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Almost none of Germany of Germany is in the alps. Actually, I was surprised to discover quite recently that there aren't really very many mountains in Germany at all, and that the countryside landscape looks almost exactly like England.
I actually always saw Germany as a quite "flat" land, contrary to Austria.
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I know the Alps run through several countries, but I rarely think of Germany when I think of the Alps. Switzerland, Italy, and then Austria come to mind first -- in about that order.
We could add Slovenia, almost half of it is covered by the Alps... And France of course.
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Since I was aware of France's and Italy's rather large portions of the Alps, I had to check a map or two or five. They all show France and Italy as having much larger areas of land designated as Alps than Germany has, which surprised me.
That's interesting, you seemed to expect Germany to have a lot of the Alps mountains on it ?
whith the discussion with people of other countries and cultures it is interesting to see that the mental maps of Europe they have are often quite distorted.
Last edited by fab on Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Well, we're not from there, fab, so we often have only a vague idea of where things are. You should see my mental map of Africa! Basically the Sahara ... and the rest of it.
Probably the reason why many Americans think first of German-speaking countries is because Italy, France, et al. did not feature in The Sound of Music..... ....but Austria did!
I will try to explain further Fab. I wasn't just speaking of the actual "Alps" themselves, but of the culture and ambiance that comes with it. When I think of Italy the first thing that comes to mind is the mediterranean, and not the freezing, snowy alps of the far north of Italy. When I think of France I think of Paris and the French riviera, moderate climate, vineyards etc. The alps don't come to mind. I associate the alps with German speaking, Central European regions, where people drink beer, play the accordion, and yodle. (I probably spelled the last word wrong, lol) _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
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I will try to explain further Fab. I wasn't just speaking of the actual "Alps" themselves, but of the culture and ambiance that comes with it.
Yes, but the reality is that there is much more than one "culture" in the Alpine area.
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When I think of Italy the first thing that comes to mind is the mediterranean, and not the freezing, snowy alps of the far north of Italy.
There are mountains in the far south of Italy, and in these mountains it is also freezing.
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When I think of France I think of Paris and the French riviera, moderate climate, vineyards etc. The alps don't come to mind.
The French riviera is precisely an Alpine region, it is what gave it it specific famous scenery, when the mountains meet the sea. The mediterranean climate change itself in mountainous with the altitude in very short distances. You can be under palm trees and one hour after being under the snow.
On another point, the Mont Blanc, the highest Alpine summit is presicely at french/Italian border.
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I associate the alps with German speaking, Central European regions, where people drink beer, play the accordion, and yodle. (I probably spelled the last word wrong, lol)
I understand what you meant, but as soon as we are here to exchange views about our countries and continents I think it is good to disolve the inacurates images.
As a European I take a pleasure to explain the realities of my continent.
I am from a "departement"(region) in France which is at once Alpine and mediterranean (Nice's region : its name is "Alpes maritimes"); those two notions that you seem to think to be in two complete different categories are actually mixed. The "cultural" image you associate with the Alps is the Austrian imaginary, it does exist in the northern part of the Alpine area only (but not in Germany since it is not Alpine).
on another way, the mediterranean climate is not something "tropical" were it is never cold, or not freezing. It is a quite mild and dry in summer climate but it can be cold, especially in the mountains. In the riviera, especially when you go far from the coast, it often freeze the moorning, and especially the higher you are.
The mountainous climates in Europe is more a mediterranean thing, or at least a south-central thing than a northern one. The whole mediterranean area is surrounded (with some exceptions) by mountains, Alps are one of these.
the alps in my region look like this, it is different from the Autrian Alps but as much alpine :
Last edited by fab on Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:00 am; edited 2 times in total
This might not mean anything to you, but just to give you an idea of the image in my brain, I will write whatever comes to mind about the Alpine region:
green forests, snowy winters, springs, beer jugs, women with hair in braided locks and traditional Austrian/Swiss garb, people with chestnut hair, small villages nestled in between hills and mountain slopes, meadows, valleys, chocolate shops, German pastries, German language, acordions, skiing, ricola cough drops, Swiss banks, Swiss army knives, fresh crisp mountain air, high altitudes, and Central European architecture.
These are basically all the things I associate with Switzerland and Austria. Culturally I tend to group southern Germany in with these countries, while I think of northern Germany more in terms of the Netherlands, Flanders, and England. Some of the things I mentioned are obviously outdated cliches, but these images have still left an imprint on my brain. _________________ Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Favorite languages = English/Spanish
Followed by Italian/French/Dutch
This might not mean anything to you, but just to give you an idea of the image in my brain, I will write whatever comes to mind about the Alpine region:
green forests, snowy winters, springs, beer jugs, women with hair in braided locks and traditional Austrian/Swiss garb, people with chestnut hair, small villages nestled in between hills and mountain slopes, meadows, valleys, chocolate shops, German pastries, German language, acordions, skiing, ricola cough drops, Swiss banks, Swiss army knives, fresh crisp mountain air, high altitudes, and Central European architecture
I understand what you meant, just that the term "Alpine" is, in my opinion very inapropriated to speak about that. "central European" would be much better, or "southern German/Austrian", etc.
This represent only the Germanic part of the alpine area, which doesn't represent the majority of the chain. Maybe it is the one that have been the most mediatised in your country. Also, only a part of Austria is in the Alps and almost 99% of southern Germany has nothing to do with the Alpine region. That's why I find the word "alpine" very inacurate when used that way.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:09 am Post subject:
fab wrote:
That's interesting, you seemed to expect Germany to have a lot of the Alps mountains on it ?
I knew that the Bavarian Alps were only in the south, but I hadn't realized they were only right along the border.
As I said earlier, they are beautiful and impressive.
The peaks aren't nearly as high as those in other parts of the Alps (they're under 3000 m / 10,000 ft), but since they start
at a lower altitutude, they still look like big mountains. More pictures of the Bavarian Alps.
I have to agree with Fab and Deborah that only the southernmost part of southern Germany belongs to the alpine region - which is really teeny - and therefore, it would be wrong to group the rest of southern Germany into this region.
Germany can be divided up into three regions:
the flat country of the north, the highlands in the middle and south, and the foothills of the alps in the very south (along with the alpine region).
Central Germany and Northern Germany don't differ much culturally. I live in (the south of) Central Germany and still most things in Bavaria seem alien to me!
By the way, when we in Germany think of the Alps, we tend to think of Austria and Switzerland first, then Italy and rarely of France. _________________ Jeder hat ein Recht auf meine Meinung!
although I've never been there, I expect Bavaria and southern Germany to be quite flat, or little bit hilly.
Munich seems to be lying in a endless plain
Even Austria is only partly concerned by mountains, vienna is in a wide plain too.
Contrary to Germany, Spain is a very mountainous country, with the second highest height average after switzerland. the Highest range of Spain are actually not the pyrenees in the north but the Sierra Nevada in Andalucia. As the name show it it is very snowy :
Heidi. That's the other reason I think of Switzerland first.
There was a German (I think) painter named Albert Bierstadt who came to the US in the 1800's and whose paintings of the Rockies were instrumental in getting the US gov't to designate the first National Park -- Yellowstone. The problem is, he was steeped in Romanticism and trained in the European school of nature painting, so the argument in art history clases was always that his paintings were well and good, and it's nice that they opened the door to formal nature preservation in this country, but the mountains in 'em always resembled the European Alps (complete with glacier-cut peaks a la the Matterhorn), rather than the unglaciated uplift mountains that form the North American Rockies!
(A little art history aside -- I actually argued in a paper that despite the superficial stylistic characteristics of his paintings, Bierstadt was not a true Romantic painter, because his style never changed throughout his working career -- I posited that he had been trained in that style and simply stuck to it because it sold well, rather than actually embracing the philosophy behind it. It was a strange argument because Bierstadt is generally thought of as being a quintessential Romanticist, but I played Devil's advocate well enough that my professor thought, Hmmm, but gave me an A anyway!)
I think that another reason why people tend to think of Switzerland first is because almost all of Switzerland is in the Alps, whilst France and Italy are much larger, so the Alps only constitute a fairly small percentage of those countries. Basically, when one thinks of Switzerland, one almost immediately thinks 'Alps'; but for France and Italy, one tends to think of other things first.
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:18 am Post subject:
Uriel wrote:
There was a German (I think) painter named Albert Bierstadt who came to the US in the 1800's and whose paintings of the Rockies were instrumental in getting the US gov't to designate the first National Park -- Yellowstone. The problem is, he was steeped in Romanticism and trained in the European school of nature painting, so the argument in art history clases was always that his paintings were well and good, and it's nice that they opened the door to formal nature preservation in this country, but the mountains in 'em always resembled the European Alps (complete with glacier-cut peaks a la the Matterhorn), rather than the unglaciated uplift mountains that form the North American Rockies!)
I remember when I first saw Bierstadt's painting of the American West. I didn't even associate them with European mountains, as I hadn't seen any of those yet. I just thought that Bierstadt must never have seen the Rockies and had painted them from his imagination.
No, he actually went out west and had first-hand knowledge of his subject material. But he composed and painted his paintings in a studio later, I believe, rather than en plein air.
The light is one of the first things I always notice in his work-- it's that transcendent light that just seems so contrived and artificial to me. (People still use it, so I can't just blame the period for that one). One of my art books mentioned that when artists began sending back paintings of the west and the southwest to eastern art establishments, easterners didn't believe the light in the paintings -- it looked too bright and garish to them, the shadows too stark, the clarity of distant objects too different from what they were used to. Western artists were accused of fictionalizing. It was only later that it became apparent that the atmospheric effects are quite different in the two parts of the country --but Bierstadt's paintings didn't help!
Granted there are strange atmospheric conditions and lighting effects that happen on mountains due to the high altitude -- alpenglow and things like that. Unfortunately, I'm borrowing my half-sister's Mac and can't figure out how to paste pictures, or i'd find someof Galen Rowell's wonderful photographs and post them here! (Gosh! Didn't we discuss him way back when, on the very first Langcafe? Antimoonbis?)
Location: San Francisco, Noord-Kalifornië, Noord-Amerika
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject:
Uriel wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm borrowing my half-sister's Mac and can't figure out how to paste pictures, or i'd find someof Galen Rowell's wonderful photographs and post them here! (Gosh! Didn't we discuss him way back when, on the very first Langcafe? Antimoonbis?)
Yes, we did. I posted a link and possibly a photo or two, or maybe someone else posted the photos. Here's the link, at least.
And to keep on topic, if you click on Fine Art Prints and then Other Wild Places, there's a picture of the Matterhorn. (It's sort of on topic -- it has to do with the Alps, if not the French Alps.) I think it's the only photo taken in Europe on that website.
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....but Austria did!
